and i can't check on my mac. and slow emulation is not an answer.

Emulation isn't an answer for viewing a webpage?! The only thing I use VirtualPC for is proofing how webpages look on a PC. It's ideally suited for this purpose.

If Web pages don't display under Safari (or Camino or even most of the time in Mozilla), 99 times out of 100, it's because the HTML/JavaScript/Java is broken, not the browser. And 98 of those 99 are because Microsoft did the breaking. Simple-minded Web "designers" using Microsoft malware produce broken pages, supposedly giving consumers a "reason" to buy Wintel.

Just say no.

The link to the article doesn't work. It just shows a web banner. Can someone post the real link?

According to this person:

'Some of the key customer requests for web browsing on the Mac require close development between the browser and the OS, something to which only Apple has access,'

Oh, and that's different than customer requests for web browsing on the PC, because, as we all know, all web developers have enough OS access to be able to get it to work. (Or maybe they're just saying that all their customers are harping that the Aqua interface and finder don't use IE like windows does, so they just decided to kill it).

And could someone please explain to me why in the world the browser requires any interaction with the OS at all? Isn't this one of the biggest issues with IE for windows, that the whole freakin' UI is based on pieces of IE (just gotta love it when you update your windows browser only to find out its changed your workflow OUTSIDE of the browser). And doesn't the tying of the browser to the OS also then kind of s**** you over if security holes are found in the browser?

MSIE is slow, but for some sites it's still the only compatible browser on the Mac. Apple better get their act together and make Safari suck much less than it does, and real soon now!

Now if only Microsoft were to close up shop altogether...

I think some of your are being blinded by your hatred of Microsoft. As you may recall the Mac media even up until recently has referred to IE 5.x as the best browser on ANY platform. I'm not saying I love Microsoft either, some of their Office products are fine.

I will continue to use IE and Safari.

IE on PC and IE on Mac are vastly different anyway. You still have to check your sites on a PC...

Ah, if you are worried about how sites look in IE, I would bechecking them on IE in windows on VPC, no IE on mac. Mac IE and windows IE will render different. So if your boos makes you get a pc because IE for mac is dead, there's a few people I wouldn't trust at your company.

IE stopped being relavant wheen 10.1 came out.

I use it to test my pages. Between IE, Safari, and Omniweb, one will render awfully, while the others look fine.

Bad news. I too develop for the web, we need more standardisation not segmentation. It is clear that this is MS paying Apple back for introducing Safari. Bad news for Apple I am afraid. Already my bank wont accept Safari and wants IE, the list can only get longer in future as who is gonna develop for 5%?

IE 5.2 will continue to work!!! So still use it!

Didt Microsoft loose some law suit for bundling IE with Windows to the detriment of Netscape? Now they are gonna make it part of the OS!! This is what happens when you let a buly get away with it. He just comes back and tries to bully even more next time. War in Iraq? Bush should stand up to some of the Corporate Greed that is going on in the good old USA.

Why does the browser need to be 'integrated' with the OS anyway? I mean running a browser 'window' is surely enough isnt it? Even web apps manage to integrate with other bits of software without having to be bolded onto the OS itself. Sounds like a recipe for a very bad OS IMO. I guess that is what you end up with when your aim is to monopolise instead of innovate and excel.

Actually, thinking about it arnt browsers gonna be kinda obsolute soon anyway with any software able to use web apps to inteface with data all over the place? Basic HTML pages, with Java and Flash etc. should be that hard to display on any platform.

Sounds like Microsofts latest move in the .NET game.

- IE brought no money to Microsoft...only used as argument in various suits.

? Closing IE shop means greatly reduced overhead thus more profit from an already very profitable Mac Business Unit

? Apple releasing Safari gives Microsoft the ammunition they need to stop IE without raising DOJ's hackles.

- Microsoft makes (IMHO, unjustified) remarks about needing greater OS access or browser internal access to continue development in effort to justify their own approach to browser/OS control....errr....development. Regardless of the fact that Safari is not tied to the OS and the Safari web engine is open source. But let's not let facts confuse the issue...eh..

