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http://www.macnn.com/articles/04/07/08/six.step.plan.for.apple/

BusinessWeek offers 'Six-Step Plan for Apple'

updated 12:40 pm EDT, Thu July 8, 2004

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Six-Step Plan for Apple

Alex Salkever's includes reducing pricing ("price trumps style in the computer market", abandoning the all-in-one concept of the iMac, PC trade-ins to encourage Mac purchases, a new "try-and-buy program" to allow customers to try out hardware without any risk, and using Mac OS X's strong security selling points to help Mac sales: "The latest round of attacks on Microsoft software is terrifying. If using a Mac means servers in Russia are less likely to harvest my passwords and offer my identity to the highest bidder, I think that's an offer I'd like to hear more about."

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Mac Elite

Joined: Oct 1999

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07/08, 01:01pm | report spam | close Reply |
another Load of

One, from what I have seen from the folks that monitor and report on computer security issues, Macs are just as susceptible to attacks, it's just that viruses and and such aren't written for the Mac. Buy and try and PC trade ins just aren't something I think Apple computer can sustain. I think we will see a headless imac in Sept. Lower prices, well that's a continuous debate, it really depends on your market. Too many people think they have the answer to what Apple needs to do. They seem to just take up space on the internet, kinda like me right now.

Nostromo
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Oct 2001

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07/08, 01:06pm | report spam | close Reply |
Apple advertise?

Good luck getting Apple to advertise the advantages of OS X...or anything else other than the iPod.

When was the last time you saw a commercial for the iMac? The G5? OS X (never)

PookJP
Mac Enthusiast

Joined: Jan 2001

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07/08, 01:08pm | report spam | close Reply |
Good ones...

I quite like these suggestions, provided the one regarding cost/style doesn't suggest sacrificing style. Apple obviously needs to bring their prices down, or at least offer a truly affordable model, if they are going to get into the true mainstream.

The try before you buy idea is fantastic! There is so much misunderstanding and misinformation about the Mac platform that I think it would greatly benefit the company to let people try the product. I'm confident OS X could sell almost any PC user who is entertaining the idea of switching.

scotty321
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Nov 1999

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07/08, 01:16pm | report spam | close Reply |
Apple Advertising

That is soooo true about Apple advertising! Why have they never run an advertisement for Mac OS X? Why did they only run one very short-lived G5 advertisement? Why do they not advertise ANYTHING except for the iPod?

hdog
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Apr 2002

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07/08, 01:38pm | report spam | close Reply |
Six responses

1. People always, always, always pay more for good style.
2. There are dozens of companies competing as the "affordable computer." The Mac continues to sell and **make money** as the excellent computer.
3. By including everything in a system (iLife, FireWire, Bluetooth for laptops, etc.), 3rd party developers can take advantage of a higher lowest common denominator. Plus, it puts pressure on the other computer manufacturers to include those features as well.
4. How well has Dell's iPod trade-in been going? Doesn't it look desperate? And who in their right mind would buy a PC for $1000+ and sell it for $200 a year later?
5. You can test drive everything at the Apple Store.
6. Selling security would put Apple in the center of the hackers' bulls-eye. Why advertise a fact that anybody interested in security would easily discover? Any fool knows that you never say "Bring it on" to terrorists.

These sound like five ways for Apple to lose money, and one way to invite attacks.

David Esrati
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Jun 1999

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07/08, 01:41pm | report spam | close Reply |
What good is try before?

Unless you include a copy of MS Office- what good is try before you buy?
That ploy might have worked in 1984 when the Mac came with MacWrite and MacPaint- and it was all you needed- but now, without Office- to prove compatibility- it's a waste of time.
The Mac advantage and benefit are still ease of use, lack of frustration- which haven't been addressed since, oh, 1986.
The elite of Cupertino assume that everyone is like them- and want to buy Porsche design and performance- while the market buys Chevys, Fords, Toyotas and Hondas.
If you want to switch people- don't make them give up their 20" monitor- after having to spend $1600 on the cheapest "headless" mac- and still having to buy all new software.
Maybe if you wanted to make the switch- you could get Adobe, MS and Macromedia to allow people to crossgrade from PC to Mac for the price of an upgrade.
This marketing stuff isn't that hard- just stop trying to do award winning ads- and think about ones that actually sell.
A headless $500 iMac is a must. A $700 laptop is too (and not just refurbs). Dell has Centrino's - Apple has G3's use them.
Not everyone has to have a G5- they do need to experience the iLife though- and the ease of OSX.

hayesk
Professional Poster

Joined: Sep 1999

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07/08, 01:55pm | report spam | close Reply |
Re: Wat good is try befor

A G3 chip does not cost $400 less than a G4 chip. Simply making a G3 iBook doesn't mean you can sell it at $700 without going broke.

Same with the headless iMac. Do you really think Apple pays $300 for the CRT in the eMacs? Taking out the screen would, at most, drop the price by about $100.

cdaveb
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Nov 1999

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07/08, 01:55pm | report spam | close Reply |
Security

Although a good deal of the security problem on Windows is exacerbated by the quantity of machines available to attack, there is a more severe security problem at the root of Windows than on the Mac, and if the Mac were to enjoy a larger market share, there'd be more issues, but not nearly as many as on Windows. There are a lot of stupid, dangerous things enabled by default on Windows, and seriously poor security decisions made in major Windows products. This is made worse by the fact that most Windows users use the same exact program for everything (what % of Windows users use IE, Outlook, etc.), making it easier to write something to exploit most people. On the Mac, there are a lot of alternatives for most types of things, and Mac users are more comfortable choosing an application that fits them best, whether for email or web browsing or what have you, which makes it more difficult to target the population as a whole.

The Mac is not perfect securitywise, but OS X is more secure than Windows, market share aside.

slipperfrog
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Joined: Nov 2002

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07/08, 02:11pm | report spam | close Reply |
re: ads

It's probably because they figure the iPod ads will sell more iPods than G5 ads will sell G5s.

