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Opera technology preview due Thursday

updated 07:30 am EST, Tue February 20, 2001

Opera Software, creators of the alternative Web browser that bears the company's name, will release Mac Technology Preview 1 on Thursday, the first public alpha release of the browser that has been in development for nearly three years. A public beta will be posted at an unspecified date in the future, followed by the final release, which will be made available for PowerPC, 68K, and Mac OS X, in that order. Opera dubs its $39 browser as the world's fastest, and also offers a free ad-supported version. [updated]

by MacNN Staff

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02/20, 08:03am | report spam | close Reply | delete
Ha ha ha ha!

From the Opera Web site:

"Opera for Linux and Macintosh will offer two options for keeping the browser. The user has the choice to download a free, ad-supported version with all features and functionality enabled, or registering the browser at a charge of $39 that removes the ads, with various discounts applying. "

Pay $39 for a browser that's unlikely to ever compete with the FREE Internet Explorer? Reply: Kiss my @$$.

This "ad-supported" software is really starting to get on my nerves.

Nice try, Opera. Welcome to the world of also-ran Web browsers.

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02/20, 08:37am | report spam | close Reply | delete
$39 is cheap

If Opera is good enough, many of us who hate Microsoft but grudgingly use IE because Navigator/Communicator sucks so badly will gladly fork over two twenties for an alternative (or just put up with the ads).

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02/20, 08:47am | report spam | close Reply | delete
One browser, one version

All I want is one browser, one version on every machine. As a front-end programmer, that's my dream scenario. Opera will only add to this bad play.

RE: Ha ha ha ha!
Agreed, how can you compete with a free, very advanced IE.

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02/20, 08:57am | report spam | close Reply | delete
Angry guy re:shut the fu

Wow, you sure are angry. Maybe Prozac should be next on your list instead of screaming and posting in here. I don't think he's critizing the Opera creators creativity, I think the thing that is in question is the 39 dollar price tag. In sports I could take a chance and bet on the LA Clippers in the beginning of the season to win it all and if they did I'd win HUGE but no one does because the Clips just have to much stacked against them to win. So yes, I'm comparing Opera to the Clips because Opera has to much stacked against it. IE is free, fast and functional with an emphasis on FREE. I use IE because it's a solid browser and costs nothing not because anyone tells me to. I'm sure I'll look at Opera, h*** I may even be impressed, but I'm not gonna put up with banners or pay 39 dollars when I can get near the same for free.

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02/20, 09:09am | report spam | close Reply | delete
Cocoa OmniWEB

I use Moz, NC sometimes, iCab for certain sites, tasks, IE5 for others. NONE are perfect. Each has a place and a use. I use ad-supported Eudora which is okay too.

I have more than one word processor, I don't see any harm in using Linux, Virtual PC, Mac OS Classic 9, OS X, or having 5 browsers open at once.

I don't buy Norton and expect it to do what Disk Warrior or TechTool Pro do. Why not specialization in browsers?

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02/20, 09:14am | report spam | close Reply | delete
Glad for the change

I use Netscape on all three of my machines. When running OS X, I use Omniweb. (Oh my... does ANYONE use IE under X... its horrible) Under OS 9, IE is fast, sure. But it makes the whole machine unstable. Go into your extensions, take our every one with the word "Mircosoft" in it, and you will cut your crashes in half. (if not more)
So Netscape is a little old. I'd be glad to pay 39 bucks for the Opera software if it is good. Anything should be better than "Please crash my Mac" IE.

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02/20, 09:21am | report spam | close Reply | delete
3-years?!

Opera that has been in development for nearly three years!
They'd better to come up with some exceptional piece of software then.

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02/20, 09:21am | report spam | close Reply | delete
MacOS 9

They release a MacOS 9-version NOW? Maybe Carbon later? What the h*** were they smoking when they decided that?
MacOS 9 is DEAD, MacOS X forever!
Everybody that keeps developing for that ancient system should think about how they want to make money from that.

I'm using OmniWeb, and Cocoa is the only way to go.

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02/20, 09:25am | report spam | close Reply | delete
one machine, one browser

"All I want is one browser, one version on every machine." - this is what standards support is all about, which Opera is very very good at. For more info see http://www.alistapart.com/

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02/20, 09:29am | report spam | close Reply | delete
macOS 9 is *not* dead

I still use OS 9, and intend to continue to use it for some time to come.

I have yet to see the benefits of going over to OS X, since that would mean a HUGE outlay of cash to rev up all of my software (and in a vast majority of cases, waiting for the creators to rev them up first). In fact, I have a 68k laptop that I use for work that runs 7.5.5! Not all the world owns a g4, you know... And if OS 9 is really all that dead, why does a copy of it comes with OS X?

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02/20, 09:31am | report spam | close Reply | delete
when 3 years != 3 years

Opera has been in development for *other platforms* over the last three years. Unless I'm mistaken, they've only been working on a Mac version for the last year or so.

