" Apple SHOULD have cracked the 2 barrier even farther.. instead of trying to clear out the old processors. The 2 ghz should have been the middle buy. They always do this before the end of the year and release the faster machines in January.. this sux because of year end tax right offs for office eq. force you to buy before year end if your business minded and want to give uncle sam as least in possible in taxes.

If they would offer the latest and greatest during December season they would sell more computers in my opinion. Because I'm not buying knowing a faster one is due January.. I'll just buy OTHER office eq this year as a tax right off."


Shame on Apple for trying to clear inventory...they should just donate it to charity and move on.

Instead of introducing new Dual G5s that are available immediately, they should introduce brand new cutting edge systems that use new faster G5 processors that IBM is not shipping yet.

" Apple SHOULD have cracked the 2 barrier even farther.. instead of trying to clear out the old processors. The 2 ghz should have been the middle buy. They always do this before the end of the year and release the faster machines in January.. this sux because of year end tax right offs for office eq. force you to buy before year end if your business minded and want to give uncle sam as least in possible in taxes.

If they would offer the latest and greatest during December season they would sell more computers in my opinion. Because I'm not buying knowing a faster one is due January.. I'll just buy OTHER office eq this year as a tax right off."


Shame on Apple for trying to clear inventory...they should just donate it to charity and move on.

Instead of introducing new Dual G5s that are available immediately, they should introduce brand new cutting edge systems that use new faster G5 processors that IBM is not shipping yet.

" I think it was really nice of apple to provide a dual 1.8 at only $100 difference. I'm kinda shocked that apple did this, its not like them. well done."


What are you talking about? That is exactly like Apple.

the next logical step in the evolution of the iMac will be the 23" cinema display iMac. don't know ot the present form factor could handle that thouh ;-)

I bought the 17" iMac 1Ghz just recently (several months ago, when I also bought the 17" Powerbook w/ 22" Cinema Display).

After having the 22" Cinema Display...a 20" iMac is very tempting. However, the specs aren't much higher than my current iMac. The only advantage to me would be a larger internal hard drive but I have already two external firewire hard drives attached.

I'm not trying to sound like sour grapes but I wont be throwing my current iMac on eBay and buying the newest iMac this time around. Maybe next year when they bump the speed/specs again, maybe...but no today.

Here's my dream specs for what I'd want..

At least a 1.6ghz (2.0 would be wonderful. dual would be awesome)
Larger hard drive (160 to 250 GB, (caveman grunt) more space!!
Firewire 800 (hey if my powerbook has it, why not my iMac??)

Several people have also said a detachable screen. I'm kind of indifferent towards that. Theoretically I think that'd be great but currently...I'm not sure if we'd have another 'Cube' problem. Cube was a nice machine but overpriced when it didn't have a screen attached... Flat Panel iMac's basically ARE cube's but without a detachable screen...if that makes any sense..

"If they would offer the latest and greatest during December season they would sell more computers in my opinion. Because I'm not buying knowing a faster one is due January.. I'll just buy OTHER office eq this year as a tax right off.

You lose Apple. Must be Gore's idea. "

Silly conservative.

The last time a conservative was in charge of Apple, it was close to
going broke.

The last time Gore was actually running something (the US Government, alongside Clinton) we had a budget surplus of 3 trillion $$. It took your boy Bush all of 18 months to totally p*ss it away.

Grow a brain.

Give me a break... This G4 is becoming quite pathetic. $2199.00 for 1.25 Ghz G4, no Lvl3 cache, a ti-nite-sy 80 Gig HD.

I bet they sell 20,000 units in Q4... thats it.

Apple - the idea is sound. Good for you. The price is horrific. The Power is embarassing. Motorolla should be cut asap.

Why would anyone want this thing?

3 usb 2 ports and no firewire 800 and only two 400 ports.
is usb 2 taking over the market?

The FP iMac's last gasp. My guess is that Apple is doing all they can to build some news around the iMac to move the inventory of base units / g4 chips before moving to a new form-factor iMac next year.

But $2200 for a sub-powered consumer desktop? Puleeze.

This is comparable to those a**-ugly iMacs launched just before the FP iMac introduction.

Guess is that the new iMacs will not be G5, but *not G4 either* -- hold on to your britches.

Actually, it is still a good deal. When you compare it to the following system, still available from Apple:

-MDD PowerMac G4 (Single 1.25ghz) 256/80/Combo - $1299
-Apple 20" Cinema Display - $1299
Total: $2598 (..Yes Virginia! that comes with just a combo drive)

-iMac 20" 1.25ghz, 256/80/SuperDrive $2199

In this light, I consider the iMac a good deal...perhaps not earth-shatteringly cheap, but a worthy alternative.