As has been already mentioned, IE for Macs has a completely different rendering engine that IE for Windows. When IE 5 for Mac first came out (OS 9), It was the best browser out there--best CSS support and more. but it hasn't changed in a long time. Now The Gecko (used in Camino, Mozilla, Netscape, etc.) rendering engine has much better standards support than IE. Safari has better standards support, as well.

Yes done with that piece of c***.
And c*** it was.

I can't believe some people still use IE on a Mac.

Some years ago, Micro$oft talked about the MBU like the biggest mac developers team after Apple team, they promised a lot of applications for Mac...

So what's up ? There is no more MBU software except Office X,no more Windows Media, no more Outlook Express for OS X, no more Internet Explorer...

That's a bad news and I'm afraid M$ will stop Office development if Apple release Apple iOffice :(

If you want to do non-Microsoft developers and users a favor (and not do MS a favor)...if you are using a PC and surfing the web, use something other than IE. Try Mozilla (www.mozilla.org -- Firebird 0.6 is cool but beta), Opera (www.opera.com), or something else and this will increase statistics against IE. One user probably won't slant the stats, but every little bit helps. Otherwise, cheap companies and lazy webmasters will keep coding their sites for only IE.

Was the Internet built for Microsoft? Their grip on the web just gets tighter and tighter, between IE and Windows Media 9. Anyway, I'll step down from my soapbox.

All it took was someone to make a better brower? They gave up pretty quick...When is Safari coming out for Windows now? ;)

I just want to point out to those people who think that web design is gonna hurt because of this are mistaken. First, Safari and Netscape/Mozilla are more standards compliant now than IE 5.2 is, at least in my experience. Second, If you were being vigilant about testing on many platforms you would need to test on the PC anyway. I did this with Virtual PC. Third, since MS is no longer developing a stand alone version of IE on the PC, the next version won't come out for another 2 years until Longhorn. In that time, as long as IE 5.2 on the Mac still runs on the latest OS Apple has, we will have as much compatability now, as we will right up until Longhorn is released.

Don

...Apple can make browser masking part of Safari. Most of the sites that need IE don't really need IE. It's the fault of lazy developers and banks that don't want to support a small percentage of users and increase their costs. (Of course if they got a good developer this wouldn't be an issue). An exception to this would be sites that use Windows only tools like activeX then you're screwed. In that situation it's time to get another bank.

From a purely personal standpoint, I could care less--I used to really like IE5 in the Classic days, but I haven't used it since Chimera 0.6 shipped some time ago. Good riddance.

From a web designer's standpoint, I'm a bit disappointed, but not very--IE Mac didn't have the same rendering engine as IE PC, but it DID have some quirks in common (like lack of support for some basic CSS pseudo-classes), so it was a good first-round check to see how things might look on a PC browser. It'll still work, of course, but won't follow future versions. However, the only way to really check is to check on a PC browser, so it's not a biggie.

[By the way, to the guy who thinks he needs a PC to check his HTML... are you serious? Aside from the fact that VPC is more than fast enough to preview a simple webpage, and gives you the ability to preview a local mirror directly, it also will let you test your page in three different IE versions running on three different versions of Windows, all without rebooting. Try that on a PC.]

Back on track, from a "grand scheme of things" standpoint, this sucks royally--MS is basically saying "Thank you for finding our integration of the browser with the OS a criminal act. Now we're going to make it worse than it was before, and cut off the only other competing platform while we're at it." IE was a good all-else-fails backup for when a website you just gotta read is so poorly designed it won't run anywhere else. When IE7 breaks even more stuff, a lot of people are going to be stuck wishing we still had a little bone from MS.

Offensive, all around. Whatever happened to the Justice in Department of Justice?

