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http://www.macnn.com/articles/01/04/20/businessweek.explores/

BusinessWeek explores Dell, Jobs sparring

updated 12:10 pm EDT, Fri April 20, 2001

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BusinessWeek Online's Charles Haddad explores the reasons for public sparring between Dell CEO Michael Dell and Apple CEO Steve Jobs. "The real heat comes from the fact that Apple and Dell are so dependent on each other -- and they can't stand it. They're like mischievous kids who've tied their shoelaces to one another and now can't get them undone."

by MacNN Staff

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04/20, 12:35pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
Dendendency?

eh? come again?

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04/20, 12:37pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
Jobs vs. Dell

Steve Jobs is a familiar figure, a living legend in computer history. Dell can make it in the footnote as the great Microsoft slave.

Jeric2581@icqmail.com

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04/20, 12:41pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
huh?

someone's getting paid for churning out rubbish like this?

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04/20, 12:43pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
right�

Dell and the other beige box mills need Apple to innovate in the industry. Dell and others popularize Apple technologies? Um, no.

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04/20, 12:45pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
Dell

Just a pasty lardass in a suit and a tie that's choking off the oxygen to his brain. Steve is cool. Products from the two companies reflect their leaders.

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04/20, 12:48pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
actually it makes sense

remember, it's Apple that keeps getting all those design awards, and whose products keep showing up in movies and on TV because they're cool. Without those kind of products and the technologies they produce, what would be the point of buying a new PC? Dell and the others would collapse.

I would like to see Apple apply some of Dell's infrastructure smarts to their own business to help lower costs and make cheaper Macs. Remember, part of winning a battle is using your enemies strengths to your advantage.

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04/20, 12:57pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
Margins

Dell's gross margins are about 5%, Apple's are 27%. Dell is in a price war to put the other PC makers out of business.

I wonder what Best Buy and Circuit City are going to sell when HP pulls the plug on consumer sales, Compaq goes direct, and eMachines goes broke.

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04/20, 01:01pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
Haddad missed the boat on

Dell sees Apple as it's only threat. All PCs are the same in that there's very little integration between hardware and software. A perfect example is the Compaq system with the Pioneer DVD-R combo drive. Compaq takes that drive and OEMs the software to drive the thing and then deems it good. In this kind of market, Dell can play with anyone, but they simply can't compete with an integrated solution like iDVD. Dell will continue to sell new computers for as long as Microsoft continues to put out software that requires more and more clock cycles. That's a natural progression and it's steady and it works. It's also a much better for the company since it makes trends much easier to predict. Dell made the mistake of thinking that Apple was finally going under. The profit that Apple reported Wednesday was going to happen regardless of whether or not Dell said anything. For now, Apple is a small fish in a huge ocean but that small fish has a massive amount of power and influence given its size and if it found a way to get prices down enough so that the premium was a bit more reasonable, they might just get something going. Dell wants Apple gone. If it were otherwise, we'd have seen Dell computers with Firewire by now.

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04/20, 01:03pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
RE: actually it make se..

It's not just about infrastructure smarts! Apple has HUGE research expenses while DELL just puts together boxes. Someone's got to pay for that innovation somehow!!!

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04/20, 01:09pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
Jobs sparrs with Dell?

I've never heard Steve Jobs disparrage Michale Dell, ever. Other than to say that their inventory levels were lower last year... but that was no big deal- just pointing out they had an edge over the leader in the PC space.

More than anything, it seems Dell just enjoys taking potshots.

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04/20, 01:10pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
The MacJihad

We're so much better than the Wintel camp in every way. Sure they have the profit margins and market share, better hardware more choices and have had advanced OSes for years now, but we're MacFanatics dammit. We thrive on bringing other people down and praising the one true computer god Steve Jobs. It makes us feel better about our shortcomings and dwindling environment.

Long live the MacJihad

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04/20, 01:12pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
Infrastructure...

Actually, Apple has put into place many of the process innovations that Dell has pionered (as opposed to product innovations that Apple is known for).

Around mid '99, in fact, Apple had beaten Dell at it's game by getting it's parts channel so lean and efficient that they have fewer days'-worth of parts lying around than Dell. And the online Apple store, since about the same time, has regularly rated higher in useability and convenience than Dell's.

Haddad's argument for why Dell needs Apple seems realistic, but he's reaching with the argument going the other direction. Dell has made it's only significant contribution (it's business model and it's techniques for efficiency), and that's it. Apple continues to innovate and drive the industry forward. Without recent Apple innovations (and where they didn't create the technology, then where they had the courage to be the first to market with them), the Dells, Compaqs -- whatever -- you bought today would differ from the what you bought two years ago only in speed, graphics card and hard drive size. No Wireless networking, no Firewire, useless USB ports, no "Microsoft Movie," etc.