I'm not sure if it's a typo in the news story, but the new dual 1.8 is $2499, what price was the old one? The news story says the old one was also $2499, making $0 difference, not $100 as claimed.

Couldn't agree with you more. This thing will bomb. Apple would sell twice as much AND increase marketshare if they produced an iMac for $999. As opposed to increasing the screen size and charging $2199. Did they take a survey? Question 1: How many people didn't buy an iMac because the 17inch screen wasn't big enough? Qustion 2: How many people didn't buy an iMac because it's too expensive, and would consider one if it was cheaper?

Chopping the base model by $200 isn't that unreasonable!!

"Actually, it is still a good deal. When you compare it to the following system.."

A kettle calling a pot black doesn't make the kettle less black. A deal that's not as bad as a really bad deal, doesn't make that former deal a good deal.

Just to interject:

"A kettle calling a pot black doesn't make the kettle less black. A deal that's not as bad as a really bad deal, doesn't make that former deal a good deal."

I believe you are assuming pots, kettles, and black calling. I believe the individual was suggesting the iMac was a good deal, _not_ that the G4 was a bad one.

"a new dual-1.8GHz processor Power Mac G5 for $2,500, $100 more than the previous $2,499 single-processor 1.8GHz Power Mac G5."

you'd think macnn would be able to add 2500-2499 = 1 =/= 100

Actually, I bought a G4 because the 15" iMac didn't have enough resolution. If I was buying today, I'd probably go for the iMac. It's a decent package and takes up very little desk space.

People typically complain that the iMac doesn't have a detachable screen - why? Well one reason is so they can save the screen when they replace the iMac. The other big reason is they want a higher resolution. They've just eliminated one complaint right there.

I don't know why people complain so much. Not every Mac model is directed at you? If you don't like the iMac, get something else. Why complain about it?

A $2200 non-upgradable computer? You've got to be kidding me.

This will tank. It's only a matter of time.

If I use my old monitor, I can buy a brand new -G5- DUEL 1.8 for only $300 more. AND IT'S UPGRADABLE.

Sorry apple. Consumers don't spend $2200 on a computer, no matter how slick it looks. Not going to happen.

This will tank. It's only a matter of time.

If I use my old monitor, I can buy a brand new -G5- DUEL 1.8 for only $300 more. AND IT'S UPGRADABLE.

Sorry apple. Consumers don't spend $2200 on a computer, no matter how slick it looks. Not going to happen.>

And just how is the G5 upgradable where an iMac is not? Don't tell me you expect to be able to upgrade the processors?? I seriously doubt anyone believes this will happen any time soon.

RAM? You can add RAM to an iMac, too.
Hard Drives? Well, you can crack the case and replace the HD or add FireWire drives to your hearts content (and as long as you're not building a FW RAID, FW400 is fast enough for any HD mechanism).
Graphics? OK, I'll give you that one. But the likely truth is most Mac users don't upgrade their cards (or the third-party market might be bigger).
PCI cards? If you're contemplating an iMac, I'd assume you already believe you won't be needing PCI capability.

HOWEVER, I agree that a 20" iMac is a little odd. The 17" is definitely a very nice machine. The 20" perhaps is for people with a few extra quid (bucks) to spend.

The 17" iMac once cost as much or more, and people bought it, ...with the Canadian dollar at a low point, it was over $3,200 or so at the time for the 17" iMac with superdrive...
this 20" is a couple hundred less Canadian now, and offers the much larger screen.

It does seem that this is a great PR piece. Price aside, I'm sure this machine looks *stunning* in person. I wouldn't be surprised if this machine is the one that will appear in Hollywood TV and movies.

Most nerds can see value and cool-factor in having a 20" tft, a decent processor and some other features.

I agree that it's too high-priced, but cost aside, I'd have to say it's high on the coolness scale. :)

another attempt by apple to sucker people into buying an iMac because it's the only way to get a slick apple FP display for a reasonable value.

The iMac's only value is it's screen. Take that away, and you are left with an extremely low value computer (at least when you start comparing it to the G5 line). Apple hopes you will buy an iMac... that way, when you need to buy a new computer, they can feel free to charge you again for a monitor, even though you have a perfectly good old one (with the exception that it's hard-attached to your old computer).

The 17'' was cheap enough that it provided a real value. The fact you weren't getting expansion was offset by the lower price and cool monitor. The new 20'' however, does not give you that much more for the money you are spending on it, especially when you can get a much more powerful computer (the G5) for almost the same money.