Third, since MS is no longer developing a stand alone version of IE on the PC, the next version won't come out for another 2 years until Longhorn. In that time, as long as IE 5.2 on the Mac still runs on the latest OS Apple has, we will have as much compatability now, as we will right up until Longhorn is released.

Not quite right. All they said was no more stand-alone installers. But they can still upgrade IE 6/7 simply by sticking it in an XP service pack, or under the Windows Update site (like they do now). Who knows whether it would be optional (like DirectX 9 or Media Player), but I can't imagine them just sitting there on it for 3 years. Rememner, IE 4 was going to be part of Windows 96, which became 97, which became 98. They ended up realesing an installer for 95 because they wanted to get it out there. Same could be done for XP/2000/Me and IE 7, just as an OS update instead.

Question for the MS folks: With umpteen billion dollars of revenue and an R&D budget bigger than most small countries, why is it that the Internet Explorer team is incapable of supporting a simple and very useful CSS2 pseudo-class like :hover properly? It's not like the spec has existed since *1998* or anything.

That, if you ask me, is just pathetic.

Oh yeah, this is GREAT news.

Now all the Mac-hating-stick-up-the-a**-corporate-sysadmins have ONE MORE reason to rid their networks of Macs: "I'm sorry...our MIS system REQUIRES Microsoft Internet Explorer...sorry...."

Yea -- this is great f*****' news...

IE was a bloated piece of c***. MS would never allow it to perform better on a Mac than on Windows. I am pleased to see it go and with it our browser dependence on MS.

What's next? Office? Bring it on, it's all good.

"I'm sorry...our MIS system REQUIRES Microsoft Internet Explorer...sorry...."

Where I work, the internal systems officially support Netscape 4.7 (although 7 works fine) and IE version 5.5. In fact, Windows XP purchases are banned because IE 6 is bundled with XP and theres no way to install 5.5. For some reason, IE 6 doesn't work at all.

'Some of the key customer requests for web browsing on the Mac require close development between the browser and the OS, something to which only Apple has access,'

Hmmm...I thought that all I needed to do was go to Apple's Website, and under ADC I can download the source code. I guess someone forgot to let them know.

thanks M$! Your browser sucks on the Mac anyway- just a half assed, non-multitasking, fisher price looking piece of c***. And what a nightmare is is for OS X server admins setting up networked home folders... Where the h*** are the proxy settings saved? Piece of c*** all the way. And the quote from M$ about "the part that only Apple has access to" anyways. Sounds very familiar- how ironic! Live it up M$- once your republican cronies are out of office and people have had enough of your monopolizing and proprietarizing of technology, you'll be split up into six companies like you should have been in 99.

So I guess, according to you if I am a Republican and I use Office X/IE I am a tool?

"MSIE is slow, but for some sites it's still the only compatible browser on the Mac. Apple better get their act together and make Safari suck much less than it does, and real soon now!"

Where are you surfing that Safari has sucked??? I pay all my bills and bank online with Safari. Works perfect. I've never encountered any ecommerce site that hasn't worked well.

As someone said, 99 times out 100 Safari works great. Guess what, IE works 99 times out of 100 too. Why? Because most of the time your interaction on the net is more than just the browser. Your internet experience depends a combination of your browser, processor speeds, RAM, and plugins like flash.

Also, let's not forget that if a site is written poorly it'll suck just as bad on IE as it would on Safari.

"So I guess, according to you if I am a Republican and I use Office X/IE I am a tool?"

Yes, but thanks for buying a Mac anyway.

whats up with all these zealots. vomiting at the mouth over a browser? Safari is a good browser but i cant use it with al sites. IE works on all sites i see. as a web developer..YOU DO NEED TO CHECK YOUR SITES WITH A PC RUNNING IE. 90% of your viewers are running a PC with Internet Explorer. youre not going to build a site for 2.9% of the people or is it just 2% today?. ala Mac Users. so of you guys need to pull your head out of Steve Jobs' arse.

kcusscam

"YOU DO NEED TO CHECK YOUR SITES WITH A PC RUNNING IE."