I wish they would advertise their other products. They should at least be running general brand awareness ads or ads to promote their stores.

z10n
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Oct 2003

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07/08, 02:17pm | report spam | close Reply |
Response to the responses

1. If people paid more for style, then the mac would have more marketshare, plain and simple.
2. Profit now does not equal future profit. Not attempting to gain marketshare is a detrimental busness strategy in the long term.
3. 3rd parties have less to work with (not more) if the OS includes most features people need (i.e. "good enough"). Further, the lowest common denominator is the computer with the lowest price, not "lowest price and better features". If people wanted more features then they would buy a more expensive computer.
4. I don't know how it's going, but trading in an iPod is a whole lot different then trading in a computer. An MP3 player with a decent amount of space can last a really long time, whereas a computer is obsolete the minute it's purchased. If three years down the road you are able to get $300 for your PC, you would be doing pretty good. Plus it's an incentive not only to buy a new computer, but to make it be a mac.
5. How so?
6. Unlikely. Unix/opensource is a thousand times more secure then windows, despite the fact hackers love unix. It's also unlikely that hackers will even notice the mac until the mac has enough marketshare for their attacks to make any difference. In this case, you DO say "bring it on", because the more vunerablities found, the more fixes can be put in. Security experts know that the best way to test your firewall is to attempt to hack it. Better that apple's security team is kept on it's toes then trying to cover up any potential threats.

chas_m
Moderator

Joined: Aug 2001

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07/08, 02:21pm | report spam | close Reply |
Re: Six Responses

hdog NAILS IT ON THE HEAD.

I sure am glad Alex Salkever isn't running Apple. It would be gone in a year.

Many of the "ideas" he suggests have been tried in the past to disasterous results (anybody here remember the "test drive"?). Salkever demonstrates here that he really doesn't "get" the company -- Apple is not about and hopefully will never BE about "computers for dummies." Apple is about and SHOULD BE about selling exceptional computers with an exceptional OS to above-average consumers. Nobody gives Rothchild this sort of grief because they don't produce a $12 table wine.

In the 50s, they called this "snob appeal." Apple has it, and we're damn proud of it. Apple does, in point of fact, make computers for "dummies," but in the main their efforts are rightly directed at the elite. I shudder to think of a world in which nobody tried any harder than Windows.

That's not to say that there aren't some things Apple could do beyond what they're doing to expand their market -- there certainly are. But Alex Salkever doesn't have a freakin' clue.

ecrelin
Junior Member

Joined: Oct 2000

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07/08, 02:28pm | report spam | close Reply |
3 right and 3 wrong

I read the article and he was right on 4, 5 and 6. Good marketing ideas could make a big difference. But on the first three he is all wet.
1. First the average price for a computer sold through last year was $1241. That puts Apple's core consumer products in the right range. Their laptops are way cheaper in a true and fair features comparison. And guess what? Let's compare the backorder lists for the mini iPod vs. the Dell unit or anyone else's, price over style, you are all wet.
2. Wll there really was no 2. it was a run-on about the costs in No. 1.
So, 3. Make the iMac screen detachable if you must but the days of having to deal with a couple of clunky pieces with their own power and interface chords are hopefully short. The very successful eMacs are general consumer products, not just aimed at schools like they were at first, of the eight I have seen in people's homes four replaced PCs due to price/performance comparisons of new units available.
Conclusion, How can you possibly say that XP is cheaper, and to the first poster here, you must be ignorant about the technology behind virurses if you think Apple's system is anywhere near as porous as Windows. Again cheaper?!? Maybe you do your own system work but most people hire it done and I have sat for literally hours reinstalling XP because it was too compromised by spyware and the like (not my call, M$ suggested the reload), restarting countless times when a full reinstall of OS X takes all of 30 minutes which I've never done on my machine since the OS X beta over three years ago, every upgrade took with 0 glitches and I've never had a kernal panic* let alone a crashing problem. I don't even have virus protection on my machine, maybe you thnk I'm stupid but I haven't sent dime one to Symantec or McAfee and I haven't experienced minute one of downtime. these aren't costs of ownership? there are a lot of people who make their livings off selling M$ products and they will also dig in their heels before switching as there is no channel markup and spiffs in the Mac sales world. Apple's enterprise products are far and away the best price/performers ask the Army and their planned new supercomputer. XGrid integrates and manages Unix and Linux machines in the same cluster. Unlimited users for $1K. When people who should have a clue begin to smell the coffee we won't have to read too much more of this drivel.
*you M$ers will find out what a kernal is if and when Longshot ever sees the light of day or when you fianally give up and get a real *nix based operating system.

z10n
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Oct 2003

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07/08, 02:39pm | report spam | close Reply |
Apple shareholders

should really get on apple's case for not advertizing OS X. Along with high prices for macs, the lack of OS X advertizing is the single biggest reason failing of apple right now.

In response to chasm, your comment about "computers for dummies" doesn't make any sense. Apple sells iLife as one of their main products: designed solely for consumers. It's dummies who need things to be as brain-dead simple as apple designs. So most certainly apple is selling computers for dummies. Not a bad thing, but really. Why should apple limit their selling to ANYONE? Aren't macs of good enough quality for BOTH "dummies" as well as elite hackers? It doesn't make any sense for apple to cut out one or the other. Macs are for all people.

I disagree of your opinion of what apple should be about. Apple marketing (and their pricing BTW) would have us believe that macs are designed for above average to elite users. But what ever happened to "the computer for the rest of us"? Why can't apple have their cake and eat it too? In other words, what apple SHOULD be about is bringing the most complicated and powerful technlogy into the realm of the average user. That's the whole essense of what the mac is about.

