toggle

AAPL Stock: 423 ( 0 )

MacNN News

http://www.macnn.com/articles/01/06/12/infoworld:.apple/

InfoWorld: Apple Legal strong-arming

updated 11:45 am EDT, Tue June 12, 2001

", 0, 0);

InfoWorld has posted an article exploring the legal strong-arming tactics used by Apple Legal against the developers of alternative themes and theme tools for its operating system. "The only explanation seems to be that...somebody at Apple fears that the developers will create a better UI than Aqua."

by MacNN Staff

Post tools:

TAGS :

industry

toggle

Comments

0

Joined:

0

06/12, 11:51am | report spam | close Reply | delete
wrong

The only explanation is that Apple holds a patent regarding themes and intends to go after MS when they introduce XP themes.

Read all about it:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/39/17461.html

Horrible research from some amateur IT journalist.

0

Joined:

0

06/12, 11:56am | report spam | close Reply | delete
Apple sucks

They are behaving like complete butthairs. What right do they have to stop people from creating tools for the OS? Gimme a break. If Apple ever wonders why Microsoft walks all over them, take things like this and rub them in SJ's face. Apple screws itself and the people who use and love its computers so badly it's amazing they're still in business.

0

Joined:

0

06/12, 12:03pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
"Themes" aren't better

Don't be a complete knee-jerk idiot. If you get the facts, Apple isn't preventing or discouraging themes or theme tools.

For god's sake, Macnn has become worse than the washington post for not bothering to read/research the quotes it comments on.

0

Joined:

0

06/12, 12:14pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
how about now!

Create a better UI than Aqua ... Steve already did that with NeXTStep!

0

Joined:

0

06/12, 12:19pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
Kaleidoscope

Apple has yet to give Kaleidoscope any serious legal calls except that they couldn't have an Aqua Kaleidoscope theme on their website. But considering how many Kaleidoscope patterns have been made and the fact there are editors there, anyone is free to try their hands at it. What's more the third party Appearance Manager themes frequently had problems with highlight colors working well on applications, and sometimes those colors didn't work at all. One wonders if Apple's appearance manager detects a third party theme and disables the highlight color, or this is a bug remaining from the last beta that actually supported the themes. The highlight color being the select text color, and the color that appeared around menu items when selected. Apple should let go here, considering Windows people have been able to change their window appearance since Windows 3.1.

0

Joined:

0

06/12, 12:21pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
Re: "Themes" aren't be

Don't you guys get it? MacNN posts these kinds of links to controversial issues to provoke you to discuss it. First here, then often times it ends up spawning multiple threads about the same issue throughout their forums. It's a great way to generate ad views, so keep talking it up and they'll keep posting these links.

0

Joined:

0

06/12, 12:21pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
windos

Windows people have been able to change their window appearance
since Windows 3.1

So?

0

Joined:

0

06/12, 12:21pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
Kaleidoscope

Apple has yet to give Kaleidoscope any serious legal calls except that they couldn't have an Aqua Kaleidoscope theme on their website. But considering how many Kaleidoscope patterns have been made and the fact there are editors there, anyone is free to try their hands at it. What's more the third party Appearance Manager themes frequently had problems with highlight colors working well on applications, and sometimes those colors didn't work at all. One wonders if Apple's appearance manager detects a third party theme and disables the highlight color, or this is a bug remaining from the last beta that actually supported the themes. The highlight color being the select text color, and the color that appeared around menu items when selected. Apple should let go here, considering Windows people have been able to change their window appearance since Windows 3.1.

0

Joined:

0

06/12, 12:24pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
thoughts on themes...

I recall somewhere that Steve's Jobs' dismay with themes was on two counts:

1) That themes add an extra layer of complexity to the user interface, thereby adding to confusion and loss of ease-of-use and therefore elegance,

2) Potential for clumsy and/or ugly themes could also mar Mac OS elegance.

