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School board picks Dell over Apple

updated 11:10 am EDT, Fri April 29, 2005

Board picks Dell

In a , Henrico County's School Board voted last night to distribute the PC maker's computers to every high school student and teacher next year, rather than renew its deal with Apple. Four years ago, Apple and Henrico struck a deal to give every middle and high school student a laptop. Apple, which submitted a bid to continue its high school contract with Henrico, still supplies the county's middle school students and teachers with laptops until next June. The board's vote gave Superintendent Fred Morton IV authority to move forward with a deal for 15,800 Dell laptops at a cost of $17.9 million over the next four years. Several selection committee members refused to answer questions about the decision until a news conference scheduled for later today at school district offices.

by MacNN Staff

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JeffHarris
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Joined: Oct 1999

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04/29, 11:18am | report spam | close Reply |
NOW they'll SEE...

... JUST how much MORE Wintel tech support, virus, spyware and security costs will be. Let's not discount poorly designed, CHEAP Dell computers!!!!

DeepDish
Forum Regular

Joined: May 2001

0

04/29, 11:31am | report spam | close Reply |
people are stupid

There are days I feel like giving up on society. Am I the only smart person left on planet earth?

Okonomiyaki
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04/29, 11:31am | report spam | close Reply |
Exactly...

A year or two from now it'll be nice to look back and see what a colossal mistake this will have become.

dennis
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04/29, 11:32am | report spam | close Reply |
Interesting case study

This may become an important Mac-vs.-Dell/MS comparison in real-world scenario. With one district using two different architectures, the number of variables is reduced.

My (pessimistic) prediction: With influx of PCs, support demand and costs grow to unmanageable levels, moving the board to decide supporting two platforms is too expensive. Board votes to move middle schools to Dell.

trbgln
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Joined: Oct 2003

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04/29, 11:38am | report spam | close Reply |
So much cheaper...

Hm, indeed, how much cheaper are the Dell's? I calculate 1133 US$ per computer. For that you can get ibooks as well.

tomato71
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04/29, 11:41am | report spam | close Reply |
sigh

some people just gotta learn the hard way...

iomatic
Mac Elite

Joined: Oct 1999

0

04/29, 11:45am | report spam | close Reply |
Here we go.

...

It's the beginning of the full dumbing-down of the US's student populous.

Oh well, it's Texas, anyway -- look what that state got us: stupidity at a Presidential level.

...

...

vickys_box
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Joined: Jan 2003

0

04/29, 11:45am | report spam | close Reply |
So much cheaper (2)

They have to buy all the extra software - pretendiPhoto, pretendiDVD etc.

iomatic
Mac Elite

Joined: Oct 1999

0

04/29, 11:46am | report spam | close Reply |
or...

Virginia, or whatever...

Same thing.

Let the flame wars begin!

...

IonCable
Mac Enthusiast

Joined: Apr 2001

0

04/29, 11:47am | report spam | close Reply |
hmmmm

Wasn't it Henrico's parents that complained shortly after the Apple deal that students were trading p***, ect on the computer. How are they going to feel when the computers are overloaded with it from viruses, spyware, and all the other junk that windows machines attract. I guess the Henrico IT department needed a boost in funding and personnel.

It will be interesting to see how this pans out, I hope the Henrico School Board has a rock-solid out to switch back.

Lateralus
Moderator

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0

04/29, 11:47am | report spam | close Reply |
Meh

Sucks for them.

aer
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04/29, 11:57am | report spam | close Reply |
Superintendent

This is happening because Henrico's new School Board and Superintendent are more conservative and less pioneer-oriented than the previous ones were. Dell probably gave a better deal on paper as well just like what happened this time last year in Arlington County, Virginia. Apple k-12 Education makes a ton of mistakes, that's just my observation. I am curious, any ideas on how much this is going to cost training wise and infrastructure wise? Henrico has traditionally been all Mac, even down to the X Serves in each of their schools..