Instead, apple has structured themselves as being an artistic instead of technlogy-oriented company. My opinion is that either Steve Jobs has made apple elitist to match his ego, or that apple is physically uncapable of making cheap computers. It's pretty easy really. If you can't bring down the price of a product, give it a flashy exterior, and market it for rich people as being stylish. That way, you don't have to bring down the price, because rich people will accept any price you throw at them.

testudo
Forum Regular

Joined: Aug 2001

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07/08, 02:45pm | report spam | close Reply |
advertising

First, Apple's tried advertising many different aspects. i don't think anyone liked them (then again, I don't know what you people want). Please, explain to us idiots how do you advertise an OS? They tried explaining these in the switch ads, and, again, you people hated them. I know. Apple should do a commercial where everyone flies around! That's it! As for the computer commercials, they haven't had any new computers to advertise (plus, again, you all complained about the G5 through the wall commercial). I know, there's some of you out there who want 'spec' commercials (the all new G5 has a 1.25 GHz frontside bus aan hold 8GB of RAM, not to mention the cool looking box!). Sort of like with so many other things, there's so many people who think they 'know' how to advertise better, but they really have no clue HOW to do it or make it effective (wait, I got it, we have a horse f*** in front of a woman holding a candle, and watch her face burn off!).

As for the virus ads, the PC-fanboys will complain that it ain't true, as the Secunia results show mac OS X is even more dangerous and vulnerable than Windows XP. Oh, and three people in britain will get it pulled from there because it can't be proven and its misleading.

mbryda
Senior User

Joined: Mar 2002

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07/08, 02:56pm | report spam | close Reply |
Agree w/the Article

Everywhere there are Dull ads, showing their junkboxen. Imitate them. Show someone organizing their photos, editing video, etc.

Show an iPod + Mac as the best combination for your music.

Show a digicam + Mac as the best combination for your memories.

Show a videocam + Mac as the best combination for your legacy.

Do what Kodak is trying to do - sell the lifestyle. After all, Kodak's tagline is "Share Life".... Show people with a Mac it's just that easy and you can spend more time with your loved ones.

You have to get the word out there - show people what can be done.

I love the trade in option. Many people hate what Windows has become and would love the chance at a new computer. Make it - recycle your old computer and get 25% off your new Mac - s/w, perhiperals, computer. It may cost you in the short run, but even if it costs Apple 1 billion, the resulting surge in marketshare would be great. And then you will have customers for life....

Sheesh, Apple could do a lot better than they are doing - people know about Apple, but they don't know how much better things are on this side of the fence.

Like Kevin Costner said "If you build it they will come". Show people why they should get a Mac over that Dell that they see advertised 1000x a day. Beleive me, that Dell isn't a good computer by any definition, but you would think so by the ads.

Drop the elitest BS and market to everyone.

It's about time shareholders hold the execs to the task of increasing marketshare. After all, they are the owners of the company. You don't need Jobs to have a successful company (heck, Billy Gates has the personality of your Dead Great Grandfather), you need someone (anyone) with charm and stage presence....

klinux
Senior User

Joined: Jul 2002

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07/08, 02:58pm | report spam | close Reply |
Starting from the bottom

"4. How well has Dell's iPod trade-in been going? Doesn't it look desperate? And who in their right mind would buy a PC for $1000+ and sell it for $200 a year later?"

I will grant that Dell's scheme is harebrained. However, real-life sales data have showne that people like and do buy or upgrade to those $750 PCs every other year as opposed to buying a Mac for $1500 and keep it for three years. The fact is that Apple wants you to buy more units more often (more profit to them). You, if give a choice, would upgrade your Mac every two years or so because you don't want to be stick with a three year old machine. However, neither will happen because the entry cost is too high.

"5. You can test drive everything at the Apple Store."

Sounds good in principle but 1) most people don't care. 2) of those who care, few can afford it, and 3) cost per acquisition is high due to high retailing costs.

"6. Selling security would put Apple in the center of the hackers' bulls-eye. Why advertise a fact that anybody interested in security would easily discover? Any fool knows that you never say "Bring it on" to terrorists."

So are you saying Apple is not secure? Or that it is somehow more secure because it is not targeted. If people want to say Apple is more secure, which most people here would agree, then it would only be advantageous for Apple to advertise that.

jonbwfc1
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Nov 2003

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07/08, 03:30pm | report spam | close Reply |
Advertising Mac OS X??

You can't use Mac OS X without a mac. Why advertise OS X seperately? Since the two are synonomous, any advantage you can use to sell OS X can also be used to sell Mac hardware which, most likely, makes Apple more money than selling OS X does.

As to the initial suggestions..

1) Is reasonable, if shortsighted. Macs could be cheaper. Heck, Rolexes and Ferraris could be cheaper too. But Ferrari won't stay in business if it decides to compete with Ford on price, because Ford will always be able to use economies of scale to be cheaper. Similarly, Macs simply cannot be made as cheaply as some PC that's lashed together in Taiwan for buttons. That being true, Apple are always going to lose on price. Sometimes the only way to win is not to fight the battle.

2) Abandon the all-in-one. Well there is some logic to that, but I'm not sure it will actually make spit difference in real terms. If someone already has an investment in PC hardware, they probably also already have an investment in PC software and PC knowledge. That makes them inherently not a good prospect for Apple. Pandering to that minority while giving up a nice USP (ease of setup) in the process doesn't seem entirely smart to me.

3) PC trade-ins. Yes, I'm sure every PC owner would like Apple to take some of the depreciation hit on their hardware for them. Like I'm sure that Apple shareholders would let it go on for about 10 seconds before screaming blue murder. Notice none of the PC makers offer trade-in when you buy a new PC? Wonder why that is..

4) Try before you buy - either ask for a $1000 dollar deposit or write off the 10-20% of the hardware you give out which will come back busted. If it comes back at all. Geez Louise.

5) Emphasise OS X's good points - as I said, you can make OS X a selling point for Mac hardware and make much more money.

Let's be honest - these suggestions are all standard playbook - sell it cheaper, make it like everything else.. they're standard tactics in a commoditised market, whih is obviously what the analyst thinks the PC world is. And of course, in terms of the windows PC, he's exactly right. These would be great tactics to emply at Gateway if they wanted to bite into Dell's marketshare, or whatever. However it shows a fundamental ignorance of both the Mac market and how it relates to that PC market as a whole. Macs are not commoditised products, nor do they strictly relate to the PC market. As I suggested in point 1) Apple will never be able to compete in a commoditised market, they simply aren't big enough. What they can do is do what they are doing , which is differentiate their products from the 'commodity' market in the same way Aston Martin or Denon do. Will Apple ever own 50% of the computer market? No. Never. Not going to happen, unless Jobs finds a genie in a lamp. Will Apple continue to make money? Quite probably. Would they make money

booboo
Mac Elite

Joined: Oct 2000

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07/08, 03:46pm | report spam | close Reply |
Yawn.