From what I can tell, Apple seems to be discouraging the use of THEIR OWN mechanisms for interface elements so they don't have to support theme developers and users. This is why they leave the Kaleidoscope folks alone. The sole exception is Aqua schemes, which apparently infringe on Apple intellectual property.

The idea that Apple is "afraid" to be out-themed is utterly rediculous in my opinion.

C.G.

0

Joined:

0

06/12, 12:29pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
Aqua bites..

"The only explanation seems to be that...somebody at Apple fears that the developers will create a better UI than Aqua."

Well gee.. that wouldn't be too hard!

0

Joined:

0

06/12, 12:35pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
Think different

but not too different.

0

Joined:

0

06/12, 12:46pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
Apple must protect tm

Apple has a legal responsibility to notify anyone that it feels may be infringing on its trademarks. If Apple is not able to demonstrate that it vigorously defends its trademarks in the public arena, it can lose them when tested in court. Apple doesn't want to stop themes or theme tools, or theme websites. It HAS to give legal notice to any website that puts any kind of potentionally trademark infringing material on its site. The chances of it actually spending the time and money to take Kaleidoscope et al. to court are exceedingly slim, but if, say, Microsoft went full-steam ahead and copied the Aqua UI in its entirety and Apple sues MS, Apple has to be able to demonstrate that it served legal notice to other potential infringers as well.

0

Joined:

0

06/12, 12:47pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
All Apple has...

The only Mac advantage is interface, anyone which didn't place this priority far above every other possible aspect of a computer would've switched to a more stable, faster, supports more apps, supports more/cheaper/faster hardware, etc., OS years ago. If people copy Apple's interface, then Apple has no advantage at all. If people slap their hacked up skins on the Mac OS, Apple's advantage is reduced.

This assumes that an interface is purely the skin, which ignores the behavior & consistency of the interface, which Apple has repeatedly shown that they do better than anyone else. The interface is more than a skin... unfortunately few recognize this.

0

Joined:

0

06/12, 12:47pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
simple really

Apple wishes to keep its os aqua/quarts look, but only until windows xp is released.
It is obvious that MS will copy the apple look if given a chance. Windows xp looks like a bad cartoon GUI "pc world", said that.
OS X is the first, really, 100% patented os from apple and they have to react to patent infringement immediately and severely. So, that when MS copies
(Notice its never if, with MS, its always a question of when. So sad.)
Any part of the Mac os x, apple will have a history of court deliberations in their favor.
Remember Steve already delt with the “sticky fingers” gates before.

0

Joined:

0

06/12, 12:48pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
There many reasons . . .

why Apple don't like Themes. For on thing, they do add a layer of complexity to the operating system. Worse, they tend to cause instability to the OS, particularly between other programs. How many issues on the MacFixIt web site involved Kalideoscope and another application? Most probably a lot. Moreover, theme cause confusion for new users just learning the OS, so themes tend to supported mainly by more experienced users. They KNOW the in and outs of their system so they are less confused about "this theme or that theme". While I don't totally support what Apple is doing, I understand "their method of madness" in their dislike of themes. And for some folks information, Apple Legal did lean more than a couple of times on Greg Landweber (the creator of Kalideoscope[Hoped I spelled that right]) before they just quit trying.

0

Joined:

0

06/12, 01:13pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
Oh, please..

This just isn't cool. Themes don't add any complexity to the OS, for a very simple reason: there's a default. Aqua is, and will probably continue to be, the default theme shipped with every Mac running OSX. Newbies will all get this theme, and can always change to it, so there's no danger of confusion. "Consistent" does not mean "identical."

Then, there's the issue of stability. Also invalid. A well-done theme engine is no more unstable than a hard-coded one.

Then, the bit about infringing on Apple's trademarks. Invalid in this case, because Apple is trying to stop all themeing, even themes for which it holds no trademark. It's true that Apple also cracks down on Aqua themes, but that's an entirely separate issue from those who wish to make OSX themeable.

Apple has no good reason to be doing this. Jobs may be deluded (since when is that any different from usual?), but that's not an excuse to strongarm one's own customers. Particularly since their claims are legally groundless anyway.