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02/20, 09:32am | report spam | close Reply | delete
STANDARDS

All I want is one browser, one version on every machine. As a front-end programmer, that's my dream scenario. Opera will only add to this bad play.

wrong wrong wrong wrong!! i feel your pain (i've done all-version compatible pages in the past too), but this is not the way to do it. as the previous poster said, this is what standards are for. instead of wishing for just one browser, how about bugging the browser manufacturers to support the W3 standards for HTML? no proprietary extensions to gain marketshare, jus a fair and even support of standards.

Opera is designed to support these standards fully, as is Mozilla and IE (on the Mac only). right now it's only IE on Windows that's not playing fair (and those people who refuse to upgrade Netscape, but they'll go away in the very near future i'd like to think).

if browsers supported standards, live would be a lot easier. but please, don't wish for just one monopolistic browser. that doesn't get us anywhere except locked into one vendor.

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02/20, 09:48am | report spam | close Reply | delete
Re: Standards

I agree that what I want is not one browser, but all browsers supporting established standards. I'll use Opera if it fully supports the W3 standards, even if I have to pay $39. After all, if we really got to the point that the only browser was I.E., how much do you think MS would charge for it then, or do you really believe that it would be free for ever?

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02/20, 09:54am | report spam | close Reply | delete
Fastest? Not overtly

I've tried Opera on my Win2k machine, & it's no faster than IE5.5. Just as fast, which is to say MUCH faster than any Mac browser, so in short, get the OSX version going, & I'll gladly pay $40.

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02/20, 09:56am | report spam | close Reply | delete
And now for Macintosh

Hi Folks,

I have registered (i.e. actually paid for) Opera for BeOS, Linux and Windows because it is one of the best browsers available. I'm drooling like one of Pavlov's dogs because it seems it will soon finally be released for my favorite OS.

And then I can update my list of all known Macintosh Web Browsers: Mac Web Browsers.

I sure hope it is as good as the versions I use on other systems!

Darrel

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02/20, 09:59am | report spam | close Reply | delete
Free?

You dumbasses are paying for your browsers even if what you use if FREE to obtain.

You think Microshaft and AOL produce browsers out of the kindness of their hearts? Don't be so naive. Or cheap.

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02/20, 09:59am | report spam | close Reply | delete
List of Mac Browsers...

Sorry for the incorrect link. Here it is again:

http://darrel.knutson.com/mac/www/browsers.html

Darrel

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02/20, 10:12am | report spam | close Reply | delete
Opera sucked on Windoze

I tried Opera for a few days on my old Windoze machine and hated it. So I can't say I have high hopes for the Mac version either.

On Macs, IE is the best way to go currently.

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02/20, 10:19am | report spam | close Reply | delete
Opera for Windows

I have to use Windows at work and Opera 5.0 for Windows is the best browser I've used. It complies with tons of standards, offers significant customization, and renders quickly. The only problem is with DHTML, which is no big loss at all.

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02/20, 10:27am | report spam | close Reply | delete
IE may not last

IE has the marketshare today; Netscape had the marketshare 5 years ago; who know who will have the marketshare in 5 years?

If IE were the only browser available then Microsoft would not have to do any more R&D for it. Why improve a free product if it has no competition? As a previous poster indicated, Microsoft would probably charge for IE if they could. There has already been talk out of Redmond suggesting that they stop developing IE once 6.0 is out; instead Microsoft would focus on their MSN web browser instead. The MSN browser really sucks; it reminds me of AOL 3.0.

In the next year we will see Mozilla 1.x, Opera, OmniWeb, and iCab all grow in feature capability and performance. I look forward to seeing these new browsers really help improve the web experience.

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02/20, 10:32am | report spam | close Reply | delete
iCab's not free either

iCab, when it's finally released, won't be free either. It will be $20 or $30, those guys have said.

Face it, only the big guys with other cash sources can afford to blow out software for little or no cost. iCab and Opera aren't one of those.

You don't see Ferrari owners bitching about having to pay 10x the cost of an Accord for a car that doesn't deliver 10x the performance/comfort/featuers/etc...

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02/20, 10:34am | report spam | close Reply | delete
9's not dead

X is the future, but 9 is far from dead. I'd say that if Opera doesn't have an X version ready by Macworld NYC, then they're in trouble (facing stiff competition from OmniWeb, and most likely decent builds of IE and Mozilla). But for now, they're good.

And let's not forget the countless # of slower Power Macs that people own (esp. schools) that need a fast, lean browser. Likwise for 68K machines (though that number drops significantly each day...)

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02/20, 11:15am | report spam | close Reply | delete
On standards...

"Opera is designed to support these [W3] standards fully, as is Mozilla and IE (on the Mac only). right now it's only IE on Windows that's not playing fair"

This guy is RIGHT ON. Write to the standards. That's the only strategy that can work for EVERYONE's benefit in the end.

BTW: I don't understand why everybody has deserted Navigator 4.X for IE. Is it hatred of AOL? Sure Navigator 6 (in its current buggy state) sucks, but 4.x is NOT buggy, IS fast, and most pages look better on it (because that's what they were coded on). IE is OK, but not fabulous. Nav 6 could be a GREAT product someday (with bug fixes), as could Omniweb and iCab.All current browsers have their failings.