As usual these analysis are about 18 months out of date.

The eMac is competitively priced, Apple products are not too expensive or over-priced. These are not Fords, they're BMW's.

There is a product missing in Apple's range - basically an eMac without a screen but with an AGP and a PCI slot or two - iServe, if you like - but equally suitable as the centre of a home video/DVD/multi-media centre.

Apple stores are probably better than a try and buy - imagine all those newbies screaming when they can't find the Start menu.

What all these PC users want is Apple's cool, freedom from M$ but Windows functionality, at budget PC prices.

Dream on, it doesn't work like that, thankfully. and Apple will never sell as many boxes as all those Wintel makers combined, so Apple has to offer something better for a pretty minor price hike.

big deal. Get over over it.

t_hah
Mac Elite

Joined: Dec 2000

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07/08, 03:50pm | report spam | close Reply |
They got this one wrong..

"Yes, Apple's operating system has some ease-of-use advantages compared to Windows XP. But Windows offers enough convenience for most people at a lower price. "

t_hah
Mac Elite

Joined: Dec 2000

0

07/08, 03:53pm | report spam | close Reply |
Clarification

I hit the post button too early...sorry...

I think they got their facts wrong.
"Yes, Apple's operating system has some ease-of-use advantages compared to Windows XP. But Windows offers enough convenience for most people at a lower price. "

Mac OS X costs 129 USD vs. XP's 299 USD (outpost.com)

mbryda
Senior User

Joined: Mar 2002

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07/08, 04:07pm | report spam | close Reply |
You're out of touch

"However, real-life sales data have showne that people like and do buy or upgrade to those $750 PCs every other year as opposed to buying a Mac for $1500 and keep it for three years."

Which people are these?

* Businesses are on a 3-5 year cycle (and companies are having a HARD time coercing the upgrade of the 1.4-2 Ghz boxes from 3 years ago).

* Nobody I knows upgrades their PC's every other year. Heck, I know people still working on 350Mhz PC's. They work for them. Most are on the 3-5 year cycle as well.

* About the only ones that upgrade every 2 years are gamers, and they spend more than $750.

* The average PC sales price this year is still over $1000 ($1100, IIRC), so not many are buying those $500 boxes either.

Apple has this myth that their machnes are expensive. However, if they have ads that say "This eMac is $799 with iBooks @ $1100", it will do a lot to dispel that myth.

When they see that POS Dell @ $599 after $200 rebate that can't do what a Mac can do @ $799 with no rebate, they will get the Mac, esp. if it's put into perspective as being easier and better. All is easily done in 30-60 secs.

David Esrati
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Jun 1999

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07/08, 04:17pm | report spam | close Reply |
good ads..

Show how an idiot can shoot pictures, video, make a slide show in minutes with music-
Everytime I go somewhere on vacation- I mesmerize people with a slide show at the end of the day- and they say they could never do that on their computer-
and it's just iPhoto with iTunes.

Try that on a PC.

Never mind try reinstalling the system.

and- if Apple can't learn to make a $500 box- they don't deserve to be in the computer business.
There isn't much proprietary stuff left in these boxes-
and the cost of G3's in HUGE volume would be a lot less than the way they buy them now.

mbryda
Senior User

Joined: Mar 2002

0

07/08, 04:38pm | report spam | close Reply |
Try before buy is simple

Simple - have them plunk down a credit card. Don't return it or return it busted - you get charged. Simple. Happens all the time in business.

Or just have a 30 day, no restock fee policy.

klinux
Senior User

Joined: Jul 2002

0

07/08, 06:15pm | report spam | close Reply |
mbryda - the anti-Dell

"However, real-life sales data have showne that people like and do buy or upgrade to those $750 PCs every other year as opposed to buying a Mac for $1500 and keep it for three years."

Which people are these?
************************
These are the people that consistently buy PCs that you consistently deny exists. Is it not a fact that Apple has a declining share of computers shipped. Put it simply - this just means that out of every 100 computers that were sold, more and more people are buying PCs instead of macs.
****************
"Nobody I knows upgrades their PC's every other year."

Yeah - just because you don't know mean they do not exist.

****************
"The average PC sales price this year is still over $1000 ($1100, IIRC)"

Stop makingup #s. The average price was $717 more than a year ago. You are trying to say it increase by 50% since then? Let me be the first to call your BS. http://news.com.com/Low+prices+drive+March+PC+sales/2100-1042_3-999721.html

************
"Apple has this myth that their machnes are expensive. However, if they have ads that say "This eMac is $799 with iBooks @ $1100", it will do a lot to dispel that myth."

Yeah, OK, Mr. marketing genius. Apparently everyone at Apple and every computer consumers are idiots. If only you point out the light to them, the world would be 110% Apple. Steve - hire mbryda right now!!! Oh by the way, the lowest PM is $2000 with a whopping 256 MB of RAM and 80GB HD? Cheap! The lowest priced LCD display? $1200 cheap.
**************
"When they see that POS Dell @ $599 after $200 rebate that can't do what a Mac can do @ $799 with no rebate"

For your information, that POS Dell would be $399 after rebate. And for the majority of people out there who e-mail, web surf, and occasionally word-process - there is little difference between the two beside the price point.

And as for the POS factor - I know you have enountered many POS Dells. Big whoop. My company is a (mostly) Dell shop and we do not have the problem you are seeing. Furthermore, numerous surveys have put Dell at the top for customer satisfaction. They are the same surveys that gave Apple high score too. Either you accept the fact that Apple and Dell both have satisified customers but that Dell is cheaper or both Dell and Apple are POS. You can't have it both ways.
*************
"All is easily done in 30-60 secs."

