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Columnist on Mac OS X "push"

updated 10:10 pm EST, Mon November 25, 2002

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ComputerUser.com has published a short editorial that examines While many Mac users are satisfied with the selection of software available for Mac OS X, graphics professionals are struggling with the transition. OS X versions of many critical software titles remain absent, and this has left some firms with few options: "We will buy no new Macs next year, period," said IT director Steve Swanson, reffering to the fact that Macs in 2003 will only be able to run OS X. The department Mr. Swanson runs uses Quark Xpress, and a "stable" OS X version of that application will not be available for some time.

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11/25, 10:32pm | report spam | close Reply |
So Sad

I manage the graphic/publishing department for our firm. We love OS X, but with no Quark, we can not switch. We are tempted to move over to InDesign, but all of our templates are Quarked based. All of our client's ad agencies use Quark. Our printers prefer Quark.

Why doesn't Apple take care of its core customers in the education and publishing fields first. These two consumer bases built Apple and kept it alive.

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11/25, 10:40pm | report spam | close Reply |
Quark

Indesign works well with Quark files. Time to show Quark the door, it deserves to be dumped after ripping the design market blind for so long.

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11/25, 10:44pm | report spam | close Reply |
Sad - but for Quark

" Why doesn't Apple take care of its core customers in the education and publishing fields first. These two consumer bases built Apple and kept it alive."

Aside from Apple porting Xpress to OS X themselves, there isn't much they can do. For them to stop selling OS 9 machines is completely reasonable; OS X will have been out for almost 2 years by then.

Quark just needs to get with the program. Heck even the crusty Director was just anounced for OS X.

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11/25, 10:50pm | report spam | close Reply |
Theory vs. Practice

I run and own a service bureau and this Quark roadblock is gibberish.
Myth 1: QuarkXPress is not usuable/stable under classic,
Truth, QuarkXPress runs just fine under Classic, I have used it to build complex 4/C projects and then run proofs and film directly from the file.

Myth 2: I can't print from Quark to my USB printer
Truth: With the combination of the easy to install Gimp Print drivers and the ESP Ghostscript you can obtain stunning output from any inkjet printer simply by postscripting from Quark and dragging the postscript file into Print Center. (which is much less confusing than the Epson/Birmy RIP solutions.)

Myth 3: Fonts in OS X are confusing
Truth: Yes they are, Apple has made this even more difficult with the reliance on Helvetica (dfont) which most designers will want to switch out with an Adobe Type 1 version (requires root priviledges) but this can be done easily if you know what to do ahead of time, Extensis Suitcase remains a very useful tool especially since it will activate fonts in Classic as well as in OS X.

In Design is a good choice but it does require a certain degree of learning and knowledge before switching to it. Quark will get it's act together sooner or later and this is a great opportunity to make a switch while leaving your quark users in an environment that they are semi used to (classic).

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11/25, 10:52pm | report spam | close Reply |
Transition woes abound...

Don't kid yourselves, if you are doing more than letters & very specific 'X' work, 10.1 is a joke - my MLS is inaccessible with IE, accounting options are virtually nil & in transition, legacy printers & scanners are left in the dust & they didn't even get mail right (flawed imports)... I simply can't fathom Apple charging 10.1 users for 10.2 - it is a b^%$y bug fix...

I went out & bought a couple of PCs to get my darn work done & while XP isn't as beautiful as Mac OS X - it is far faster, cheaper, easier & things actually work...

Go figure...

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11/25, 11:03pm | report spam | close Reply |
Quark is better

I've done many Quark Desktop Publishing projects in OS X v10.1.5 and v10.2.2 Classic and Quark was more stable than it ever was in any version of OS 9 on my Mac before. Epson's StylusRip works great in Classic and though my Epson 1520 printer doesn't have any OS X drivers available, printing using Classic apps works fine.

