Bruce Tognazzini, founder of Apple's Human Interface Group and noted authority on interfaces, has published his "top ten reasons the Apple dock [still] sucks" and offers insight on what should be done to correct it. (For more OS X news, see osx.macnn.com)
by MacNN Staff
Comments
What a lame article. All I ever hear from this guy is complaints. He reminds me of a movie critic. All complaints and no contributions. Keep using OS 9.x Tog or switch to Windoze and shut up.
2¢
This guy is a b*******. he also basically says its a bad copy of the windows taskbar, funny, but NeXT had the doc first. what does he do now? maybe he just is mad cuz he didn't get to help design osx...
Hey Tog, maybe you are right. I am going to go back to Mac OS 7.1, the ultimate acheivement of OS UI. That will show them huh?
With all due respect to Bruce Tognazzini and his research on interface design, I now find myself looking for the dock whenever I boot into OS 9.x. I spent my first month on OS X adding every available utility to make it more OS 9.x-like. Since then, these have been removed. OS X is a paradigm of simplicity. The dock could be improved by user-determined relocation. However, this appears to be in the works.
"They didn't let me design it. Waaaaaaaaa!"
I'm going to buck the trend and "think different" here with the perspective that Tog makes a lot of good points regarding the Dock. The transparency between icons, the way the Dock can obscure the bottom portion of a window/application and (thus) prevent resizing the window w/out some sort of clumbsy window acrobatics, and the fact that many folders/files are indeed indistinguishable from each other when placed in the Dock are important points for Apple to consider.
Will i still use OS X? Do i still think Apple's creating some amazing products? Do i still find the Dock more efficient in many other ways than the current system? The answer to all 3 is yes, but that does not put them on a pedestal so high critical analysis of their products cannot reach them.
- C
Although I don't think the dock is quite as much of a failure as he does, I think it does need some improvements, like labels and such.
I like certain aspects of the dock, but it is not perfect yet. Of course it is still better than anything else comprable out there.
I do not know why Tog says that the dock is too big. On my screen it can be sized down so much that it about half the height of the Mac OS 9 control strip.
Speaking of the control strip, I agree with Tog that Mac OS X should include one. I know the Public Beta does not have one, but I thought I had heard that Apple was going to have one for it by the March release. Am I remembering wrong?
I also would like to have an Applications menu. I have always emulated one in the Apple Menu by creating a folder full of aliases in Apple Menu Items. An actual Applications Menu would be nice though.
I also would like to be able to position the dock pretty much wherever I want on either monitor of my dual monitor configuration.
Other than the above mentioned items, I think Tog is just overly critical.
Apple just needs to give users the ability to totally disable the dock and not just hide it. That way those who want it can have it and those who don't want it can get rid of it.
The dock will help Windows users making the move over to mac OS X. They are used to having Windows task bar and so will want something like that, but hey will find that Apple's dock is much easier to configure and arrange.
Tog has been outrageously and unreasonably critical of every change Apple has ever made to the GUI, since he left Apple. He has written many articles like this and while he occasionally has a legitimate issue, ALL of his articles have that "whine" in them...."You can't get anything right without ME, the great and powerful TOG". I wish he would get that chip off his shoulder and get on with his life. Yes he WAS a great GUI designer, maybe he will be again someday.
To Tog I say: Style sells....effeciency is boring and unfortunately style is many times NOT effecient! Get over it. 800,000 iMacs were sold in the first 139 days of being released and it was NOT because they were efficient!
PS I seem to remember an article claiming that the iMac was inefficient, hard to open up, and too small. Was that one of YOUR articles, Tog?
Let's come up with our OWN Top 10...
I fail to understand the hostility of Mac users in response to Togs article. If you do not agree with what he has to say, that is fine. State your concerns with his arguments in an adult and mature manner. Rebutt his claims with logical counter-points.
Personally, I loathe the Dock. I am not concerned with who developed or used the concept of a Dock first. In reality they are all variations on the Mac's menu bar. In any event, I find the Dock completely useless and a poor substitute for the features it is supposed to replace. On a 15in iMac screen the Dock consumes far too much desktop real estate. At smaller sizes, the icons are too small to be legible. The only solution is to hide the Dock.
Tog and his research created the Mac OS we all love. Give the man a little credit.
You can't actually access his site to read his Top 10 list!
Although Tog does have a few good points (like the transparent pixels click through), his points are small. I just get the feeling that he's bellowing out a bunch of smog in order to get some attention. Thanks Tog for what you did in your far gone days at Apple, but let's move on. When I look at my past work, I don't think - gee it's great - how dare someone mess with it. I think - I wish I had done this or that instead of this.
Let's make this a democracy.
I hereby second Apple's nomination of the Dock to MOSX.
I also move that Tog be flogged or at least gagged with the Apple hockey puck (the only good use for that mouse ;-). Any Seconds?
No matter what Apple produces, there will always be people who complain. That's life.
If everybody agrees on everything, then...… you know the answer.
I read Tog's last article and agreed with him about the Dock. Unfortunately he lives in a world populated only by UI designers and therefore cannot understand that companies will never design "correct" GUIs.
Ask for Tog's website, it still sucks. Corrupting a URL by redirecting everyone to an outdated article about butterfly ballots (does anybody care anymore), then telling everyone to instead go to a mirror site which doesn't host the new Dock article is one of the poorest designs I have seen anywhere. And several links on the mirror site are broken.
This type of web "design" makes it difficult to take you seriously, Mr. Tog.
"[The Lisa] was a great machine. We just couldn't sell any."
Thats from page 59 of Apple Confidential.
Now anyone who has seen a Lisa knows what an abomination it was, even its interface was clunky and almos comical compared to the original Mac.
And this was a UI expert commenting on how GREAT the Lisa was? Puts things into perspective.
The Dock in OS X will be Control-Strip like, it will be Pop-up folder-ish and it will be App Switcher/Launcher-ish.
It will also be very different from the Mac OS and THAT is what people are not liking in reality. Many people avoid change because it makes them, forces them, to think in different ways about concepts the have grown accustomed to. The OS 9 app switcher is ALWAYS in my way, but the Dock can hide itself. And the Dock will have a vertical orientation and more feature.
OS X is not quite done yet, do you really think Apple will reveal EVERY detail before release? That would only give Microsoft a head-start in copying things for Whistler!
Look at the title of Tog's article and then talk about maturity. Seriously, you'd hardly suspect that Tog actually made any accomplishments in his life after reading his list. He sounds like a whiny teen. Or someone from a Macnn forum.
The dock obvioulsly has its flaws, but many have been addressed or repaired. Tog's complaint about the dock wasting screen real estate by existing on the bottom is moot since it can be positioned vertically now as well (when did he write that list, anyway?). Dock too big? Then resize it (not a big ordeal, and you can do it w/out going to the preference panel).
One complaint I have is with having to go to the preference panel to set the auto-hide feature. I like it out most of the time, but if a carbon app which isn't dock-aware hides under it, I'd like to be able to hide the dock w/out resorting to opening preferences.
It does still need work like labels for folders etc, but Mac OS 1.0 wasn't that great either. So, Tog needs to move on and stop harping on the same old topic. They are a little busy right now trying to finish and ship the dam thing.
Besides, he fails to mention that OS 7 went backwards with the control panel and they bought the 6.0 design back. I believe he had something to do with that? Wasn't that kind of windows 3.1 like? So, it's not perfect but either accept it or go over to windows.
It's now pointing to an insightful but uninteresting analysis of the "Butterfly Ballot".
thnx
My only major complaint is that the dock is stuck on the bottom of the screen. To me, it would be much more useful if I could drag it to any edge of the screen. For example, in OS9, I use the Application Switcher (dragged from the app menu) without title bars or application names as a drag/drop/app switcher. It is very small and gives me a quick visual of what is currently running. I place it between my HD icon and the right edge of the screen -- space that is essentially unused otherwise.