Yes, yes, never understand mrbyda's brilliance. All hail the king.

iamnoone
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Jul 2003

0

07/08, 07:55pm | report spam | close Reply |
About shareholders

I hear many of you calling out to the shareholders of apple(which I am one) to pressure apple to do all kinds of things. Perhaps a little explanation is in order for you kiddies....A) As long as a company is making money and the share price is rising because they are making money, then there is no reason to get all upset with management. Sure making more money would be even better, but if things are going well then there's no reason to rock the boat. In fact, these days on the street, one is lucky to own a stock that is doing as well as Apple right now. Also, apple would pretty much be DOA now if it hadn't been for steve jobs coming back. So like him or hate him, he's the reason that apple is still in the game at all. Could things have been done differently??? Sure, but the fact remains that apple is very healthy financially and will be in the foreseeable future, increased market share or not. Market share really is just a bragging right...a mine's bigger than yours, if you will. It's irrelevant if the company is doing well.
B) Like it or not, Individual shareholders don't hold that much power when it comes to making company policies. Sure, we get to vote on certain issues, but the decision making is left to the managers and the board. As long as these entities deliver than it's impossible to get the majority of the shareholders to rise up against them.

Personally, I have no problems with how the company is being run right now. I do acknowledge that improvements could be made, but many times improvements are made and you just have to be patient. Apple as a company will continue to thrive regardless of their market share. It is the case now as it has been in the past and how it will be in the future....why this is not acceptable to a lot of people is beyond me. Apple will never be the king, but if we are all happy with their products and they remain a profitable company, then who really cares!!

Al Buterol
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Jan 2004

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07/08, 08:11pm | report spam | close Reply |
another tack

Mr. Salkever's tone and comments imply that he has never used a Mac.
From his perspective apparently the only "good" thing about Apple is OS X.

1-2) if indeed low cost trumps style, rather than produce a whole
new line of hardware the obvious solution is to port OS X to the x86.
this way apple can maintain their tradition of top quality hardware, with style.

3) Mr. Salkever offers no reason or explanation for his opinion on this point.
I seriously doubt if he has ever used an all-in-one.
I selected an imac for my work machine, and have purchased an imac
and emac for home use. These devices fit my needs and budget.
Obviously I am not the only one. There will always be a market for these
units, if only for people who know what they want and what they are getting.
If Mr. Salkever knew any apple history he would realize that
the all-in-one units have traditionally cost less for what they include when
compared to component systems. All-in-one units are and have been Apple's
answer to Mr. Salkever's points 1 and 2.

4) is just silly. you don't make money by paying a bounty on garbage.
an ipod is worth over $100. a Dell is not IMHO.

5) "try and buy" only helps convince those who don't understand what they
are buying. high-end users like Virginia Tech and the Army already
have made their choices on the basis of performance/price. coercion is
the domain of Redmond, not Cupertino.

6) more soap. windows' endless litany of gaffs and *designed in*
vulnerabilities ought to be enough to convince that anything else is more
secure and a better choice.

kw99
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Nov 2001

0

07/08, 09:13pm | report spam | close Reply |
Re: another Load of

>One, from what I have seen from the folks that monitor and report on computer security issues, Macs are just as susceptible to attacks, it's just that viruses and and such aren't written for the Mac.

Even if Macs are "just as susceptible" to vaporware viruses (viruses are a technically possible but don't exist), Macs ARE in fact MORE SECURE precisely because "viruses and such aren't written for the Mac." The reason why these potential viruses don't exist is irrelevant.

Alex Salkever is absolutely right that this is a strong selling point. There are so many security issues on Windows and so many viruses that it becomes difficult for the average consumer user to cope without an IT department. On the Mac side, even the security vunerabilities that are announced by the scare-mongering security firms (and not immediately plugged by Apple) are not exploited... not even once so far.

However, should Apple formally advertise this as a selling point? NO. Doing so will (1) challenge the "vandals" to create viruses that target Mac OS X. They don't do it for money. An advertised claim by Apple that its OS is more secure than Windows will attract virus creators. And (2) such a claim may make Apple liable (as in lawsuit) if in the future a damaging Mac OS X virus is created and spreads before Apple can take action.

It is far better to just let "word-of-mouth" and "free advertising" from columnists like Alex Salkever point out the superior security of Mac OS X.

As for the other points in the BW column, they are pretty obvious... nothing new (except maybe a Try and Buy program). And what's this about stopping all-in-one Macs. iBooks and PowerBooks are all-in-one Macs. I think the next iMac will be something that is readily portable (like a laptop and unlike the current iMac/eMac) but needs to be plugged in (not battery powered) and large enough physically to support the cooling needs of the current G5 chip.

mbryda
Senior User

Joined: Mar 2002

0

07/08, 10:55pm | report spam | close Reply |
Listen here Kluser...

"Yeah - just because you don't know mean they do not exist. "

Again, show me the people. You forget I also do PC repairs and most of the machines we see are 2-3 years old. Few are new and few want to upgrade every 2 years. That's the facts. Sure, more PCs are being bought, but those are 2nd, 3rd PC's and ones to replace 3-5 year old PC's...

"Stop makingup #s. The average price was $717 more than a year ago. You are trying to say it increase by 50% since then? Let me be the first to call your BS. http://news.com.com/Low+prices+drive+March+PC+sales/2100-1042_3-999721.html"

While I couldn't find desktop #'s, the average notebook is well over $1000... See here:

http://zdnet.com.com/2100-1103_2-5168116.html

I'll even quote it for you:
"The average selling price for a notebook was $1,370 during January. It was slightly lower on a year-over-year basis--January 2003's average selling price was $1,380--but it increased noticeably from December 2003's $1,334, Baker said. This means that people stepped up to more expensive machines in January."

Not sure about desktops - we may have to wait for the 2004 #'s.