Not if you have virtual PC. Have you read any of the prior post???

Ever notice PC zealots are convinced we all love Steve Jobs? Personally, I think the guy's and arrogant SOB. However, he runs a great company with amazing products - so i buy Apple.

And by the why... what has Bill Gates brought us that has actually been innovative? I've never heard any PC guy say he 'loved' Bill Gates... ever wonder why?

SAFARI is STILL A BETA. It will kick a** soon. Look how good it ALREADY is.... GEEZ. Internet Explorer for the Mac sucks in 2003. No updates or improvements since like 2001.

I think this says it all:

"No IE 6 is planned," Sommer said in a telephone interview. "Safari is turning into a better answer for...customers."

Taken from the newly posted CNET Article. Jessica Sommer is a Product Development Manager for Microsoft.

As for Office and VPC:

"We are absolutely still on track with Office," Sommer said. "We're working on the next version of Office. We are working on the next version of Virtual PC for the Mac."

Depending on your point of view, the future may not be so bad...

"So I guess, according to you if I am a Republican and I use Office X/IE I am a tool?"

Business= Corporations
Businesses overwhelming use M$
M$ gives more money overall to Republicans
Corporations= Halliburton, Enron, Microsoft= all Bush cocksuckers.
Monopoly Suit against M$ dropped during Bush Administration.
Need I say more?

So yes, you are a tool.

Here's another odd thing. I was at a meeting last year with another development company, and asked about whether their web-based software works on a Mac. They said it would work in IE 6 (or 5.5 or something) for the mac, as they had beta versions they were testing it out with. They also mentioned it included the latest support for the DOM that IE 6/Windows had.

Guess now Mac support won't be there....

"I was at a meeting last year with another development company"
Safari didn't exist last year. What's to keep Apple from making the product as IE similar as possible to the "SSL/java/CGI or whatever" sites out there. Apple has done an amazing job thus far with Safari and there are only a handful of problems left to fix...

...and you are a sanctimonious zealot. How about a little tolenerance!!?/

Last time I looked APPLE still supported Windows with Filemaker, Appleworks, QuickTime, Web Objects &c.

Web Objects sells in the ENTERPRISE, the evil business enterprise. So does FileMaker. :. all Web Objects and Filemamer users are tools.

Appleworks... Wait! Schools requested that one?!?! On Windows too? I guess they are tools too.

"Personally, I think the guy's and arrogant SOB. However, he runs a great company with amazing products - so i buy Apple."
*********
Dude - that's such a in-the-clost statement about how much you LOVE Steve Jobs.

First the good, if Virtual PC is too slow on your Mac use MS's Remote Desktop Connection to connect to a Windows 2000 Server or XP Pro boxrunning Terminal Services, even if it's someone else's desktop, to test your web sites. I've found it to be more graceful than using Virtual PC for quick tasks (I'll even do it rather than using the PC on my desk), and my graphics guys and gals love the speed.

Now the bad, dropping IE for Mac 100% sucks for Macs in the enterprise. No matter how hard I try to stomp it out there's pinheads in another IT shop creating intranet sites on IIS boxes that require Microsoft authentication using http (rather than clear text authentication using the more secure https). For these sites there's no other choice than to use IE. Unless MS can be convinced to allow Apple access to their authentication mechinism to include it in Safari Mac users will be out in the cold, because sooner or later an Apple update to Mac OS X will break IE for Mac.

Some folks must live in a different world or something. Like the poster above said, one day an OS update will break IE 5.2 and if by that time, the release version of Safari does not maintain compatibility on that front, lot of people will be screwed. Things are not as simple as go use x-brand software. There is something called "supported software" in some shops which allows the continued usage of Mac given that IE 5.x for Mac means at least baseline support.

Safari works fine but not to the extent of being able to fully replace IE, Mozilla, Camino. Yes it is beta but if by the time it goes golden master and there are still outstanding issues, that puts the browser that much more behind in terms of the compatibility front. Folks can whine about poor web coding but that is just an unfortunate outcome of IE now (just like most everything else MS) being the major browser in use.

