" Talk about blowing up in their face. You're third, dude!"

Hey I can't help it if 2 people pressed enter before I did ;-D.

I agree with the How? comment. This does send a bad precedent for Apple. It could be good for Apple if the whole program flops though.

"How can any company offer this at a price of $275 per pupil?"

They can't. They will certainly loose money.

Sigh... I really wish Apple came back big time in Education but everywhere I look, Dell is there!

Maybe just as well, with every school I know in a funding short fall, is there really money there?

Bottom-line-costing will win out everytime. I see it everywhere now. IT heads aren't asking what's best for the company, but what's the bottom line cost?

After reading this, I couldn't help myself. I had to write to DMB-PurchWeb@michigan.gov, the final approving authority for the Freedom to learn Program.

"I just read in the news where your state's Joint Evaluations Committee recommended HP laptops for your sixth graders. I also see the price of $275/yr per student that HP gave you. It appears on the surface as a very good price. My sister has an HP laptop that she purchased recently, and I know of another person with an HP. I also know of 3 other friends with Mac laptops. I can assure you, you will be doing your sixth graders a serious disservice by handing them anything running Windows, especially an HP laptop. Viruses, service packs, and incompatibilities will only go to demonstrate the old saying "you get what you pay for". Unfortunately it will be at the expense of the kids, who have no say in the issue.

Do them a tremendous favor: Research the Macintosh system a little more thoroughly and investigate the success of other school system who used Macs before you make your final decision. I still can't believe your committee chose a Windows computer over the Macintosh. They must not have looked at anything other than initial cost. You're going to regret this in a really big way. (That is, if you're even aware of what you could have had.)

No, wait.... you won't regret it.... the kids will."

Sad, very sad.
This is one move they will regret, and truthfully
companies like HP will take a loss just to get in,
but little do they know they are creating a school of switchers once they've experienced the c*** called windoze.
Michigan decision makers blow.

This sounds like one of those, "it'll only cost $275 per pupil per year for the laptops IF you buy 5 of our high-end servers with full support contracts for your district" kind of deals... I can't see how else HP could offer such a deal, I mean they're not stupid... oh, wait, they did buy Compaq, perhaps I should retract the "not stupid" comment ;)

I don't recall how many years but it is in the range of three to five. So, they are getting the laptops and whatever else the contract calls for for $275 per year.

It will be very interesting to follow this one to see what happens. I hope that the Mac press will keep tabs on it.

I live in Michigan and work as a network speciailist for a K12 school system. I love the fact that we are mainly an Apple district. The FTL program has been setup for failure from the beginning. The money only takes into account the laptop costs. There are no dollars for tech support, software, infrastructure, etc. Besides, with all the budget cutting going on in the state, the program as a whole won't last much longer anyway.

What can you expect from a dairy farmer from mid-michigan though.

Come on guys! We all know that the Apple world isn't perfect as well. What about critical bugs introduced with updates? What about the FireWire problem and data loss? What about FileVault bugs? What about the "White Spot" problem? What about system upgrade costs (10.1 -> 10.2 -> 10.3)?

"Come on guys! We all know that the Apple world isn't perfect as well. What about critical bugs introduced with updates? What about the FireWire problem and data loss? What about FileVault bugs? What about the "White Spot" problem? What about system upgrade costs (10.1 -> 10.2 -> 10.3)?"

1.-3.) I challenge you to show me another operating system with fewer problems on release, or who fixes the know problems as quickly.

4.) Do you have a PowerBook? Do you know how prevalent the white-spot problem is, by percentage of machines? Apple sells the best-selling laptops in the world. Sell a few hundred thousand of *anything* and you will see some units with problems. I serviced HP computers for years... At least one-quarter of them had hardware issues out of the box.

5.) Just because Apple doesn't inflate their version numbers, you think they charge too much? Each Mac OS X revision has been worth the $130-- and if it isn't worth it to you, nobody is forcing you to upgrade. Jaguar still runs very nicely.