To the guy who thinks Mac browsers are slow: what are you smoking? I have a PC at work (IE 5.5) and a Mac at home (IE5 and Nav 4.6), and my Mac browsers are faster.

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02/20, 11:17am | report spam | close Reply | delete
RE: monopolistic browser

Frustration does lead to pain, that is for sure. One browser, one version meant I would then believe there is a standard.

I guess I don't realize how off Win IE 5.5 is to Mac IE 5.0. I was told Mac IE 5.0 is more compliant to W3C standards than any other browser, including 5.5 for Win and I believe it for the most part. So when N 6.0 was released, I was hoping it had the standards bit together. And to my experience, it didn't.

So IE 5.0 is where I'm at now. If Opera does adhere to the W3C, I will retract my one browser, one version comment. I may just pay that $39.

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02/20, 11:25am | report spam | close Reply | delete
Opera 5.0tp1 Mac rules!

As a alpha/beta tester of Mac Opera 5.0 tp1c4.252, I can say this: this browser is way faster then anything on the Mac OS platform except Omniweb(a browser which i like very much).
Opera kicks the c*** out of Internet Explorer and Netscape.
Try it when it is released, you will love it.

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02/20, 11:28am | report spam | close Reply | delete
RE: 1 browser, 1 version

To the guy that said, "All I want is one browser, one version on every machine. As a front-end programmer, that's my dream scenario. Opera will only add to this bad play."

Oh yeah, that works buddy! How about making life *really* simple and going to "one platform". Let's all give up our Macs and buy Windows Me machines! The Mac is nothing if not about *choice*. I can't believe Mac users would say something like that!

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02/20, 11:30am | report spam | close Reply | delete
IE being dropped for MSNE

Well as scary as that would be, dropping IE for MSNE (causing you to have to use MSN to use the browser) I doubt it will happen. To use MSNE you have to already have IE installed.

MSNE is just a grouping of services over IE. MSNE won't work w/o IE installed, so unless they put all of the IE technology into MSNE, it can't happen.

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02/20, 11:33am | report spam | close Reply | delete
Opera?

I can't trust their deadline announcements any more; They've missed too many. I hope they prove me wrong and finally give us a chance to try this on a Mac. As for not making this a Carbon version.........Good Grief, they must have been smoking something REALLY strong there.....

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02/20, 11:46am | report spam | close Reply | delete
hooray opera!

I've been using WinOpera regularly since 5 came out, and have been an alpha/beta tester for MacOpera for a year. I've seen three private releases this month alone, and each one gets better. I've introduced a couple coworkers to LinOpera, and they both use it as their primary browser. Opera rocks.

Re: One browser, one version
What are you, dense? Choice is GOOD! Let people pick the features they want. If you can't handle coding your front ends to HTML specs, get another job. Opera does a great job of handling HTML correctly. You people that are stuck in the print-design world need to wake up to reality: every browser is going to be a little bit different, and that's OK. HTML allows for that.

There's plenty of room for Mozilla, iCab, Opera, OmniWeb, and even IE. The latest private build of Opera still has a few bugs, but most of the ones I'm noticing are the same ones that exist in the Windows version, so they're in the core code. The feedback I'm getting from the bug-squash team is great. You guys will like MacOpera.

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02/20, 11:57am | report spam | close Reply | delete
Standards from left field

I know I am always impressed by nature's standard of changing diversity. It is what we have here as well.

That is the standard. You can make a tower of Babel about it, you can try to develop something more appropriate admire it or whatever because diversity is the standard.

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02/20, 11:59am | report spam | close Reply | delete
Re: Hooray Opera

"You people that are stuck in the print-design world need to wake up to reality: every browser is going to be a little bit different, and that's OK. HTML allows for that. "

Wrong, wrong, wrong! There is only 1 version of specifications from the W3 (which by the way is no longer html, but xhtml) -- any browser that doesn't implement the specs correctly isn't doing it right. There are alot of reasons for that, mostly trying to build market-share based on proprietary "additions" to the W3 specs, but it doesn't change the fact that html standards are meant to allow people with differing platforms and browsers to access data with approximately the same view.

As a professional web designer, I want adherence to standards so that I don't need to use browser sniffing and re-write my code for 3 or 4 browsers just because they can't interpret html code properly.

Opera promises, like I.E. 5 on the Mac, to adhere to the published standards.

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02/20, 12:11pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
Relax

My point of view was from the programming bit at the front end. It's easy for me to complain for one browser souly on that reason. Remember Apple didn't license it's operating system for the fear of standards becoming too loose. That's what makes the Macintosh OS so great. I don't have wonder where the File menu is going to be in the next program I open or wonder what the interface is going to look like. I'm cool with different browsers as long as they follow W3C, and that hasn't happen, yet. I have to program for the AOL users using it's version 3 of IE which doesn't recognize Java, JavaScript, plugins, CSS...

Mac user

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02/20, 12:29pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
I don't need Carbon

All you early adopters are going to have to put up with OS X's clunky interface and a serious lack of software. Let's face it, you'll be lucky if Adobe comes out with Photoshop for OS X a year from now. And are you really looking forward to shelling out $300 to upgrade Office? $30 to upgrade DiskWarrior? Who knows how much to upgrade all the little shareware apps you've collected over the years? I'm sticking with OS 9 for as long as I can. Sure, it may crash once a week, but it does everything I need my computer to do. I'd rather have a productive, intuitive OS than one that wastes cycles on trendy animation and forces users to mouseover simple controls.