And the line about it will get better is getting to be old since this has been the same argument with the hardware, when OS X was still in its early development stage as Rhapsody, etc. On some fronts, we are only waiting just to catch up.

Everyone is saying 'just do this','just do that','use vpc','remote desktop to a wintel box','safari is beta'.

Sounds like a bunch of reasons for someone to NOT buy a mac or to NOT support macs in their software.

Sad. I hope safari gets it together soon. Everyone is preaching the 'perfect world' case. Things like 'Usually when a page breaks its not coded properly' etc etc etc.

Welcome to the real world. Pages often are NOT coded properly, often technology is misapplied, misused and improperly implemented. This is the way of things. Our tools need to reflect reality, not some idealized viewpoint.

Safari and Camino both don't handle the 'real world' very well. There is hope, but right now its pretty bleak.

---
it also will let you test your page in three different IE versions
running on three different versions of Windows, all without
rebooting. Try that on a PC.]
---

Haha! Pssst.. VirtualPC exists on the PC, too. Why do you think MS bought it?

There's also the (IMO) better VMWare available for PC. (as well as linux) Both allow multiple virtual machines, and since they are running on real hardware, it's a h*** of a lot better than running it in emulation. Seemed like a stupid idea at first, but for application testing, it's a dream. I can setup an entire network app on one machine.

Damn,
I was just going to relax tonight and watch "Old School". Now I have to write my congressperson, senators, Ohio DOJ, US DOJ.
Sheeeeesh.
YOU SHOULD TOO!

it's bad for web designer. i need this tool. if i don't have it, i can't work properly.

if i use a pc, i have the same tools as i have on the mac, plus the browser everybody use and i develop for. guess wich platform my boss will choose when i won't be able to work properly.

stop telling it's a good news, it's not. i don't see one good point in this. really, please, if there is a good news in this, tell me.

it's simple, you don't need it, don't use it. but for those who make a living designing webpage seen on windows, some of them will actually have to swich to windows. you say good riddance to ie, some will have to say good riddance to the mac.

No really, I mean it. This is really wonderful news from Microsoft ... and I never thought I'd hear myself say that!

With this move, IE can now be fully brushed aside and Safari made the default. Web designers who don't want to ignore more the 40% of web surfers who DON'T USE IE will be forced to adhere to good web design principles and standards at long last.

Trust me on this, folks ... this is very good news for Safari, Apple users and non-IE browser users (regardless of platform) in general.

Whatever happened to the Justice in Department of Justice?

The concept of "justice" was killed off by the Supreme Court in the 2000 election, and the decaying corpse has been used as a hackey sack by John ASScroft ever since. Pick up a newspaper sometime, dude.

Who's "right" is not usually the winner in a dispute these days -- it's who's "rich" or "connected" or "powerful." Justice is a long-gone concept in America.

the post above, it's more like 5% of web surfers who DON'T USE IE.

i was working on a project with golive. i was testing in safari and everything was perfect. i check on ie, there was a stupid mistake that made everything looks weird. if it's like this on ie mac, it also is on ie windows. imagine i don't have a pc and send these files to my client. i'm in trouble.

Let's see, me, along with every other Mac web developer just thought, "The h*** with it; I'll check my work in VPC." Hmm, could anyone in Redmond have predicted such a reaction? Did anyone in Redmond just purchase a product known as VPC? They're just yelling "Fire" in the movie house to get you to run out the door they want you coming out of.

IE has it's uses. Safari's a fine browser.

the post above, it's more like 5% of web surfers who DON'T USE IE.

i was working on a project with golive. i was testing in safari and everything was perfect. i check on ie, there was a stupid mistake that made everything looks weird. if it's like this on ie mac, it also is on ie windows. imagine i don't have a pc and send these files to my client. i'm in trouble.

