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Apple responds to anti-DRM complaints

updated 09:55 am EDT, Tue August 1, 2006

Apple, anti-DRM complaints

Apple has offered a reply to criticism by consumer agencies in Scandinavia of its digital rights management (DRM) policy for iTunes. The Norwegian council is still reviewing the response which came in the form of a letter, according to InfoWorld, meeting the deadline set by those agencies which prompted Apple to defend itself. The letter will likely determine the future of the iTunes Music Store in Denmark, Norway, and Sweden. "If they won't change anything, we'll most probably have to take them to the court in Sweden," Bjorn Smith said, a spokesman for the Swedish Consumer Agency. [updated, corrected]

The Norwegian Consumer Ombudsman first filed a complaint with Apple earlier this year, requesting that the company change some of its iTunes Music Store agreement terms and asking that the company defend its DRM policy.

The Consumer Council of Norway requested that the Ombudsman send the complaint to Apple, claiming that because digital music consumers can't play music purchased from iTunes on the player of their choice, the iPod-maker's DRM violates the Norwegian Copyright Act.

Norway did not wish to ask Apple to change the DRM policy without offering the company time to defend its policy, because that kind of change would require a major business model change, according to the report.

Some of the iTunes Music Store agreement terms also came under fire, which state that Apple retains the right to change the terms of purchases while claiming no responsibility for damage that iTunes software could incur to users' systems.

In early June consumer rights agencies in Denmark, Norway, and Sweden won a preliminary ruling, asking Apple to reply to their complaints by the 21st of June. Those groups later decided to extended the deadline to August 1st to allow Apple ample time to respond to their complaints.

by MacNN Staff

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mgpalma
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Sep 2000

0

08/01, 11:20am | report spam | close Reply |
Nice move

"If they won't change anything, we'll most probably have to take them to the court in Sweden," Bjorn Smith said, a spokesman for the Swedish Consumer Agency.

And Apple will close down access for you and you will have screwed your citizens. Smart...

bjurasz
Baninated

Joined: Mar 2003

0

08/01, 11:54am | report spam | close Reply |
Idiots

These Scandavians are even more stupid than the French. You can't play Apple-purchased music on the player of your choice. You also cannot use Apple-purchased operating system on the computer of your choice. Will they go after OS-X next?

RickVanderveer
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Joined: Jul 2006

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08/01, 11:59am | report spam | close Reply |
all a little hypocritical

The thing I think it B.S. about all these demands by foreign countries to open up DRM is; would they be making the same demands if it were Microsoft with 80% marketshare and their DRM?!

A nagging feeling tells me no. Their argument would probably be that it plays on many players. But, not on iPod. And while you have different player choices, you wouldn't have a choice on format (it would be all Microsoft).

With the upcoming player from MS (Zune, or whatever the heck they call it), and their partnership with M-TV, I have a feeling that Apple might be in for some stiff competition. Say what you will about the iPod-advantage, M-TV is a powerful marketing force that cannot be ignored.

And, superior products doesn't translate into majority marketshare (witness Mac vs. Windows).

migs647
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Joined: Aug 2005

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08/01, 12:02pm | report spam | close Reply |
Wow

Maybe that should quit going after the underdogs who are forced to use proprietary software, and go after the ones with monopolies... ahem M$.

danibo77
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Joined: Sep 2005

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08/01, 01:12pm | report spam | close Reply |
scandinavia goes crazy..

I wrote to the norwegian ombudsman concerning the point they made clear for apple to answer. My 2 page answer that i got in return claimed:

- They WILL go after microsofts drm next DEPENDING ont he ruling in this case. - On the other hand: They did NOT care about iTunes pulling themselves out of scandinavia. In fact, that would be better than to sucumb to their terms.. - I also told them to go after microsof for not allowing me to play x-box games on my nintendo..

kw99
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Joined: Nov 2001

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08/01, 01:20pm | report spam | close Reply |
You also cannot

play music on cassette tapes in CD players. And you can't play Xbox games on a Playstation. So what's the point? It's up to Apple to define the terms for use. It's up to the consumer to decide if the product and terms for use are desireable. I believe the consumers have spoken through their collective wallet. The only parties that want Apple to "open it's DRM" are Apple's iPod competitors. You know Apple is NOT going to do that for the sake of iTunes sales in Denmark, Norway, and Sweden.