The dock pops up (unwanted) when you mouse to the bottom of a window in OSX. I don't know how the thing is constructed -- maybe some nice programmer will provide a hack so I can move the dock.
stop posting stories about him tog is an idiot stop posting stories about him tog is an idiot stop posting stories about him tog is an idiot stop posting stories about him tog is an idiot stop posting stories about him tog is an idiot stop posting stories about him tog is an idiot stop posting stories about him tog is an idiot stop posting stories about him tog is an idiot
Tog and his buds at Nielsen Norman are making a lot of noise and a lot of money right now. Criticism is easy and the press picks it up. Execution is hard. The dock has been improved (MacWorld, anyone?) and the whole UI is coming together. Togzi, ease up a bit. Earlier OSs had their problems, too.
Many of his critiques of the Dock are the same as mine: it does copy the worst aspects of Windows' Task Manager, it is trying to do too many functions at once.
go to versiontracker and download TinkerTool - 1.1.2
I can't even get the site to load. If I hit the stop button, there is a message telling users that his Florida ballot article caused him to exceed his servers daily limits and I suspect this is happening again with the OS X article. Instead of loading the URL shown on MacNN, it loads http://www.asktog.com:80/limit.html
Weak!
Apple is not listening to me. They are not reading my thoughts. SJ hasn't called me on my ideas. The dock is okay, but it's not perfect!
Seriously, Tog has some great points to anything he writes about (I didn't read the article about the Dock, because his site is swamped, won't load), but it doesn't hurt to see what his points are about things. He tends to think directly about what is best for a human being interfacing with a device or any artifact used by humans. Has anyone else thought about the concerns of left-handed users of Powerbooks? He has. Has he addressed concerns about the keyboard layout on Powerbooks? Yes, and I agree with him.
You know what keyboard manufacturers need to do? They need to place the caps-lock key at the top of the keyboard. So I won't keep hitting it when I go to shift or tab!
I used OS X for months and it was great, and I thought that the dock was very handy and a solid interface element. Unfortunately, not many software packages work natively under OS X.
When I changed back to OS 9, I purchased the shareware A-Dock so that I could have the dock again. The dock is a great - this guy has an opinion but doesn't know squat. He's an ignoranus.
6 years ago, as a freshman in college, I used X-Windows (on HP-UX) for the first time. The interface was admittedly very bland. However, one very noticeable thing stood out. The way you could switch applications and documents and the dock at the bottom. At the time I thought these were the coolest things since sliced bread. Everything was right there in front of you. You didn't have to squint at or scroll along a control strip. You didn't have to use a pull down menu to switch apps or have some stupid switcher that floats obtrusively (I don't find the dock to be obtrusive) over everything. It was great. And now we have the dock and OSX which gives me the best of both worlds. Thank you Tog for all the enjoyment your old UI gave me, but I find OSX's to be much better.
Its too bad that good messages often get ignored and prejudged. It sounds like a lot of people don't like Tog, and thus, ignore or disregard the content of his message.
I work with people whose expertise is human engineering and design interfaces. It is amazing how things that you can design that you think are a good idea can be the worst of ideas, when it comes to the world of designing human-friendly interfaces. Sometimes, you don't catch it until your design is being prototyped. Sometimes later (oh sh*t!). The hard lesson to learn is that you ignore these experts at your own peril.
The bottom line is that with any design (interface) change, there's going to be a learning curve. OS X is not unique in this regards. From a design standpoint, however, the desired end result, is for an interface that customers will perceive as good and friendly (and thus, buy), but also with improvements to its interface that ultimately enhance the user's productivity. Going backwards is not only stupid, but a form of corporate suicide.
I read Tog's piece and I've yet to play with OS X. But that doesn't matter. As a designer, what concerns me is that there are some gaping, obvious holes. These need to be plugged, no question. But what worries me more is if they screwed up on the basic stuff, then what else have they been neglecting? I'm concerned that they've really not paid sufficient design detail attention to the true goal: EASE OF USE.
In this regards, every item that Tog identifies is an agenda item that merits investigation...it doesn't matter if your opinion is that he's whining, bitching or whatever: he's saying these things for a reason and whatever his motivations, the vulnerabilities and problems that he pointed out are truely a service: what is a far greater evil is the spineless 'yes man'.
Finally, I personally believe that there should be a graceful migration path...if the dock truely is "so much better", then quite clearly, it can afford sharing the screen with the legacy interface features that we are used to and it will win mindshare based on its own merits. Ultimately, this is nothing more than survival of the fittest.
-hh
I have to agree with Tog on many of the matters with the Dock. Yeah, it is fine for many things, but it is a mess as it currently stands...
I think it would be nice to have windows cover the Dock. Then when mousing over any visible portion of the Dock it could float above all windows until you moused away from it again. This would probably work better than hiding it.
Being able to move it to the right edge of the screen (vertical orientation) could also help.
I really like that the Dock is right on your face with lots of functionality a single click away.
I tried posting this to the feeback page but I was no longer able to find it.
are valid I think, expect for #10. I did a lot of work in user interfaces before I graduated college a year ago and I can see the reasons behind 1-9. His solutions I do not think are the right approach however, much of it appears to be 'bring the old interface back.' The article he links to "http://www.liquid.org/dock/" is a MUCH better article overall and has some solid points and ideas with examples. This alone would be a vast dock improvement.
I was prepared to read a rant, but instead found a pretty good essay. And I agree 100%.
When Aqua was first unveiled, my absolute first thought was: "Get that preschool-level task bar out of my work area!"
It literally reminds me of Fisher-Price.
I have used Macs for 15 years and have lauded its usefulness over Windows 3, 95, 98, and 2000. When OSX was unveiled, I thought that they were trying to imitate Windows. Bad idea! I have to use Windows NT everyday at work, and I have gotten used to it, but I still prefer the Mac OS hands down. However, when I go home and start working on my own writing and multimedia projects, there are two aspects of Windows that I am used to and look for in the Mac OS:
1. The pop up task bar on the bottom of the screen - it's nice and thin and uses titles to tell which folder is which. The bottom of the screen is convenient because I usually don't do side to side scrolling. And, typically when I am working on a document, my cursor use is withing the lower half of the document, making it more convenient to go to the bottom of the screen to switch apps or folders than up to the corner.
2. The Start Menu Recent Documents list. Somehow Apple's recent documents list does not work. You will see documents that are weeks old and not find the one you were last working on. And you have to move way down the Apple Menu to get to the folder, because if you try to move it by adding a space to the name, it gets reset the next time you start up.
John Palmer
metallurgical engineer at 3M
Hello, I just read another article on your website about how bad the dock is. I must say I am surprised you have such animosity to the dock ("The Dock must go. Completely.") Having used the public beta, I rather enjoyed using it; I did not encounter the problem you repeatedly refer to ("Now, you begin the task of scrubbing back and forth vertically, trying to force the labels to appear..."). In fact, my experience working with end users in several computer labs (e.g. a stint at Kinko's, and various student and faculty labs while in college) leads me to believe that no matter how painfully obvious something seems to the designer of the interface, or those who have had previous experience and/or training in using it, neophytes will continue to be confused and frustrated. At least the dock attempts to fix the single greatest frustration that I witnessed users having at the Macs: the "classic" Mac interface gave insufficient feedback about which applications were open (or even running in the foreground). No doubt this was due to the original design being a single application at a time affair. If I had a nickel for everytime people complained that they couldn't launch an application and then checked and found out that either they already had the application running (after the first the first document is closed only the menubar changes, so an attempt to launch from the app's icon does not create a new window, and thus no visual feedback for those not trained to look at the menubar for clues), or that there were already several (unneeded) memory intensive applications sitting around in the background "hidden" behind the applications menu (completely invisible to the untrained). Now the dock will place these running applications right under the user's nose, and clicking on the icon will create a new blank document. Doubtless a trained individual will still need to come along and help the new users out with something the designer thought was obvious, just as I helped countless horrified lab users by dragging their floppy disc icons to the trash.
