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http://www.macnn.com/articles/01/05/16/apple's.darwin:/

Apple's Darwin: Open source but not free

updated 02:20 pm EDT, Wed May 16, 2001

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ZDNet's Evan Leibovitch, who recently called Apple "open source's black hole" for its stance toward the open source community, now admits that the Open Source Initiative (OSI) has endorsed the Apple Public Source License, which it includes with its open source Darwin distribution, as an official open source license. However, the Free Software Foundation (FSF) retains its stance that the license is non-free, due to a clause that requires users to publish (and register with Apple) not only code that they change and redistribute, but code that is changed and only used internally.

by MacNN Staff

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05/16, 02:22pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
Free Software

Yeah, right. Just more confused socialism. Paying for stuff is good. It provides people with incentives to make more stuff. And how many of the people who complain about software not being free work for no pay themselves? If so, please tell me what you do. I would like my house remodelled and may car repaired for free. Oh, and groceries and medical care? I'm tired of paying for those too. Vive la revolucion!

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05/16, 02:30pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
RMS, FSF and "Free"

RMS is a zealot and the head deity of the FSF foundation, and sometimes zealotry is good. To put things in perspective though, from his point of view the BSD license is unfree since it allows companies to use a body of code, modify it and not redistribute the sources. This isn't what Apple is doing however. They've got a few clauses that state that if you make modifications you have to submit them to Apple and another that says that Apple has the right to revoke licensing over sections of code if it comes down to potentially losing a lawsuit.

Basically what the first part means is that if you release a modified version of the software then you've also got to release the source code. You can modify it for your own use, but once you distribute it you must provide source. Harsh? Maybe... but the FSF's license, the GPL basically has the same provision. If you distribute binaries you have to release source code.

The second provision is important to Apple. If tomorrow a company sues them over an existing technology they need to be able to at least say "We've pulled out the code". Apple is a company, its got a lot of cash and has already been the target of companies with get rich quick schemes through lawsuits.

Suppose Apple fixes both of these clauses, or even adopted the BSD license in its entirety. Would the FSF be happy? Nope. The FSF crowd does not feel that the BSD license is free.

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05/16, 02:34pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
Wow

I never get my posts on the same page of the story....wish I had something significant tosay...

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05/16, 02:38pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
More great journalism

From ZDNet, Microshaft's propaganda arm. Why anybody reads the c*** these people spew out is beyond me. Once again they brilliantly demonstrate what kind of shoddy, unresearched, sold-out journalism they practice. And nobody cares.

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05/16, 02:45pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
I get the feeling

Sometimes I get the feeling that idiots like these hunt for a reason to Apple-bash just to get notoriety on news sites, etc . . .
How open source is ANY product by Microshaft? (Let alone Winblows)

Apple is doing the right thing for ***their*** OS . . .

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05/16, 03:26pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
reactionary running dogs

"Yeah, right. Just more confused socialism." get your head out, you dolt.

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05/16, 03:46pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
What about the BSD lic

the bsd lic lets people/companies keep some code they change interal.

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05/16, 04:06pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
reactionary running dogs?

You need to stop _automatically_ believing the simple-minded leftist hogwash they feed you at your college. And are you willing to work for free? Even if you are unskilled, you could certainly make yourself useful around my home with chores and cleaning. How shall we arrange this?

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05/16, 04:42pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
Re: reactionary running..

Just to make your "working for free" comparison complete:
Yes, if I were, let's say somebody fond of fiddling around with cars, I probably would try to fix yours for free, but I wouldn't guarantee, that it will work after that and that I don't mess it up totally! If you want to have that, then you have to pay for it.
It's just the same story for open source: People (like Linus) did things for fun and they NEVER gave a guarantee that it would work, but it does (obviously) anyway.
So if you like to have some hobbyist doing "things" to your car, house, etc. you may get it for free. And that's not socialism!

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05/16, 04:48pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
RE:Free Software

and medical care? I'm tired of paying for those too.

As a Canadian Citizen I don't pay for medical care.

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05/16, 04:52pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
canada...

"As a Canadian Citizen I don't pay for medical care."

If you pay taxes, you sure as h*** do.

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05/16, 05:07pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
re: canada...

Hahahahahaha.... and look at the quality of what you get. Where do Canadians who want things like MRI and other expensive treatments go? Why, they cross the boarder, of course!