Mixotic
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04/29, 12:01pm | report spam | close Reply |
I don't feel bad for the

This is what happens when you let a school board make technology decisions rather than the technologists. I guarantee the board and superintendant are primarily Windows users. The really sad thing is that they think they're doing everyone a favor and improving on "compatibility". Oh well....next year, when their IT budget balloons so much that they have to cut football to cover the costs, it'll all be crystal clear.

Can you fault people for being stupid? I don't think so....they have to learn somehow.

jarod
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04/29, 12:03pm | report spam | close Reply |
Morons

Time to pull your kids out of this dump!

iChick
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04/29, 12:04pm | report spam | close Reply |
Uh oh.

The Apple Education sales folks can't be happy right now.

c. haynes
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04/29, 12:11pm | report spam | close Reply |
This is good thing...

If this is a case which can be closely documented it will be great. Someone needs to do a graduate study on it. If what we believe is true, that this will be a disaster for this school system, then nothng could be better than to take a high profile case and point out what idiots these administrators are. If the Dells work out well for them then we'll know something else. I think some Dell computers are made pretty well but, hey, guess what, they run Windows.

budster101
Baninated

Joined: Dec 2004

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04/29, 12:16pm | report spam | close Reply |
A VICTORY FOR DELL!!!

Thank God they got this major victory. Who lost? Not Apple.

You know who lost?

- Teachers - Students - Parents - Administration

They'll have to use those pieces of SHI T.

I have one bit of advice for all of them. Memorize TECH SUPPORT's number....

history1me

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04/29, 12:17pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
I would love to see

A study on this. Better yet, make into a documentary.

trbgln
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04/29, 12:20pm | report spam | close Reply |
Henrico county evalution

I found this on the county's web site, a report of their ibook program. http://www.henrico.k12.va.us/Announcements/tech_eval/Henrico%20County%20Report_22Feb05.pdf

some conclusions (copy and paste):

All of the students would like to see the technology program continue, but they have different operating system preference profiles. More middle school students than high school students prefer the Apple Macintosh while more high school students than middle school students would like Windows-based laptops. Teachers: The teachers report that their workloads have increased due to the implementation of the iBook program, however they feel that it is vary valuable and should be continued. Critical problems for teachers include the fact that not every student brings his or her laptop to class every day, that a small number of students do not participate in the program, and their need for additional training. The teachers are divided on which operating system they prefer. Administrators: The administrators feel that they spend a significant amount of time supporting the program, including monitor students for inappropriate website access. They believe that the iBook program is valuable, enjoy using their iBooks, and would like additional training. Parents: The parents support the program, and even those whose children do not participate believe that it should continue. The parents of racial and ethnic minority students are especially supportive of the iBook program. Most student households include a Windows-based personal computer. While the parents recognize the magnitude of the need for iBook repair, their out-ofpocket costs are minimal. They are divided on the fairness of the $100 deductible and on whether HCPS should spend more on the technology program. They prefer Windows-based computers. The wealth of information collected in the surveys will provide the School Board with answers to their key questions. It also suggests avenues for further development of the program. --------------

So especially HighSchool students would like to see other operating systems like Windows. Why is not answered. Perhaps because there are so many PC games out there that can be "shared" amost friends?

interestingly, the most commonly used software is "Virtual Share", whatever that is...

srobhall
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04/29, 12:23pm | report spam | close Reply |
Problem with IT?

It sounds like they had problems with an under planed, funded, staffed, or skilled IT department. I'm a big Mac fan and think they would be better served by Macs. However, I have a set up a centrally managed Windows 2003 Server with Windows XP clients network that doesn't suffer from viruses, spyware or "all the other junk that windows machines attract". It just takes more money, time, and vigilance than the equivalent Mac solution. So this will only be a good case study if they have the same problems with IT Management. (Which they probably will).

racerex68
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04/29, 12:28pm | report spam | close Reply |
give 'em 6 months

Dell might have gave them an offer they couldn't refuse, but they will soon learn that they made a huge mistake.