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11/25, 11:17pm | report spam | close Reply |
I am a graphics pro

Uh, been in OS X for 6 months now, dumped Quark for InDesign, Printers have no problem with it, opens Quark files with little problem(and Quark does work fine in classic). My only complaint is font handling needs a bloody PhD.

Otherwise, it is just fear and the inability to adapt or no budget that keeps people from moving, so I assume they will not be in business much longer, as there are many people who are willing to adapt, change and learn new things. business is good, and investing in your own business seems like the best idea in todays economic environment.

I have yet to find an application that i cannot do without in OS X. Been wanting to get rid of Quark for years, It is terrible, InDesign makes it look prehistoric(and it is not even that great, but Quark is just so bad).

The Dinosaurs couldn't adapt, look what happened to them.

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11/25, 11:20pm | report spam | close Reply |
Adobe

While we're at it, although Adobe has OSX versions, they are certainly poor performers relative to the 9.2 versions. Neither photoshop or after effects make much use of the Dual Processing architecture. So while there are marginal benefits for a 1 GIG photoshop over a 800 MHZ photoshop, it certainly doesn't mean much, particularly now that everything is dual gig. Don't want to sit and listen to a LOUD computer if all it's doing is cooling an idle processor.

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11/25, 11:23pm | report spam | close Reply |
Font Nonsense

Designers continued insistence on "switching out" TrueType fonts for Type 1 is like the Loch Ness Monster, Bigfoot, and alien abductions rolled into one. The reasons for doing it haven't been a serious factor for more than a decade, yet these troglodytes whine on about it like it was a mighty plague.

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11/25, 11:28pm | report spam | close Reply |
i ve had it

10.2 WAS NOT A BUG FIX. its a f***** new upgrade with so much more s*** than before. QUIT your fucki whinging and go buy it. WINXP PRO is way more, and dont f*** with the WINXP HOME s*** its sucks. XP starts out snappy and quick, wait a month or to and then we begin the PC h***. OS X (10.2) is the best no doubt a bout it. f***** BABY

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11/25, 11:36pm | report spam | close Reply |
Ignorance!

The reason for the "whining" is that these designers are at the mercy of the final destination of their files...a PostScript RIP. When a Service Bureau or Commercial Printer invests $10,000-$60,000 in a RIP the designer is expected to use fonts that image correctly on that device, If you know anything about the inner matrixes of fonts you would understand the difference. Please have at least a slight education on a subject before you begin broadly labeling people as "whiners". Truetype will soon be replaced by OpenType which has the professional hints and kerning of a type 1 font with the simplicity and ease of use of TrueType, plus it was developed in part by Adobe. Truetype was whipped up as a slap in the face to Adobe's licensing stranglehold on PostScript Interpretation.

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11/26, 12:20am | report spam | close Reply |
They have a point

Even thought i do graphic design, and am happily a os x verteran at this point, i can understand the plight of the printing industry- and im sure apple does too. common sense will tell you all that apple is still working out the kinks with our modern os's print/graphics engines, so that makes it a a no-no in a critical printing enviornment in which everything must work.
Some points i'd like to add is:

- the person who wrote this article obviously does not want to leave ol' os 9, and thee slanted way in which the aricle is written eschews that fact- these types will always have a problem with os x.

- for the record, QUARK WORKS GREAT IN CLASSIC, AND 10.2 CLASSIC IS MORE STABLE THAN OS 9 EVER WAS. os 9's fragile stablitiy made me want to puke, and who for the life of me misses seein the goddamned bomb with error code-1010 while you r system freezes!!??

- at this point, the only people who "cant" move to x are the ones who depend on very specialized hardware/software industries, like music and certain forms of print. anyone else can just plain old shut up- keep with yer 'satble' os 9 and updated applications...lol

Apple simply need to hire 10 -50 more f***** gprogrammers and dedicate them to the print industry, give them their own building, whatever. thats the biggest reasons adoption rates ahave been so slow- the largest core mac market has its hands tied, while quark eats its own s*** and likes it.