Actually, considering these are 6th graders it makes much better sense to take the HP deal because it comes with insurance. Being an HP and an Apple service tech and seeing the advantages and disadvantages of both it's obvious why they had to choose HP.

1) Insurance, HP has said they will add accident insurance on them. That means if the kids drop their laptop and crack their screen, it will be covered... no cost to anyone. Apple doesn't offer anything like this.

2) Service centers. In Michigan, save for the major cities there are no apple service centers. The Union City school system is nearly 100 miles away from me and they have to drive thier equipment here. Which would be a major problem.

Personally I own a Tibook (getting a little old in the tooth) and I love OS X. My 6th grade daughter has an iMac with OS X as well but I have no problems with her getting an HP because if (and when) she drops it.. it's not totalled. Kudo's to HP.

Steve

The previous gov gave all the K-12 _teachers_ an iBook or iMac to use at school, or even at home. This happened a couple of years ago. Regardless of money, I'm amazed the Michigan decision makers would now throw PCs into the mix. So now, the teachers (some who aren't computer savvy to begin with) have to learn another system. Stupid. Just plain stupid.

They can't. They will certainly loose money.



Well, maybe this is why they went to PCs rather than macs. I'd rather have loose money than lose money. (That's right. The Board of Ed probably was reading the Mac boards and felt that Mac users speak no good english (plus, there's a lot more l33t users on PCs, and they're now teaching that as a language course).

"Bottom-line-costing will win out everytime. I see it everywhere now. IT heads aren't asking what's best for the company, but what's the bottom line cost? "

IT often does not even look at the bottom line. They only look at the initial upfront costs. If they were looking at the the true bottom line, then they would see that if they used Macs then they could probably downsize their IT department and save $100,000 or more per year.

"What about system upgrade costs (10.1 -> 10.2 -> 10.3)?"

The operating systems on K12 computers are never upgraded. They will live and die with whatever shipped on them from the factory. Several years ago I ran Norton Disk Doctor on 200 LCIIs at an elementary school and it took two of us, two long days.

Look, these kids are going to have to spend their working live re-booting windows so they better get used to it now.....(YIKES !@#$?)

Remember if we don't want to pay more taxes our schools administrators have to buy cheap...

"[i]Insurance, HP has said they will add accident insurance on them. That means if the kids drop their laptop and crack their screen, it will be covered... no cost to anyone. Apple doesn't offer anything like this.[/i]"

Ignorant. The exact same insurance is available for the Apple laptops. You obviously have no clue.

"[i]Service centers. In Michigan, save for the major cities there are no apple service centers. The Union City school system is nearly 100 miles away from me and they have to drive thier equipment here. Which would be a major problem.[/i]"

The schools would not have to drive anything anywhere. Have you never heard of Airborne Express? When a laptop needs to be seviced, you call Apple...Apple sends over someone from Airborne with a box...you put the laptop in the box and hand it back...then Airborne delivers it to an Apple service center...Apple repairs the laptop and then Airborne brings it back to you.

Typical turn around time is 2 days. Rarely more than 3 days. One time I sent in a PowerBook and had it back in 27 hours!! Not only had they fixed the hardware problem, they also had upgraded the OS with all the latest patches. I know it was the same laptop because all of my files were still there and the outside cover still had the scratch from when I had dropped it. The Apple laptop repair center that did the work that time was over 1000 miles away. A 100 mile distance from the repair center is not an issue.

jklkj

You don't understand business. HP will win the initial contract for $275/student. Then the school district will have to pay successive fees to actually get things to work. Three or four contracts will follow. When its all said and done, the actually cost will probably be something like $900/student with HP cashing in big-time and the school district being screwed. It's business, america style.

OK asshat, the point was HP threw it in to the deal. It's not something these kids have to purchase seperately. It was thrown in, Apple did not offer it.