0

Joined:

0

06/12, 01:14pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
1984

It seems to me that Apple has developed the ideas of Big Brother. Why won't they let you change your system if you want. This sucks!!! They have no legal ground to stand on, and they should cease this activity. Windows users can do anything to their os that they want. Check out stardock.com and see for yourself. M$ sucks, yes they do, but it now seems that Apple is getting to big for its pants.

0

Joined:

0

06/12, 01:45pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
Good!

As a shareholder, I hope Apple sues anyone that affects the bottom line. As for MS and the hidding wessel Bill, I watched the "coming out" of XP so that I could be critical. What a "I want to be a Steve on stage" but should have went to finishing school (or at least finished college). It was a riot. The whole show looked like a poor "9th grade" stage act of MacWorld.

Go for it Apple.

0

Joined:

0

06/12, 01:48pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
My Mother is the Answer..

I think the reasoning behind it, if there is anything to get behind, is simple. My Mother. When she sees a Mac running a Theme, she thinks it's a completely different computer and then wants to know why hers doesn't look like that one. Ok, so she's no rocket scientist, but she is a longtime Mac buyer and a big demographic of Apple's market. Maybe they just want to keep themes out of the limelight for the users like my mom. God knows she'd be confused as h*** if she could change the look on her desktop. I currently have nightmares about her future transition to OS-X.

0

Joined:

0

06/12, 01:54pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
kaleidoscope

steve probably saw all the crappy horribly ugly themes you can download for kaleidoscope and didn't want that dung heap showing up in OS X... I don't blame him. Most kaleidoscope themes are really horrendous.

But then again, I should be able to make my computer look as crappy as I want to.

0

Joined:

0

06/12, 01:59pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
themes cross-patented

The themes patent is subject to the license and patent sharing agreement with Microsoft. However from a legal standpoint the patent still must be defended against others.

My own view of themes is that they're a pain in the butt, complicating support lines by making it more difficult to find out over the phone what the heck is happening on the user's customized computer. Is it even a mac? How do I tell?

0

Joined:

0

06/12, 02:01pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
Brand Image

The reasons for Apple's actions given here are good ones but I think there is one more: brand image. Apple is radically changing the look and feel of the mac and needs to be sure everyone identifies Aqua with the next-gen mac. Widely distributed themes now would dilute that message. I suspect that once Aqua look and feel is well established as being "mac" then they'll lighten up on third-party themes.

0

Joined:

0

06/12, 02:10pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
Missing the Point

I understand the idea of brand image, consistent message, and so on. All of that misses the point. They've been called "personal computers" for a reason -- I can modify it to suit my needs. I can add a stupid talking moose, I can put replace my hard drive icon with a picture of Homer Simpson, and I can put a picture of my cat on the desktop. This kind of nonsense is an integral part of my enjoyment in working with the machine. Apple's strong suit has always been appealing to the creative, weird, and silly side of people. Cutting off the creative options of the user offends just the kind of person who has been a long-time Apple user. Locking down the UI is like issuing a dress code in the art department.

0

Joined:

0

06/12, 02:38pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
Theme vs. UI

The theme and the UI are two entirely different beasts, so it's silly to argue that Apple is afraid someone could design a better UI simply by introducing a different theme.

Introducing a new OS, and teaching the existing user base how the new OS works is not a trivial matter. That process is complicated by muddying the water with a bunch of themes which do not significantly enhance User Interface.

If Apple want's to succeed long term, they need to be sure that current Mac users can transition from the old Mac OS to the New Mac OS. Why would Apple want a bunch of theme builders making it more difficult?

0

Joined:

0

06/12, 03:00pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
MacNN: The next Slashdork

'nuff said

"Netscape IS dead!"

0

Joined:

0

06/12, 03:08pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
Ummm...

It's not like there's some crazy nutjob running around installing themes on everyone's computer and making it "confusing" to them. I feel that I own a computer with an OS and I should have to right to change things as I see fit TO MY OWN COMPUTER. I'm not going to install themes here at work so everyone can come up to me and ask, "What's wrong with my computer" 87 times a day. I changed our screensaver once and everyone just about flipped out. I won't do that again ever.