This should also serve as a lesson to the print industry- once you commit yerself, to only one standard, you are at its mercy if it stagnates or not. you yall are all eating yer own s*** as well.

so while all these a******* and 'understandibly concerned' mac-sters b**** moan, complain, and otheer, i am busy enjoying computing as it should be- stable, robust, and best of all it hads a mac logo on it.

and illustrator, mail, and aical are the only os x apps that i have seen that run like true s***- blame the programmers- photoshop 7 rules!!!!!

testudo
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11/26, 12:20am | report spam | close Reply |
Re: Ignorance

OpenType will fail as horrific a death as TrueType, and for the exact same reasons. The Postscript RIP. No one is going to use OpenType if the printer is going to want PostScript, and the printers don't just upgrade $50,000 printers on a whim or theoretical new direction. Not to mention the printing industry is one of the most 'restrictive' (i.e. 'we do it this way and that's all there is to it') areas of business. They're not known to reach out and change without a very, very, very good reason (again, why else would Quark even still be around).

And TrueType might have been 'whipped' up, but its whole lot better then the alternatives, bitmapped fonts or paying to use PostScript ones.

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11/26, 12:26am | report spam | close Reply |
InDesign

InDesign is great for reading QuarkXPress files in OS X. Also, with 10.2, Quark runs much better in Classic and prints as smoothly as any carbonized app for me. But that's for an inkjet; if you're going to a service bureau, use InDesign to print the Quark document as a PDF file. Then everything (graphics, fonts, text) is embedded and it won't matter if your service bureau accepts InDesign files or not. Of course, the problem comes with larger PDF files that take forever to RIP.

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11/26, 12:46am | report spam | close Reply |
Waiting for Hypercard X

Apple should release Hypercard for OS X. It's the only Apple product still missing from OS X, and we need it. It's long overdue and far more important than yet another iApp.

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11/26, 02:50am | report spam | close Reply |
about truetype fonts

you dont use truetype fonts when out putting film. period. i sure as h*** dont want to have my film output courier cause i used a truetype font. and mixing truetype and postscript is even worse. take about all kinds of ripping errors. remeber, you do things the right way in the first place so you dont get all those little extra fees where you fuxored up and decided you didnt want to pay for a postscript font. if you dont know the industry, you dont know what you are talking about.

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11/26, 02:52am | report spam | close Reply |
my little saying

this is what i say when if comes to the OS9/OSX debate.

OS 10s for grins, OS 9s for design. it just works

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11/26, 02:56am | report spam | close Reply |
about truetype fonts

you dont use truetype fonts when out putting film. period. i sure as h*** dont want to have my film output courier cause i used a truetype font. and mixing truetype and postscript is even worse. take about all kinds of ripping errors. remeber, you do things the right way in the first place so you dont get all those little extra fees where you fuxored up and decided you didnt want to pay for a postscript font. if you dont know the industry, you dont know what you are talking about.

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11/26, 04:59am | report spam | close Reply |
Why we have this TT mess

A History lesson:
TrueType was created and defined by Apple to be superior to Postscript Type 1 fonts and not bound to Adobes high priced Postscript license. So why do we have this problems?
Well problem 1: "You can't rip TT fonts on a professional level!", True because the industry is bound to Postscript RIP licensed from Adobe! and do You think that Adobe would implement good TT support in Postscript and kill its own market?
Problem 2: "TT superior!?, BS! I get terrible TT fonts!", Once up on a time Apple and a big Redmond company made peace, and in an agreement the Redmond company agreed to make a license free Postscript interpreter available to Apple if they got to use TrueType in their OS-like software. Well, the interpreter never got released and their TT renderer only supported a subset of the whole TT specification, so TT designers were faced with only using the Redmond subset for a bigger user base or use these nice pro-like stuff on the Mac, that would no be used anyway due to Adobes grip over the RIPs.