Roehlstation
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04/29, 12:29pm | report spam | close Reply |
Should have called me

They should have given me a call. I worked for a school system, that had Macs and went to PCs within one year they were renewing their deal with Apple. Tech support alone was disruptive to students and teachers,not to mention the cost involved.

jpollard
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04/29, 12:31pm | report spam | close Reply |
Let em know

Here's an email address for the bosrd if anyone is interested:

schoolboard@henrico.k12.va.us

And the Superintendent:

Fred.Morton@henrico.k12.va.us

Sure, it can't do much good now that the decision is made, but it might open their eyes to potential problems they're going to face down the road.

paulc
Junior Member

Joined: Aug 2000

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04/29, 12:37pm | report spam | close Reply |
Think...

of it this way... they are creating tens of thousands more windroids to keep on attacking winblowz systems (aren't a good majority of the folks that cook up this win-mal-ware 13 year old boyz?). So while Mac lost the battle, the war may get even more interesting.

hndpaul
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04/29, 12:41pm | report spam | close Reply |
Games anyone?

As a technician in a UK school who is getting behind efforts to inject some Apple technology into the existing infrastructure, I can only guess that the reason (the "unknown reason") for the interest in Windows among students is games.

It can't be music- Macs handle that superbly. Can't be surfing, email, or office productivity either- Macs do all that well. It has to be games (and I don't see Dell machines doing that for them anyway).

OK- (cynical side of me walks away) there may be a small portion of the staff and students who really do prefer Windows to Mac OS and haven't gotten on with Macs because they may not use them enough at home etc etc. And it may appear "on paper" that Dell offer better discounts to education (I know, I recently ordered 15 Dell laptops for the school and they *were* cheap). And I'm not sure we could (as a school) get all the software teachers and students use for the Mac. But those are pretty subjective arguments anyway.

As for hardware and support- Macs can't be beat. The Macs at school have never needed my attention, and only now as the Mac uptake is growing are we thinking in terms of authentication against the AD and other connected issues. But the students who use them love them so much there is a waiting list to use them!

No- there is more to this decision than meets the eye. I would look at who is on that board and would be surprised if there isn't a connection with Dell at some point. Look for that smiling Michael person :-)

kw14
Junior Member

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04/29, 01:11pm | report spam | close Reply |
re games

Didn't think you can play much games on a laptop. If that's the reason, them high school kids'll get an eye-opener.

mrgaskell
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04/29, 01:46pm | report spam | close Reply |
IT Job Protection

I hate to say it but I work in an all PC district that is quickly fading Apple out of their schools. And for what I do at an elementary school, PCs are fine. Can you do movies and digital media as easily? h*** no! But they work for the most part and with GhostCast and a file server you can simply erase and restore PCs when they become buggy (which they do).

Four things hurt Apples in schools right now:

1) Their educational sales staff SUCKS. I bought $50k of Apple product the previous year and NEVER was contacted once about my purchases. 20 iBooks, a cart and 15 eMacs and not even a "Hey, how's everything going?" No marketing, no nothing. Dell? A call every month or so. Stuff in my box all the time, curriculum ideas, things of that nature.

2) Apples last too long. At my last school we still has LCII running as WP machines! People get on an old machine running System 7 and they think that Macs are junky. I think it actually helps Windows that PCs are obsolete and cannot function properly after 3 or 4 years. That also coincides with most IT equipment turn-over rates.

3) Not actively marketing how inexpensive Macs really are. Can you get a Dell for cheaper? Not really. When you configure them the same, I can get an eMac for a much cheaper price than each Dell workstation. It costs my district right now almost $1k for each GX270 mini with a 15" LCD. And that is with (and I don't get this part)a whopping 40GB HD and only 256 of RAM. Why does a networked computer need a 40GB drive?? You can get eMacs for around $650 with a combo drive and no 56k modem. Buy another 256mb of RAM on bulk at $20/piece and that is a $330 saving per computer for a machine that will be running in 10 years!