0

Joined:

0

06/12, 03:11pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
Reverse Engineering?

How the h*** can you call that reverse engineering? All you do it modify a couple of pdf files (ok a lot of pdf files) and a couple of other plists and things. This is hardly reverse engineering. Any idiot can boot into 9 and start messing around with the pdf files in photoshop.

0

Joined:

0

06/12, 03:18pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
Re: Reverse Engineering?

Erm, pxm# resources? Heard of them? Any idiot indeed.

0

Joined:

0

06/12, 03:25pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
Newbies won't theme OSX.

The comment on brand image is correct - Apple wants to project an indiluted image of the new Macintosh experience until it has an established identity. I've built a few of these things and intend to build OSX overlays, but I really can't argue with Apple's stance on the marketing realities here. (that won't stop me, of course). The comment I disagree with is that newbies will get confused - first off, end-user skinning OSX is likely to be complicated enough that most users will never bother. Those that do will tend to be power users or at least swift enough to unapply what they've done. All Apple needs to do is issue a disclaimer stating that it will not support 'altered' OSX setups. Simple. As for stability - the applications that tend to react negatively with themes/schemes are those that bypass standard Appearance Manager routines anyways - unecessary in most cases and sloppy programming IMHO (Even Apple is guilty). And lastly, not all themes/schemes are poorly designed and confusing... there is some very compelling GUI work every bit as good as Apple's being created by independant developers - not all of Apple's ideas and designs are 100% original...

0

Joined:

0

06/12, 04:08pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
RE: Mother is the answer

I don't know what you're talking about!

Your mom likes working with my theme every night, with nary a complaint.

0

Joined:

0

06/12, 04:51pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
...somebody at Apple fear

Yeah Right.

Please paste the following 100 times in Simpletext, then use 'Speak selection' to drive the point home:

"The Visuals are just the surface of User Interface"

Judge_Fire

0

Joined:

0

06/12, 05:20pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
SLOW S X

It would be pretty damned hard not to do better with a GUI than the "special" (as in severely retarded) Aqua.

0

Joined:

0

06/12, 05:28pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
only 34 posts.

i was wondering how long it would take the comments to degrade into an 'aqua sux' vs 'aqua rox' debate. only 34 posts. not bad; next time, see if you can't get it down to something under 20, though -- that's one less page load i have to make before it turns to pure drivel.

put all the evidence together: apple pursues themers; apple has patents on theming; their are elements of themes not yet seen in OS X ... how much ya wanna bet that there's something in the works for 10.1?

0

Joined:

0

06/12, 05:49pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
Re: Themes aren't better

Agreed with many others: Aqua sux.

Anyhow:

Don't be a complete knee-jerk idiot. If you get the facts, Apple isn't preventing or discouraging themes or theme tools.

Actually, Apple IS discouraging theme tools. That was the specific problem it had with MacThings.

For god's sake, Macnn has become worse than the washington post for not bothering to read/research the quotes it comments on.

The Washington Post is the best newspaper in the world. An opinion, but not an unsubstantiated one: I have a BA in journalism. I dig it more than the NY Times.

FWIW, MacNN isn't the culprit here, if there is one. It would be InfoWorld.

0

Joined:

0

06/12, 05:49pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
only 34?

Yours is the 33rd, this is the 34th and does not "degrade into an 'aqua sux' vs 'aqua rox' debate".

0

Joined:

0

06/12, 05:55pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
only 34? (2)

What's wrong? Did MacNN forget to pay the licence fees on the patented technology of "causality"?

0

Joined:

0

06/12, 06:40pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
Ignorant quote...

That's an ignorant quote...

Can anyone explain why Apple's keeping off the market of Aqua clones has anything to do with anyone in THIS GREAT WIDE WORLD CREATING AN AQUA beater!????!