ADeweyan

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04/20, 01:17pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
Bull

I'm glad to see that some people recognize this article as c***. His logic is completely flawed. Write about something that actually makes sense next time, Mr Haddad.

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04/20, 01:21pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
Re: MacJihad

Get a life, dude.

Most mac users that put people down do so in retailliation. Mac users are discriminated against and insulted all the time; usually by people with little or no knowledge of the Mac platform? Should we just bend over and take it?

As for Mr. Dell who thought Apple should be liquidated years ago if he was CEO of Apple - it just goes to show that he doesn't even have enough confidence in his own abilities to make such a unique product (the Mac) succeed. Steve Jobs proved the he does have the confidence and the ability - and I'll bet it's just eating Mr. Dell up inside.

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04/20, 01:28pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
Hmmmmm

Yes, I can see where Dell NEEDS Apple. Which makes it all the more interesting when he makes statement to the effect of how he can't wait until Apple goes away.

But I can't see how anyone -- Apple or consumer interests -- is being served by joining in with Dell on his race to the bottom of the consumer pricing barrel.

You know what's at the bottom of the barrel, don't you? The dregs.

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04/20, 01:35pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
Stop being so strange

MacNN, please stop reporting on columnists (and analysts). Just give us news about soft- and hardware.

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04/20, 01:40pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
Of course

Dell and all of the MS lackeys need Apple. In two years, no one could come up with anything to plug into the USB ports on those machines. Along comes the iMac and BAM! you have peripherals. Then FireWire. What's next?

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04/20, 01:43pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
Haddad loses again.

I have yet to read some real insight from this guy. Most of his stuff is just way off. This last article was actually stupid enough for me to write to Business Week and suggest that they get a new Mac columnist. It might be wothwhile for others to do the same.

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04/20, 01:44pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
Come again?

A Dell is a good average computer.... but a MAC is a great computer... inevery aspect of design, interal and external.

Dell sucks, Apple does not.

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04/20, 01:50pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
Haddad is .....

at the peak of cluelessness and utter stupidity.

Problem is, by printing stupid stuff like that he gets people to read it so they can get pissed, and his readership increases. If you ignore him, he'll end up writing for the Juju Gazette, and we'll be rid of him, FINALLY.

Ignore the sucker. He isn't worth the electrons on screen.

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04/20, 01:57pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
Haddad missed the boat on

Dell sees Apple as it's only threat. All PCs are the same in that there's very little integration between hardware and software. A perfect example is the Compaq system with the Pioneer DVD-R combo drive. Compaq takes that drive and OEMs the software to drive the thing and then deems it good. In this kind of market, Dell can play with anyone, but they simply can't compete with an integrated solution like iDVD. Dell will continue to sell new computers for as long as Microsoft continues to put out software that requires more and more clock cycles. That's a natural progression and it's steady and it works. It's also a much better for the company since it makes trends much easier to predict. Dell made the mistake of thinking that Apple was finally going under. The profit that Apple reported Wednesday was going to happen regardless of whether or not Dell said anything. For now, Apple is a small fish in a huge ocean but that small fish has a massive amount of power and influence given its size and if it found a way to get prices down enough so that the premium was a bit more reasonable, they might just get something going. Dell wants Apple gone. If it were otherwise, we'd have seen Dell computers with Firewire by now.

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04/20, 02:15pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
hey why dont you shut up

Yo technology boy, stop criticizing people writing articles... if you don t like it... too bad. What s wrong with you guys? can t a journalist write opinions anymore? this is not the Bible or a Rulebook...the guy just expresses his point of view...just shut up and let him write...

And if you need a good analogy, Apple if Porsche, Dell is Ford, compaq is Fiat (example) there will always be more people buying cheap not good looking models compared to people buying porsches. If everyone had a Porsche it would be s***...if everyone used a Mac it would be s***.

Apple will stay the leader of technology/inovation/design in this industry and other companies just try to adapt Apple inovations to their market (Mouse, CD Rom, USB, Firewire, cool casing, colors, plug&play...you guys seems to have forgotten that Apple introduced ALL these that now seem industry standards)

So stop saying the Article is c***...it is not (actually he raises a couple of interesting points that I never seen this way) and instead keep on bashing PC users

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04/20, 02:19pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
It's interesting....

.... that Dell, whose company produces boring but low-cost products, always gets quoted complaining about other folks' companies. Steve Jobs, however, almost never gets quoted saying anything about other people's products (after all, he gets to say how neat Apple's stuff is), except when trying to convince an audience that MHz don't matter, &c.

You think it just might be the "journalists" doing the quoting who are responsible for our views of these two guys?