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02/20, 12:54pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
I don't need IE's bugs.

For those saying IE is good enough, I don't agree. It may be just my jaded view, but it seems everytime MS comes out with some new software, it just causes incompatibilities and crashes, most relating to the stupidity of their Shared Libraries that they use. Install a new version of Outlook, and IE no longer works. Update IE, and then there's problems with Office. Get a security update, then Outlook fails. And exactly why they can't come out with a Microsoft Office Manager program that doesn't cause huge problems is beyond me. That's why I keep MS software off my Mac (that and I don't have to worry about 18000 macro viruses attacking my documents or email).

I use netscape 4.7x and iCab for browsing (I never found IEs browsing quick, and, at least on my PeeCee at work, I can't get it to open a new empty window - it always wants to open it in the current site, like why would I want that, I already have a window there!). iCab is quick, with the only main problems being Javascript support and high security. It lets you do read sites off-line, the back button is instantaneous, reads cached images quickly, and if you can live with the incessant "Running low on memory" errors, it works fine.

I used opera once (way, way, way long ago) on windows, but didn't like the interface, and when I found out I needed to pay for it, well that was that (I was lucky enough to get my company to buy me Eudora Pro).

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02/20, 01:21pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
OmniWeb is the best...

browser right now on OSX. It's still in beta and feature incomplete, but it displays pages fast and beautifully. Once they get CSS support and QT support, this will be the best browser for OS X. IE 5 rocks on the classic Mac OS, but so far I have been unimpressed with the Carbon port.

iCab is looking good too...

Nice to have an OS (X) that hasn't even been relesed yet, and already has 4 different web browsers available, with another coming soon. OS X ROCKS!
http://www.macosxcentric.com

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02/20, 01:21pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
I'd pay

I use my browser more than any other application. Sure there are free ones, but if I can pay $39 and get a 10% better browser, that is well spent money.

Cuurently I ise iCab, and I really enjoy a browser that is made for my benefit, and doesn't have a hidden agenda, like the others. I didn't think about it when I was using the others, but if you spend some time on iCab the difference becomes obvious. iCab doesn't do JavaScript well yet, so for that I still use IE and NS 4.7.

If Opera turns out better, I'll switch. And pay.

/Lars

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02/20, 01:25pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
You don't need Carbon?

Don't make me laugh.

Adobe's releasing most of its product line this year, as are about 400 other developers.

You think you're saving money, but you're really not. You'd have to upgrade some of those programs at some point anyway, so what does it matter when you buy the programs?

You're going to have to upgrade eventually, because within a year and a half a lot of people will stop supporting Mac OS 9. And then you'll have to pay lots of money to upgrade.

You don't like Aqua -- that's fine, but acting like you're never going to use it is just false. You'll be pulled kicking and screaming into Mac OS X whether you like it or not, and the only decision that's up to you is whether to buy now or buy later.

that's just the way it is

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02/20, 01:47pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
Don't need Carbon?

I agree for the most part. I think that the guy will also have the option to go over to Windoze and use a poor copy of OSX (Whistler). I know where my loyalties lie. I LOVE Aqua and OSX and I'm certain that much work has been done behind the scenes to bring about a ton of new software in summer 2001 when OSX is pre-loaded on Macs. I look forward to being able to use applications that don't swallow up resources while they aren't even being used and all the other benefits that OSX brings. Right now I'm hoping iCab get things moving a bit faster (ie. get a final release out and dump their god-awful icons) and that OmniWeb is as cool in the final release as it looks like it will be. I like IE 5 on OS9.1 but it's just still got too many libraries and bugs - It's such a hogger of resources, which is a shame as I like it's appearance and many of it's features. As far as Opera is concerned, I'm not holding my breath.

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02/20, 02:19pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
iCab low on memory

Heh you should do what I do: use iCab without it loading images. Talk about quick! That's why I use it for news sites and web board/forums.

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02/20, 03:09pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
opera 5 on Windoze not so

I used Opera 5 on Windows 2000 for a while. I wanted to like it. I really did. But my machine got slower and slower as Opera used more and more RAM. I had 5 pages (windows) open and it was using 50mb. When I killed Opera the machine got fast again. Using IE 5 on Windows 2000, I have had over 20 pages (windows) and not used more than 20mb and the machine never slowed down. All else (other apps) the same. IE 5 on Windows is aggravating, but works reasonably well performance wise.

I use IE 5 on Mac oS 9.0.4 and it works ok too, but, for example, yesterday I had to force quit it since, with 2 pages (windows) open and sitting overnight, my machine became unusable as every window from an app that un-occluded the desktop (which has lots of icons) caused each icon on the desktop to s l o w l y redraw itself, basicaully making the machine unusable. I forced-quit IE 5 and my Mac worked fine again. I did restart just in case.