So much of this trouble is actually the graphics industry own fault, to putting up with Adobe and Quarks trying to own the market.

Regarding Fonts in OSX, put them in Your Classics "System->Fonts" folder if You want them around all time, put them in OSX "Library->Fonts" if You only need them in OSX (Or if You want them only for a specific user, put them in that users "Library->Fonts" ). No big deal.
Or do what graphic professionals always have done, get Suitcase or a similar product and get over it!

And Yes, Quark 4.x does work as good or even better in Classic than running under OS 8/9.

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11/26, 06:42am | report spam | close Reply |
and my little saying....

OS 9's for......
Wait, I have to reboot. It just froze again.

Whiners and Trolls. Do we expect more from MacNN?

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11/26, 07:51am | report spam | close Reply |
Forget Quark

You might as well stop waiting and move to InDesign. The mental escapee who calls himself the CEO of Quark said at a meeting last week that "the Macintosh platform is shrinking" and "publishing is dying," and told those "dissatisfied with Quark's Mac commitment" to "switch to something else"-- ominously warning attendees that switching to Adobe's InDesign would be "committing suicide." Whee! Insanity 1, Mac Users 0.

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11/26, 07:53am | report spam | close Reply |
Time to grow up....

Those who choose not to upgrade to OS X are just stubborn uneducated "children". If you did your homework, you would see there are a lot of open-source or freeware options (which you don't have or never will have in OS 9.x). There are third-party printer drivers that offer more features than the native drivers themselves. Theare many alternatives to the software used under OS 9 because we now have a huge (and growing) developer base for OS X.

The answer to RIP problems is PDFs! Printers like PDFs over native files. With a PDF they don't have less liability for errors in layouts and such.

The only problem is PDF apps/tools are lacking in the graphics field under OS X. Yes you can rip a PDF out of most apps in OS X but they pale in comparison to an Acrobat PDF. Adobe needs to kick it into gear and get Acrobat 6 out the door. We NEED a Distiller that runs in OS X (Distiller that's with Acrobat 5.0.5 runs like c*** in Classic).

As far as Quark goes...dump it! It's an obsolete piece of software. InDesign is the way to go. I've been using it since 1.5.x and 2.0 is killer. I use it in production environment with larger format printers and commercial printers. I've yet to have a job not print. The commercial printers I dealt with loved the fact I was sending PDFs.

It's time to realize that things will change. OS X is a change for the better. That Quark is no longer the "top dog" and that InDesign is a serious contender for graphics professionals.

It's time to GROW UP! Stop bitching and look for solutions, your a Mac user not a helpless PC weeney.

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11/26, 07:57am | report spam | close Reply |
Correction...

It's still early...

"With a PDF they don't have less liability for errors in layouts and such."

�they have less liability�

Thanks.

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11/26, 08:57am | report spam | close Reply |
Re: it's time to grow up

Well let's see, when I couldn't access my MLS site with Apple's OS-X & IE, Netscape, OmniWeb, Navigator & Mozilla I had 2 choices - refer tens of thousands of dollars worth of business or buy a PC...

I could also sell my Epson 3000 printer, or buy 10.2 (for CUPS) - but it's not a 'bug' fix - it's a 'feature'...

I can't import my e-mail groups from Outlook, so I guess I'll just spend a couple of days re-ordering them manually, as well as checking all the data, which wasn't imported properly (only 1 e-mail address for each contact) - apparently fixed in 10.2 ?

There is one current accounting package that I can find, (and it doesn't compare to PCware) but I guess getting invoices out to clients isn't really a priority after all, because I am just so happy on OS-X I won't need money!

And then there is ACT - recommended as THE solution for contact management on the Mac - (anyone remember PowerTalk?) - well if anyone knows how to get my lengthy history records exported - other than moving to the PC version - I'm all ears...