BTW, for some reason you are having problems with all of your folder icons looking the same, I have a solution for that: Next time you want to put a folder into the dock, launch a web browser and go to http://www.lycos.com/ do a search for "Alyssa Milano", which will result in plenty of pretty pictures. Pick out the one you like best, click and hold on it and select "copy picture". Then select the folder in the finder, and hit command-I. Click on the generic folder icon, and paste (command-V) the picture you previously selected onto it. Now THAT is distinguishable! You might even get to enjoy thos 128x128 icons this way :)
have fun,
Bob Savage
http://www.quailwood.com/columns/044top10docksucks.html
Or just:
http://www.quailwood.com/columns/044top10docksucks.html
(I can't preview this post so I'm trying two different ways of posting the URL)
You can find the article here if you're having trouble with the main site.
Tog is a has been, that can do nothing but wallo in his former glory. He is resistent to change. He, quite frankly, is washed up, and can't deal with it!
He makes some good points, luring me into thinking he'd actually learned how to debate... but then he blows it all with an overly dramatic and unsupported (in his own arguments) "just kill it".
He's obviously bitter, and should seek help. Until then any constructive comments he might have will continue to be over-run by hyperbole to the point of nausea.
Tog has valid criticisms, but his article is lacking in interaction design: his language is too charged, he freeloads and exaggerates, and his 'solutions' are poorly thought out themselves (thick icons to represent size, his Application menu 'fixes'). It takes more than an intellectual/skilled designer to make a good interface — one needs a layman to be the final judge of sound interface design.
Lemme see, some points ...
To make sure your Dock isn't huge (mine is not, either), you need to go into your preferences and manually fix this. Beginning users won't think of this.
Most users have no idea how to paste icons onto a folder or a document.
Not having titles WILL cause you to misclick.
I do disagree with Tog about the Trash -- having it hidden is irritating. OS 9 can hide it under all sorts of stuff.
I'm amazed at how people claim someone like Tog is "resistant to change" when your problem is that if Apple coughs, you want to save the phlegm! I can remember the MS fans saying the same things about the IE4/Windows Explorer integration a few years ago.
Apple has made some improvements -- the semi-return of tabbed folders, some Control Strip functions -- but we're now talking about OS X in less than two months, and Apple has yet to fix fundamental Dock problems. Some real solutions, as opposed to Tog just saying the Dock sucks and must go:
1) Return of the Apple Menu to a launcher. Infinitely expandable. Launching can be in the Dock, but it is just too limited for many apps/docs. The Go menu isn't persistent.
2) Labels are available and turned on by default.
3) The Dock is anchored to a corner, and can be on any of the three sides not occupied by the menu bar.
4) Instead of the magnification effect, why not have a "pulsing" effect for Dock items on mouseover? It solves the movement problems, and fits well with OS X.
5) At some point, we should be able to have multiple Docks.
6) We should be able to hide the Dock as we currently can the Control Strip, via an obvious hotspot.
7) Some additional organisation is needed. Using a constrained right/bottom Dock as a base, we would have the Trash on the right, launchable apps and docs to its left, all drives (not just removeable ones) to their left, running apps, and Docked windows/docs. This will further minimise movement, as the items that change most often will not move the items that usually do not change.
8) While we're bringing back the Apple Menu, why not merge the new Application menu into it, and also display running apps before a divider?
Anyone that says that Tog is wached up or whining is a jackass. Have you forgotten that he was one of the principal designers of the Mac OS, the interface that we all now know and love? Tog isn't resistant to change—he is resistant to destructive change. Apple has, as Tog says, made an "demo OS" that looks cool. I know that under the hood, OSX is better than 9.1 anyday, but in user-interface it is a step backwards. The dock does suck. At least six of Tog's points are very serious flaws, such as the dock not adhering to Fitts law. Tog has been studying various interfaces for over 30 years, and he knows what works and what doesnt. Anyone who says that he is "bitter" or is a has-been is Steve Jobs' butt toy.
I read the complains about "spaces" in Icons. Like in MacOS 9, icons in MacOS are only clickable within the masking area. It is the same way in X than in 9, except that icons in 9 are limited to 32x32 pixels and you can have 128x128 targets in MacOS X.
An icon that is hard to his is not Apple's fault, not in 9 neither in X. The designer of the icon is the culprit. Period. Example: Project Builder initial hammer icon was hard to hit. Now, they expanded the target -and made the icon nicer- which makes it very easy to hit.
Tog is a looser. He is going to go the way of the dinosaur soon, like Ric Ford, Henry Norr, Charles Haddad and many other so-called Mac "experts." Direct ticket to la-la land, their time have finally arrived. Hey, say hi to the Amiga folks for me.
Tog is 100% right. The dock sucks.
He isn't against changing the Mac user interface -- he just wants something better instead of something flashier and much less useful.
There is no separation of applications, documents, and other icons in the dock. There is no way to tell which document a given icon represents by looking at it. Open 10 applications and it gets way too crowded.
I have 30-40 apps that I use regularly and have hierarchical aliases within my Apple Menu. How the h*** am I going to do this with the Dock? Everytime I run another application the icons move around, making it impossible to remember where something is located.
blech.
The best thing Apple could do is provide a way to turn that monstrosity off without losing your trash can so we can replace it with a good third party tool.
I think Tog makes a lot of good points. Why not be open to criticism. It is heathy to get the feedback.
The current implementation of transparencies is bad. The buttons should act like tiles, click anywhere in the region.
Make the dock vertical too.
I would like to be able to tear the dock apart so that one is for apps and another is for hidden windows, then the hidden window bar could have labels on it. I could put the trash where I want it.
An app menu is a good idea - but honestly - new users I work with never remember it in the OS 9 world. I am always saying that thing in the upper right hand corner.... I think appending a list of open visible apps to the Apple menu would make sense. The Apple menu is basically the system menu at this point - putting the list of running Apps would make sense there. It might cause a little clutter - but it would make a lot of sense too. If clutter were the concern it could be in a hierachical menu of "current apps" which would be an analog to "recent apps", but I think dynamically adding them to the Apple menu - icons and all - would be more intuitive and make a lot of sense to new users. The nice thing about the Apple menu is that it provides a single focus for users.
mac os team!
Have you forgotten that he was one of the principal designers of the Mac OS, the interface that we all now know and love? To
WRONG Tog came to work at apple in the late 80's
all you Jobs brownshirts espousing newthink better watch out, because i'm back and i'm going to kick your geek asses. The dock sucks - its from the NeXT and Jobs is trying to ram it down our throats. it's 10 year old technology - where is all the new R&D? Oh that's right, apple doesn't do R%D anymore, it just cranks out the same all in one ideas (imac) and NeXT cube (sorry, cube) from 10-15 years ago. R&D at apple now means figuring out which color to make the next season of imacs. Where is all the innovative user interface research, like handwriting recognition ... DUUOH, he cancelled the newton didn't he? Out of a hissy fit because to was Scully's baby. I'm so glad Motorola has Jobbed Apple with the static processor speed, i may have got a slower Pismo than i otherwise would have, buta dangerous egomaniac like Jobs needs to be taught a lesson.
Fight the System.
VIVA ZAPATA!
The anti-Toggers continue to prove that they are running around with plugs in their ears whenever Tog or John Sircusa or someone criticises the OS X Dock.
There are two problems with you:
* You are not typical computer users. We're all pretty savvy around here. After a week with any OS, we'll be plugging along.
* Some of what Tog says are your problems. The Finder and the Trash being the only constants means that you must look at the Dock before you click. It is faster to know where you are clicking instinctively. You lose several seconds.
On March 24, we won't have to hear the bitching of the Dock-worshippers anymore. They'll have their Dock. Most other Mac users will have Mac OS 8/9 until the first big revision.