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05/16, 05:29pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
Fantasies

"As a Canadian Citizen I don't pay for medical care."
Of course you do, silly, and of you don't, someone else is paying for it for you. Hey, that's fair! isn't it?

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05/16, 05:31pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
Running dogs redux

OK, the car analogy is fair in the sense that yes, you can get an incompetent bozo to tinker with your car for free, but at least no one proposes that that is a realistic solution that you actually want to have a reliable, running vehicle.
Since you indicate that you lack mechanical skill, when can we arrange to have you come and clean my house for free? You'll probably need a key, too, since the pets require daily care and I may not always be there to let you in. Thanks!

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05/16, 06:07pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
Re: Running dogs...

OK, I think there are probably not many people who enjoy cleaning tasks, but you can find lots of people who really like doing computer stuff... So you won't get the first one for free, but you can for the second one!
Actually I know people who take care of other peoples dogs for free, because they enjoy it to have them around for some time, but not all day. In a sense "open pet care".
BTW: I think I could be interested in doing cleaning task for you, but be warned: My way of cleaning could include turning things into some form of weird art ;-)

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05/16, 06:18pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
Free lunch

Actually, Canadian citizens do pay for health care, via taxes. Aside from pure communism (not Soviet communism, which is state monopoly capitalism in reality), there is no such thing as a free lunch in any economic system.

I wish these right-wingers would stop screaming "socialism!" every time someone gets an idea of which Rush Limbaugh disapproves. It would help the debate tremendously, and get the right out of its Big Brother attitudes, telling us that its slavery is in fact freedom.

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05/16, 06:18pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
free!=public domain

Those of you who think of the Open Source as a bunch of hippies writing free software to s**** with M$ need to wake up and smell the giant woolly mammoth that's about to sit on your head. The issue is not whether someone will write free software that competes with commercial software; what software do you think got your words on the web??? Apache, sendmail, and countless other free products affect your every move on the 'net, and have been around for years. I'll take a product that allows me to choose my own hardware and OS over a closed-platform reliant one any day. But I don't know, what do you think of a Ford-only parking garage? a fridge that will keep Pepsi cold, but not Coke?

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05/16, 06:30pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
Re re re re re re re re

Running Dogs!
OK, you win the humor wars! :-) Weird art is good. Reasonable people can disagree. I love life. Really!

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05/16, 06:38pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
P.S.

I posted the first comment, and I'm not a right-winger by any stretch of the imagination. If you think about it, the old Marxist dictum, "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need" is also a pretty fair description of optimal capitalism.

Back to software, my reality is that if folks are not paid to make software, they will need to make their living doing something else. This will force some to stop developing. I guess the proof will be in the product.

How many people are really able to do everything they want with "free" software? And who actually paid for it? A lot is developed in University environments, and therefore supported by taxes and tuition money. As far as I know, profs are paid. So it's not free, it's just cost shifted. If you work on a donated computer, somebody still paid for it. Someone who has independent means who develops software and gives it away still has costs, it's just a question of who pays for them.

The short version is that nothing is free. I like the model of actually having a direct monetary relationship with the person who produces the things I use/want/need. Gives us both power and incentives to be honest and efficient. It's hiding the costs that tends to breed dishonesty and misunderstanding.

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05/16, 07:22pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
RE: "free" medical care

"As a Canadian Citizen I don't pay for medical care."

Unless you pay no taxes whatsoever, you are wrong. If you don't pay any taxes, someone else is paying for your "free" healthcare.

You may not pay up front, but you pay through taxes.

TANSTAAFL. There ain't no such thing as a free lunch, eh?

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05/16, 07:23pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
medical care

As a Canadian Citizen I don't pay for medical care.

How much of your pay went into taxes? Or don't you pay any taxes, and are a complete parasite?

Last time I went to a doctor, I paid $20 and my HMO covered the rest. The only difference is I *know* how much my premiums cost me, while you live in blissful ignorance and can soak your neighbor for every little ache and pain.

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05/16, 07:25pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
knee-jerks

I wish these right-wingers would stop screaming "socialism!" every time someone gets an idea of which Rush Limbaugh disapproves.

I wish liberals would stop coming up with stupid schemes to extract money from me for their stupid social(ist) programs. While your at it, get a freakin' job.