"Yeah, OK, Mr. marketing genius. Apparently everyone at Apple and every computer consumers are idiots. If only you point out the light to them, the world would be 110% Apple. Steve - hire mbryda right now!!! Oh by the way, the lowest PM is $2000 with a whopping 256 MB of RAM and 80GB HD? Cheap! The lowest priced LCD display? $1200 cheap"

Hello? Anyone home in your pea-brain? People are voting Laptop. Apple's laptops are quite competitive.

The biggest trend we are seeing is people are ditching the CRT and getting LCD monitors. Mostly with new computers. Hmm, if I could get a better computer that let me do what I want for a little more than another, I'd go with that. Oops, I did that 2 years ago - iMac. Haven't looked back or missed the upgrade fallacy of my whitebox homebuilt PC's....

Most people don't upgrade (gamers excluded) - they just buy a new box when the old one gets too slow. They may upgrade RAM and HD space, but that's about it....

"For your information, that POS Dell would be $399 after rebate. And for the majority of people out there who e-mail, web surf, and occasionally word-process - there is little difference between the two beside the price point."

There would be a lot of difference. 256MB ram on a De-Celeron with shared memory struggling to run XP home and any other apps. That's a great system there. And not to mention Dell consistently benchmarks at the low end of the spectrum and you have a great computer. NOT!

"And as for the POS factor - I know you have enountered many POS Dells. Big whoop. My company is a (mostly) Dell shop and we do not have the problem you are seeing."

You

mbryda
Senior User

Joined: Mar 2002

0

07/08, 10:59pm | report spam | close Reply |
Part Deux

"And as for the POS factor - I know you have enountered many POS Dells. Big whoop. My company is a (mostly) Dell shop and we do not have the problem you are seeing."

You're lucky then. Their satisfaction ratings are starting a slow decline and the problems with them are mounting. Where I work we're (unfortunately) switching from IBM to Dell. HUGE MISTAKE. The laptops they have are utter garbage compared to the IBMs we used to have. The desktops are not much better - slow and chintzy. And they didn't even get a good deal on them. It will keep desktop support busy. If we would have stuck with IBM the technology is built in to help users and reduce the workload of the helpdesk. But, someone got the bright idea Dell was the way to go.

Oh well, in 3-5 years we'll probably see the mistake and oust them for good.

" Furthermore, numerous surveys have put Dell at the top for customer satisfaction. They are the same surveys that gave Apple high score too. Either you accept the fact that Apple and Dell both have satisified customers but that Dell is cheaper or both Dell and Apple are POS. You can't have it both ways."

And numerous BBB-type organizations have put Dell at the bottom.
And the FACT that their machines, when benchmarked with like machines are poor performers in most configurations.
You have a POS machine, plain and simple. Mediocre at best.

Lots of people buy GM cars and trucks. That does not make them the best quality or even good cars/trucks. It just means a lot of people love mediocracy and poor products.

LouZer
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Nov 2000

0

07/08, 11:51pm | report spam | close Reply |
Couple o' things

Never mind try reinstalling the system.

Oh yeah, why the h*** would you want to advertise that? "And when things go bad with OS X, no problem, just put in the system CD, reinstall the system in an hour, and your off and running". In case you don't understand the general thinking, people would stop paying attention after the "go bad".

Try before you buy is a stupid concept for computers. First, there's still the 10% credit card fraud, good bye computer, they'd be worried about. Second, how many people are really going to do this. I guess as many idiots who "take the car home" before they've actually bought it (stupid people). Plus, it didn't work before (it was done before, you know, just like those 30 minute "Macs are easy to use" infomercials, remember those, you people!).

Second, most of the so-called great ad ideas here HAVE ALREADY BEEN DONE BY APPLE! Go back 2 years, 5 years, 10 years, and you'd see all these so-called great ideas and it certainly doesn't seem to have caused a boatload to come marching over.

if indeed low cost trumps style, rather than produce a whole
new line of hardware the obvious solution is to port OS X to the x86.
this way apple can maintain their tradition of top quality hardware, with style.

But they lose the "ease of use/plug and play" tradition, having to deal with so much more on the compatibility side. And, keep in mind, Apple would have to pay to get the driver support for x86 hardware, most manufacturers aren't going to do it on their dime (they don't now, why would they for x86)?

Oh by the way, the lowest PM is $2000 with a whopping 256 MB of RAM and 80GB HD?
Actually, this is one of those "damned if you do, damned if you don't" thing. Apple gets ripped for not sticking 2GB of RAM in their base machines. Yet, if they did put that in standard, they'd get ripped by those who want to buy it with minimal RAM so they can buy their own (cheaper) RAM. There's still those who remember (fondly) the days you could get a Mac without memory or a harddrive.

dru
Senior User

Joined: Apr 2002

0

07/09, 01:30am | report spam | close Reply |
Test Drive Didn't Work

Apple tried this at least twice and it was a massive bomb both times. It is something of an annoyance to have to "give up" a perfectly good LCD when you decide to upgrade from one iMac to another (for example) but I'm not convinced a headless iMac will be a massive hit. The problem with the FP iMac is that the design is too advant-guarde. This is why the eMac made sense. It was more "traditional" in the sense of the old CRT iMac. I'd hate to see Apple abandon cutting-edge design just for sales. And besides, it's not like the Cube was flying off the shelves people. *THAT* was your "headless iMac" and it was a bomb despite a great deal of chatter and interest. The damn thing was simply too expensive.

Apple does need to advertise more than simply the iPod. I can't escape DELL or even Gateway ads on TV. Why isn't Apple promoting their stores? I was just at the local Mac user's group and the question came up if there was more than one Apple store in town. Since this is a major metro area, and the group has hundreds of people, Apple's clearly falling down on advertising.

klinux
Senior User

Joined: Jul 2002

0

07/09, 02:57am | report spam | close Reply |
$2000 256MB RAM 80 GB HD

Oh by the way, the lowest PM is $2000 with a whopping 256 MB of RAM and 80GB HD?