On OS X, I have been using IE. I like OmniWeb but have not downloaded the OS X version (having used it previously on previous OS X like DR4 as well as on openStep 4.2), mostly because of time constraints. I do development on OS X now and whenI need a browser I am usually in the middle of something and cannot take the time out of what I am doing to go download OmniWeb when IE is already there. For normal browsing I am not yet using OS X. When Opera is available on OS X I guess I will give it another go.

I also used Opera 4 on Linux and it was ok. Many problems rendering normal pages I use every day so I stopped using it. It wouls also c*** out on a regular basis.

Chad

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02/20, 03:13pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
ohhh shut up...

I hate to say this but I can't remember the last piece of so called shareware i bought, and i can't remember the last time any mac user actually paid for software at all...

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02/20, 03:19pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
More the merrier

I don't care who enters the market with a browser, I'll be more than happy to try them out. As long as they all support the standard and view the pages the same, we all have better choices. The only difference, to me, should be the features on how how you access pages, (AD BLOCKING, my favorite :-), History, Multiple page views, etc.) What we get are a bunch of browsers supporting various parts of standards, making web development a pain. So I welcome Opera to the table, maybe they will get it right and get everyone else up to par.

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02/20, 04:24pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
Opera = most compliant

period. THAT is what you are paying for. While Netscape and IE try to "redefine" the standards set out by the W3C, Opera has actually been implementing all of them. This is according to O'Reilly's Defintive Guide to Cascading Style Sheets. All other browsers offer buggy support for standards on many pieces (although IE is technically the second-most compliant bowser - who'd have thought?)

so get off your high-horse, and either shell out for the browser to see what html, xhtml and css is SUPPOSED to look like, or use one of the freebies and, well, don't see it.

so there...

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02/20, 04:35pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
Browser(s)

My browsers are IE and Netscape4.7. IE has better features and Netscape runs faster and more stable on my machine.

Opera is suppose to have a good interface and be very fast. If it turns out to have better features, runs stable and fast, too, I might just shell out $39.

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02/20, 04:56pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
Icab will beat Opera

Fist of all this is all vapourware so far, for the person who tested it, I think your just too excited about trying something new, Icab smiles when a page goes by the standerds, it has the most options and programed for the mac, I think when its done it will be the one

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02/20, 05:21pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
no ring in this nose...

Ya know, they give it away so they can dominate. That is what they do. To support them, to use IE is to let them have their way. 3 years ago I was arguing with a friend of mine about IE as the default browser on every computer and how MS could then dominate any web address. We argued online travel services. She said everybody uses Sable/Travelocity and that MS couldn't take that away. I pointed out that if IE comes up, by default to MSN, and you click on Travel and it takes you to MS's Expedia they most certainly will. And they have. It is now the number one online travel service. They can bury Sable, or anybody else, in the search. The vast majority of new computer users have no clue. My mom didn't know how to change her home page so she's used to using MSN. By default. Why is it suddenly no. 3 behind Yahoo and AOL portals? By default. I'll use Netscape 4.7 (hey, at least Andreeson INVENTED the browser) and try others as they come. I'll be damned if I'll ever be dragged around with a ring in my nose, I don't care how good it is.

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02/20, 05:34pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
Advertisements?

What the ****!?!?!? I'll be damned if I'm going to switch to Opera if it's gonna beam advertisments directly to my screen. It's bad enough having to put up with all the commercialism on the internet, and I sure as h*** don't need more of it on my apps. Sherlock pisses me off so much because of this.

Thanks, but I'll pass on Opera. IE and iCab are FREE, and that's what I'm going to stick with until something better comes along. As much as I hate m$, IE's quality is hard to argue with, and it doesn't have any annoying ads to go along with it.

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02/20, 06:09pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
Re: Opera Most Compliant

Standards-compliance has been one of iCab's primary design goals from the beginning. I wonder how Opera will be able to compete against iCab in that respect.

Someone on the Opera team responded to that comment with "iCab supports CSS and iCab doesn't," to which I reply, "iCab supports HTML and Opera doesn't, because iCab is available now. (Incidentally, the iCab developers were touting CSS before MSIE could spell it.)

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02/20, 06:14pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
Re: Opera Most Compliant

Heh. ^_^; Umm...

"iCab supports CSS and iCab doesn't,"
should read
"Opera supports CSS and iCab doesn't."

I should proofread before clicking "Post."

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02/20, 06:17pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
I love iCab

I use iCab 99% of the time in OS 9 and X- it's lean, mean and fast, does a beautiful job of adhering to the mac GUI. Yeah, it's not complete- yet- but it keeps getting better all the time, on a regular basis. When they come out with version 1.0, I'll gladly pay the $30 or $50 they ask for. It's great to see this kind of app development and being able to try it for free, and I damn well want alternatives to NS and M$. I'm not too thrilled with Omniweb, but it's good to see more browser choices out there.