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04/20, 02:26pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
Dell

Where Dell went right in the beginning was making very well built machines. Where they have gone right now is in flexibility. The amount of available options Dell offers and markets effectively is astounding, and they get their products out the door fast. Also their ability to keep up with the leading technology (the fastest processors, advanced displays, etc....) is a plus. However over the past couple years Dell has also significantly gone down hill in quality. Still their recognition as quality machines from a few years back and their current innovative marketing makes them a leader in the market. Oh, lets not forget their constantly championed 3 year warranty.

Basically I'm saying Dell has a lot of market power from decisions they've made. Apple could learn from Dell. Sure, Dell won't last forever if their quality keeps declining like it has been, but then if Apple can't keep up with technology or offer more variety they are screwed.

Apple currently releases new systems every 6 months, roughly. Generally at the MacWorld or similar shows. There are two main reasons they've done this. 1) Market impact...the "ooh ahh" factor if you will. 2) the important one here, to simplify product offerings and support requirements. They don't want a bazillion different machines to support, just a few identical machines each year. Anyone notice when Dell put the new nVidia GeForce2Go in their systems? Not in a new model, but as an option on all their laptops. The way Dell handles supporting computers whose specifications change all the time is with two numbers. Printed on the side of every Dell machine. The first is a unique identifier that tells customer support who is the registered owner and when it was purchased, etc... the second number is an identifier for the model. Now, Dell would be crazy to give each configuration a different model (remember the old "Performa 630...wait, no this one is a 631...that one is a 638...that one is a 640...whats the difference?") Instead the model numbers are a mere reference to the model series more than the exact model. The exact model, as in the specific configuration of the machine which a customer service rep would need to reference to troubleshoot problems is a semi-unique identifier next to the serial number.
So one number identifies the customer.
The second identifies the machine, its video card, its sound card, its OS, etc...
Smart huh? It allows Dell to provide support as good or better than Apple ("so what is your computer sir?...A power mac...what kind?...I dunno, its blue.") and still keep up with the latest innovations.

- Jeff

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04/20, 02:28pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
Dell 2

I hope that made sense to everyone, and I'm not suggesting Dell is better merely they have done a couple things right. I personally despise them and their damn proprietary c*** (everything is on the motherboard...no video card, no nothing....so you can't use standard installers, you need their 'recovery' disc to install Windows...it sucks)

- Jeff

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04/20, 02:28pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
dissing is not sparring

Dell is a child. Jobs has class.
I know nothing whatever about Dell computers aside from the two catalogs a month that I get and throw away. They always seem to be priced more than what I could spec out myself from components.

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04/20, 02:43pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
Huh?!?!?!

What the h*ll is haddad smoking now....

"Then Dell figures out how to incorporate Apple's innovations inexpensively into its own next-generation of computers. I can already hear Mac fanatics crying ``thief,'' but it's not nearly that simple. "

What!!!??? Dell is an assembly line...they "figure out" nothing other than how to assemble cheap boxes. The difference between Apple and Dell is like the difference between Picasso and someone who sells posters of Picasso's artwork. Picasso was creative, innovative, and his paintings were expensive and highly regarded by connoisseurs of art...poster prints of Picassos litter the walls in college dorms, are cheap, and have sold in great quantity (and their easy to produce).

The poster printers need the Picassos of the world...but not the other way around...

Actually, my analogy is off a bit...the comparison is really that of Picasso and someone who sells posters of those chimps reading a newspaper on a toilet.

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04/20, 03:00pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
Apple Vs. Dell

oh please. Dell loves Apple. thats why they talk so much s*** about 'em. its like grade school all over again.

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04/20, 03:06pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
there is some truth

No matter how much we in the Mac community b**** we still only have about %6 market share. We can innovate as much as we want but unless there is third party support we're dead.

Dell and other PC manufacturers do serve a function, by adopting/copping what Apple does they force third parties to hop on board. Remember how hard it was to find a cheap printer before everybody jumped on the USB bandwagon. Also, now that we have a VGA port on our Mac's (ADC aside) say hello to the $250 cheapo 19" monitor...

This "If it ain't made by Apple it's c***" attitude has to end. Apple got over it, so should we. They've been buying technology left and right, and implementing it. (iTunes is a good example) Look what's happened since...

Micro$oft has abandoned support for USB 2.0 in XP in favour of FireWire, they have also dropped support for Bluetooth in favour of 802.11 (Airport)

Lighten up! Enjoy the fact we use the best computer/OS/GUI out there and tip your hat at those poor unfortunates who use PC's and drive our third party costs down.

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04/20, 04:12pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
idiot comment of the day

"I know nothing whatever about Dell computers aside from the two catalogs a month that I get and throw away. They always seem to be priced more than what I could spec out myself from components."