...and...

it's simple, you don't need it, don't use it. but for those who make a living designing webpage seen on windows, some of them will actually have to swich to windows. you say good riddance to ie, some will have to say good riddance to the mac.

First off, this all proves the point that MS is succeeding in what they tried. By giving away IE (remember, Netscape used to cost money), then integrating it into Windows, they've basically made it the 'de facto' standard. Pages may not be 'standard', but they'll work with IE. Now, when they have this huge monopoly, MS starts to flex its muscle. Stop development for the Mac, and look, people might have to buy PCs in order to get theie web sites to work. "Sorry, our site requires IE 6. Oh, you have a Mac, sorry. Buy a PC". You people bemoaning its loss seem to be missing the REAL big picture.

Second, as has been said before on here, IE for Mac does NOT use the same engine as IE for Windows (first proof, the windows version doesn't cause half your pages to just go blank, where you have to resize the window, refresh the screen, etc, to see what's there). Therefore, YOU HAVE TO TEST ON A PC AND A MAC ANYWAYS. You can't just say "It works on my Mac, it must be OK on Windows". h***, you can't even say "It works in IE 5, it'll work in IE 6". The problem with IE is they keep adding c*** to it, without fulfilling standards support (apparently more of their customers need things like the ability to browse your file system with the browser, and don't need things like CSS2, or even PNG support).

In fact, if you look at the big picture of browser design, it was the big IE/Netscape war, where both sides tried to outdo the other in features and abilities that caused the fractured HTML language in the first place. Add in MS's clout, plus their desire to not use any 'standard' but their own 'standard+' (like Java as well), and then some 48% of you voted the republicans into office so they could drop the whole monopoly trial to a slap on the wrist (oooooh, poor MS, they had to add a way where you could change your default browser, that'll teach them), and you all have the audacity to complain about this. Its all your fault!!!

my firm's remote webmail access requires IE

this will mean trouble to me, maybe not now, but certainly some time down the road.

will need to push my firm to allow more browsers but its gonna be difficult...

There's lots of online shops etc. I have visited that simply won't let you use Safari. This is storing up a world of trouble for the future. In one move this has further marginalized Mac users. Who's going to buy a Mac when you can't buy stuff from a lot of albeit lazy e-tailers?

Choice is reduced enough by using a Mac. Choices have just got fewer.

IE Mac does not equal IE Windows!!!

For those "developers" getting all in a huff, the loss of IE 5.2 is a blessing. I've developed sites that worked fine with Gecko, KHTML, IE on windows and sucked a** on IE for the mac. Bottom line if you develop a site that works with Gecko it will work in IE for Windows which is 95% of the browsers out there. Use standards people.

To all those bemoaning the loss of IE, what can be done to keep it on the Mac?

It's a rhetorical question, because there is simply *NOTHING REASONABLE* that can be done by Apple or MS for this to happen. Here's a few ideas and my off-the-cuff response:

1) Sell IE for $49-$99. Yeah right.

2) Apple pays MS for keeping IE alive. Another pound of flesh and profitability gone.

3) Open-source MacIE. MS might do this, but only to bleed resources from Camino development.

4) Apple buys IE and replaces Safari. I can't even dignify this comment :-)

I'm out of ideas, but the fact remains that IE is finished. F it and the company that made it.

and the objectivity of most of its users. IE sucks ? You've been using it for years and only because Safari has been out for a short time, this makes IE the worst browser you could think of ? Just like Mac OS 9 you had been using for years is just the dirtiest piece of junk now that you use OS X ? Quark vs InDesign ? Etc.

Pathetic...

> and the objectivity of most of its users.
> IE sucks ? You've been using it for years
> and only because Safari has been out for a
> short time, this makes IE the worst browser
> you could think of ?

For most people and many years, IE was the
only browser out there. Those of us who know
better dumped IE even before Jobs made that
pact with the Devil in August 1997. We were
using other browers for practical, philosophical,
and moral reasons.

> Just like Mac OS 9 you had been using
> for years is just the dirtiest piece of
> junk now that you use OS X ?

