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http://www.macnn.com/articles/01/08/05/aapltalk.posts/

AAPLTalk posts G4 Vs. PC shoot-out

updated 04:45 pm EDT, Sun August 5, 2001

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AAPLTalk.com has posted yet another Mac Vs. PC shoot-out, this time comparing Apple's 867 Mhz Power Mac G4 to comparably priced Wintel systems. The article asks "What does $2,500 really buy you in the desktop computer market these days?"

by MacNN Staff

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08/05, 06:02pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
Lessons learned

Get an Athlon and build your PC yourself.
Or get an PowerMac G4 from Apple

And NEVER buy a P4, until they get cheaper.

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08/05, 06:24pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
still lame

Sorry, but in order for it to be a fair comparison, you should get both the best Mac for $2500, and the best PC for $2500. In this case, he is not comparing the best Dell you can get for $2500.

In addition, it has been pointed out by others that he claims "screwdriver needed to take apart all the PCs", yet some of the systems use thumbscrews. He hasn't bothered to correct this, along with many other errors that have already been pointed out to him.

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08/05, 06:28pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
Get an Apple Macintosh

or get a crappy, overpriced Windows-based computer.

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08/05, 06:34pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
*yawn*

So the Mac barely edges out a Dell - even when scored by an admittedly biased judge?? He even claims to have a financial interest in Apple...

and laughingly he gives 2points for OSX - as if it's out of beta already, lol.

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08/05, 06:34pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
make it fair

August 5, 2001, 3:36 PM Pacific, Dell.com home store.

Dell 8100 - $2,523.00

Pent. IV 1.8ghz
80 GB HD
GeForce 3 64MB (yes, GF3)
256 MB RAM
integrated sound, ethernet, USB
FireWire card

Why is it that the chart maker can't seem to choose the best parts available for $2500?

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08/05, 06:39pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
weighting is screwed up

"software included" is worth more points than processor speed? You're stuck with that processor, the included software is mostly junk. CPU speed should be worth triple or quadruple the points of software bundle.

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08/05, 06:41pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
poor journalism

MacNN does a discredit to the Mac industry by linking to this guy. At least try to link to an impartial test... this guy's are no better than the biased shite that ZDnet writes.

You aren't doing the mac any favors by publicizing such admittedly biased, OPENLY wrong comparisions.

A real journalist would correct errors if he were really interested in the truth. This person is just interested in propping up Apple, no matter what.

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08/05, 06:43pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
floppy

All systems get 0 points for a floppy drive, regardless of whether or not they have one? Even if you only use it occassionally, it's still nice to have in a pinch.

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08/05, 06:52pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
floppy

All systems get 0 points for a floppy drive, regardless of whether or not they have one? Even if you only use it occassionally, it's still nice to have in a pinch.

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08/05, 06:53pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
negative?

Some people might consider the fact that you need a screwdriver to open a computer a PLUS. Unlike the G4, where the open access makes it easy to steal components.

Note, I'm not serious. I'm just making the point that you can spin things anyway you want - and this guy is doing one h*** of a spin.

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08/05, 07:00pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
other OS

Each PC can also run NetBSD, OpenBSD, FreeBSD, Qnx, BeOS (not to mention multiple (more than Mac) versions of Linux) ... are you going to give them a point for each?

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08/05, 07:02pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
scoring

Dell (and probably Gateway, too) comes with Office. But you don't include it and give no points. Mac comes with NO office suite, not even a 'works' application, yet gets almost as many points for software?

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08/05, 07:03pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
wow

In related news, Toyota shareholders say "Toyota is better". Shocker!

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08/05, 07:21pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
Biased

Definitely biased because, after all, it's a Mac publication and they wouldn't score the PC higher.

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08/05, 07:21pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
Biased

Definitely biased because, after all, it's a Mac publication and they wouldn't score the PC higher.

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08/05, 08:41pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
Forget the $2500

Are you a Mac Fanatic? I am and I want everyone to have a Mac so I created a website so that gives everyone a great chance to get a New Mac!
Check it out : www.MacRaffle.com

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08/05, 08:47pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
macraffle.com

Macraffle.com has got to be illegal, in my state anyway.

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08/05, 08:49pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
macraffle.com

2500 tickets at $15 each = $37500. Even if the computer was worth $12000, where's the rest of the money going? Oh right, your pocket.

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08/05, 09:01pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
Disagree, Yet...

I disagree with the manner in which he allocates some of the points, but I agree with the bottom line: Macs are competitive with and in some cases better than PCs.

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08/05, 09:22pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
huh?

You can buy a PC with equivalent specs to the Mac listed for $700 less. How is that "competitive"?

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08/05, 10:48pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
Why complain?

Look, this guy is obviously a mac zealot like the rest of us... trying to make the point that Macs can be configured to have the same stuff as a PC for the same price. Give him a break. If you don't like what he wrote, spend 2 hours, make your own comparison, and post the link for everyone to see. Then 20 people can gripe about your site too!