What kind of idiot statement is this? Of course they cost more than the parts, ever heard of a little thing called LABOR?

Do you walk into a restaurant and announce that the entrees are priced more than what you could spec out at the grocery store?

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04/20, 04:20pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
Very interesting...

"Most mac users that put people down do so in retailliation. Mac users are discriminated against and insulted all the time; usually by people with little or no knowledge of the Mac platform? Should we just bend over and take it? "

By this argument (coughcough), it's perfectly all right for the Israelis and Palestinians to be killing each other whenever they feel the need, because "Gee, we did it in retaliation for discrimination and being insulted by people with no knowledge of our culture."

Back to topic, fighting the OS/Platform war, only succeeds if one side is willing to be bigger than the other by NOT retaliating to flames, stupid insults, and such. Education of what today's Macintoshes can do, their speed, flexibility, and other strong points to those who don't know is a much better response than snapping back like a dog that's been teased one too many times. I mean, hey, can't we be the better of the two sides, and wouldn't BEING the better side reflect well on the Mac community as a whole?

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04/20, 05:19pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
re: very interesting

What I said first:

"Most mac users that put people down do so in retailliation. Mac users are discriminated against and insulted all the time; usually by people with little or no knowledge of the Mac platform? Should we just bend over and take it? "

What you said:

"By this argument (coughcough), it's perfectly all right for the Israelis and Palestinians to be killing each other whenever they feel the need, because "Gee, we did it in retaliation for discrimination and being insulted by people with no knowledge of our culture."

What an incredibly stupid analogy. There's a big difference between debating the merits of an Operating System where only egos are hurt, and killing each other. Using your analogy, it's perfectly all right to retailliate with insults or even better, education, when one culture is being discriminated against, not killing. How did you escalate my argument to mean killing is ok?

You sound like political pundits who believe every argument or solution is either on the far left and far right. Almost always the solution is somewhere in the middle.

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04/20, 06:11pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
iDumbass

Haddad writes nonsensical articles. He commonly misreports the facts on Apple hardware, so it isn't surprising that he gets everything else wrong as well, including this article's "market analysis". His writing is dumbed-down and trite, it's aimed at the lowest common denominator and Haddad never will improve. He is in a stasis with his stupidity.

This article has a cute "theme", about Apple and Dell needing each other, but it's wrong. He is taking liberties with the facts to serve his journalistic style. Which is much like Apple concentrating on form over function at times. Perhaps he's an iJournalist.

Or maybe just an iDumbass

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04/20, 06:34pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
Um, Yes. Dell needs Apple

The biege box makers couldn't innovate their way out of a paper bag. Everything single aspect of what made/makes a Mac a Mac was denigrated as frippery by the industry for almost all of Apple's existence. This same frippery is now what defines a personal computer.

Nothing is so annoying as the denial of easily researched history.

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04/20, 08:11pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
The real enemy...

Is not Micheal Dell, is not Yahoo or Buisiness week, not even steve jobs or Apple.

The real enemy is Mac User Groupthink.

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04/20, 09:14pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
Re: The real enemy...

The real enemy is Mac User Groupthink.

Burn the heretic!

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04/20, 09:26pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
Haddad is a moron

Haddad's theory is totally absurd. Not surprising since his articles are almost always lame like that. Even his best writings mislead the readers.

He pretends to be a Mac enthusiast and expert, but he is neither. Although he is sometimes rather subtle about it, his articles always have a negative Apple spin and are filled with
misinformation.

First of all, Dell machines are not cheap. They are not the cheapest PCs and they are not cheaper than similarly configured Macs. Show me the Dell PC with monitor that is cheaper than
an iMac. Show me the Dell PC with CD-RW, FireWire, Gigabit Ethernet, and the HD, RAM, and processor comparable with the $1299 G4 Cube.

Haddad promotes the myth that Macs are expensive. Why, I do not know, but he does it all the time.

Apple R&D has introduced many innovations over the years, but they have never needed Dell or any other PC manufacturer to copy them for any reason. How in the world is that
supposed to help Apple?

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04/20, 10:17pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
Re: there is some truth

Also, now that we have a VGA port on our Mac's (ADC aside) say hello to the $250 cheapo 19" monitor...

ADC is a variant of VESA's Plug-and-Display connector, given Apple's lead with Firewire it is likely to become a common sight on PC equipment when WinXP is introduced. We're ahead of the game here (again).

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04/21, 12:53am | report spam | close Reply | delete
What he didn't mention..

.. is that Dell is going after the education market - where Apple reigns King.

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BusinessWeek explores Dell, Jobs sparring

updated 12:10 pm EDT, Fri April 20, 2001

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