toggle

AAPL Stock: 523.03 ( + 13.57 )

MacNN News

KB: Safari stability, OS X Server, VirtualPC

updated 06:30 pm EDT, Tue August 26, 2003

KB roundup: Apple offers some troubleshooting assistane for on Power Mac G4 (FW 800) or eMac (ATI Graphics). Meanwhile, Microsoft confirms that Virtual PC is not compatible with the new G5 Power Macs: "Virtual PC relies on a feature of the G3/G4 processors called 'pseudo little-endian mode' for increased performance when emulating a Pentium processor.... Because the new G5 processor does not support this feature, large portions of the VPC for Mac program must be rewritten and carefully tested to work properly on the G5 CPU."

by MacNN Staff

(36)

TAGS :

troubleshooting

Share the Article

Facebook Twitter Delious Slash Dot Digg

toggle

Comments

MacNN.com Reader
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Jul 2001

0

08/26, 07:22pm | report spam | close Reply |
Microsoft...

What I hear you saying is that you will not make it run any faster on a G5 that a G3/G4

MacNN.com Reader
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Jul 2001

0

08/26, 07:30pm | report spam | close Reply |
Rule #1...

Excuses now, solutions later.

MacNN.com Reader
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Jul 2001

0

08/26, 07:32pm | report spam | close Reply |
Big supprise there...

Let's see, MS gets VPC and only a few weeks later there are already major incompatabilities. Sounds like a coincidence to me...

MacNN.com Reader
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Jul 2001

0

08/26, 07:45pm | report spam | close Reply |
You are all a bunch of...

f*ing idiots....

Microsoft, as inept and devious (if the two are not a contradiction) as they are, is hardly responsible for the failure of a Connectix program to run on a computer with a brand new processor that wasn't available with the Connectix program was originally released.

If you think otherwise, then give your collective heads (and your shared brain) a shake....

MacNN.com Reader
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Jul 2001

0

08/26, 07:51pm | report spam | close Reply |
Tomorrow

the announcement will be:"We at Microsoft are proud to say that we believe that in the future, with a great deal of work from our new MBU, we can make VPC compatible with Panther. In the meantime, due to development costs, the price will have to be increased to SRP $325.00 with a continuing licence lease/fee. Unfortunately, to make VPC function properly with the new G5, speed may decrease 'slightly'. Look for it to ship in Q4 2005...."

MacNN.com Reader
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Jul 2001

0

08/26, 07:55pm | report spam | close Reply |
Maybe the real reason...

...is because they don't want Windows and Windows apps running faster on Apple hardware than it does on PCs? ;-)

j/k (kinda)

MacNN.com Reader
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Jul 2001

0

08/26, 07:55pm | report spam | close Reply |
C'mon people

C'mon guys, don't be so hard on MS. They just got this program, all the current problems are Connectix's fault.

While I am no big fan of Microsoft, I think the crazy mac fanatics should give them a break and judge their actions regarding Virtual PC once they have been taken.

On the other hand, I find it curious that Microsoft confirmed the incompability, yet hasn't mentioned what steps will be taken. I expect them to bring this up in the near future.

MacNN.com Reader
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Jul 2001

0

08/26, 07:55pm | report spam | close Reply |
Safari link/faq..

Bla bla.. They seriously want us for restart the computer if Safari crashes. Safari have a bug that makes it crash on certain pages with java error for instance. Fix that first Apple. :rolleyes:

MacNN.com Reader
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Jul 2001

0

08/26, 08:07pm | report spam | close Reply |
ummm...

"...large portions of the VPC for Mac program must be rewritten and carefully tested to work properly on the G5 CPU..."

read: we will make sure the benefits of a G5 will not result in any kinds of major performance gains when using XP. However, we are about to make sure all our spyware/dialers will work as transparent on your G5 as on a wintell box. It will also crash on a regular basis if you should try to deinstall WMP, IE...or worse; install QT. Finally, after instaling VPC/XP - your new login upon boot will be "are you really sure you want to start OSX?"

MacNN.com Reader
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Jul 2001

0

08/26, 08:22pm | report spam | close Reply |
How long have they had?

Seriously, how long has everyone known that the G5 was coming. M$ is now just comfirming that VPC is incompatiable with the G5? It's BS yet typical. I think I will just build a shuttle PC with an AMD processor and a pirated version of Windows XP Pro, oh wait, that would increase the cost of Windows XP won't it. It only they had a product that was speedy and reliable that Mac users could purchase. I know I know, poor M$ just got the program, yet it seems wierd how they were able to release version 6.1 and repackage it. If you're going to play the violin for M$, I'm gonna grab it out of your hands and snap it over your head.

MacNN.com Reader
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Jul 2001

0

08/26, 08:27pm | report spam | close Reply |
safari crash

Funny but one thing that always crashes safari for me is when I goto the red hat site and download rpms. If I click on the http download link safari will crash after a few times. Happens pretty consistently..