The 20'' is for geeks who have an extra $2200 lying around and want the notoraity of having a huge moveable FP monitor. Normal people will just get a G5.

how about Apple fixes 10.3, 10.3.1, and the immenent 10.3.2 - noe of the two upgrades address the FireWire 800 issue or other Apple driver related issues... it would be nice to have an OS that doesnt eat my files and kill my drives

tax write off=1) set your quarterly filing deadlines to accomodate your purchasing xmas presents (imacs for yourself) to after january), 2) file an extension until MW, 3) realize that if your employees NEED the faster dual g5's then you're probably profitable enough to not need the extra write off.

imac not g4 or g5 later...right. It's at what 1.25 now? slowest g5 is 1.6. Think we're not going to see a g5 imac? Right. Remember (and cross your fingers) that the g5 should speed up quickly unlike the last moto-junk. If the towers get faster the imac can easily be remodeled (since any imac above a 15" just looks totally stupid in scale) and releunched as the imac g5. It's still a rip-off to not seperate the monitor, but hey...they've been doing this to everyone with a laptop for years and nobody has complained ;).

This may be the last great clearing we see from apple for sometime so let's hope they can streamline their product matrix again and start predicting their inventory better.

dual 1.8 had to be there, but the 1.6 should be a dual or a lot cheaper.

This will tank. It's only a matter of time.

Ummm, it either tanks or doesn't tank. Tanking isn't something that happens over time.

how about Apple fixes 10.3, 10.3.1, and the immenent 10.3.2 - noe of the two upgrades address the FireWire 800 issue or other Apple driver related issues... it would be nice to have an OS that doesnt eat my files and kill my drives

The 10.3.1 put in fixes for the Firewire 800 problem (guess you missed that one, huh). And your vague "other apple driver related issues" goes without comment, since who knows what issues you're talking about.

a sub or equal to eMac pricing for just an iMac base. This would allow users with existing machines to use their current Apple LCD or VGA monitor.

Bring back the Cube, or something like it at a reasonable price point. $699 with 512mb, 60gig HD, superdrive, 64mb video card, FW400, USB2, compact flash & smart media slots. This would be direct competition for HP's 320 series desktops. (yeah, yeah HP this & that but it can get the job done for small office tasks)

If we are breaking into the $2000+ price range, we should get at least 512mb of RAM - doesn't matter if its a G5, Powerbook or iMAC.

Ha ha! Everyone thinks they have the answer. A $700 cube makes money for Apple how? If you just want a Mac with a 20" screen, you will buy it. Some people just want a nice looking all-in-one computer with a bigger screen. This is who this machine is aimed at. Did any of you market "experts" think that for some, a nice big 20" screen is more important than the fastest processor. It's a great machine for budding video editors or graphic artists. Not everyone needs or can afford a G5 with a 20" screen.

Just because a bunch of punks and geeks on MacNN don't want it, doesn't mean it will flop.

I got an iMac 17 Gen2 for my secretary at the office. Its just what we need. It works great, is fast for what she does, and looks outstanding on her desk as it portrays an image of creativity and professionalism. If a 20 inch iMac had been available 8 months ago when I got this one, I'd have gotten it.

Right now I want a consumer level Mac but have a gorgeous 19" CRT that I don't want to throw away.

I don't need a G5 and can't afford it, so my option is a eMac or iMac.

If I buy either, my screen means nothing and can't get barely anything for it. I also feel I don't want a 15" iMac cuz I like a bigger screen. As soon as you get into the 17 or 20", I feel it's not a good investment cuz you know you have to throw it away with the rest of the iMac when you go to upgrade in 3-4 years.

Bring back the cube, give consumers what they want ... affordable choices. I realize they're not going to throw a G5 into the iMac yet, but the upgrade stuck at 1.25 for another 6 months? Did they try dual-G4's??

Ok so less than 6 months after I get my 1.8's for the office they now offer a dual model for $100 more!?!

This really blows chunks! Apple is a great marketer but their product strategies really suck.

Panther doesn't do half of the c*** they promise with Windows and when you call tech support they don't call back.

Now I spend over 10K and after 2 months of shipping delays waiting on the video card they release a more powerful system for $100 more.

belongy to me

No, you blow. Don't you feel like a chump for having bought the single 1.8's? I knew they would add duals to it because the mobo is designed for dual's and not singles. Singles make no sense on that mobo. It is spec'd out for dual from the ground up. Single processor is like running a V8 engine with only 4 pistons. Stupid single processor G5's make no sense. Overpriced as well.