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08/05, 11:05pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
huh?

You can buy a PC with equivalent specs to the Mac listed for $700 less. How is that "competitive"?

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08/05, 11:34pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
Greetings, all! :)

Hey all,

Glad to see I've managed to stir up yet another hornets nest...

OK, first off, I should note that I've made some corrections to the chart, based on the THOUGHTFUL and INTELLIGENT e-mail that some folks have sent me.

Main changes include:
--ADDED 1.5 pts. to Gateways score, since it turns out the Radeon card in it supports dual displays! (1 VGA, 1 DVI). Bravo for Gateway!

--ADDED 1 pt. to Apple for VGA because it turns out I was wrong about them not carrying any CRTs online--they do carry a very nice Mitsubishi 17" Diamond Plus, which cancels out my protest over this issue. It can be found in the Accessories/Displays section of the store.

--SUBTRACTED 0.5 pts. from Apple because I've been informed that the new G4s do NOT include the OS X developers CD! Bummer, but there ya go...

Regarding thumbscrews: My mistake. Not sure which are thumbscrew systems, but this doesn't change the fact that the G4s drop-down door STILL offers FAR easier access to ALL components. No screws whatsoever. ANY IT person--usually responsible for multiple systems--will appreciate this even more.

To the person who pointed out that the G4 makes it TOO easy to access components--it may interest you to know that the door includes a pop-out latch which allows any standard padlock to be added or removed easily.

Regarding my Mac bias--YES, I'm biased. I've stated so openly, clearly, and frankly. I am hiding nothing here. I own Apple stock. I use one daily. I have made an honest attempt to be as unbiased as possible given these facts. This is why I have included the "FULL OF BEANS" option at the bottom--if you think I'm full of it, feel free to subtract or add as many points as you wish. How much clearer can I be on this point???

Regarding "poor journalism"...I'm not a journalist, nor am I objective (see above). That's up to MacNN. I appreciate their posting of the link, but if they choose not to in the future that's up to them.

Regarding Office being included--no, it was not included with the Dell system I configured. Feel free to configure one with Office if you wish, and add whatever points you like, as long as you remove the appropriate points for whatever you had to give up for the price difference. I see that today Dell is offering a free CDRW upgrade which they didn't offer a few days ago (when I put this together), so today you may very well put together a better system than the G4. Knock yourself out. None of which changes the fact that the G4 is still a highly competitive system. ALL OF THIS IS REPEATEDLY STATED ON THE SITE.

No, the G4 does NOT include AppleWorks. I agree this is stupid. Please note that I *could* have dropped the Pro Speakers (1 pt.) in favor of AppleWorks (3 pts.) for only a $20 price difference--which would still come within my own $50 range tolerance, and would have added 2 net poin

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08/05, 11:46pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
Message cut off...

(continued from "Greetings" above...)

No, the G4 does NOT include AppleWorks. I agree this is stupid. Please note that I *could* have dropped the Pro Speakers (1 pt.) in favor of AppleWorks (3 pts.) for only a $20 price difference--which would still come within my own $50 range tolerance, and would have added 2 net points to Apples score. However, I didn't, since I *really* wanted to come as CLOSE to $2500 even as I could. Take that for what you will.

To the "huh?" guy ($700 cheaper system)...well, feel free to put together the exact same system from a major-brand boxmaker, with the same warranty, components, etc. for $1800. Then post the exact and complete stats here. If a single component or spec cannot be bought directly off the boxmakers online website, it has no connection with this comparison--if you're talking about putting together a box yourself, of COURSE you can do so cheaper. What of it? You could change your oil for the price of a few quarts of 10W-30 instead of paying Jiffy Lube $35 as well. What does that have to do with this comparison of major brand-name systems?

On the other hand, if you CAN get these exact same quality components/specs from one of the 6 companies listed, go for it and let me know so I can snap one up myself!! Sounds great!

Finally--to the "Why complain" poster--thanks for the support!

It's amazing how everyone loves to jump in and tell you how everything you're doing is wrong, but is rarely willing to do the same task "right" themselves.

G'nite all from your completely Mac-biased chartmaker :))

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08/06, 12:48am | report spam | close Reply | delete
um, it's still pointless

typical Mac-Apologist...

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08/06, 12:59am | report spam | close Reply | delete
Re: um, it's still point

Well then, please accept the offer the internet gives you to NOT click on a link.

Anyway, this kind of comparison will always be viewed as "pointless" because it tries to attribute quantitative measurements to qualitative things. Since you will score this yourself on your own personal biases and experiences, it is stupid to think that someone else knows better. This said, it is important to realize that some people really like to see this sort of thing. To the power user it doesn't seem like much but to the IT monkey in some business looking for big-name systems at a savings, it is very concise and useful information.

Long story short, if you don't want to read it, don't.

And my hat goes off to the author of the site for listening to the complaints and suggestions of the readers. It is always good to see flexibility and an attempt at objectivity in someone openly biased.