I'll try and delete that plist apple recommends...

MacNN.com Reader
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Jul 2001

0

08/26, 08:42pm | report spam | close Reply |
Kids...

I hate Microsoft as much as, if not more than, the next guy.

What Connectix did was to use a neat trick on PowerPCs to speed up emulation of x86 hardware. They took advantage of special instructions that handled data in a particular way that happens to be the same as x86 chips, and different from normal PowerPC and 680x0 chips. This greatly increases performance because they can do in one instruction what might otherwise take several.

However, these special instructions are only rarely used, and rarely used instructions slow down chips. Apparently, IBM axed these instructions in the G5 design. Connectix should already have had code that didn't rely on the special instructions written and tested in case they needed it, but apparently they didn't. Now, our "pals" at MS have to do it themselves.

Unfortunately, unless there is a clever trick that they can come up with (what are the chances of that?!), this could mean VPC is actually slower on the G5! And, it's not Microsoft's fault or Connectix's fault. It's because of a change in the G5, which is one of the things that probably allows the G5 to run faster.

You win some, you lose some.

MacNN.com Reader
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Jul 2001

0

08/26, 08:46pm | report spam | close Reply |
FUD

The little endian mode of the G5 is not gone and it's definitely not pseudo. It's part of the PowerPC spec and has been in every version of the PowerPC chip apple has shipped. The person that said this works on the office team and has no real contact with the VPC team. It's just FUD.

MacNN.com Reader
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Jul 2001

0

08/26, 09:38pm | report spam | close Reply |
FUD

If indeed, the G5 contains all of the architectural features needed to run VPC, then we should know Real Soon Now that versions of VPC prior to 6.1 & beyond work on a G5.

And even if there is some instruction that is either missing or significantly different in behavior, it should be possible for some enterprising (and highly skilled) soul to create a trap/patch to redirect such instructions to routines designed to mimic the desired behavior.

It most certainly IS nonsense that it would take a major effort on Microsoft's part to adapt VPC to the G5.

I wonder -- the PowerPC line does have rather comprehensive documentation -- just how tough would it be to create a G3/G4 emulator to run VPC under on a G5?

MacNN.com Reader
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Jul 2001

0

08/26, 09:43pm | report spam | close Reply |
Blah

What a bunch of cry babies. Don't use MS software if you are so against it instead of whining about it. Wimps.

MacNN.com Reader
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Jul 2001

0

08/26, 10:29pm | report spam | close Reply |
Just goes to show you...

the only good endian in a dead endian!

MacNN.com Reader
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Jul 2001

0

08/26, 11:12pm | report spam | close Reply |
FUD boy...

Yes the PPC line supports both little-edian and big-endian modes. That, however, is not exactly what the problem is. The problem is the loss of the pseudo little-endian support. This allows the CPU to run in big-endian mode (the PPC default and what Mac OS X uses) while some applications can have a sub-set of its operations run in little-endian (in a virtual sense).

Aspects of this appear to be missing in the G5 (PPC 970).

MacNN.com Reader
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Jul 2001

0

08/26, 11:14pm | report spam | close Reply |
PPC does support little E

There is something funny going on, IBM's 64-bit programming guide for the 970 states:

Page 96: "The PowerPC architecture supports both big and little-endian byte ordering."

The manual goes on to describe in detail the little-endian instructions and how the powerpc works with them. It even gives suggestions on what to use and what to avoid.

http://www-3.ibm.com/chips/techlib/techlib.nsf/techdocs/F6153E213FDD912E87256D49006C6541

MacNN.com Reader
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Jul 2001

0

08/26, 11:54pm | report spam | close Reply |
whiners

you complain about MS, then complain how you can't emulate the windows world, just go cold turkey and go completely without, or just buy an inexpensive PC and get over it. THey don't cost much... geez...

MacNN.com Reader
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Jul 2001

0

08/27, 12:09am | report spam | close Reply |
Virtual PC 5 works

perfectly - on a G5 processor.

Microsoft just sucks.

MacNN.com Reader
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Jul 2001

0

08/27, 04:12am | report spam | close Reply |
M$ is g**!

Have you ever seen Bill Gates (of delirium)? For sure, all at Microsoft are g**...

MacNN.com Reader
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Jul 2001

0

08/27, 07:15am | report spam | close Reply |
Re: How long have they h

Uh, what basis do you have for your rant. None. The day the G5 came out MS commented that they were surprised. If there is one manufacturer that does not tell developers about the future it's Apple. It has in fact not been a long time since. Then you can rant on the original developers for not getting their act together and giving a reasonable product for the G4. They still base the program on a graphics card that is very old. Admit it. The product was bad even BEFORE Microsoft acquired it. So stop blaming Microsoft for THIS bad product. Office X on the other hand, that is one bad product that does not live up to it's counterpart on the Windows side.