Why does Apple have ITMS which does not make money? To sell iPods. A similar logic could be applied to an entry level MAC, although not as a loss leader. It would be a new and untested price point for Apple

Apple's business plan may require 64% profit on every unit sold, and a 32% profit on a $700 obviously wouldn't fly whereas another company may be happy with a 20% profit margin.


Apple could do a bundle for $899 iMac base & 10 gig iPod


How does HP & Canon make money on $100 printers?

They expect to make profit via lower margins and higher volume sales vs higher margins and lower volume sales, such as Apple, Porsche, Nieman Marcus, etc. Again, not an Apple strategy to date and untested waters for them.

I don't think anyone on here feels they have "the answer" to have Apple shoot up in marketshare, We are just tossing out ideas, chill and have a cold one. peace.

1680x1050 is too low for a 20" panel!!! it should be at least 1600x1200 or even better 1920x1440 IMHO...

Yeah! Bush's government...

It is our government dickbreath, and Bush is doing what no pissant liberal g**-d***-suck would do. Defend our WAY OF LIFE, so Gore-the-bore and Mr. Jobs can have their FREE enterprize.

Shut it.

and YOUR way of life

You can get printers for less than $30. They probably lose money on them but make it up 10 fold by raping you on the price of the ink cartridges. Think about it, new printer $30, ink tank $50? Consumers are lame for falling into the inkjet boobytrap time and time again. Lasers are the real value.

"The last time Gore was actually running something (the US Government, alongside Clinton) we had a budget surplus of 3 trillion $$. It took your boy Bush all of 18 months to totally p*ss it away.

Grow a brain. "

Why don't you grwo a brain. Clinton/Gore left us with a crashed economy, a broken bubble, and a recession. Bush has done a lot of dumb things, but his tax cuts were right on, except they were not big enough. Clinton only had a surplus because of the bubble economy. Nothing in his policies produced that surplus.

What surplus? It was an estimate, not an actual surplus.

Anyway, I feel safe (as a conservative) that Gore is just a figurehead, not an actual decision maker. Jobs makes all the decisions, and I'm OK with that.

And no, making insulting comments to anyone here isn't very bright, but that's what I've come to expect of MacNN forums.

"3 usb 2 ports and no firewire 800 and only two 400 ports.
is usb 2 taking over the market? "

Its not that anything is taking over but look at it like this. Being that the imac is a consumer level computer, firwire 800 would not only drive up the price, but it would also be kind of a waste since "consumers" wont really need that kind of speed. and also , there are only 2 regular firewire ports and 3 USB2 ports becuase you are more likely to use USB more often than a firewire port. No one makes mice , gamepads, keyboards, and digital cameras that are firewire based because you dont need that much bandwith for such fundamentally trivial needs. in other words, you have more USB devices than firwire, and most USB devices are not daisy chainable, while firewire hard drives usually are.

-Macjedi-

If you were so worried about defending our way of life, then you wouldnt agree about being in Iraq uruigh now. ITS FOR OIL CMON NOW. If he were really worried about being attacked, he would be in SAUDI ARABIA where more than half teh terrorists that got us are from. We wouldnt be over there attacking the laughing stock of teh military world. Go join a military outfit and youll see that amost ALL the people there dont agree with Bush's BS. NOW ENOUGH ABOUT THIS OFFICE STEALING f*****.

I see that Clinton's education policy really helped out your spelling and typing skills.

First, enough with the political bullshit. This website is for discussing mac stuff. If you have a political opinion, save it for yourself, we don't care.

Second. "They've been doing this to everyone with a laptop for years and nobody has complained." Good point. However, I think it's about different expectations (desktop vs laptop). Most people expect that a laptop is all about mobility so they don't mind a screen that's designed to be integrated. Sure, it would be nice if you could take it off and use it for your next computer. But it's more important for people to have a moble computer that has a clean and streamlined formfactor. The all-in-one-ness is important to the design. But I could just be making excuses ;-) Still, with a desktop, there's more of an expectation to get exactly what you want because there's no space requirement, just a space preference (extra space from the FP screen is a luxury, not a show-stopper.)

"Ha ha! Everyone thinks they have the answer. A $700 cube makes money for Apple how?"

I'm tired of people coming up with statements like this. Does apple always do everything right? What exactly is your issue with someone disagreeing with what apple has done? Apple is not perfect, and never will be. They will make mistakes, and people will nail them for it. Resorting to calling people "armchair CEOs" is just lame. Just because someone happens to be a CEO doesn't not mean they are above criticism. Likewise, just because someone doesn't know absolutely everything about the computer industry doesn't mean they can't make a comment. In fact, I would say that in most cases, mac users are more knowledgeable about apple then apple is about itself! Maybe if apple would LISTEN to it's customers for once instead of always coming off like "daddy knows best" and doing something stupid like slapping a pro monitor on top of a consumer CPU, they would have more marketshare, lol.