And as for IGNORANT: apparently you haven't dealt with apple's service much. More times then not it's smooth. However, there are many of companies in town here who have to bring their laptops in to a service center because apple's tech support was "unsure" of their troubleshooting abilities.

Just because you are in your own little world doesn't mean the rest of the world fits your lonely one-sided singular experience.

Take your sour apples elsewhere...

I can just see the anouncement the school district is sending to all the parents of the 6th graders:

"We are pleased to anounce that we have purchased the cheapest, flimsiest, most unreliable total-c*** laptops for your 6th grade child. We are excited to be offering these crashy laptops in an effort to acquaint your child with the real world: working with a winbox in a cubicle at some company that doesn't give a rats a** about their employees and overemphasizes the bottom line. We are happy to be able to neglect your child's education and hope to be able to offer even crummier computers in the years ahead. Like the hard plastic chairs your child sits on 8 hours a day that cause sciatic problems, we anticipate the low-grade keyboards to cause carpal-tunnel as well. If you have any other suggestions as to how we can cause your child chronic discomfort please feel free to let us know!"

I would put my kid in private school if the public schools in my area did this.

My guess is that HP had to throw in the insurance after the school "decision manglers" realized how chintzy the HP laptops are compared the sturdy iBooks they almost bought.

My guess is that HP had to throw in the insurance after the school "decision manglers" realized how chintzy the HP laptops are compared to the sturdy iBooks they almost bought.

6th graders don't need laptops.

You're probably right... but no laptop can handle a 6th grader tossing it around.

I realize that Apple isn't perfect, but they are a whole lot closer than HP.

1. Students would have been getting iBooks, there is no FW 800 port on those, so the File Vault problem would not exist, since it only affected FW 800 disks. (Besides, that has been fixed)

2. The white spot problem is caused by screens twisting (mostly from people opening the screen by the side and not middle like you are supposed to.) And once again, they would be getting iBooks where the screens do not twist nearly as easily.

3. Education does not have to pay for System upgrades.

Being an educator in Michigan, I thought I'd talk about a few of the issues brought up in this forum.

First of all, I'd like to address the comment about the computers that the former Governor and the taxpayers paid for. They weren't all Apples. Some teachers didn't even get computers. Most districts in the state probably opted for Wintel hardware considering three of the four accepted vendors obviously weren't Apple. Thankfully in my district, some of the teachers got to make their own decision. Most districts weren't that lucky.
Secondly, talking about service and sending to Union City. Much like Maine, a part of the Apple offer was to create a service depot in the state of Michigan. This would be a new facility with Apple Service Techs.
As a teacher, I would love the opportunity to say "okay, get your laptops out, we need to go to this website," or "okay, everyone close your laptops and open your books." Instead, we book "lab" time and have students hiding behind monitors. We do not have the benefit of anything like remote desktop to monitor and/or lock out our students. Before you flame me with Windows options, none of them are cheaper than ARD, and none that I've used allow me to see more than one screen at once.
Again, we pick the wrong tool for teachers and students based purely on cost.

Point 1:
Hm, ok, you won :-)

Point 2:
It was not about PowerBook vs. iBook but Q&A at Apple in general.
BTW, we have some HP notebooks here and I must say the NX7000 just looks great. And no problems out-of-the-box ;-)

Point 3:
Didn't know that. Sorry. What about M$? I thought their new license forces institutions to upgrade or loose their upgrade price?

That's twice in this thread already. It's "lose", not "loose".

Check out the deal sites, all major peecee makers have P.O.S. celeron-based laptops for as low as $600 (usually after $100 rebate). $275/year over 3 years will easily cover this, service and insurance, and even a small profit.
With their lowest-end model priced around $1,000, no wonder Apple lost.
Bottom line, although Apple has excellent computers and some of them are priced very competitively, there will always be competitors to sell machines that are "comparable" on paper feature-for-feature, but will cost much less because they're built with inferior components.
Like other posters have said, it's going to be the kids who pay for this mistake.
On the other hand, this program gives us a baseline to compare to. We should monitor it closely and see if the kids are less, more, or as successful as the iBook kids. We assume the program will fail, but in the end if the kids get better grade improvements than the iBook kids we should be prepared to eat crow as well (not that it's likely, but...) just the same way a measurable difference in results will give tremendous ammo to the Mac side.