mjtomlin
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Joined: Oct 1999

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08/01, 01:42pm | report spam | close Reply |
a bit ridiculous

The content creators are free to sell their content wherever they want, in any format they want. Most choose to do so on iTunes. Instead of targeting Apple, maybe the stupid consumer groups should go after the content creators/publishers/owners to provide an alternative source for people with "other" mp3 players.

jarod
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08/01, 02:45pm | report spam | close Reply |
LOL

The Europeans are either too bloody stupid or simply have way too much time on their hands.

e:leaf
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08/01, 02:54pm | report spam | close Reply |
Although I might heavily

Although I might heavily disagree with government intervention into business like this (why is it the government's responsibility to "protect the consumer?"), I do agree with the anti-DRM sentiment.

All of you who claim that "Nintendo doesn't play in Xbox" or "cassettes don't play in CD players" are using a false analogy which in no way brings you even close to being correct. Nintendo and Xbox are completely different technologies which require different hardware and software. The same goes with cassettes and CDs.

There are no (none, zero, nada, nunca, nunc) technological differences between the files bought at the iTMS and the files that all AAC players can play except for the artificially placed DRM. It is not the files themselves which don't play, but the nasty DRM that the files are laced with which disallows them from playing. That seems fishy to me, and dirty business.

A proper analogy is if Sony were to lace their Sony Pictures DVDs with DRM which only makes those movies playable on Sony DVD players despite the fact that all DVD players are perfectly capable of playing the format, a circumstance that none of us would stand for. We would all collectively scream for Sony's head, and we would be in the right. Yet, because Apple-centric boards are littered with Apple fanboys, most of you will blindly side with Apple while throwing around meaningless (and utterly wrong) analogies in order to "justify" their dirty business practices. And to those of you who would say "no one forces users to buy from the iTMS" you are correct. But no one forces users to purchase Windows either, yet you would be the first in line (just look at the posts here which needlessly bring MS into the equation) to point out their monopolistic practices.

I don't believe that Apple created their superior marketshare via a monopoly, but if they keep going at this clip, they will be maintaining their dominance through one, and that will end ugly.

And as a question, why is the answer to simply leave the market if Apple is forced to change their practices? First France, now Scandanavia. Who next? England has also announced public displeasure at Apple's DRM scheme. Does Apple simply back out of Europe altogether? Is that the right way? From numbers that I have seen, France alone accounts for about 5% of the iTMS store business, which, for the first billion songs sold, is approximately 50,000,000 songs sold in France alone. Simply giving that share away is plain stupid, and doesn't seem like a good way to maintain dominanace in a given market, and shouldn't be a viable option for Apple. Who the f*** just gives away 5% of their business to try and prove a point? None if they want to stay in business.

ZinkDifferent
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08/01, 03:29pm | report spam | close Reply |
rickvanderveer

you ask "The thing I think it B.S. about all these demands by foreign countries to open up DRM is; would they be making the same demands if it were Microsoft with 80% marketshare and their DRM?! "

Actually, they would most likely have gone after Microsoft as well, if the situation were reversed - on the other hand, if the market leader had been a skandinavian company, or any other EU company, most likely nothing would have happened.

BlueIce
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Joined: Mar 2004

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08/01, 04:04pm | report spam | close Reply |
I don't care

I never have understood why there is so much hatred for DRM. Yes, it can be intrusive and overly restrictive if not done right, such as the Sony rootkit fiasco, but Apple's DRM is a good balance and quite frankly I am not bothered one bit about not being able to play content from other music stores on my iPod or being able to play iTunes music on a non-iPod player for two big reasons: First, there is always a way to get music from other stores onto your iPod. The solution may requre a few extra steps but it is usually straightforward and doesn't require a whole lot of extra time. Second, just a personal opinion, but I do not have any desire whatsoever to use anything other than an iPod. I'm still using a 15GB 3G iPod and it works just fine for me.