4)IT job protection. School IT departments are notoriously pro-Windows, even if they prefer Macs on a personal level. Why? Job security. If you don't spend it, you lose it in government. And if your support guys are standing around and there are no big emergencies when some school's entire lab crashes, you lose your job.

IT loves Windows b/c it is always f@@@ing up and crashing, forgeting drivers, suddenly not detecting the network device, etc., etc. Windows is good for business.

Overwhelmingly Macs are better, cheaper and have a longer life span. But school districts are the antithesis of efficiency, so we continue to support Windows.

mrgaskell
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04/29, 01:47pm | report spam | close Reply |
IT Job Protection

I hate to say it but I work in an all PC district that is quickly fading Apple out of their schools. And for what I do at an elementary school, PCs are fine. Can you do movies and digital media as easily? h*** no! But they work for the most part and with GhostCast and a file server you can simply erase and restore PCs when they become buggy (which they do).

Dr.Funkenstein
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04/29, 01:49pm | report spam | close Reply |
Evolution

You Mac fanboys sound like Sour Grapes.

This Georgia schoolboard has simply EVOLVED to take advantage of the superior CREATIONS that are Dell Laptops.

/sarcasm mode off

robguz
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04/29, 01:52pm | report spam | close Reply |
The real world

I guess they want these high schoolers to experience the real world that adults to everyday at work with their horrid PCs. Blue screens for no reasons, bizarre slow down, hideous interface with no consistency whatsoever, viruses, etc. Terribly designed programs. They gotta harden those kids before it's too late.

chas_m
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04/29, 02:03pm | report spam | close Reply |
I hope ...

I hope the "tech" reporters STAY on this and find out the TRUTH about the TCO of Apple vs. Dell machines. I feel sorry for Henrico's students, but at least they'll feel less restrained to abuse the machines ... after all, they're JUST Dells, you see those everywhere ... they're nothing special.

driven
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04/29, 02:14pm | report spam | close Reply |
victory for ...

Victory for Dell ... a loss for the students. :-(

Eccent
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04/29, 02:16pm | report spam | close Reply |
Turnkey solutions

In response to mrgaskell's comment of: "But they work for the most part and with GhostCast and a file server you can simply erase and restore PCs when they become buggy (which they do)."

Some company released something similar to GhostCast about a year ago called Macshield that sounds like a great solution. Unfortunately, their website doesn't say much about it nor list price.

http://www.macnn.com/articles/04/01/07/macshield.protects.macs/

porieux
Baninated

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04/29, 02:24pm | report spam | close Reply |
well

texas is like bizarro world so this actually makes sense.

benhur
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04/29, 03:10pm | report spam | close Reply |
dammit Apple

Well, I guess we'll know the full details later today. Would have hoped that Apple would have done what it takes to get that deal.

Well, those Henrico folks will surely regret this one.

aer
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04/29, 03:29pm | report spam | close Reply |
Re: Problem with IT?