~/indigo

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08/06, 01:42am | report spam | close Reply | delete
pricing

To the "huh?" guy ($700 cheaper system)...well, feel free to put together the exact same system from a major-brand boxmaker, with the same warranty, components, etc. for $1800.

The great thing about the internet is anyone CAN go to Dell and see what they can get for $2500. If they read a bit, they'll see they can buy a LOT more computer for $2500 than you've shown on your site.

Alternatively, they can buy a similar computer for hundreds less.

The nice thing is, no matter how much you or I argue here, Dell.com is still on line, with an independently verifiable price that anyone can go look at and see for themselves.

I refer you, and other readers to the specs on the machine assembled at dell.com for $2500 earlier today, higher up in this thread.

Thank you.

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08/06, 01:50am | report spam | close Reply | delete
Who's not biased?

come on, who cares, buy what YOU like, spend more, or be cheap and
spend less...

all the warez you pirate off hotline will make up for your Apple purchase
anyways.....

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08/06, 01:56am | report spam | close Reply | delete
Athlon

Of course, if you wanted to be TRULY unbiased, why not compare the dual-Athlon machine you could buy for the price of the G4? Probably because a dual athlon will spank the G4, and costs less than a Pentium IV system.

But anyway, you're not in the business of comparing the best, you're in the business of comparing what makes Apple 'win'.

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08/06, 02:10am | report spam | close Reply | delete
Re: Athlon

Actually, you may have a point--my understanding is that the Athlon kicks major behind. I'd love to see a major brand-name Athlon system. Feel free to configure one--as long as it's completely done off of a major brand website (in addition to Apple, Dell, HP, Compaq, Sony, & Gateway, I'd also accept IBM or eMachines, although I think we can ALL agree that eMachines is complete c***, no?). Any other major brands? Toshiba is laptops only, I believe. Am I missing any?

Anyway, configure a brand-name Athlon system, including information for every field on the chart (just list "no" or whatever if one of them isn't applicable) and e-mail all the stats (including the URL to find that system at) to the addy on the site, and I'll be more than happy to take notice of it.

I don't think you guys quite get it: based on PURE PRICE, I wasn't expecting the G4 to win this time. And if you add in a +/- 5% election-style "margin of error", all 6 come out in a virtual dead heat.

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08/06, 10:47am | report spam | close Reply | delete
bottom line

Anything you want to list against a Mac is going to come out a loser, simply because it doesn't run the Mac OS.

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08/06, 04:03pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
Standards-based & TCO

Comparisons like this DO make sense if you believe at all in standards-based computing. We've gone past WinTel & Apple having their own "funny little" networking protocols. Everybody now sits on Ethernet/802.11b/IP. Everybody now runs _basically_ the same sorts of software like MS Office, Adobe products, EMAIL, and Browsers for 80-95% of their daily activities. If this wasn't the case, it really would be Apples(tm) and Oranges. It may be that only those who have run both and have done so extensively will understand my point about this. Secondly, the $2500 mark shows what you can carry out of a store today. It doesn't address the Total Cost of Ownership issue at all. Again, those who have not run on both platforms extensively are likely to discount this point. If you must run Windows because some application required for your life doesn't run on the Macintosh platform then there is little point in viewing price/performance comparisons. For the vast majority of us who actually could do all their day-to-day work on either platform if sufficiently enticed, these numbers (and continuing attempts to collect and compute these numbers) makes sense. Finally, the $2500 is the ante up to play. The total cost of ownership number is much more interesting--and I'm not sure anyone will argue that WinTel wins that bakeoff.

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08/06, 05:00pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
What's the big deal?

Boy, people get worked up about stuff like this.

The numbers are totall subjective, but the author never pretended otherwise, and from my biased veiwpoint they didn't look at all unreasonable (although I wouldn't have weighted software as heavily).

Other points: Of COURSE you can buy a decked-out PC for $150 if you put it together yourself or do piles of custom configuration. And the reason that this comparison is still valid is that most people don't. Everybody I know who owns a PC owns something resembling a brand-name PC, and every single business I know of only buys from these manufacturers. If that wasn't the case, Dell wouldn't be a multi-billion dollar company, would it?

If you think the guy's full of it, just don't read the comparison.

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AAPLTalk posts G4 Vs. PC shoot-out

updated 04:45 pm EDT, Sun August 5, 2001

Related Articles

Recent Articles

Lessons learned

still lame

Get an Apple Macintosh

*yawn*

make it fair

weighting is screwed up

poor journalism

floppy

floppy

negative?

other OS

scoring

wow

Biased

Biased

Forget the $2500

macraffle.com

macraffle.com

Disagree, Yet...

huh?

Why complain?

huh?

Greetings, all! :)

Message cut off...

um, it's still pointless

Re: um, it's still point

pricing

Who's not biased?

Athlon

Re: Athlon

bottom line

Standards-based & TCO

What's the big deal?

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