Seriously, do people really hate Apple's DRM, or do they hate their success at using it? Where were all these DRM haters 2 years ago? And if Apple's DRM is such a bad thing then why do so many people not seem to have a problem with it? Maybe it is because for the vast majority of people, they have no need for the openess or interoperability that these anti-drm folk champion so loudly. Personally, I think all this DRM backlash is more about Apple's perceived dominance in the market than about the DRM itself.

macfan01
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08/01, 04:32pm | report spam | close Reply |
Nasty

What's funny is that Apple has, since the beginning, offered a way to charge music bought on itune Music Store on the player of your choice, even if the computer of your choice is a Windows one. SImply burn the music on a CD, and after that you're free to do wht you want.

On the other side, you cannot, on a mac, buy any music on any store based on M* technology. These stores aren't compatible with mac, or even Linux. But who care, or do these politican want that just the M$ survive.

That's really a shame

lamewing
Forum Regular

Joined: Aug 2004

0

08/01, 04:56pm | report spam | close Reply |
Macfan isn't thinking

Macfan, The "solution" Apple gives folks to "remove" the DRM from the music purchased on the iTunes store is NOT a solution. Why? Because it is time consuming in itself, punishing the consumer by forcing them to jump through hoops to be able to play the iTunes music on a non-Apple player. MORE importantly is the fact that you are forced to recompress the music a second time, thereby reducing the sound quality even more. Why do the Apple fanboys feel it is fair to force the non-iPod users to listen to (even more) inferior sound quality than those who use iPods. I stopped using iTunes music (the fastest and easiest way to test new Jpop music without importing a full CD) because the sound quality generated by reencoding the music was just plain unacceptable. Apple lost me as a customer because I will not be forced into buying a specific player due to artifical DRM nonsense.

kw99
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Joined: Nov 2001

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08/01, 05:00pm | report spam | close Reply |
Superior product

and user experience. That's what maintains Apple iPod/iTunes dominance, not a "monopoly." Another company is free to follow Apple's model of providing the "integrated" product and service. Sony tries; Microsoft is going to try. Now, if Apple did license its DRM and took over the digital music market as the only significant provider of DRM, THAT would be the monopoly and THAT would be ugly. But right now, consumers have a choice. They overwhelmingly choose Apple because they want to, not because they have to. THAT is a good thing...

kw99
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Nov 2001

0

08/01, 05:13pm | report spam | close Reply |
Why DRM?

> A proper analogy is if Sony were to lace their Sony Pictures DVDs with DRM which only makes those movies playable on Sony DVD players

That's not a proper analogy because Sony has no reason to make such a move. You cannot make comparison to a situation that does not exist.

Apple does have a key reason for its DRM. The iTunes Music Store would not exist without it. The record labels signed on with Apple because Apple provided them with a reasonable plan to guard against music piracy.

Why doesn't Apple license its DRM to other companies? Maybe it will at some point. But Apple has no incentive to do so now. What will make Apple change its mind? Maybe a competitor that actually competes by creating a more compelling product than iPod/iTunes. And if there were such competitors out there, we wouldn't even be discussting Apple's DRM.

xianman
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Feb 2005

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08/01, 05:59pm | report spam | close Reply |
RE: why drm?

> Apple does have a key reason for its DRM. The iTunes Music Store would not exist without it. The record labels signed on with Apple because Apple provided them with a reasonable plan to guard against music piracy. <

Yeah, because it's now impossible to find any of the music at the iTMS for free anywhere else now.

robbieG4
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Oct 2002

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08/01, 06:49pm | report spam | close Reply |
What is the problem?

What is the problem? No one is forced to buy from Apple. Apple does not have a monopoly on selling music. And if Apple did have a monopoly on selling music then there would only be a problem if they used that monopoly unfairly against its competitors and or partners.

I don't see why Apple or any other company should be forced to make all or any products compatible with all other devices. Apple made a risky investment and built the online music business from their investment. Why should they be forced to give up their model when it�s fair?

It would be one thing if we had no choice but we have so much choice.