... Tog only talks about what things should change. I would personally have a little more respect for these folks if they could come up with simple prototypes of their own (simple animated GIFs would do). While these two have been an important part of the Macintosh, neither has been constantly involved in the complete evolvement of the Mac/Mac OS as it exists today. In addition, what is intuitive to one person may not be to another. I personally am happy with the classic Finder and there is definitely some refinement that could take place in the OS X UI. The Dock is ok but could be better. However, while you have two supposedly highly knowledgable interface designers saying what things are wrong, what concrete solutions have either provided beyond the talk? In the mean time, there are people who are or will be working on real software solutions to enhance what Apple does not deliver (this has been true for many years now) and while not trivial, someone could write their own Finder or replace the Dock with their own applications. The underlying core architecture and the higher level frameworks that Apple has provided (in addition to Cocoa) makes this very doable. Some of these developers don't possess as acclaimed a title bestowed on either Raskin or Tog but they provide real solutions which in either singular or via combination of products fills needs (we can look at past and present software offerings).
... to Tog and the other complainer of the dock.
Yes, in 1984, when the Mac GUI was introduced, it was a pradagim shift from the traditional interaction with any computer.
But now, 17 years later, MOST people have had acces to a computer and are not total newbies. Even young kids have already interacted with other electronic devices that don't have a 'friendly' interface.
MAYBE, these Fitts Laws, et. al. no longer have the precedent that they had pre-1984 in the design of the first Mac OS.
The Dock is a tool. Sure you can pick it to pieces. But, if it works for most people -- it still works. Not that it is without failings or has room for improvement, but come on -- it's not the death kneal of Mac OSX either. --THERE IS MORE TO MacOSX THAN THE DOCK!
Let's all take three steps back and gain some perspective.
--trace mcniel
Personally, I fnd the Dock annoying, I hope Apple or some developer puts the trash back on the desktop, then gives me a way to turn the Dock off completely (not just hide it).
I'd be much happier.
I am fascinated by the things that this says about people. People such as Tog and those being more violent in their defense of him cannot accept change which is VERY BAD. However, those of us more like me who accept change such as this too easily do need to listen to some of the points that he makes.
Defense of the Dock:
The problem that many people make when analysing some of these issues is that a Windows Taskbar basically is the dock with less options. People say that the taskbar is labelled but when you get about 10 windows open with even a big resolution, the labells are incomplete and you are reduced to moving the mouse over it to see the full name (does that remind anyone else of the same problem that we have?) and this is more likely on a windows system because you MUST have everything in the taskbar. The dock gives you the option of size and lets you decide what you want to keep in it. I also find that, once used to using it, going to 9 is difficult. I have slammed my cursor into the base of my machine countless times on my 9 machine only to feel abandoned by a helpful utility. But enough about me.
What could be tweeked (I don't want to say "fixed" because it is NOT broken):
-some differentiation of document thumbnails, some (web site favorites) aren't as descriptive as they could be
-desktop trash can - personally I think that the Dock is the perfect place for this but some people like it where it was so give them the option, it shouldn't be too hard to implement.
-anchoring: I like the dock centered (I don't understand this motor memory, I have never seen it used properly accept for the very corners where NO OS puts anything) but many don't. It would be nice to see it working like a word processor allignment tool (left, right, center, justify).
Personally, I like it and I LOVE the revisions.
Stop being so violent, this is not a holy war, we are all on the same side,
~/indigo
Its not that I am violently opposing the dock, it just sucks right now. When Tog and other renouned GUI designers point out several main flaws in what will become one of the centerpieces of the new Mac OS, I think people should pay them their due respect and listen. Tog, Sircusa, and others have devoted thier careers to the study of User Interfaces, and Im pretty sure they know what they are talking about. The problem with people in this forum, as someone mentioned above, is that we are all computer savvy. We know workarounds when things dont work; we know where our file goes when it dissapears in a puff of smoke after removing it from the dock; we know how to create our own applications menu via the apple menu—most people dont. Tog's comments apply to basic instinct, basic nature. When an OS is good, you will inheriently know where to drag the mouse to get what you want without having to think about it. This is why we love the current GUI, and it is why it is so intuitive and good for beginners. Of course, the dock isnt impossible to learn, and for most of us, probably isnt a challenge at all, but because of the way it operates, I dont think it envokes that same intuitive feel as the current OS. I, for one, am excited for OSX, but it appears like, in the case of the dock, Apple is sacrificing some of this intuitiveness for a "cool look."
The task bar in Windows is unusable if you have more than 5 or 6 things open - you can't read ANY of the names because they're scrunched. That's why Apple went with icons only. Duh. For a man who knows so much, Tog has some pretty stupid observations.
Tog says:
The Applications menu needs to be restored.
Ê
I never use it. I do feel helpless without ProgramSwitcher. Let's hope this shareware gem gets ported to OS X fast.
The functionality of the tab menus should be restored
Don't use them either. Drop Drawers is way better.
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The Control Strip should be brought back
Sure, it's useful. Wanna bet how long it takes for some shareware developer to do it (probably the extensions strip guy)?
The trash should return to its traditional location.
Ê
I never drag things to the trash -- use the keyboard shortcut.
Tog says the Dock is a total disaster. Who cares? Did people really ever use Launcher? I don't. I'll be using something like DragThing or Drop Drawers.
If the Dock is the only thing we have to complain about OS X, then some people have too much time on their hands!
For those of you who like the Dock, just realize that some of the emotion here is because of the irritation factor in using the Dock: it can't hold as much stuff, it keeps moving the stuff around which is frustrating, and it pops up when you're trying to do something else --.
It's like an annoying, overhelpful but not very competent assistant who keeps poking his head in when you're trying to work, and moving things around on your desk when you're not looking, but isn't really capable of satisfactorily handling what you ask him to do either!
Who dresses in loud clothing besides.
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Clearly the Dock suits plenty of people just fine, and it also makes things easier for beginners, but it's not very flexible. I simply wasn't able to make it as useful as the Apple menu no matter what. This is not resistance to change, I was very excited about OS X. Loss of functionality is deeply frustrating no matter how you slice it.
I agree with another reader: "There is no separation of applications, documents, and other icons in the dock. There is no way to tell which document a given icon represents by looking at it. Open 10 applications and it gets way too crowded. ... I have 30-40 apps that I use regularly and have hierarchical aliases within my Apple Menu. How the h*** am I going to do this with the Dock? Everytime I run another application the icons move around, making it impossible to remember where something is located. ...blech. "
these *are* constructive criticisms, folks - apple needs to hear what's wrong if they are to fix it. Some great suggestions made by another reader - hear, hear:
3) The Dock is anchored to a corner, and can be on any of the three sides not occupied by the menu bar. [yes!!]
6) We should be able to hide the Dock as we currently can the Control Strip, via an obvious hotspot. [bye popups!]
7) Some additional organisation is needed. Using a constrained right/bottom Dock as a base, we would have the Trash on the right, launchable apps and docs to its left, all drives (not just removeable ones) to their left, running apps, and Docked windows/docs. ...the items that change most often will not move the items that usually do not change. [-But will this fix the real problem of too-limited space? maybe power users should be able to split Docks so that 'docked' docs/windows/running apps go to one screen edge, the 'permanent' dock to another -aka "multiple docks". KDE's method is handsome e.g.]
1) Return of the Apple Menu to a launcher. Infinitely expandable. Launching can be in the Dock, but it is just too limited for many apps/docs.
This guy has some serious bias against apple... did they fire him for incompetitance? If he wrote like he did in this article, they'd certainly have cause; on to the proof:
His #1 beef: When you move an object into the dock, it disappears. If you recieved no training with your computer, didn't read the help and didn't bother to look, that could be scary. Once. Unless you are really stupid. Just because something disappears into your dock doesn't mean it's gone forever.
#10, it's too big. It can take as little as 70 pixels.. most people run in atleast 800x600 these days, if not 1024x768. Thats not big. Thats tiny, and if you don't like it, you don't really even need it.