Haven't been impressed with M$ since Word 5.1 and Netscape since version 3...at least I'm ocassionally impressed by Apple and others ;)

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02/20, 06:22pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
one more thing

i design web pages for a living, usually for intranets. you'd think i should be designing with the standards set down by the W3C. I'm not. I can't, because i have to compensate for the non-compliance of the default browser, which i am sorry to say to netscape users, is netscape, and its support for css1 is horribly bad. inheritance... deprecated tags... the whole nine yards.

so i have to "unlearn" a lot of what i have learned in the field. and oh, if you are wondering, netscape 6 isn't an option: no one in IT wants to deploy it due to system requirements, etc.

by the way, stop taking this advertisement thing so bloody PERSONALLY. geez. television and radio are free, yet you live with the commercials. heck, you even pay for cable, and STILL put up with commercials (remember when a selling point of cable used to be that it didn't have commercials because you wee already paying for the service?). I'm not saying it's right, and I am sick of the ads, too, but using terms like "kiss my a$$" show how little you are involved on the back-end of putting these things together.

the ads are not that bad, and i can ignore them pretty well. heck, if i took 10 minutes, i could probably hack them out of the program. but hey, i use hotline, and deal with those ads. i use eudora at work, and deal with those ads. just wish they all used the SAME palette to avoid cluttering my screen.

plus, i am sorry, microsoft can afford to give their browser awayfor free - they own half the planet. netscape can afford to give it away for free, 'cause aol owns the other half.

yet i don't see how icab can give it away for free. viva la resistance! ;-)

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02/20, 09:31pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
$39, no Java, no cookies

'Nuff said...

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02/20, 10:13pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
Misinformation

The Windows version of Opera has Java, cookies, and every other feature I can think of. I use Opera for Windows every day and I can't remember the last time a web page failed to load in Opera. It's much faster and more stable than IE or NS, and it uses far less resources. I have 30 windows open in Opera at the moment and it's been running for the last 40 hours. This PC only has 64Mb or RAM and I'm running a few other apps, yet Opera has barely slowed down.

The GUI also makes browsing the web faster and much nicer, I hope that the GUI features are still there in the Mac version. You can control the browser using just the keyboard, there are shortcuts for everything. You can turn off images in every window, and zoom in and out in the windows. You can also save the open windows so that they load the next time you open the browser, and you can load groups of bookmarks together. There are loads of other nice touches in the GUI that make it very nice to use, and it can be set up how you want.

Overall it has huge advantages over the free browsers that make it a real bargain. People buy expensive Office software even though you can get free alternatives, so I don't see why people have a problem with spending a small amount of money on a better browser. Personally I don't think that the single small advert is much of a hassle, it doesn't take up much space or slow it down.

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02/20, 10:26pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
Replacing the Taxi

You can replace the Taxi icon in iCab easily. There are a bunch of alternative icon files on the iCab site. Personally I use the Cyberdog theme :)

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02/20, 10:56pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
re: Misinformation

"The Windows version of Opera has Java, cookies, and every other feature I can think of. I use Opera for Windows every day and I can't remember the last time a web page failed to load in Opera. It's much faster and more stable than IE or NS, and it uses far less resources. I have 30 windows open in Opera at the moment and it's been running for the last 40 hours. This PC only has 64Mb or RAM and I'm running a few other apps, yet Opera has barely slowed down."

This is much diferent than my experience with Opera 5 on Windows 2000. It was using 50mb on my machine with just 5 windows open and causing the machine to be terribly slow. Many pages I use regularly would not display or otherwise work correctly, etc. Maybe I will try it again since I really want to not support MS.

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02/21, 12:23am | report spam | close Reply | delete
IE screws up Macs

I've never understood how people can love IE so much. It and Outlook Express both appear to stomp all over memory they don't own, and crash machines. I hate them, and I hate their non-mac-like menus. But the main thing is they destablize systems. In fact, a friend of mine who owns a service bureau c** copy shop asked me why his Macs kept crashing. I told him to remove these programs from his macs, and since he did, he hasn't had any problems with crashing. So, the only time I use IE is when I check how well my websites load.

For surfing, I use icab. But I'll try Opera too. And I'll do my best to make sure my sites work in that browser as well.

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02/21, 12:06pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
Opera on the Mac?

Opera is so much faster than either IE or Netscape that plenty of people will put up with the banner ads to use the browser. I can't wait to try it on the Mac.

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02/21, 12:13pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
Choice

While I'm not thrilled at the price ($39), choice is never a bad thing. I say the more browsers on the Mac, the better.

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02/21, 12:50pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
Opera - good browser

I use Opera on Windows, and I have to say it's very good. There's certainly a place for it, especially if iCab remains intolerant of bad html.

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02/21, 01:37pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
Get a grip

Opera that has been in development for nearly three years! They'd better to come up with some exceptional piece of software then.

Hey, iCab and Mozilla have taken equally as long and NEITHER is in a final release stage. Software development takes time in an industry that keeps changing.

All I want is one browser, one version on every machine. As a front-end programmer, that's my dream scenario.Opera will only add to this bad play.

Hmmm, buy that arguement we should ALL only use one OS -- that would certainly make the world of computing easier -- and ALL only use one set of primary apps (Word, Excel, etc.) so that we never have translation issues and everyone would know how to use those apps. BAH! I'm a web developer and I know that would make our lives simpler, but unfortunately it's NOT the proliferation of browsers that is the problem, but how the makers of each browser seem to change their adherence to html specs (rather than all meeting the same specs) that causes the problem. IE is a good browser, but don't forget that it replaced Netscape as the big browser of its day (and at that time, everyone thought Netscape was the bomb). Technically we should all revert to Netscape 3 and only support that. Get real.