Remember that it's $275 per year. Over 4 years, that pays for a laptop, even an iBook. Not sure about infrastructure and administration, support, etc. Sounds like a fire sale.

I am a computer enthusiast, even more so now that I have a Powerbook, but I don't think most schools are ready for kids with laptops whether they be PC or Mac. Mac, being more closed, would make a better choice though, IMO.

OK, I think this HP stuff is bad, but the guy who made comments about FileVault and white spots doesn't know about these issues.

The FileVault problem was separate of the FW800 issue. One is a problem with FV, the other with a version of the FW800 firmware and how it interacts with OS 10.3. Updating firmware would solve the problem, but Apple ALSO fixed the issue on Panther that became a non-issue with newer firmware just to be safe. The FV problem was also fixed, but was a different issue than the FW800 issue.

The white spots are NOT from bending the screen. They are almost like birthmarks on the new Aluminum 15" screens. Apple is aware of the problem (due to LCD manufacturer, not Apple directly), and has been known to take the machines back for a screen swap. They're working on this one. However, you are right that this wouldn't impact iBook owners as it's a different screen. Only the current 15.2" LCD has this problem.

Speaking of which, I wish they went with a 15.4" for the new AluBook.

I have made a bunch of money fixing this hunks of junk!

I don't suppose anyone here has ever heard of the concept of a "loss leader". Grocery stores do it all of the time; for example, selling a 48 pack of Coke or Pepsi for $5 bucks or less. The store looses money on each and every case they sell, but customers come into the store to buy the beverage and they stay to buy more.

This is the same thing. HP is going to lose money on each and every one of these laptops. They will lose money on the hardware and they will lose money on support. But that is not the point.

Once these six graders have an HP and get used to the machine, they most likely are going want HP laptops for the rest of their school careers. This means that the distrcit will buy more HPs and the families of these students will buy more HPs. Furthermore, once the beginnings of an HP branded infrastructure are in place, it will be much easier to convince the school district to by HP desktops and servers and digital cameras and printers and whatnot.

This is not a deal about providing affordable laptops to students. This is a deal designed to bait and hook more customers.

Lastly, while Apple probably could have matched the offer, this would have opened a pandora's box of probelms. Every district that comes after this would demand a similar deal from Apple.

Now due to cost cutting our pre-middle schoolers are gonna be pc dweebs instead of mac geeks. Granholm IS a wart faced schizm.

iBooks for educational institutions start at $849. For those wanting to toss around numbers.

It'll end up costing Michigan millions of dollars in IT costs and downtime, especially when viruses invade their networks.

After a couple of years, these laptops will be BEAT to death. Trust me on this - I work tech support at a college and the students are CONSTANTLY bringing in laptops (Apple and PC) that are dropped, dinged, and treated in all sorts of unbelievable ways. And they all seem to think they deserve free replacements, which is a rather sad commentary on today's kids.

I also have grade school kids of my own, and support our home PCs and Macs. They are BRUTAL on these machines, installing all sorts of c***, even though I constantly forbid them to do so. After years of family PCs and professional Macs, I've decided it's time for Macs across the board. Even at home, PCs are too aggravating.

Someone above noted the idea of a "loss leader." If that's HP's idea, then they are in for a surprise when these kids graduate and all they can think of HP is that they put out garbage. In the end, Apple might look better than ever to these kids.