I'd write more, but I'm too tired of reading wags write their minor gripes on the internet, and wondering why no-one reads their column.
The future of the Mac is not yet stable. OS X will give the operating system a boost in stability, but if we do not attract new users to the Macintosh, the Mac may turn into a Amiga.
Having a good demo, may very well attract people to try the Mac. Having a good, easy to learn interface will keep them. We should not over look both of these and other factors when we look at the viability of the complete solution,
Power users will purchase add-on's to improve productivity, but beginning users very well may not. Making the productivity enhancements standard and easy to use will help the Mac market share to grow.
I personally love Mac OS X and the dock is an important part of this system. I think some of Tog's comments are valid and we as a Macintosh community should be more open to suggestions that are looking after new user experiences.
To the people who fail fail to understand the hostility of Mac users in response to Togs article, its because we love Apple and a dock (that some of us don't like -- most do) isn't going to slow us down from the next-generation MacOS we've been waiting for for almost a decade (Pink, Taligent, Copland, Rhapsody). i personally love the dock.
Tog is obviously bitter. worst of all is how Tog compared it to the Winblows Taskbar.... how dare he?!? THe OS X is nothing like the taskbar and most definatlely not ment to be. he is an idiot.
he might 1 good point though. look at the IE icon which most of you have on your docks. if you click the center of it, it won't open, you actually have to click the blue part -- thats bad. but at the same time, look at other icons on your dock: none of them have big, gaping spaces. its micrsofts fault, not Apple's.
another thing, for those of you who say Tog is some interface god because he's been doing it for 30 years: that means nothing. If he's been doing this for 30 years, he's been doing a bad job.
Mac OS X is not just a new OS, its a new concept
Tog is right. The Dock is dumb for all the reasons he quoted. And all new "concepts" are not right for Mac users. The right one here is not the Dock ,but the more user-friendly and more organized hierarchical finder interface, the Column View outlining where everything is. Easy to locate and find what you need, and differentiate what it is. Let's stick with that and do away with that Dock, a desktop dustbin in the making. New concepts are fine if they're cleaner.
Give this guy some credit for all his Apple and Mac experience through the years. He knows Macs and what Mac users want.
I beg to violently differ. Just because he's used them for a long time gives him no more credibility than anyone else, really. Steve Jobs, then, would be the messiah of "knowing what Mac users want." Even he has failed in some cases, and more often than not he has done an about face and fixed his mistake. Sometimes he has not. It's understandable, since he has an ego the size of Texas, but it's not good. There are people on this forum who have used Macs as long as Tog. Big deal he's used them for a while.
And also, he obviously has ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA what Mac users want. Almost every single post in response to this article has been "boy, Tog is a butthead. He just whines. I really like the Dock." Yes, some people don't like the Dock, and some people keep whining about how it breaks metaphors and is a bad example of HI work, but actually, the Dock does grow on you very fast.
I too find myself throwing the cursor to the bottom of the screen in OS 9. The Dock is just an alternative, and actually, this nonsense about Labels is overblown. Most likely, you'll put stuff in the Dock that you use all the time, and then you'll quickly memorize the location (3rd folder from the right). If you didn't know where a folder was in an Apple Menu filled with items, you'd have to quickly scan through the folders as well. Here, too, you brush your mouse across and find the one you want. It's really a lot faster than whiners like Tog make it out to be.
And some of Tog's points are very telling. There are ways to "pin" the Dock to one edge of the screen in later builds, so that point of his is moot.
He mustn't be on Steve's good side or he'd get the builds. Wonder why?
Go Mac from Action files has everything I need to lauch my favorite programs files etc. I hope they continue to update it to use with OS X. It's small unobtrusive and a joy to use!
Idiotic. I tried to find a better more politically correct one, but nothing comes close to describing this "sad, trivial and brainless" article. This article is so lacking in honest objectivity and my guess is I'm not the only one who shares this opinion.
I believe Apple should keep the dock. If nothing else, it's a fast window and app switcher, especially for people like me who like their windows maximized. IMO several changes should be made, at least as user options:
* Allow to move the application menu to the right, so that the File menu's always in the same place.
* Allow the dock to always occupy the whole breadth of the screen. the Apps start from the left corner, the trash and windows on the right and a gap in between.
* Allow all windows, open or not to appear on the dock, just like the Windows taskbar. I'd like to be able to go to the dock and make the window appear even if I don't remember whether it is just obscured by other windows or actually minimized.
The way you people apologize for Apple is ridiculous. Tog offered some logical criticism of the dock, and most of you attack him personally.
I for one agree with his criticism. I'm going to buy OS X and use it, but I dislike the dock for many of the reasons that Tog has articulated. Hopefully Apple adresses these issues with later versions of OS X, but for now we are destined to endure the dock for many years to come.
I just can´t undestand why some many people here in the forum get so bitchy about Tog. Personally I don´t know this guy and it doesn´t matter what he has done the last 3ß years. If his criticism is valid, then it doesn´t matter if he is whining or whatever. If someone loves the dock- that is great and go for it then. But don´t complain that others don´t share your point of view. Don´t be intolerant and insult others.
Who were part of the Copeland project. It a way, the shipping of Mac OS X is the ultimate sign of Copeland's failure (and the folks associated with the project)to provide us Mac users a modern OS without having to undergo the drastic change starting from the kernel up. When he critizes any part of Mac OS X, I no longer think of the critiscism as an honest, unbiased one, but of one that is tinged with bitterness and anger. Whenever that man drops another bad comment, should we be asking, "Well, what was up with you and your collegues at Apple not shipping Copeland?!"
Tog likes to analyze issues with a little pseudoscience, but he doesn't have a practical perspective or a view of the big picture. He is of the opinion that if you let HI people use their voodoo science that the project will be perfect.
In real life, engineers take many iterations to work the bugs out. Even if you followed Togs recommendations (half of which are nitpicking) you'd just open up more problems. He'd then rant about how you didn't take any of his advice and you'd be only slightly better off, if at all.
Of course, that's how real engineering is done, except without the bitterness that is very evident in Tog's article. He knows he can get published by slamming Jobs in a Microsoft friendly press, so IMHO he's just grandstanding.
Before he even starts, his reference to the Win taskbar is just plain wrong. His sucking up to the anti-Apple press is what has so many people here angry.
10. Flat out wrong, I'm using it now and you can resize it to less than 70 pixels tall.
9. Depends how users use it. Most users are unlikely to store dozens of docs in the Dock, rather they'll have a few favorite folders and a bunch of apps. Apple probably knows this through user testing.
8. Wrong. The zoom feature helps greatly, because I've noticed I easily recognize the smaller icons after seeing the larger icons.
7. Comparing menus to the dock is apples to oranges.
6. He doesn't explain why, and using "myriad hacks" as proof just shows people like to customize.
5. Hiding is a preference some people like. When did Apple ever offer it as a solution?
4,3. Good points, but hardly inherent defects of the dock. Hopefully an Apple engineer will have read this far without dismissing it as a rant.
2. The application menu is slated to appear in the Apple menu. Tog conveniently forgets that apple tried to make use of the upper-righthand corner (remember the balloon help icon?), but that 90% of users never noticed anything there.
1. Huh? So how does he propose to make it possible to remove items from the dock? Or is his number one complaint that he doesn't like a puff of smoke?
The most annoying thing about the dock is that it floats. At least let the user decide and put in a hot corner to bring it to front (like DragThing). I think it should be at the bottom of the screen like Windoze (yes, I really do!) and not cover part of any window.
I'm not so concerned about the titles as I have 6 DragThing docks and all just show icons.
The Dock is a joke. It is annoying on any monitor smaller than 19" at a high resolution. It tries to do too much in the wrong way. Kudos to apple for trying, but they failed. As he says, thank god OSX is a programmer's heaven and fixes and replacements for that joke will soon come in mass quantity.
with the guy who designed original MacOS Interface, COZ it's his baby, anybody's design other than his will suck (to him).