Opera's a good browser on the PC, but I have no delusions that it's compete with Microsoft development. iCab shows promise but still doesn't support enough "power" features to make it viable for everyday use - robust java, css, etc. are all very lacking. Ironically Netscape/Mozilla, while improving, aren't going to be worth spit until 2010 at the rate they're moving, and buy that time the browser metaphor will probably not exist... i.e., they've missed the boat.

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02/21, 01:43pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
Get a grip (rewritten)

** damn comment box removed my quotes so the first "get a grip" had the comments removed. this should make more sense. **

----

[[ RE: Opera that has been in development for nearly three years! They'd better to come up with some exceptional piece of software then. ]]

Hey, iCab and Mozilla have taken equally as long and NEITHER is in a final release stage. Software development takes time in an industry that keeps changing.

[[ RE: All I want is one browser, one version on every machine. As a front-end programmer, that's my dream scenario.Opera will only add to this bad play. ]]

Hmmm, buy that arguement we should ALL only use one OS -- that would certainly make the world of computing easier -- and ALL only use one set of primary apps (Word, Excel, etc.) so that we never have translation issues and everyone would know how to use those apps. BAH! I'm a web developer and I know that would make our lives simpler, but unfortunately it's NOT the proliferation of browsers that is the problem, but how the makers of each browser seem to change their adherence to html specs (rather than all meeting the same specs) that causes the problem. IE is a good browser, but don't forget that it replaced Netscape as the big browser of its day (and at that time, everyone thought Netscape was the bomb). Technically we should all revert to Netscape 3 and only support that. Get real.

Opera's a good browser on the PC, but I have no delusions that it's compete with Microsoft development. iCab shows promise but still doesn't support enough "power" features to make it viable for everyday use - robust java, css, etc. are all very lacking. Ironically Netscape/Mozilla, while improving, aren't going to be worth spit until 2010 at the rate they're moving, and buy that time the browser metaphor will probably not exist... i.e., they've missed the boat.

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02/21, 02:09pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
$39 bucks for a browser

that better be pretty damned good to make me wanna cough up 40 bucks...

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02/21, 02:27pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
We'll see - will we?

I switched over to MSIE5 last autumn because - someone said it here - NN sucks so badly. Yes, its the onl�y choice i have since Opera is alpha, iCab cant do real scripting as of now. But have you ever tried MSIE5 on a pre-G3? Its aaaaawfull slow, kind of "hoggy", blocks the system over and over (it also blocks G4's when you open a javascript win until it gets server response).

So what i think people have been trying to say that Opera - as of now - is just another broswer to come. Once its here, we can see if its an alternative. I have a preview of Opera thats about 3 days old or so, and it looks promising. but i wont jump on the hype until i have had them on my HD. Same for iCab, once its features are complete and we know *what* the feature set exactlly is, we can talk further. Right now, iCab just i useless too me since i seem to visit sites that use heavy scripting or whatever.
Netscape does better if you stop using this "GoLive code" in the recent Adobe Releases. It simply adds 1KB of scripting no one would do that way himself:))

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02/21, 02:34pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
HTML compatibility

Oh yeah man, dont start speaking of HTML Sets - I already have lost 3 hairs since reading the post "get a grip" :)

Either one sticks to simple language that even Modzilla 2 understands correctly (ok, in *its* way) or you hook up a large and complicated .js file that sets variables being used throughout the site to control the various browsers. If you want to see what thats like, just tak an hour and visit some p*** site. these site have the best .js code one can think of.

I chose the mac - amongt another thousand things - because i wanted to focus on my work rather than the work environment, but where did i end up? Doing WebDesign and spending hours figuring out how to incorporate this and that feature on "a browser set that represents 95% of the surfers". Well...

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02/21, 02:45pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
I remember when...

Netscape used to cost 69.99 in the stores, this was 5 years ago...besides, everyone knows that you can get it (Opera) for free, no big deal.

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02/21, 02:51pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
dream sceneario

"All I want is one browser, one version on every machine. As a front-end programmer, that's my dream scenario."

funny, that's Microsoft's dream scenario, too!

--
2501

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02/21, 03:07pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
Opera for Mac

I paid for Opera on Windows (for work, where I have no choice) and it's great. I use iCab on Mac at home as my primary browser. (I stay away from MSIE and Netscape whenever possible.) You can bet I *will* get at least the ad-supported version of Opera for Mac to see if it's as good as the Windows version!

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02/21, 04:06pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
Opera 5.0

To the poster (way way back) that posted that he tried Opera for Win a while back The prior version of Opera for Win really did suck. The 5 release is VERY GOOD. Here are a few points to consider:

1) while you have to pay to get the non-add supported version, the a add supported version is small, AND (at least in win) if you hit F11 you get a VERY good full screen browser with keybaord shortcuts for all functionality. And I mean full screen as in you ONLY see the web pages and the Opera supporting banner adds go away. IE has a full screen in Win, but it kinda sucks.