So those people who call some of us whiners are welcome to volunteer in my biz - I'll take the PC & they can take my Ti & see who will actually make enough money to 'stay in business' - I think that was one issue?

Oh & by the way - XP is at least twice as fast even browsing - so in my experience - it has been a real treat...

I am so far 'delighted' with my XP experience & completely frustrated with my OS-X experience...

I'm glad so many people are having better luck with X than I - my Mac patronage has been exclusive for 10 years... As for being a whimp - well as I said, you are welcome to come on over & prove me wrong...

OS-X has been a nightmare for me...

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11/26, 09:55am | report spam | close Reply |
Re: it's time to grow up

OSX is simply not where OS 9 is as far as support for publishing. It's got nothing to do with Quark XPress either, it's got to do with drivers. And it has to do with accurate color calibration. And it has to do with X's **lousy** PDF creation capabilities. And it has to do with a lack of support for older high-end scanners.

The last 3 printers that I sent InDesign jobs to couldn't rip them from PDF's generated by ID. I had to create EPS files and then use Distiller in Classic to generate usable PDF's.

O.K., I love some of the features of InDesign and I absolutely love OS 10.2, but my computer is a tool for getting my design work created so I use X when I'm designing for the web and I use a computer reserved for OS 9 when I'm designing for print.

And...you don't need to be such a pompous a**.

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11/26, 10:34am | report spam | close Reply |
PC users

PC users just are pompous asses. Keep in mind, this is a person who was itching to switch and needed an excuse. There is no reason somebody has to upgrade their system TODAY! They can use OS 9 or run in CLASSIC. I work with printers and researchers and they all are staying on MAC. I have switched people to OS X and have been able to accomplish everything they did before. Some prefer to use CLASSIC and some prefer to reboot to OS 9 (which takes all of about 2 minutes. Go get a cup of coffee!).

I can't wait till that XP user has XP trouble (I guarantee, it will happen). I also hope they find a new forum to write to. I'm sure there is some sort of WINNN out there that they can complain at. They will sadly miss their Mac in the future. Especially when they see their Mac run competition blow them away in the near future.

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11/26, 10:48am | report spam | close Reply |
Re: PC Users

This XP user still has his Mac, and after trying every browser I could get my hands on, gave up in exasperation - hardly itching to switch - but XP sure works for me...

I was very pleasantly surprised - you might be too...

Oh & the cost? A 1Ghz P3 running XP Home for $200 US open box w/warranty - less than the cost of just the 10.1/10.2 'upgrades' - although it wasn't about the money - I lost far more in time trying to get the darn Mac to work...

How pompous of me!

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11/26, 11:04am | report spam | close Reply |
Freaking windolts

Gawd. Go ahead and USE your fisher price certified XP then! Nobody frikin cares!

XP "works". Good for XP. IMHO, "works" is different then "works like s***". Especially with a 1 Ghz P3 running it. What kind of moron are you? A 1 Ghz P3 is what, equivalent to a 604e? Give me a break!

I guess you don't need a fast processor to run mindsweeper, heh.

You found it harder to get a mac working then windows? lol. You really MUST be a windolt. XP hardly has an intitive interface. Proly you've been using windows all your life, and your to stupid to learn anything else. Good for you. One less moron for the mac community to deal with.

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11/26, 11:10am | report spam | close Reply |
Re: It's time to grow up

"I couldn't access my MLS site with Apple's OS-X & IE"

What's an "MLS" site?

"I could also sell my Epson 3000 printer, or buy 10.2 (for CUPS) - but it's not a 'bug' fix - it's a 'feature'..."

Why, yes, it is. Apple's adoption of that open source printing architecture gave OS X the ability to print to HUNDREDS of output devices thta would never have been supported otherwise.

"I can't import my e-mail groups from Outlook"

Get Export-Import Entourage X from versiontracker or applescriptcentral.