to srobhall: Henrico's problem isn't necessarily the IT department. It basically was a mad rush to be the pioneers in something that was new and not very well planned from the outset. When the initiative rolled out in 2001, HCPS had the support of Apple engineers, Cisco engineers and several other very talented companies, as well as a giant influx of cash from an extremely supportive Superintendent and School Board. In addition, they had a pretty well-honed internal IT staff that have historically been all Mac. But it was OS 9 they were using for the first few years as OS X's catalog of Edu Apps grew larger. And as we know, OS 9 was far from being a trouble free OS. Also one mistake I believe they may have made that makes their situation unique among most other school district "laptop initiatives" was that Henrico's top brass insisted on having students take the iBooks home every night. Well guess what happened! Stuff broke. Things got stolen, p*** got loaded, iBooks got used by little brothers and sisters, crushed by buses, left on football fields, dropped in bathtubs, etc, etc. The top brass was very staunch and unfliching about leveling the "digital divide" by allowing the machines to leave school premises, but they paid a cost for this- and so did Apple. And then, finally, I bet the iBook Logic Board recall program hasn't helped Henrico's opinion of Apple given that many of the machines that Henrico purchased were iBooks with faulty CD-Rom trays and logic boards. This is a very complicated issue as you can see and I don't think the IT staff at Henrico is to blame. Infrastructure, yes, that was a problem the first few years. Support- yes that was a problem too (1 tech per 800+ iBooks?!!). Lack of planning on the part of top brass. Sure. All issues. But HCPS had and still has a very competent IT team. At this point if I were a parent I might be questioning the Superintendent. How much is it going to cost to convert Henrico's all Mac infrastructure to Windows/Dell? At what risks or benefits to students and teachers? Are Dell cardboard motherboards and cheap parts going to survive anxious middle school student abuse? Hmmm...

Todd Madson
Mac Elite

Joined: Apr 2000

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04/29, 03:39pm | report spam | close Reply |
Another thing...

Another thing you might have overlooked is this school district is based in Texas.

So is Dell.

I'd wager someone on the school board is married or related to some Dell Exec and they've put this in place to support "one of their own."

Remember "don't mess with Texas". I bet that is a good part of it. Why support a California based business when you can do good for your home state?

For what its worth, most of the Dell machines I've seen that are portable are heavier, slower and less reliable than the competition (IBM, Sony, etc.) but the screens are actually half decent if you can secure the operating system. Dells are very common where I work and if they break they're more or less easily replaced.

The other issue would likely be related to the fact that MrGaskell is absolutely correct: job security. I work in that industry and its a fact.

c. haynes
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04/29, 03:40pm | report spam | close Reply |
Georgia??

Hey Dr. F. it's not a Georgia school it's a Virginia school that's in deep water. Georgia's Cobb county just went for up to 63,000 iBooks over the next few years. Ding dong.

aer
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04/29, 03:41pm | report spam | close Reply |
Henrico is in Virginia

Henrico is in Virginia, near Richmond. Not in Texas.

edtekker
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04/29, 03:50pm | report spam | close Reply |
Laptops go home

aer, all of the student laptop programs I'm aware of let the students take them home. It's a major part of the success, and there are usually far fewer problems (breakage, theft, bad files or code installed) than the districts plan for.

I'm surpised, though, that Apple lost this. I can only assume that Dell is selling the computers at a loss. (To better understand how Dell can do this, watch the very informative whiteboard video called "Why Dell is a Bank" at http://news.zdnet.com/2036-2_22-5604972.html)

aer
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04/29, 05:31pm | report spam | close Reply |
Re: Laptops go home

edtekker: My experience with educational laptop deployments is that districts do not let the machines go home because of the problems you mentioned (breakage, theft, bad files, etc...). They are stored on mobile carts or in lockers and distributed during the school day. What Henrico did was so groundbreaking because they were the first large school district (80 schools??) to allow the machines to go home from the onset and not "pilot" them at certain schools only. Not arguing with you, just expressing my experience. I'd love to see a real study on this though..

klinux
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04/30, 05:20am | report spam | close Reply |
Flamebait

Slow day? Hence the flamebait article? Tsk tsk.

trbgln
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04/30, 06:22am | report spam | close Reply |
Explanation

Explanation now available at http://www.timesdispatch.com/scripts/isapi_srun.dll/servlet/Satellite?pagename=RTD%2FMGArticle%2FRTD_BasicArticle&c=MGArticle&cid=1031782446074&path=%21news&s=1045855934842&DPL=JvsIDSP7Dg0m5hcQJfsKFjvlCSE%3d&tacodalogin=yes (use login)

Key point:

Henrico expects laptop transition to be smooth $4 million price difference a key factor in schools' switch from Apple to Dell

---

I like this comment: ... a sophomore at Hermitage High School, said he is pleased with the planned switch to Dell, because it has a better operating system.