The bottom line is if you don�t like their product then don�t buy it. It is in fact a product they are selling. Apple sells a solution. Go buy music from URGE, Napster, Yahoo, Rhapsody, Walmart, or whoever. If you don�t like the iPod has go buy the Zen, Sony, iRiver, Sandisk, Archos or whatever MP3 player you like. On second thought lets bring down the King. Lets see if we can give control of our online music purchase back to the music industry or better yet to Microsoft.

MacScientist
Junior Member

Joined: Feb 2000

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08/01, 07:08pm | report spam | close Reply |
re: although i might

e:leaf wrote: "There are no (none, zero, nada, nunca, nunc) technological differences between the files bought at the iTMS and the files that all AAC players can play except for the artificially placed DRM. It is not the files themselves which don't play, but the nasty DRM that the files are laced with which disallows them from playing. That seems fishy to me, and dirty business. "

I am not aware of any other AAC players besides the iPods. Every other personal digital music player I am aware of plays either MP3, WMA, or a proprietary format. Did I miss something?

lamewing
Forum Regular

Joined: Aug 2004

0

08/01, 08:25pm | report spam | close Reply |
Hey macscientist

You missed this....

The Sony PSP plays AAC files natively (without the DRM nonsense). So does the Sony NW-E005 and the Epson P2000. I found this info in a 1 minute google search.

tedgrigg
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Joined: Dec 1999

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08/01, 09:12pm | report spam | close Reply |
Let the free market be!

Apple's DRM had more to do with the music business than Apple's dominant share. I think even Apple was surprised by the popularity of the iPod. So DRM was established to please the music creators rather than what became an Apple monopoly.

Microsoft on the other hand had no such motivation except to dominate the market through what I believe were unscrupulous and illegal monopolistic practices.

So Microsoft deserves ongoing opposition for creating an inferior product riddled with bloated software designed to make 3rd party software inoperable. But Apple made music widely available for download only because of it's DRM. Otherwise, the music industry would never have agreed to such a sales model.

Let the free market be and go after the bad companies, not the innovators!

lamewing
Forum Regular

Joined: Aug 2004

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08/01, 10:39pm | report spam | close Reply |
Why on files and not CDs?

I really don't understand the need for DRM on these (or any digital music) files. To protect the musicians or the music companies? How is this any different than selling CDs without DRM? I see none as anyone who buys a CD can make a DRM-free file of the same song. Wouldn't it suit the music companies/artists just as well by just adding a digital watermark that could be traced back to the original buyer? It is extremely difficult to remove the fairplay nonsense; why not just use that idea for the watermark and then allow that song to be played on any unit that chooses to support the AAC file format?

dmpmax
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08/02, 06:15am | report spam | close Reply |
Sony players and movies

e:leaf and you have also got it wrong - Apple doesn't own the music like Sony does the pictures... so that isn't a proper analogy at all (mind you if Sony wanted to release their movies so they would only play on Sony DVDs good luck to them - that is their problem)

What I can't understand is you don't have to buy the song from iTunes - If you have another player buy the songs from another store - ok iTunes has 'exclusive' content but so do the other stores that is the decision of the 'Artist' not iTunes...so surely consumers can choose where they buy their music from......and if they don't like the terms then don't buy - I find iTunes terms to be pretty fair - compared to other stores...

I do agree with you - DRM is bad - but really what is the alternative - the music industry recently won 100 million from Kazaa for illegal copying....

I guess it would be great to be able to buy the song and then choose to do with it whatever I like - but I don't any online store that lets you do that.....and at the end of the day there are lots of ways to buy the song/album so surely it is up to the consumer to choose the manner that suits them best....