"There is one current accounting package that I can find"

I found 8 business-oriented accounting packages on versiontracker. At guide.apple.com, there are at least 150 OS X native accounting-related products listed. You may be able to locate a suitable package at one of those sites...

" And then there is ACT...well if anyone knows how to get my lengthy history records exported"

Does ACT! not support export? If not, I can't believe someone would recommend that application to you.

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11/26, 11:13am | report spam | close Reply |
Browsing

And another thing.

BROWSING THE WEB IN OS X IS NOT SLOW.

Whatever moron propagated that myth aught to be shot. Sure browsing in OS X is slow- IF YOU'RE USING FRIKIN IE. But nobody uses IE. IE sucks s***. Always has.

People now use a little something called Chimera. Chimera with pipelining. And it's f****** fast. On a broadband connection, pages show up instantly. No wait at all.

So get a f****** clue, or at least get a real web browser next time.

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11/26, 11:30am | report spam | close Reply |
Re: re: It's time to gro

I've tried Chimera - yes much faster but poor JAVA - didn't work... IE was 'frickin' closest to date...

Does Apple's Mail have export? You may be stuck? PowerTalk trapped me too, for a long time... :-)

ACT was recommended on the Apple site to work with PowerTalk & FaxTF... The premier app at the time... Only exports on PC side & I managed to sync with Palm from there - but many fields left out... Disasterville & dealers couldn't help...

CUPS just allows the use of my current printer - which worked out of the box with XP - so it would only be a feature if it added something, not fixed a problem...

Thanks for the suggestions - nice to know foul language isn't the only response on these newsgroups...

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11/26, 11:58am | report spam | close Reply |
Sum it up

First, lets look at ID vs Quark:
Quark's container approach vs ID's Pagemaker like drop it wherever you like is a big concern, Quark limits the designer to constructing much better content, ID still allows lots of gremlins and extra objects just because they clicked erroneuosly in the wrong place. ID's new features with drop shadows, soft edges and other compositing tools are a nightmare for people printing to postscript. Adobe is to blame for not supplying us with a professional level PDF editing and printing environment, the rips would not need to be upgraded if Adobe gave us software we could print PDFs from.

MLS is switching their system over to a completely web based system to address this exact problem, Virtual PC works fine with System 4 workstation for now.

ACT-I have recently converted an ACT database (PC) over to Filemaker Pro (PC). This is not Apples fault, this is ACT's fault, if you think you can export your notes and histories on the PC you would be wrong. You are required to purchase third party plugins for ACT to get your histories and notes (Export Pro, $300).

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11/26, 01:02pm | report spam | close Reply |
Print Media people suck

Afraid of upgrading? You are WEAK. Deal with it. OS X is the Mac OS, bow down!! "Oh but stability" - Mac OS 9 was never stable in the first place. Stop living in your mono-tasking dark ages.

phowson
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11/26, 02:39pm | report spam | close Reply |
Let it go.

I have had no problem generating print jobs from OS X and have used ID and Quark. The fact of the matter is that the person who called the CEO of Quark a lunatic is dead on target. I met him when Adobe had just announced the beta version of InDesign and his arrogance was amazing.

All of the competent commercial printers I know have test beds to try out new things and are testing In Design under OS X. While they may be slow to move completely, that doesn't mean that they won't change. The more clients change, the more printers will change. They aren't going to change if they don't have to.

What's with the bitching at people who change platforms or refuse to upgrade to the latest and allegedly greatest. I'm not seeing why it's worth all of this name calling and bitching and whining. I can't imagine that you don't have anything better to do. If we could only harness all of that energy and put it toward something productive.

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11/26, 03:05pm | report spam | close Reply |
Quark

HAH! "a stable version of Quark" what a joke. I have to use Quark on a Wintel machine everyday and I can tell you there is NO stable version of Quark.... give me a MacOSX machine anyday!

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Columnist on Mac OS X "push"

updated 10:10 pm EST, Mon November 25, 2002

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