I completely disagree with tag, as I find that the dock makes launching my 'favorite' apps and documents a quick and easy task. However, I do agree that folders and other items with non-unique icons should have names. Names should be optional though, as that will only add to the space needed for the dock.
I completely disagree with tag, as I find that the dock makes launching my 'favorite' apps and documents a quick and easy task. However, I do agree that folders and other items with non-unique icons should have names. Names should be optional though, as that will only add to the space needed for the dock.
Tog is right - just measure your speed with a stopwatch and you will see that it takes _factors_ longer to get gui-stuff done with osx that os9. And Steve just killed our productivity to sell more coloured plastic.
Why can't anybody get used to change?? Now i know people love the mac UI and swear by it(Im new to the mac world, and to tell you the truth...i hate the current UI look) Change is good...trust me. Macs have been using the same look for over 16 years. While the look worked for all these years..its time to make a UI that modern, an OS that doesn't crash over a simple java applet. Aqua and OS X is going to change the way people look at macs, all my PC friends drool over the OS and wishes windows and linux preformed and looked like it. And I'm sure a lot of the OS X haters out there will love OS X once they try the final build.
Anyway just my 2 cents...Anthony
I read forums and Mac pages in the morning (Macnn, Macfixit, Macintouch, etc.) before I do anything else. I've posted to these forums, and for the most part have been helped when I most needed help. But one thing about them has always bothered me, and that is the general refusal to argue issues...rather, as in this group of comments, disagreement is couched in name-calling (Tog is an idiot, he's jealous, he's a whiner, he's a left-over, etc.) What Tog is doing is expressing an opinion about OS X. He's doing it from a basis that is not only personal, but also experiential. He knows something about designing GUIs. Frankly, I don't like OS X...or, rather, I like its stability, but not what it requires me to do in the way of navigation and file handling. I think the Dock is gimmicky, and would like to see something like Poweron's Action GoMac. But to express my views is not to impose them on anyone, and if anyone disagrees with me I'm willing to discuss the issue. Why the name-calling, why the hostility, why the ubiquitous application of variations on the verb "to whine" to anyone who criticizes some aspect of OS X? Does everyone out there really believe that OS X is perfect, so without flaw as to be uncriticizable? In forum topics that do not address specific problems, but instead center on expressions of opinion the lack of civility is general and indefensible.
I've been using the mac since the beginning. And, it was the fact that change was accepted and encouraged that made the machine not the pixels themselves. The doc is better than the Apple menu and the favorites menu item and the disks on the desk because they are in one place. The trash and drives don't get covered up by ever applications window. But more importantly, Mac people need to accept change and stop complaining about the small stuff.
The original mac UI wasn't great but was just good enough to criticise.
Tog can go over to windows and the .Net UI for all I care.
Yes tog is overcomplaining, but realise if you want something done, you have to complain, and the more you complain the better chance there is of it being fixed.
I think the dock is decent and beautiful, but simple things like slamming your mouse to the edge/corner is what makes the macos better designed than any other OS. If apple takes that away you might as well go to windows.
(Again, overkill statement, but shock people and they might listen!) Hopefully if apple doesn't fix these problems then at least it will leave them easily customizable.
Yup, transperent icons, lack of Dock item info, Dock over windows, those are pain in the proverbial. I think Apple will take note of what Tog has said, not all of it, but the stuff that obviously makes sense and improve the Dock. After all, we're not going to be stuck with MacOS X version 1 forever, right? They'll need this kind of feedback to create compelling upgrades in years to come. Well done Tog, but well done Apple too!
More like Top 10 reasons why I'm bitter that Apple didn't pay me big bucks for a consulting fee.
Get over yourself, dude.
Some of the comments on this board are good, well versed comments. Some are a waste of human effort.
Make your feelings known to Apple - they will make changes if the users make 'em aware. The Dock (I personally love it) is a great tool. If shrinking it down to 70 pixels tall isnt good enough than tough s*** - tell Apple. If you don't want it on your desktop, set it to hide. An option to remove all together would be great - but I believe this was one of Steve's gems and may be tough to rid it altogether.
I can't wait for 'Dummies guide to Mac OS X"
Based on the demo and screen shots, I was very suspicious about the Dock and would have subscribed to most of Tog's comments. After actually using it, I'm convinced that it is here to stay. I'm sure it will evolve in features and settings, and get further refined. But to everyone complaining about the dock, I'd like to say: Just give it a try, and chances are that it will convince you, whoever's "law" it breaks.
To some degree, I have to agree with Tog. But I beg to differ from his harsh standpoint though.
The Dock is beautiful, and does take up a fair bit of space on the desktop when unhidden. The magnification effect is cool but drives me dizzy sometimes. And yeah I agree with the sloppiness does interfere with my muscle-memory, sometimes I cannot seem to find the folder in the dock in the exact spot where I left it coz some other app has shoved it to one side.
There is sure room for improvement: eg. spring-loaded folders, controls, biased the dock to the side a little, eg.
Or best of all make the dock fully customizable for everyone's needs.
Tog makes a point, the Dock is far from perfect. But who ever said it was?
In my opinion Tog is right some of is points. However, I do agree that he seems to be whining a bit. I agree with the point that he could have titled his article more carefully to avoid the use of the word 'sucks'.
Let us also give him credit. He is a brilliant interface designer. Apple would be smart to take his ideas into consideration.
I think the Dock is problematic the way it has been implemented. It can be improved. I think Tog is a bit too unwilling to compromise here. You have to remember that Apple needs to sell machines and they want to make this new GUI look cool. Maybe we can get into Steve Jobs head a little bit here.
"Ways to increase market share"
Step 1. Come out with cool looking OS X that will attract windows users by the bushel.
Step 2. Make sure third party software developers are jumping on board quick enough to make the transistion worth while.
Step 3. Wait about 1 year and then re-evaluate the interface.
Step 4. Unlike the windows GUI actually improve the interface as you go along (How long have windows users been slaves to that crappy UI).
I don't know something like that. The point here is there are way bigger fish to fry than the dock right now. If you prioritize Apple's problems at the moment then you would see how low on the list the Dock becomes.
Why do people still listen to this guy? While he makes a few interesting points, it's still extremely clear from the overall tone of his writing that he doesn't really mind these points all that much; what he really hates is that yet another of the vestiges of his beloved design is being scrapped.
Point 10, about the Dock being big, is irrelevant due to resizing. Also, the point about floating is superfluous, because windows cannot resize over the Dock (and therefore, controls cannot be hidden in any way that makes it impossible to get them back).
Point 9 ignores an extremely important point: the Dock has no labels BECAUSE THERE IS NO GOOD PLACE TO PUT THEM. How many times does this need to be drilled into whiners' heads: labels waste so much space that, were they to be put in, they would render the Dock as worthless as Windows' Taskbar (which can't hold anywhere near enough items precisely because the labels waste space). Mouseovers are the best solution for this; it allows for labeling without killing vast amounts of space unnecessarily.
Point 8, referring to "pictures" versus "icons" is just plain ludicrous. The fact that an icon can suck has nothing to do with the number of colors it can have or the detailedness (or lack thereof). It all has to do with icon design. There is nothing Apple can do to control this. So get over this one, please.
Point 7, about the muscle memory, is interesting, however this, too, has been superceded. Yes, it is true that motor memory is not impossible. This is why the Dock is animated; it draws the user's eyes to the bottom of the screen to take stock of the new positions. This becomes a subconscious act within the first few hours, and then the user is never even aware of the problem again.
I will grant that the menubar is a different case entirely (no animation, plus it gets much higher usage than the Dock), and that something really needs to be done about this. But again, Tog's main complaint is the Dock, and the menubar is for another discussion entirely.
Point 6 about the Trash not belonging in the Dock is just plain whining. The Trash was moved to the Dock for a very good reason: universal access from any application. This benefit overrides any benefits that might derive from the Trash being on the Desktop, where it is extremely easy to accidentally hide, block off, or lose.