2) Since Opera VERY strickly complies to W3 standards it is a great browser to test your web code.

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02/21, 04:36pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
Opera? Welcome!

Why be hostile to new approches to Internet Browsing?
A company is making a new application to the the marginal Mac market on a very important area for all of us. They are even challenging the big Bill.

Every member of the Mac community turning their thumb down before even giving new concepts a chance, should stick to LittleWeak and buy themselves a Win-box.

Opera (and every other newcommer) you are most welcome!

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02/21, 04:38pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
Opera? Welcome!

Why be hostile to new approches to Internet Browsing?
A company is making a new application to the the marginal Mac market on a very important area for all of us. They are even challenging the big Bill.

Every member of the Mac community turning their thumb down before even giving new concepts a chance, should stick to LittleWeak and buy themselves a Win-box.

Opera (and every other newcommer) you are most welcome!

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02/21, 05:53pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
Opera? Competition?

First of all, there are those making strange claims about IE eventually costing money (and those that claim we're paying already.... ummm.... is there any logic in such claims? elaborate please). Both Netscape and IE will ALWAYS be free. Why? Well different reasons for both:

Netscape: Currently Netscape's key market is among Linux and other *NIX based operating systems. They won't EVER pay for a browser: the open source movement is too strong. If AOL starts charging for Netscape, it'll die an even faster death. Besides, most people still use Netscape 4.X, and they're not going to retroactively add a price to software that's been available for over 2 years.

IE: Most of IE's users are Windows users. If Microsoft starts charging for IE, they WILL come under fire from various legal sources, as one of their key defenses for packaging IE with Windows is that they DON'T CHARGE, thus acting as fair business practice. Since they therefore won't start charging for the windows version, they logically won't charge for the Mac version, otherwise they'll lose total market on the platform. Besides, with IE signed as Apple's browser of choice, they'd be morons to start charging. MS may be a monopoly, but there's no such thing as a "corporate moron."

Anyway, back on topic:

Opera is a very decent browser, however, no matter how tightly it sticks to standards, it doesn't mean anything so long as 95% of the world uses IE. At the same time, Opera sticks very closely to HTML standards, but trails behind both MS and Netscape for Javascript and CSS support (although for the latter trailing solely behind MS: Opera at least has CSS2 support, while Netscape (4.X, which I consider the only feasible version) doesn't). HTML standard support shouldn't even be an issue for most established developers: we've been using workarounds since the web became a dual-browser world, and browsers rarely render pages extremely differently other than where font resolutions are involved. Furthermore, as mentioned, Opera still lags behind in CSS support, and while this may sound odd, the simple reason is that MS has become the official dictating developer for CSS (MS is a member of W3C: they help make the standards, so stop arguing otherwise). Still, Opera's CSS support is still commendable, being second only to IE, with Netscape falling far behind. Javascript is the biggest concern at the moment, however: having tested Opera under Windows, it tends to support javascript in a mix of IE JScript and Netscape's official Javascript, meaning that while for some purposes it requires IE syntax, Netscape syntax is mandatory for others... for all I know it may very well be following Javascript standards, but that doesn't help since, as stated before, we live in an IE world, and this just adds another level of complication.

I look forward to Opera entering the market, but don't look forward to having to support a Mac incarnat

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02/21, 07:54pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
Sheesh pt2

Well I went ahead and got in on my mac. It is very fast, not as fast as on my PC but that's cuz my pc is probably 3-4 times as fast as my mac. Definitely impressive, nice to see my fav browser on the mac too, but there's one thing I dont like about it compared to the PC:

On the windows version, everything only takes up "one" window. Its like the napster interface on windows. if you wanna chat, or download, or search, you click the buttons at the top (kinda like the task bar in windows) and the windows cahnges. onthe mac version of napster, everything has its own window and i dont like it as much. It's nice beause on windows, if yhou have 4 IE browser windows open, it takes up four things in the task bar.. but with opera, everything together takes up one spot, and it has its own task bar. may sound stupid to you mac zealots, but i like it.

Also, this preview doesnt have tghe ad's in it. That's nice. :)

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02/21, 07:56pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
Opera on PC isn't exactl

rosey. There are standards that even it doesn't support. Let's hope the Mac version supports more.

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02/22, 01:10am | report spam | close Reply | delete
installed?

i installed it, still missing a few features, and it's font rendering is a bit disturbing. it's somewhere between ie's 96 and ie's 72. weird. but all in all, quite pleasant. nice to see more developer's working on mac stuff. can't wait for the OSX version... =)

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02/22, 08:28pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
Yur all Crazy

On PC, 5.02 is wicked fast...I don't know how they made the cache faster, but it smokes IE. As far as the price...doesn't everyone crack the "free/demo/shareware/ad-supported" software they get these days anyway??

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02/24, 08:46pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
What about emai?

Does anyone know if Opera will have it's own email program in it. Or will you have to use an email program like Eudora. I use iCab. It works great but I have to use Eudora to get email.

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Opera technology preview due Thursday

updated 07:30 am EST, Tue February 20, 2001

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