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05/16, 08:29pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
RE: knee-jerks

Hey Rush--it's spelled "you're" actually. I've not commented yet, so this isn't poster from above (I'm guessing that's who you are addressing with your little message about "stupid schemes" or whatever)....

Assuming you've attended school, driven on a paved road, had your garbage carried out of your trailer park, heard about a fire being put out or a rapist/murderer/child molester being arrested, visited a library, museum, or park (you could include beaches, lakes, and all that), you've utilized terrible social programs.

Don't be so narrow minded. Unless you're 90+ years old, you shouldn't act like it.

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05/16, 09:08pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
Yeah, but

Last time I looked, I was paying about $100K per year in taxes. That's a little much, y'know?

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05/16, 09:20pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
Truth from Slashdot

"If Linux were a beer, it would ship in open barrels so anybody could piss in it before delivery"

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05/16, 09:53pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
my 2cents worth

"If Linux were a beer, it would ship in open barrels so anybody could piss in it before delivery"

As opposed to M$ or even Apple sometimes who piss in it and god knows what else then lock it down and expect you to drink it without any disgruntled questions.

I'm still bitter as to why they went FreeBSD, the dodgiest port out there, OpenBSD is the best of the *BSD's but doesn't support SMP so I can understand that, why not netBSD then? best of all they should have gone with Linux, Yellowdog looks like something Apple should have done, Redhat or debian, quite nice.. lots of development, functionality and quick fixes but all available via RPM which is basically a *unix version of Software Update, Apple could have incorporated the same thing, transperant to the average user just like Software Update is. Apple tries to align itself with Sun so if RPM is good enough for Solaris, why not OsX?

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05/17, 02:30am | report spam | close Reply | delete
Oh wow.

We're all very impressed. $100K in taxes, uh. Yeah, you're right, that's way too much. We all sympathise and cry for you.
And this has something to do with Apple's Open Source effort because...?

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05/17, 05:54am | report spam | close Reply | delete
RE: Yeah, but

Yeah, but how much do you MAKE?

I've said this before but let me say it again, just TRY and argue with me.

How much does a car cost you? $20,000? How much does a car cost me? $20,000! How much do you pay in taxes? $100,000? How much do I pay in taxes? $1,000 maybe? Seems like I win doesn't it? I can OBVIOUSLY afford that car much better than you because I don't have the unfortunate problem of paying all that tax! You poor b******.

Oh, woops! I left something out....
How much do you MAKE each year, before taxes? $300,000? That means you have $200,000 to live off of right? $200,000 - $20,000 means you still have $180,000, and assuming a car lasts at least 5 years you will have $200,000 for each of those next 4 years. How much do I make each year, before taxes? $13,000? If I'm lucky. That means I have $12,500 to live off of. Now if I wanted that same car (now, I wouldn't buy a car "that expensive" as there are cheaper options available, but for comparison sake lets use it) I couldn't just buy it...I would need a loan. Factoring in interest over 5 years I'd likely be paying $27,000 for that same $20,000 car, and to acheive that I would need to spend $5400 each year. $12,500 - $5,400 means I still have $7,100 each year for the next five years to attempt to live off of. Considering the area where I live I'd need to spend about $500/month rent and food just to have a roof over my head (not even a good roof...but a roof nonetheless) and food on my plate: $7,100 - $6,000 means I'm left with $1,100 each year. Considering I'm a guy you can just take that money away right now for car insurance. So I'm broke. My expenses totaled $12,500/year just to survive for 5 years with a car, food, and a place to sleep. I'm betting you lead a MUCH better lifestyle and have money to spare.

THAT IS THE KEY. MONEY TO SPARE. Living better off than me, even though you pay 100x more taxes than me, you STILL have money to spare. Yet you think even what you pay now in taxes is too much? The one who posted above about the public utilities, roads, parks, police, etc... that are needed for you to live as comfortably as you do was spot on - taxes are essential.
TAXES ARE ESSENTIAL for you to lead your comfortable lifestyle. At the same time they make my life all the more difficult (albeit I too appreciate the comforts these public services provide) by the taxes taken away from me.

So if you can live VERY well off regardless of these huge taxes that are taken from you while I struggle to even afford the 15% (or whatever it is) taxes I'm forced to pay, WHAT SEEMS FAIR TO YOU?