Point 5 about the hiding is a valid concern. This is why the Dock shouldn't be autohidden. However, Tog is blowing the problem way out of proportion, because very few users will ever turn this option on (this is why it's off by default).
Point 4, about Fitts' law... well, OK, I've got to give him that one.
Point 3, about holes in icons... this was fixed with 32-bit icons, with the transparency being decided by an alpha channel and the introduction of the 1-bit hit mask. Again, however, Tog is blaming on Apple what shou
I'm starting to think that you guys just agree with whatever Steve Jobs says. Remember, he's only human. He's a businessman, he runs a company, and I don't think that this fervent, near-religious loyalty makes any impression on him one way or another. If anything, it encourages this bizarre idea of his that he knows what people want despite what people say.
I have been using the Macintosh for twelve years now, and I use my Macintosh a lot. I do work with it all day long and often on weekends. I build web based applications and manage the three web sites for the hospital I work for. I work with Photoshop documents, Word documents, Excel documents, FileMaker Pro Documents, InDesign documents and Illustrator documents. I have to manage gigabytes of files, and I have to know where everything is all the time. I do real work.
In the course of doing real work, I have come to agree with the bulk of Tog's ten assertions about what is wrong with the dock. Note that he doesn't limit himself to the dock, but also points out other weird interface changes. How many of you tried to do real work with Mac OS X Beta? How could you not have had these same problems? I spent a lot of time missing the tabbed folders at the bottom of the screen. I have five of them on my Macintosh now: Applications, Internet, Multimedia, Utilites, and Servers. I used the tabbed folders to organize about seventy different items. I can't put seventy items in the dock, and even if I did, the eight servers would all look exactly the same.
Somebody made this comment: "Point 9 ignores an extremely important point: the Dock has no labels BECAUSE THERE IS NO GOOD PLACE TO PUT THEM." This is an very skewed way of looking at this issue. There isn't a good place to put the label because the dock wasn't designed to have labels. This by now means makes it obvious that labels are bad. If eight icons look the same, then you need labels. It's so obvious that it pains me to have to explain it. How can you be doing real work, and yet feel that labels are not important?
This isn't the whole argument, by any means. Has anyone read the article about icons by Frode Hegland (http://www.liquid.org/dock/)? He brings up some interesting points about what the icons are supposed to be doing and what they could be doing and then contrasts them with what they actually do in Mac OS X. I recommend it to those who can still think independently.
The important thing to remember is that the classic Mac OS has been around for years, and pretty much the only thing it has going for it is the user interface. Mac OS X solves some of the important issues that the classic Mac OS couldn't address (protected memory, speed, safe task switching, etc.), but does this at the expense of the interface. Why is that? Why are we being forced to completely change the way we work? How many of us have stuck with the Macintosh through the PowerPC transition specifical
It clipped my message! I'm never posting here again, no matter how stupid you people get!
twitch@nervestaple.com
Tog. Good points:
- holes in icons -very stupid, shouldn't be there.
- Fitt's law, very important, should be used. (it's one reason why the Mac Menu Bar IS superior)
- there are problems with the dock
Comments about labels:
There IS a good place to put them: optionally, OVER THE ICONS
It would be nice to have apps in the NEW apple menu (and also removed from the dock for more space) BUT you would have to scroll over log out and shut down every time you go to the apps on the bottom... not good.
My experience with the Dock:
At first, a bit weird. Now I can't wait to get rid of 9 and use the new paradigm.
Mac OS 9 is about 10 times better than any windows interface, BUT I am so sick of going to one corner to change an app, to another to get at nested control panels, then down to a strange control strip interface for some things, then opening a tab for another thing, then clicking icons on the desktop to get at an app not aliased somewhere else, then dragging something to the trash which is covered by 10 windows, then... WHY DO WE NEED SO MANY COMPLETELY DIFFERENT INTERFACES FOR OUR OS?
The Dock is an GREAT solution that many will not appreciate right away and it does have problems (that Apple is already fixing (BEFORE 1.0 I might add)) but if given a chance it will be indispensible. Really.
What bugs me most about Tog is how he keeps on sarcastically and snarkily looking down his nose at the need to demo and demo well. "Oh, this sucks for usability, but I guess it makes a flashy demo and that's obviously more important, snark snark snark." Please. Steve Jobs has a freakin' business to run, this isn't just some post-grad think-tank purity-of-ideals mental lab-partner-circle-jerk cloistered in some lotus-land of free-thinkers stroking their ivory towers. :-P
so Tog now has protected arguments and can flame multiple features of MacOS X in simultaneous threads. these improvements are useless without a good user interface, which i feel has been disregarded. for example, the Tog Forehead, which is a random collection of picturesque thoughts without labels. sure, you can scrub over the Forehead to get labels, but why not use more expressive, labelled thoughts to begin with? or the Tog a**, where these thoughts are apparently actually stored. how many beginning users are likely to have seen an actual a**, and would recognize one on the Forehead?
First of all, I think it's funny that the second poster on this thread complained that the artical is "all complaints and no contributions". Maybe the poster didn't notice that the end of the artical is ideas on how to fix each of his complaints. Furthermore, What I see too often on this thread is people (often using language degrading to themselves) bashing the writer. It is unfortunate that there are members of the mac community that are willing to write off this peace of constructive critism, from a source as reputable and knowledgeable so coarsly and quickly.
Tog is a has been, he had some great ideas in his time, but he is mistaken! He claims to be a user interface design specialist, but look at his crappy web site! Thats all the proof you need that the guy doesn't know what hes talking about!
I've only made it through the first 10 postings, but that's enough to see everything the mindlessly pro-apple folks have to say. It's your mindlessness that feeds Jobs ego in the first place.
To the "I'm starting to think" twerp: F*^k what you think! It ain't about listening to Steve Jobs, it's about finally having to use a version of Mac OS that has power as well as ease-of-use. To be honest, Apple and Steve Jobs are listening to your concerns, I just hope that by doing so, they don't cripple what I think is an OS 4 times better than OS 9! I think that Tog is a bitter twit who is using his rep to spread FUD on Mac OS X! I say it before and I'll say it again: If ya don't like Mac OS X then get a computer with Microsoft Windows ME or Win98.
Can't stand the truth: Their OS SUCKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! TO ALL OF THOSE MAC OS 9 LUDDITES: BWAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
10. The Dock is big and clumsy
The Dock sucks up 70 pixels minimum,
um, no. You can make the dock itsy bitsy, almost unreadable small.
9. Dock objects have no labels
The objects in the dock, as you can see above, do not have labels. That works fine in the demo, since every object shown is completely unlike every other object. However, put in six or seven folders next to each other and the user becomes clueless.
....because custom icons just dont work? Sorry, Tog
8. Identical pictures replace differentiating icons
Using pictures instead of icons is a bad idea.
...because know exactly what the doc is would be to easy?
7. Users cannot build motor memory
Because everything in the Dock jumps around when you add new items,
...so turn the magnification off. Too simple for a simple GUI?
6. The Trash Can does not belong in the Dock
This decision was so wrong that myriad hacks have already appeared on the net to address it.
Including one by Apple that puts the HD and trash on the DT.
5. Hiding the Dock just makes things worse
...that is assuming the things youmention are really problmes
4. The Dock flies in the face of Fitts's Law
I don't know Fitts Law, so he can have this one.
3. Dock objects have invisible holes in them
...got news for you Tog. 9.1 does it too.
2. The Dock usurped existing objects
..i am not even sure what he is talking about.
1. The Dock adds a whole new behavior
The Dock adds a whole new behavior: Object annihilation. Drag an object off the dock and it disappears in a virtual puff of smoke. This is the single scariest idea introduced to the Macintosh since the original bomb icon.
Actually, he may be right about this one.
Summary:
Is the Dock perfect? NO
Did I try to make my OSX Beta 9 like? Yep
Did I see the truth of the Dock and use it in its limited form? Yep.