"Some people just want a nice looking all-in-one computer with a bigger screen."

Then they get exactly what they're looking for. If all-in-one is important to you, and you only care about the FP screen, then buy it. That still doesn't mean it's not a poor value. Unless all you care about is the screen.

"Not everyone needs or can afford a G5 with a 20" screen."

Correction. Not everyone can afford a G5 with a 20" -FP- screen. A 19" CRT is $300 or less, which you can easily tack on to the lowest priced G5 and STILL get a better machine for less money. Again, people just oogle over the FP and completely ignore the fact that the machine is underpowered. If you want to be a dumbass and ignore the fact that the guts of the computer is c*** compared to what else is available, then go ahead and buy it. I'm not stopping you.

Finally, about the "apple needs to make money" thing.

It's more important for apple to gain marketshare and do what customers want then it is for them to make money in the short term. Even if apple takes a LOSS at first, it's an investment in the future to give people what they want. Because LONG TERM, apple will have created a much larger customer base which will lead to long term growth.

Apple's strategy of charging people "premium" for macs is shortsighted. Many people would buy macs if apple didn't always have to go over the top and create something "insanely great", which requires them to charge extra for it.

I'm NOT saying apple should skimp and become another rippoff company like Dell. I praise apple's attention to detail. But there needs to be a better ballance. Apple is not going to gain marketshare by always going over the top on every product. Unfortuantely, the people who make money are the Dells of the world that provide people exactly what they want and for a price they can afford.

"If you want to be a dumbass and ignore the fact that the guts of the computer is c*** compared to what else is available, then go ahead and buy it. I'm not stopping you"

It's amazing how in this little MacNN posting world, people can prop themselves and scream at the top of their lungs.

Thank you all for reminding me why I call this site "MacBitch". MacNN - do everyone a favor and discountinue these postings. They do nothing more than promote ignorance, hatred, and allow disgruntled employees to b**** during their lunch hour.

Oh wait, this is MacNN. We don't care about news... we care about driving up advertising revenue by allowing people to post over and over and over again. I'm sure this will make Buy.com, Amazon.com, and PayPal happy.

Who cares about journalism, let's just all b****!

Thank you all for reminding me why I call this site "MacBitch". MacNN - do everyone a favor and discountinue these postings. They do nothing more than promote ignorance, hatred, and allow disgruntled employees to b**** during their lunch hour.

Oh wait, this is MacNN. We don't care about news... we care about driving up advertising revenue by allowing people to post over and over and over again. I'm sure this will make Buy.com, Amazon.com, and PayPal happy.

Who cares about journalism, let's just all b****!

no you're a b****!

There are plenty of people big investment already made in CRT technology - especially those of us who have switched from the PC. Why throw away a good monitor to get an iMac, especially when the jump to the G5 is still pretty massive.

I'm sure I'm not the first to suggest an introductory iMac-form machine with no screen, but ADC-out. Apple would be raking in the money since the real costs of these machines lies in the display.

The PC world is already moving into the small box that you plug into a big monitor, plasma or TV. We need a Mac that is going to sit in the living room as a computer/jukebox/personal video recorder. Microsoft is making a lot of running here with Windows Media Edition - horrible, but with no competition.

Although such a machine will need a good name - the iWart? the iBlister? the iDome?

Anyone?

Best wishes,

Mike.

First Panther, then with the iMac getting 1.25 gigs, the powerbook getting the 1.33 gig G4 update, followed closely with the ibook 1 gig G4 chips,followed by the new dual G5 desktops, I wonder what is next...ipod updates?

I just can't wait for the circle to come back to the powerbook line as having a dual processor or a G5 underclocked chip. Maybe OLED screens so that powerbook users finally can get 8 hours or battery time? Who knows....so on with the advancements!

My homepage:
http://www.cycle-soft.com/users/lmb/

The 20inch iMac is awesome. Zinio, the last item on the hard drive is a magazine"Mac Home"(Full Size) that not only turns the pass but alos enlarges them.Apple is missing a good selling point in not playing up this feature . Screen is supurb. Crystal clear. Needs aa new operating manual. So many outstanding features to master. At 82 years old, i am an old dog learning new tricks and love it. Would like to hear from other 20 inch users. Bob