Oh, let me not forget one more important fact. You pay the SAME 15% I do. On all income below $xx,x** you pay the same tax amount I do. On all income betwen $xx,x** and $yy,yyy you pay a slightly higher percentage. On all income between $yy,yyy and $zzz,zzz you pay a slightly highe

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05/17, 05:55am | report spam | close Reply | delete
RE: Yeah, but ...cont.

...On all income betwen $xx,x** and $yy,yyy you pay a slightly higher percentage. On all income between $yy,yyy and $zzz,zzz you pay a slightly higher percentage.
Now, $ZZZ,ZZZ is a very interesting figure. Somewhere in the high-$200k's and going up from there is where the 39.6% figure factors in. Which is funny because until George W. Bush took office that meant that the President of the United States was *NOT* in the highest tax bracket even though he held the most important post in the world. Now Bush makes $400,000 per year so somewhere between $100,000 and $150,000 of his income is taxed at 39.6% while another $150,000 or so is only taxed at 25% or whatever the figure is, and another $80,000 is only taxed at 20% or so, and the remaining $20,000 is only taxed at the same 15% that ALL of my income is taxed at.

Most people don't realize that that is how our tax system works. You may be in the highest tax bracket, but it is only the EXTRA income that gets taxed higher. I cannot understand, since you and I pay the same taxes for the same income, why you get upset for being taxed higher on income that you earn above me...

Confusing? Yes, it is. Think about it though! These damn rich b******* b**** about all their money being taken away while they drive around in BMW's wearing $10,000 suits while I have a right to be pissed at the amount of money being taken from me YET I understand it is vital to the survival of society and don't complain at all (except just now, but I was just trying to make a point).

- Jeff

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05/17, 06:03am | report spam | close Reply | delete
RE: Oh wow.

We're all very impressed. $100K in taxes, uh. Yeah, you're right, that's way too much. We all sympathise and cry for you.

Agreed! Bad spelling aside, your sarcasm is well placed.

And this has something to do with Apple's Open Source effort because...?

I apologize for going off-topic to respond to that a****** (oops, I know I shouldn't stoop to name calling, but I know plenty of people who pay as much or more in taxes than this fool and DON'T complain about it). I will stop now.

So, to get back on topic....
Can anyone explain why the FSF is upset that Apple requires people to publish all code they modify? How does this harm the free software movement? I would think it HELPS, although some people might not like having to publish their code, it makes sense to me - if you take something without paying for it, at least return it after you've modified it for the rest of the community to enjoy and take advantage of. That way when they make further modifications, you may find yourself wanting to use that!

- Jeff

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05/17, 09:26am | report spam | close Reply | delete
Canada

Rolling my eyes guys...

No, Canada _does not_ have free medical care, and Yes, it's publiclly subsidized medical care paid for by the taxes of the masses.

So what?

It's still better then what the US has. Sure, you can get an HMO and deal with it through insurance, but hey, it's just a different system and I for one would rather see blanket health coverage for all citizens then have a tax cut followed by having to worry about paying for things or getting insurance.

But that's just me. I'm sure someone will feel the need to flame me for that, but flaming someone for an opinion is just ignorant, so flame away.

Back to the topic at hand..

Anyone actually read Evan's "retraction"? He's basically said "Well, i'm a sheep, and since OSI has condoned Apple's model, it's OK with me." I wrote to him and advised him to do a little bit more research before he made such comments (regarding his original article), sighting about 5 or 6 different reasons why almost everything he said was incorrect or missing the point.

His response was basically "I did do research and you missed my point."

Now this retraction, based solely on the fact that OSI now says "Yeah, it's all good.". Christ Evan! Can you READ, or do you just follow what the governing bodies say? Surely if you could read you would have noticed that all the information OSI used to reach their conclusions in included in the APSL, which you so broadly poo-poo'd just 2 weeks ago.

I swear to god.. ZDNet is just the _worst_ place for "news" on the internet. Could be worse though .. they could be CNet.

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05/17, 09:46am | report spam | close Reply | delete
I think

the tax guy was trying to make a point about the fact that everything gets paid for by somebody. So if some people pay less or nothing at all, somebody somewhere is paying a h*** of a lot. Fair? I don't know.

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Apple's Darwin: Open source but not free

updated 02:20 pm EDT, Wed May 16, 2001

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