"They're better than what we have now," he said.

perhaps they used os 9

sluxx
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04/30, 08:56am | report spam | close Reply |
Response From HCPS

Here's the link to the school board's response:

http://www.henrico.k12.va.us/Announcements/Dell/index.htm

Apparently another factor was that "everyone wanted Microsoft Office," and Apple only comes with AppleWorks.

Only time will tell...

eddd
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04/30, 01:51pm | report spam | close Reply |
they're in for some hurt

The college at which I teach issues laptops to the students. Art students get Macs and the rest get IBMs or Dells. I've seen cruel and unusual things done to these Macs (I teach art). Broken everything, from hinges, screens, batteries, you name it. Even with a pro-Mac IT department, there seems to be a small but steady stream of students with performance problems - mainly due to poor maintenance or a misunderstanding of how the system works (like loading 1500 fonts). They take a compter-tech class to introduce them to computer technology, but it's Windows-based!

But overall, the Macs perform well and need relatively little maintenance. The IBMs and Dells, on the other hand, require an endless stream (or river) of attention from the IT department. From getting printers to print and other networking problems, to virus and spyware issues, to regular hardware abuse, there's a constant line of PC users at the IT help window. A Mac user in line is a rare sight, though - we tend to handle our own issues.

Ralf_Wiggum
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07/25, 09:00am | report spam | close Reply |
Re: Response From HCPS

"Apparently another factor was that "everyone wanted Microsoft Office," and Apple only comes with AppleWorks."

If an entire school county and its board members are to stupid to figure out that they could just get the Mac edition of Office rather than converting their entire laptop base to Dell just to use Office, then I don't see how anyone can have faith in their ability to educate anyone else. Morons.

mytdave
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07/26, 09:22am | report spam | close Reply |
Doesn't anyone think?

If the reported numbers are correct - 23,000 iBooks @ $5M per year -vs- 15,800 Dells @ $17.8M for 4 years, then that would make the Dells $65 per laptop per year MORE expensive than Apple. Are the reported numbers correct? Maybe someone didn't look closely at the TCO? Does Dell's price include support or just machines?

Does the school district realize the issues they're now going to have with viruses, spyware, and vulnerabilities? Has anyone there even considered the problems they'll now have with illegal P2P networks/downloads?

Microsoft Office?!?! Are you serious? That's not a reason to switch, that's an excuse! Do they not know there is a MAC version of Office? They could have arranged for education licensing of Mac Office. Even better, they could have installed OpenOffice/NeoOffice on the Macs for free.

This is a serious learning lesson for all involved. Apple for not being on the ball enough to win the lease renewal, and Henrico for the technical disaster this move will become. I hope this is watched closely by everyone so others will hopefully learn not to make the same mistakes.

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School board picks Dell over Apple

updated 11:10 am EDT, Fri April 29, 2005

Board picks Dell

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NOW they'll SEE...

people are stupid

Exactly...

Interesting case study

So much cheaper...

sigh

Here we go.

So much cheaper (2)

or...

hmmmm

Meh

Superintendent

I don't feel bad for the

Morons

Uh oh.

This is good thing...

A VICTORY FOR DELL!!!

I would love to see

Henrico county evalution

Problem with IT?

give 'em 6 months

Should have called me

Let em know

Think...

Games anyone?

re games

IT Job Protection

IT Job Protection

Evolution

The real world

I hope ...

victory for ...

Turnkey solutions

well

dammit Apple

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Another thing...

Georgia??

Henrico is in Virginia

Laptops go home

Re: Laptops go home

Flamebait

Explanation

Response From HCPS

they're in for some hurt

Re: Response From HCPS

Doesn't anyone think?

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