MacNN.com Reader
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Jul 2001

0

08/27, 09:31am | report spam | close Reply |
Death ot VPC

Microsoft will kill VPC. They will start by making it slower than the last version. This will piss people off so much that Microslut hopes they will by a PC out of lack of options. But this won't work for MicroFuck, since SoftWindows/PC is working feverishly on a G5 optimised version. ALSO, if thats not enough, Apple themselves are working on running PC c*** programs in the MAC os without 3rd party emulation and the ability to run PC prograsms A-LA CART. And to the f**** that ask why not buy a Cheap PC,f*** YOU-We only need PC emulation to run a few ancient PC s*** programs our jobs make us use because they are specialized, Everthing else in an office setting is covered nativly in OSX. f*** off and suck yourselves inside out until your girlfriends finally realize your g** and RETARDED. PC's are for the g** MAN without a doubt. Not that the g** man is bad, just a bit confused...just like a Windows user.

MacNN.com Reader
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Jul 2001

0

08/27, 10:05am | report spam | close Reply |
elttiL naidne tsum !eid

For once, I cannot blame M$ for this problem with the G5. They have fallen victim to a literally backward Intel architecture which reverses the bytes in every word of memory. I guess it began as a cheap trick to reduce the logic in early 8-bit stack-based processors. Today, it continues to cause untold headaches in cross-platform software development. There is no longer any advantage to reversing the bytes on current 32/64-bit hardware, but Intel set the precedent and now we are all stuck with it, including M$.

MacNN.com Reader
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Jul 2001

0

08/27, 11:39am | report spam | close Reply |
dumbass

MS does not care about PC sales. It cares about its sofware sales. So if VPC can make it sell more software, not hardware, then that's fine.

For those virulent people out there, would you say the same things if Connectix still makes VPC? No, that just means you are a blind zealot.

MacNN.com Reader
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Jul 2001

0

08/27, 12:02pm | report spam | close Reply |
Say again?

Rants, poor spelling, homophobia, M$ophobia.... the original report is evidently wrong, at least in so far as the 970's support for both "endians," but there still may be technical problems an emulator of another processor from the 74XX architecture to the Power9xx architecture.

As for "[W]ould you say the same things if Connectix still [made] VPC?" People certainly did, both about the sloth of the original versions of VPC 5, and their nerve in charging so much for the 5-to-6 upgrade, with little in additional features.

And for the kiddies who think M$ cares if we buy PC's or VPC --- forget it. I'm sure the volume discount to Connectix was way lower than to hp or Dell (and now, there's no discoutn at all, since M$ owns VPC): they sell you a copy of Windoze in every box.

I know it's hard for us Mac-o-philes to recognize that there's a much bigger (can you say, "twenty times bigger?") software market out there for Windoze products, but M$ bought VPC becuase of the _Windoze_ version that allows multiple instances on servers. They're continuing development on the OS X version, which is great for us, but only because it's a revenue stream. Why? Because so many of us right-thinking individuals have to use software that runs on the other 19 in-duh-viduals' systems.

MacNN.com Reader
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Jul 2001

0

08/27, 12:42pm | report spam | close Reply |
Big Ends rule!

Ha!

MacNN.com Reader
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Jul 2001

0

08/27, 03:55pm | report spam | close Reply |
I can't take this any mo

M$ will kill the Mac version. Just you see...

MacNN.com Reader
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Jul 2001

0

08/27, 04:17pm | report spam | close Reply |
No, they won't

Microsoft won't kill VPC for two reasons, one mentioned above. First, it allows them to even sell Windows to Mac users. (That's almost like getting Republicans to buy Hillary Clinton's book.) Second, if they have a nefarious plot, it's to kill Office for the Mac, and instead sell us bundles of Office for Windows with VPC. They'll cut a ton of development costs, and further dampen the independence of the Mac platform.

MacNN.com Reader
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Jul 2001

0

08/27, 04:58pm | report spam | close Reply |
A new emulator!!

Well thank god the PPC are getting back to their reduced instruction set roots and simplifying the instruction set.

I would like to propose a new development project called "Virtual Virtual PC" project which emulates the pseudo little -endian instruction on G5s. Or maybe the "Virtual^2 PC" project. What's the algorithm for flipping the bits around again?

MacNN.com Reader
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Jul 2001

0

08/27, 08:51pm | report spam | close Reply |
Waaaa

Apple surely gave Microsoft a G5 well in advance -- NOT You mac people are insane. Deal with your modicum of software and shut up about VPC. If you use VPC you are admiting your OS is insufficient. Quit crying and enjoy the power and coolness of Apple, or buy a Dell.