Actually, this is one of those "damned if you do, damned if you don't" thing. Apple gets ripped for not sticking 2GB of RAM in their base machines.
*******
No, I actually never hear that argument at all as everyone knows it is cheaper to get RAM elsewhere. Nevertheless, people do expect that a Pro machine with a dual CPU to not come with the same RAM/HD combo available on the $900 eMac or $500 PC.

klinux
Senior User

Joined: Jul 2002

0

07/09, 03:20am | report spam | close Reply |
mbryda the rhymer

Your wit never cease to amaze me. klinux to kluser? Celeron to De-Celeron? Is that suppose to be clever?

So you are stuck in a small company where you have no control over the decision making and fixes Dell all day - sounds like you have a vendetta against Dell and some personal issues. I am sorry to hear that. Nevertheless, you are trying to extrapolate your limited experience to the entire industry.

This is like if you work in a Volvo repair shop and comes to the conclusion that Volvo is an unsafe POS.

In any case, it still does not change the fact that you seem to have the perfect solution and everyone at Apple and every computer or car or whatever buyer are just idiots. Let's say for a second that IBM are better than Dell and will reduce your workload. We also know that IBM cost more than Dell. You don't think someone else up there ran the numbers and figure out YOU cost less than going to Dell?

Oh, lastly, you drive a BMW?

mbryda
Senior User

Joined: Mar 2002

0

07/09, 07:31am | report spam | close Reply |
Bzzt, wrong again

"So you are stuck in a small company where you have no control over the decision making and fixes Dell all day - sounds like you have a vendetta against Dell and some personal issues. I am sorry to hear that. Nevertheless, you are trying to extrapolate your limited experience to the entire industry."

Actually a quite large (3000+ Desktop, 200 server) organization. I'm one of 3 in the server department and have full control over our servers. We buy only IBM for our servers (the Dells we inherited are true POS's) and are exempt from the corporate desktop rules, so we still use IBM. And before that, I did and have done PC repair for the past 10 years.

So, I'd say I have quite a bit of experience. On average, the most reliable boxes are well screwed together whiteboxes....

"We also know that IBM cost more than Dell."

Actually, it doesn't. Both have systems only @ $799 and up. And IBM's tools, when properly implemented (easy to do) would reduce the calls to the helpdesk, increase client satisfaction, and make management easier. I know - we implement them on the server side. And from what I hear about the decision to go with Dell, it was based on laziness (Dell would "manage" the inventory) rather than cost savings.

"Oh, lastly, you drive a BMW?"

Nope. Infiniti.

mbryda
Senior User

Joined: Mar 2002

0

07/09, 07:37am | report spam | close Reply |
Apple Stores

"Try before you buy is a stupid concept for computers. First, there's still the 10% credit card fraud, good bye computer, they'd be worried about. "

They could do a "valid only at Apple stores or authorized resellers". When the card is present, the fraud rate goes down dramatically. Sure it does happen, but the lat time I bought something at an Apple store, they seemed pretty strict with the card sales....

"Second, how many people are really going to do this. I guess as many idiots who "take the car home" before they've actually bought it (stupid people)."

You'd have to ask GM - they are the ones promoting the 24 hour test drive. I would think it would be a hit.

" Plus, it didn't work before (it was done before, you know, just like those 30 minute "Macs are easy to use" infomercials, remember those, you people!). "

Inofmercials have an air of sleeziness and cheeziness to them. It doesn't have to be an infomercial length. Just ADVERTISE MORE. Put the Mac on every friggin prime time show for a month. Advertise price, the Apple # to order, how easy it is to do cool things. ADVERTISE SOMETHING OTHER THAN THE IPOD...

waffffffle
Mac Elite

Joined: Sep 2000

0

07/09, 09:53am | report spam | close Reply |
Um...

"There's still those who remember (fondly) the days you could get a Mac without memory or a harddrive. " - LouZer

You mean when Macs used to boot off of floppy disks? Apple is not the kind of company to sell stripped down computers. Aside from the RAM issue, Apple's computers ship with far more and better hardware features than the competition. I think that Apple just needs to bump up the minimum RAM that they ship with their machines. I feel that 512 should be the minimum on all Macs because OS X is very RAM hungry. I think Apple should also keep their machines as close as possible to current pricing with the increased RAM. This increase would go very nicely with Apple's trategy to be seen as a "high end" or "luxury" computer manufacturer.

testudo
Forum Regular

Joined: Aug 2001

0

07/09, 11:58am | report spam | close Reply |
Re: umm

You mean when Macs used to boot off of floppy disks? Apple is not the kind of company to sell stripped down computers.

No, I mean you could buy an apple computer (say, like a 9600 or an IIci, do I look like an historian?) without RAM or harddrives (why get a slow hard-drive if you're planning on using a high-speed SCSI setup and tossing the thing anyway?)

But if you don't remember those days, I'm sure you remember the days when buying a new Apple computer meant you still had to buy (a) a keyboard (!), (b) a video card (no on-board video, either), and (c) an ethernet adapter (Apple had on-board ethernet, but it didn't actually include the transponder or something, you needed some wacky device to plug into the port to get onto a network).

I think there's a lot of people (esp. pros) who'd like to save a few bucks and not get the keyboard or mouse, get limited RAM (if you are planning on sticking 8 1GB sticks in your G5, why are you paying apple $$$ for 512MB that you'll take out, or even more $$$ to get a single 1GB one so you don't waste the one pre-installed), video cards (if you've got a top-of-the line ATI 9800 ProMax POS, or whatever, why get a computer with some nVidia 5800 Ultra POS?), etc, etc, etc.

I'm not saying apple will or should offer these options, I'm just saying there are groups of people who like things different ways. So trying to appease the "there should be more default RAM in the G5" only ends up alienating the "put in less RAM so I'm not paying money for something I'm not going to use" crowd.

As for this post by dru
...but I'm not convinced a headless iMac will be a massive hit. The problem with the FP iMac is that the design is too advant-guarde. This is why the eMac made sense. It was more "traditional" in the sense of the old CRT iMac. I'd hate to see Apple abandon cutting-edge design just for sales. And besides, it's not like the Cube was flying off the shelves people. *THAT* was your "headless iMac" and it was a bomb despite a great deal of chatter and interest. The damn thing was simply too expensive.