That's right, in 1997, I bought a PC with Linux
and used it more and more. My Mac was relegated
to a second-class machine until 10.1 came out.

> Quark vs InDesign ? Etc.

My company dumped Quark after years of abuse. We
went to FrameMaker and then to Indesign. So yes,
Quark sucked, but like Apple, their users were
a captive audience.

IE has been the worst browser on the Mac since OS X.1.

We've got Camino/Chimera - Awesome.
Safari - Awesome.
Omniweb - Very hot.
Opera - Nicely done.
Netscape 7 - Decent.
iCab - Cool.
Internet Explorer - For Wankers.

So, no, we didn't have to wait until Safari came out to realize IE was the bottom of the heap. For a lot of people, though, Apple's brand name and distributional advantage for Safari helped Mac users realize what a pathetic product IE really was.

Now if only Apple releases an Office Suite and SQL-based database application, I would be deleting all references to Microsoft on my computer within minutes. That would be sweet!

Coincidentally, making IE Windows-only pretty much sealed any chance of Internet Explorer being a web standard. It's now a Windows standard. Proprietary, closed, and completely inadequate for enterprise development unless companies now want one-vendor lockdown in their IT infrastructure.

"We were using other browers for practical, philosophical,
and moral reasons."

You refuse to use any MS product for philosophical or moral reasons ? Come on. For many years, MS products were really bad (remember Windows 3.1 ?). I used to think like you do. Until I realized some MS products were not only not that bad but some of them rather good if not very good. If you keep ignoring MS for such reasons, it's up to you but you should try to keep up with MS new products. I'm not saying you should necessarily use them but just know they are there. If you puke on Windows 2000 Pro because your last experience of Windows goes back to Win95, you can't be taken seriously by a PC user. Our PCs running Win2000 Pro are more stable than our XServe. They never crashed... so far ;-) unlike the OS X Finder. It's a good thing we can restart it using command lines through SSH software. Without this, we would have to force shut it down. With a 1 Tb RAID5, it's a 90 minutes wait until it's back up and running.

" and the objectivity of most of its users. IE sucks ? You've been using it for years and only because Safari has been out for a short time, this makes IE the worst browser you could think of ? Just like Mac OS 9 you had been using for years is just the dirtiest piece of junk now that you use OS X ? Quark vs InDesign ? Etc. "

Nooooo, the last time I used IE as my default browser was OSX Public Beta. This was over TWO YEARS AGO! Since then there have only been minor updates to that P.O.S. So people aren't suddenly turning against IE that's been happening as early as 10.0 and definitely since 10.1

OS9 was a piece of c***. Win 2K pro ran circles around my Dual G4 with the same amount of ram and same 500mhz processor speed (mind you the G4 had 2 procs). OS9 crashed at least 1-2 x per week and couldn't multitask to save it's life. OSX although slower then 9 in the beginning was a joy to use because of it's stability and multitasking. With 10.2 and dual procs OS9 doesn't even come close in speed. So yeah OS9 sucks and has for at least 3 years now.

>> "We were using other browers for practical,
>> philosophical, and moral reasons."

> You refuse to use any MS product for
> philosophical or moral reasons ?

You effin' freak - I said I don't use MSIE
on either Mac or PC. I use other MS products
when they are the better product.

However, you know in your heart they got that
way via unethical and illegal means. Sleep well,
little boy.

MS used to supply IEmac for free. Now with it dead and the fact that they "just so happen" to now own VPCmac, MS will now be able to charge up the a** for the chance to use IE on the mac. They know there are mac holdouts who won't buy a winbox, so now those poor b******* have to buy VPC and a Windows license to use IE. Big cash for what used to be a free download. Guess what? If you don't want to use an emulator then you have to switch to the dark side and buy a winbox with a windows license. MS is going to come out ahead financially on this one. And they save the development costs of IEmac to boot. I love it. No matter what they do, they profit heavily.