MacNN.com Reader
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Jul 2001

0

08/27, 09:30pm | report spam | close Reply |
re-Waaaa

You little Troll b******. the only reason for VPC is fast fading away with the release of the G5. As it stands now, OSX can connect and productivly work with microsuck networks. As stated before in this thread, the only reason we might need PC emulation is to run a few ancient PC s*** programs our jobs make us use because they are specialized, Everthing else in an office setting is covered nativly in OSX.

Having said this, please f*** off and let me jack off to the thought of you calling Microsuck to activate your OS for the hundreth time. Oh-ooh-ahhhhhhhhhhh...

MacNN.com Reader
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Jul 2001

0

08/28, 10:37am | report spam | close Reply |
Prerelease

If Apple DIDNT give MSFT a pre-release G5 to work with, then , it really is Apple's fault... they should've known better... VPC is a core application, almost as important as MS Office or Photoshop to some.

On the other hand, it is mighty suspicious that VPC 5 works fine on G5s, while V6/6.1 doesnt. That indicates (assuming for a second MSFT is telling the truth) that VPC was the version in which connectix introduced this dirty little 'hack'. Hacks can make programs run incredibly fast, but you always pay a compatibility price.

MacNN.com Reader
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Jul 2001

0

08/28, 08:01pm | report spam | close Reply |
re-Waaaa

If you can not win an argument --- swear.

You admit you need windows -> loser

MacNN.com Reader
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Jul 2001

0

10/14, 10:20pm | report spam | close Reply |
Case for VPC?

Why bother with VPC and windows? Well, I have a website, built and served on a mac. lovely. but according to my logs, 96% of my visitors use some sort of windows OS to see it. Surprise surprise, the browsers don't work the same on all platforms! Hence, the VPC solution for testing.

To argue no need to ever deal with M$ or windows, is to be just plain stupid.

Duh. Sometimes the reality bites. M$ is one of those realities.

zzarg
Forum Regular

Joined: Sep 2004

0

09/27, 04:18am | report spam | close Reply |
VPC ... vital !

for me VPC is a vital part of my conversion to the Mac, however, for a living I develop ASP.NET / SQL Server sites, so without VPC I'll have to return to a PC
Sadly, on my 12" PowerBook, VPC6 is, to say the least, sluggish (so I only use it for demos, and then only at Mac-friendly clients !) so I can't help hoping that VPC will be usable on an 867mhz G4 with 640Mb RAM....
I don't care either way about WinXP or OSX, but... I like the build of my PowerBook.
Oh, and in response to some of the more vitriol ridden posts... I'm not g**, stupid or in need of therapy !

Show More Comments

Login Here

toggle

Network Headlines

02/15	Apple asks to sue bankrupt Kodak in...
02/15	Apple voluntarily pulls iPads from...
02/15	Gartner: Apple No 1 vendor in Q4, but...
02/15	Proview: Chinese customs 'unlikely'...
02/15	Cook: iCloud over 100M users, Siri...

Show All

02/15	Apple asks to sue bankrupt Kodak in...
02/15	Apple voluntarily pulls iPads from...
02/15	Gartner: Apple No 1 vendor in Q4, but...
02/15	Proview: Chinese customs 'unlikely'...
02/15	AMD Radeon HD 7750, 7770 GHz Edition...

Show All

02/14	Apple attempting to disrupt Siri hacks...
02/14	Readability iOS app delayed, Android...
02/13	Apple launches 2012 back-to-school...
02/13	Sony Music caught inflating price for...
02/09	Apple explores environment-sensitive...

Show All

02/14	Refurb. 16GB iPhone 4, now only $259...
02/13	Refurb. Flip UltraHD Pocket Digital...
02/10	$380 off refurbished 2.8GHz Mac Pro...
02/09	iHome Dual Alarm Clock for Apple iPod...
02/08	Save 69% on SanDisk Cruzer 32GB USB...

Show All

toggle

KB: Safari stability, OS X Server, VirtualPC

updated 06:30 pm EDT, Tue August 26, 2003

Related Articles

Recent Articles

Microsoft...

Rule #1...

Big supprise there...

You are all a bunch of...

Tomorrow

Maybe the real reason...

C'mon people

Safari link/faq..

ummm...

How long have they had?

safari crash

Kids...

FUD

FUD

Blah

Just goes to show you...

FUD boy...

PPC does support little E

whiners

Virtual PC 5 works

M$ is g**!

Re: How long have they h

Death ot VPC

elttiL naidne tsum !eid

dumbass

Say again?

Big Ends rule!

I can't take this any mo

No, they won't

A new emulator!!

Waaaa

re-Waaaa

Prerelease

re-Waaaa

Case for VPC?

VPC ... vital !

Login Here

Register for our weekly email newsletter:

Connect tools:

Subscribe

to our RSS

Follow us

on Twitter

10 Most Read

10 Most Discussed

MacNN Marketplace