The problem with the iMac is its too expensive. Its a cool computer, but its too much for the market their aiming it at. The cube failed ONLY because it cost too much. If they priced a headless iMac at the same price, it too will fail. If they price it at or around $1000, it will sell MUCH better than the cube. (and no one says a headless iMac has to be as small as a cube - make it bigger to cut down on costs).

If Apple can increase sales (and thus their market and the market for third-party developers) by delivering a computer without style, they should do it. People complain about blah Dell boxes, but all my computers (Dell and Apple) sit under one desk or another. What does it matter if it looks cool, if you never look at it!

Expat.mac
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Jul 2004

0

07/09, 12:20pm | report spam | close Reply |
PC = The Matrix

People are stupid. There's no really nice way to say it, but they are, and Apple isn't targeting them enough with advertising. "Sheep" go with what they know, and if they don't see it on TV, then it doesn't exist. Apple has always been the "high brow" machine, which is ironic in itself because they're so easy to use have more power and functionality in them than any PC, and people who are able to think outside the box realize that.
1. They need to get more advertising on TV. Plain and simple. The iPod is a good hook to get people in the door, and stressing Windows compatability is a must, but they need to effectively spin that off into the iLife integration with the iPod and the Mac.
2. Lowering prices is not the answer, as I don't think their goal is to put a Mac in every home. Quality and innovation costs money, and as Mac users, we understand that. Most people can't put the two together and realize that if they spend more now, they won't have to spend the same amount 12 months later because they bought a machine that doesn't have a half life of 6 months.
3. Style means nothing and everything. Because Mac's look good, doesn't mean they work better. But at the same time, people who are not aware of how much better they are will be enticed to buy based on appearance. I remember my first time in an Apple Store. I was drooling all over myself!!!! They are the best looking machines made, period, and I wouldn't want them any other way. The stores too.
4. People still see them as being for "creative people." They need find a way to break that stigma because I can't tell you how many I've heard people say that to me when I suggest that they buy a Mac instead of a PC.

It's like freeing a mind in the Matrix. They are programmed to accept what they are used to, and change is like a virus. But if they would just open up enough to try it, they'd realize that it's better than living the "PC" lie.

ScottEllsworth
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Sep 2001

0

07/09, 12:49pm | report spam | close Reply |
price aint everything

Plain and simple - Apple pays for the R&D behind their computers, as does Dell, Gateway, Micron, etc. The difference is the size of the market. Aggregate the money coming from all the PC makers, and you have a very big pile of money times a very small margin. Apple is taking a larger margin of a smaller amount of money. Put another way, Apple is competing with other vendors on a tenth or twentieth as much cash.

If they drop their margins to the cutthroat levels of other vendors, the cash for the innovation stops, and in short order, MacOS X, the iApps, and the like cease to be compelling. We then all get windows.

(Besides - the corporate market is pretty much windows dominated, and has been since the beginning. MacOS X makes a compelling case given the underlying unix layer, and it is still a more difficult sell than I like.)

Scott

klinux
Senior User

Joined: Jul 2002

0

07/09, 01:01pm | report spam | close Reply |
For mbryda

Here we go again. Dell is a POS on the desktop. Dell is a POS in the server market. Heck, Dell is slow, pricey, and people are unsatisifed with it. There is no one redeeming quality of Dell.

YET - and a big yet here - is somehow people still buy Dell over IBM, over Apple, and over any other PC vendor. So either there is something that makes Dell worthwhile which is my position, or that everybody else is an idiot.

Of course, you have also argued that everyone at Intel is an idiot for coming up with the oh-so-cleveredly-rhymed-so-clever-that-you-are-the-only-person using-it "De-Celeron" and every consumer who have ever purchased are idiots too.

Oh, Apple marketing are idiots.

Let's not forget that people at your company are not only idiots but are lazy too.

Now, only if people above listened to wise mbryda! The world would be a better place!!!

Gimme a break here.

You drive an Infiniti great. People on this board drives all sorts of different cars from American to German to Japanese. Some people do not drive cars and choose motorcycles, bikes, public transportation, etc. It's all good - I respect your decision to drive what you drive.

These are the same exact reasons why people choose their hardware and software and their OS. It is our wish that they would go to Apple and hey, if they choose something else, I can live with it. Yet, why do you continue to play the know-it-all? What, are you going to preach to also the non-Infiniti drivers here that we are idiots too?

tabarnak
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Jan 2003

0

07/09, 01:02pm | report spam | close Reply |
price price price

i have this friend who is really impress everytime he use my mac. he's been telling me for years that his next computer would be a mac.. a few pc later, he told me the next one for sure will be a G5.

well, last night the price has won once again, he sadly bought a pc again, but saved a shitload of money.

testudo
Forum Regular

Joined: Aug 2001

0

07/09, 01:32pm | report spam | close Reply |
advertising

They need to get more advertising on TV. Plain and simple.

gee, i don't know what sheep you hang out with, but I can't remember the last TV commercial I actually watched. h***, with a remote control and (more importantly) a Tivo, and I don't waste my time watching assinine TV commercials.

Oh, and I've said it before and I'll say it again. Apple could be putting ads on every hour of the day on every possible channel, and people here then would be complaining because they don't like the commercials. "You should show this, not that". "How come they can't explain what a new mac has, 4 firewire ports, 6 USB ports, etc, etc, etc. I want specs!" "That commercial is stupid. Apple needs to listen to me!".

Just imagine the h*** apple would've gone through if they did "Dude, you're getting a mac" commercials, saying their moronic and make mac users seem like idiots, regardless of the fact that, for some reason, those dell commercials were popular.

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BusinessWeek offers 'Six-Step Plan for Apple'

updated 12:40 pm EDT, Thu July 8, 2004

Six-Step Plan for Apple

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another Load of

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3 right and 3 wrong

Apple shareholders

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Yawn.

They got this one wrong..

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Listen here Kluser...

Part Deux

Couple o' things

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$2000 256MB RAM 80 GB HD

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Bzzt, wrong again

Apple Stores

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Re: umm

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price aint everything

For mbryda

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