Foe Hammer
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Joined: Feb 2005

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08/02, 10:02am | report spam | close Reply |
Get Over It, Detractors

Apple's got a superior product and an integrated system that the vast majority of the world's consumers love. Those consumers voted - of their own free will given the multitude of music players in the market - to spend their money with Apple. Apple is also quite obviously not the only source that you can purchase music from and then put it on your iPod. No one is forcing anyone to buy an iPod and no one is forcing anyone to buy music from the iTunes Music Store. Apple has also not put anyone out of business because they suddenly included free "features" with the iPod or iTunes that heretofore were being provided by third parties that already had access to the system and were providing additional value through products that were the lifeblood of their companies. So to all the MS whining weenies out there: How's it feel to lose to a truly superior product and not be able to capture the market by producing a cheap ninth-rate bug-riddled knockoff? And to the same gang as future Zuney Tunes: Welcome! Come right on in! The market's been waiting. For six years.

lamewing
Forum Regular

Joined: Aug 2004

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08/02, 05:59pm | report spam | close Reply |
sheep

dmpmax... Sometimes there is no other solution. The only way to buy and download (in the U.S.)Jpop is through iTunes. I have NO other choise. If there were another solution that let me test out multiple singers in a legal manner (without Apple's DRM) I WOULD take it.

foe hammer... Just because folks are against DRM doesn't mean we are anti-Apple or por-Microsoft. That is just silly. If I were to buy my jpop (iTunes is it) from Microsoft, I would also want it to be DRM free

No one has explained why it is necessary to sell a file with DRM but not to sell a CD with it. Just because the labels say so. Uh huh. How about that digital watermark idea that identifies the owner of the music, but still doesn't restrict the use of the song to a specific device. Heck, I would like to stream my AAC (DRM) to my Tivo or xbox 360. As it is, you can use the iPod or nothing. Silliness.

SubPop
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08/03, 11:11am | report spam | close Reply |
pull out of europe?..

nd as a question, why is the answer to simply leave the market if Apple is forced to change their practices? First France, now Scandanavia. Who next? England has also announced public displeasure at Apple's DRM scheme. Does Apple simply back out of Europe altogether?

If you have an infected foot with gangrene, the only way to save the body is to cut off the foot..

It's more a business decision than an "emotional" one.. I suspect that Apple's DRM is far too valuable to their working relationship with the record companies in the US (the majority of their >1B songs was sold in the US, Apple JUST hit 200m in EU).. Apple has disclosed time and time again that the ITMS is not a money-maker for them: they only use it to promote the iPod.. Opening up Fairplay and compromising the deal made with the record companies in the US will prove FAR more costly than just a couple hundred million song sales that they would lose by pulling out of EU..

First: they would lose a bit of a selling edge in the music player market.. That's a small loss - the biggest selling feature of the iPod is the iPod itself, don't kid yourself.

Second: The more serious thing that can happen is that opening Fairplay will allow it to be more easily compromised (which is what most of the "open it up" people really want).. Unfortunately, as mentioned before, this would bring the end of the ITMS.. Without the ability to at least make it inconvnient to illegally share purchased music, Apple will lose their deal with the record companies for selling the music in the first place..

As for the monopoly argument.. I agree, Apple's enjoying a huge market for their players right now.. But it has more to do with "first mover" adavantage than it does monopolostic advantage.. Unlike Windows, users can afford to be fickle when it comes to player choice.. People generally choose windows because they feel they need to..

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Apple responds to anti-DRM complaints

updated 09:55 am EDT, Tue August 1, 2006

Apple, anti-DRM complaints

Nice move

Idiots

all a little hypocritical

Wow

scandinavia goes crazy..

You also cannot

a bit ridiculous

LOL

Although I might heavily

rickvanderveer

I don't care

Nasty

Macfan isn't thinking

Superior product

Why DRM?

RE: why drm?

What is the problem?

re: although i might

Hey macscientist

Let the free market be!

Why on files and not CDs?

Sony players and movies

Get Over It, Detractors

sheep

pull out of europe?..

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Apple responds to anti-DRM complaints

updated 09:55 am EDT, Tue August 1, 2006

Apple, anti-DRM complaints

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Nice move

Idiots

all a little hypocritical

Wow

scandinavia goes crazy..

You also cannot

a bit ridiculous

LOL

Although I might heavily

rickvanderveer

I don't care

Nasty

Macfan isn't thinking

Superior product

Why DRM?

RE: why drm?

What is the problem?

re: although i might

Hey macscientist

Let the free market be!

Why on files and not CDs?

Sony players and movies

Get Over It, Detractors

sheep

pull out of europe?..

Login Here

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