I think it's obvious that this is a loss leader for HP, and if that's how they want to do business, they can. Apple is under far more pressure (rightly or not) to consistently show a profit, because every quarter they drop below profitability the doomsayers spring out of the closets and starting claiming again that Apple is going out of business. HP can lose far more money without having to worry about losing share price.

They likely also got some help from MS, because 1-to-1 computing is MS big push for education right now. They don't even promote Pocket PC for schools because they prefer to push for laptops for all kids, and they don't want to confuse their message.

I bought a Compaq computer just before the Compaq/HP merger. A few weeks later, Compaq speed bumped the machine. I called Compaq and asked if I could return my order for a newer version, all the while thinking how I'd be stuck if this were a Mac. To my surprise, they said "No problem",... and didn't even ask why.

I was, and remain, an Apple computer devotee, but Apple's service has declined to the point that most other computer manufacturers have significantly better return policies.

Michigan is in commodity buying mode, not brand building for any computer manufacturer.

Your comment really isn't about Apple's service, rather about their pricing and exchange policies. Like most companies, Apple will allow price adjustments within a certain period, but will not exchange your system if it's "speed bumped". Alot of computer computers follow this same policy (mainly because the machines are considered 'custom' built from the factory). Product turnover and advancement is just the nature of the beast.

You lucked out in the respect that you bought from a company that was desperately trying to hold onto customers and retain some sort of public image.

Dude, Apple does that too. Within 10 days they will automatically upgrade your order or refund the difference in price.

OK, I see your first problem. You bought a Compaq. I mean, if you wanted to get crappy PC hardware, save some money and get Packard Bell or eMachines.

has anyone done the math on this?

$275 x 130,000 = $35,7500

per year lets say they sign a contract for 3 years

35,750,000 x 3 = $107,250,000

now consider laptop costs at $600(remember $975 is after all mark ups)a laptop. That is $78,000,000

Tech support people are already working and you buy an insurance policy to cover defects for a few million.

You have profit in the range of $20 million+

now dig in on server and other add ons seems like you have a nice tidy profit pretty quick.


With all that said I am a mac person to the end and own a quicksilver, 700iBook and, still hold on to my 128k Mac. Yet you have to realize there is money in it for HP and they won't lose money.

From what I have heard out of my apple rep apple matched the price but the state chose HP.

Margin on laptops is nowhere near 38% (as in your example of a $600 laptop selling for $975). Most computer manufacturers are dealing with margins in the single digits, especially in the Windows world. On top of that you have to add the insurance costs, the shipping costs, the repair costs, and the training of around 6,000 teachers. I guessing it will be a little profit, but nearer to break even than your numbers.

OK....OK....time to share some facts witht this group that weren't mentioned in the article.

1. Schools in MI will have to submit grant applications for this money.

2. Freedom To Learn (FTL) provides $250/student per year for a four-year lease. Each local district much kick in $25/student per year for a total of $275/year as mentioned. This was the target price for all vendors and is nothing unique or special to HP.

3. For that $1,100 ($275x4), vendors had to supply the following:

A. Portable laptop computers with carrying case for every targeted 6th grade student;

B. Functional software appropriate to grade level including access to basic research information and databases;

C. Wireless networks and technical support;

D. Insurance, damage and theft coverage;

E. Professional development, training, curriculum & content;

F. Assistance with an evaluation component; and

G. Management by a Single Point of Contact responsible for the overall implementation.

Find info here:
http://www.michigan.gov/doingbusiness/0,1607,7-146--77378--,00.html

It's not 100% certain yet that HP has won. So far the AP story is the only source for this info. The Michigan Department of Management and Budget which is overseeing the bidding process has not posted notice of a winner.

Hope this helps enlighten a little....

FYI, if you want to check the status of FTL or see the actual Invitation To Bid, go here:

http://www.state.mi.us/dmb/apps/oop/itbBids.asp?itb=071I4001017

The main ITB to download is Attachment 1.

At least Dell didn't get it!

too bad, MI . . . we'll wish you well though . . .

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