BTW, nothing says you can't just stack the Desktop full of icons. seems to be everyones dumping ground anyhow. Tog is so particular he seems to forget what a disaster most peoples HD's are. 10 will help everyone eventually. Except Tog who is still kickin' it with 6.0.8 (because multiple finders are too confusing).
echo
Tog presents a compelling argument detailing exactly why he has reservations about OS X. He gives excellent reasons for his dislike for the dock. I agree with many of them, particularly with his criticisms about the dock's placement, lack of motor memory, and indistinquishable folders. The dock needs major improvements, and I have a hard time understanding why anyone could disagree with that. OS X is in its infancy and obviously all the rough edges have not yet been polished.
Does this mean that I think OS X sucks? Of course not. I've already preordered it. I think it is an impressive advance in consumer OS technology.
When I read the responses to Tog's article, and I see religious zealotry. Rather than attack Tog's arguments, many of you people attack HIM! You call him names, you accuse him of being jealous, you basically attempt to assasinate his character. If his criticisms are so weak, why don't you refute them? Because you cannot. They are sound arguments. I find it disturbing that so many people share this religious fanatacism for Apple; they put Apple on an ivory pedestal like a Greek God, and attack those who criticise Apple with an ignorant mob mentality entirely devoid of reason .
Don't any of you see that it is in Apple's best interest for there be criticism of OS X? Apple needs this, the mac community needs it. We must keep Apple on their toes so that they make the best products possible. Let the PC users hurl ignorant insults at Apple and Mac users, but let the loyalists critique Apple's efforts with the love of a parent scolding a child.
If enough of us complain, then Apple listens. Remember the puck mouse and micro-keyboard? Remember the lack of PCI slots? Apple is listening. If slack-jawed mac users blindly defended Apple's mistakes, then how will Apple know that changes need to be made? By reading reviews written by PC users on PCs for a PC audience? It's the opinion of Mac users that Apple values most, so please let it be heard.
Personally I don't like the dock - it's an interesting concept poorly implemented. I'd much rather see Windowshade and Control Strip return. As much as the icon are visually attractive, I want a fast, efficient OS, not a moving picture show with bouncing icons and genie smoke hiding - I want to save time not waste it.
My biggest complaint is the size - I know it can be reduced but if it's 'teeny weeny'? what good is it? How can I possibly identify between 10 different Quark docs I might have open? Windowshade is better, quicker and has the ability to trace full paths. The perfect solution would be a preference to choose between windowshade or dock
Tog's also right about the trash, get it back on the desktop. He's also right about docs disappearing when dragged to the dekstop - scary.
I don't agree with everything he says, but much of it's on the money this time.
Bwhahaha! Why are we listening to this guy? Didn't Apple decline during his tenure? His own team violates tons of common-sense interface principles.
Lets see: how about making a pull down menu (the Apple Menu) the repository of a disparate and unrelated functions (control panels AND the calculator AND the chooser).
Another: The control strip. A preferences click-access kluge that gets in the way more than the dock he hates so much. AND it doesn't have the sense to disappear when not in use without user action.
Finally: As a former NeXT user, I can tell you that file navigation in pre-X systems is a nightmare. How many windows to you have to open to get to your files? The brower is infinitely better for viewing the complexity of a hierarchical file system. In ten years, did this guy ever explore this poor design? Spring loaded folders are nice, but that's not enough to solve the fundamental problem of HUGE file systems.
IMHO, the dock has been awesome to use and it is only getting better. Sadly, this luddite can't yet comprehend that the NEW MacOS is going to change (for the better) how we use our systems. For example, we will now run dozens of apps at the same time and use them more interactively.
An intelligent analysis. Ten very good points. Constructive solutions. He can't help but be negative about something that is in fact poorly designed.
What makes me not to accept Tog's oppinion fully, is that in principle, tha idea of showing all the open things in some field is IMnsHO superior idea. Especially in a multi-document & multiprogram environment, where most users spend their time today.
What makes me accept Tog's oppinion, is that in most of the 10 points he's absolutely right. Especially when he points out the transparency holes ("Carefully reproducing a bug in the original Macintosh" as he points out), the Fitt's law, size (that's stupid to start the us of computer by resizing it's most important part) and functionality of hiding the dock.
I think, that solution should be:
1. Making first appearance of the dock smaller.
2. Creating hovering labels right over the Dock (not clickable)
3. Creating an option, when hidden Dock is still displaying those hovering labels. There should be possibility to manage things through the labels, so anything, that's beneath them is easily accessible. Maybe some tiny versions of the original icons shall be assignable also.
So, when the Dock is hidden, one can immediately point out, where the necessary item is and by moving to the lower side of the screen, he get's automatically the thing he need's.
Other thing is the "dragging out" behaviour. Something should be done about this.
Pictures instead of icons is also most dumb idea, I've ever came through. Just ask Yourself a question, why the moose or the cow on the traffic sign isn't photogrphed.
Forget Tog. The guy could find flaws with s**. In case you have been distracted by all the pop psychology waffle...
The real issue is the removal of the dogcow!
Yes, Clarus is gone. The little guy has barked his last bark. He has been taken to run free in the mythical farm that kids never really believe in.
APPLE HAVE KILLED CLARUS THE DOGCOW!
This is a far more important issue than being too stubborn to admit the Dock is actually useful. It is a matter of the soul of the Macintosh being ripped from its core.
I urge you all to sign this petition today, and make those Apple people who think they can play God, think twice:
http://www.PetitionOnline.com/sod/petition.html
Save Our Dogcow!
Put the apple menu in the dock. Like it or not, the dock is the new OS area, Menubar is for the active application.
Give us back the option of LABELS
Let us put the dock on any edge, tile it, stretch it and so on. If we want.
Make it object oriented AGAIN - each icon can only appear in the dock OR in a file window. Not both. Not two file windows at once.
THankyou.
Greg
READ THIS you morons: http://www.osopinion.com/perl/story/7122.html
this guy is saying exactly what i've been saying here for the last week. all you morons who criticized me can now kiss my a**, because you see that there are many of us who recognize your brownshirt newthink for what it is, and we will NEVER give up the fight for apple - WE are the real mac users, YOU are a bunch of pimply bandwagon jumping adolescents or geeks who dont belong on the mac in the first place. Go back where you belong and take Jobs with you, back to NeXT or wherever the h*** people like you are made. FIGHT THE SYSTEM! FIGHT NEWTHINK! Think for yourself - and remember, Jobs brownshirts, i'm right here, ready to jump in and kick your asses whenever I see your newthink!!!
For your information, the Dock has some of Mac OS Classic's Control Strip funtionality. Technically, if any control panel get copied to the dock, it will give the config settings just like the Control Strip does.
I think that we as Mac users need something new. For years, we have to convince Windows users to migrate over to the Mac, with very little or no success I might add. I disagree totally with Brian Toganzinni's crtique about the Dock. I "messed around" with Mac OS X and could not find any of the problems Tog had.
Back to Mac OS X: It's shaping to be a "programmer's paradise". I think folks are going to be amazed at how even Java programs run!
Dock Sucks! :(
The Dock DOES NOT SUCK!!!!!! :(
Well, let's face it, as absolutely beautiful as the Dock is to look at, it really *does* need considerable work in terms of usability. I think Apple will probably get it right eventually, let's all hope that until then there will probably be some hacks to do the job.
Tog makes some good arguments (holes in icons, the dock not being fully flush with the bottom of the screen). However, I find it rather ludicrous that his suggested fixes basically boil down to "Ditch the Dock and bring back all of the UI hacks that were added to Classic Mac OS over the past decade-plus." Quite frankly, OS X needs *new* things, because the average user is not going to even be aware of pre-emptive multitasking, Quartz, and protected memory when making the decision to buy or not to buy. The dock needs some improvement, true, but simply getting rid of it completely is a foolish suggestion.
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Funny
Funny how we were just talking about Jef Raskin