I am so f***ing tired of anti-Apple FUD!

InfoWorld, Morgan Stanley, etc... WTF is going on?

(Sorry for the cursing, but I've been reading this kind of c*** for the last 7 years that I've beena Mac user and of that time we've all had a break from the B.S. only for the briefest of time when Apple stock price was peaking...)

0

Joined:

0

06/12, 07:40pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
So much mis-information

First off:
It is not confusing when you use a theme. If you are inteligent enough to change or download or use a theme, and then get confused...change back.

Second:
If you consider a theme ugly, then don't use it.

Third:
It is Apple that is allowing the possibility of themes to be used. If they truly do not want themes, then get rid of the possibility of using them.

You guys make it sound like you are committed to using themes, that the machines will come loaded with them and that mass confusion will follow.

It is no different then it is now. If you don't like it, get confused, fear the ease of use will go a-miss or your machine will become ugly, then for god-sake, just don't use them.

BUT-- why prohibit the potential for them to exist for users that may want to use them. AND WHY DOESN"T APPLE REMOVE THE POSSIBILITY OF USINF THEM THEN??????

Because they will probably impliement the same idea we users are trying to do.
Consider us third-party shareware, freeware developers and then see if you want us to be squashed like MS squashes.

Apple single handedly killing Open-Source or the desire of me and others to work on even applications for OS X let alone GUI elements now!!!

0

Joined:

0

06/13, 02:10pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
hmm

apple s*ucks

0

Joined:

0

06/13, 02:37pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
Multi-User Environments

The argument that a user can simply revert back to a familiar Aqua theme break down if the user doesn't have permission or the knowledge to switch the theme back. Many of you are the only person using your machine... this is not true on college campuses. Imagine going into the writing lab full of Imacs... logging in... and the entire interface has been changed by someone with root access. Unless the admin is present you may be stuck with a non useable(maybe a jet black obsidian theme with a black background) interface until he/she returns.

That would suck...

And I think OsX is definately gonna be popular in homework labs.

0

Joined:

0

06/13, 11:32pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
MS and Apple share patent

It doesn't matter if Apple has a patent on themes. The deal they made in '97 included sharing of each company's patent portfolio.

That deal runs out in mid 2002 IIRC.

Show More Comments

Login Here

toggle

Network Headlines

06/19	Third-party replacement MacBook batteries...
06/19	Texas firm sues Apple over iPhone's...
06/19	First Look: Apple Airport Extreme with...
06/19	Parallels Desktop 8 for Mac updates...
06/19	Apple wins $30M iPad contract with...

Show All

06/19	Third-party replacement MacBook batteries...
06/19	Texas firm sues Apple over iPhone's...
06/19	First Look: Apple Airport Extreme with...
06/19	Apple TV 5.3 update adds HBO Go, Sky...
06/19	Dish gives up on Sprint merger attempt...

Show All

toggle

InfoWorld: Apple Legal strong-arming

updated 11:45 am EDT, Tue June 12, 2001

Related Articles

Recent Articles

wrong

Apple sucks

"Themes" aren't better

how about now!

Kaleidoscope

Re: "Themes" aren't be

windos

Kaleidoscope

thoughts on themes...

Aqua bites..

Think different

Apple must protect tm

All Apple has...

simple really

There many reasons . . .

Oh, please..

1984

Good!

My Mother is the Answer..

kaleidoscope

themes cross-patented

Brand Image

Missing the Point

Theme vs. UI

MacNN: The next Slashdork

Ummm...

Reverse Engineering?

Re: Reverse Engineering?

Newbies won't theme OSX.

RE: Mother is the answer

...somebody at Apple fear

SLOW S X

only 34 posts.

Re: Themes aren't better

only 34?

only 34? (2)

Ignorant quote...

So much mis-information

hmm

Multi-User Environments

MS and Apple share patent

Login Here

Register for our weekly email newsletter:

Connect tools:

Subscribe

to our RSS

Follow us

on Twitter

Most Read

10 Most Discussed

MacNN Marketplace