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Apple updates Power Mac G4 line

updated 09:05 am EDT, Tue August 13, 2002

Apple today unveiled its new Power Mac G4 product line--each featuring dual PowerPC G4 processors, the new Xserve high-performance architecture with support for up to 2GB of Double Data Rate (DDR) memory at up to 333 MHz, an ATI Radeon 9000 Pro graphics card with 64MB of DDR SDRAM and an "enhanced enclosure with increased storage up to nearly half a terabyte." The new Power Macs also ship with Mac OS X "Jaguar" pre-installed. The Power Mac dual 867 MHz and dual 1 GHz processor models are available this week, while the dual 1.25 GHz processor Power Mac G4 is expected to be available in the second half of September.

dual 867MHz/nVidia GeForce4 MX with 32MB/256MB/60GB 7,200 rpm ATA drive/Combo Drive/1MB DDR L3 Cache--$1,699
dual 1GHz/256MB/ATI Radeon 9000 Pro with 64MB/256MB/80GB 7,200 rpm ATA drive/SuperDrive/1MB DDR L3 Cache--$2,499
dual 1.25GHz/512MB/ATI Radeon 9000 Pro with 64MB/512MB/120GB 7,200 rpm ATA drive/SuperDrive/2MB DDR L3 Cache--$3,299

The dual-867MHz model has a 133MHz system bus, while the dual-1GHz and dual-1.25MHz models have 167MHz (requiring faster memory).

The low-end and mid-range models feature 1MB of DDR L3 cache per processor, while the high-end model offers 2MB of DDR L3 per processor.
The new Power Macs use the Xserve architecture for support of up to 2GB of memory via four slots.

The ATI Radeon 9000 Pro graphics card has 64MB of DDR SDRAM across a quad-pipe architecture that delivers four parallel, pixel rendering pipelines, while the NVIDIA GeForce4 Ti graphics card, available as BTO, has a 128MB frame buffer of DDR SDRAM.

The Power Macs have dual ATA interfaces, one Ultra ATA/100 and one Ultra ATA/66, and you can put two drives on each interface for a total of four internal hard drives.

The new Power Mac G4 case now includes support for four 3.5" internal drive bays and two optical drive bays.
There are now four Power Mac models in the educational channel. The low-end Power Mac, which has a single 867MHz processor, still uses the old casing and sells for $1,252. The three other Powermacs are all dual, weighing in at 867, 1Ghz and 1.25Ghz, priced at $1,597, $2,349, and $3,101 respectively.

by MacNN Staff

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08/13, 09:13am | report spam | close Reply |
woop

dy do da

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08/13, 09:15am | report spam | close Reply |
New Case design?

Will we ever see a new case design? This is getting kind of old.

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08/13, 09:19am | report spam | close Reply |
four holes in front

what are those holes in the front??

only 1.25... I�m pretty disappointed...

mrl14
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08/13, 09:21am | report spam | close Reply |
lame

wow apple finally moved to ata/100 but onl 2 of 4 drives can use it...where is ata/133? and ooh no we got DDR ram...i also read the bus is only at 167mhz too!! Oh apple...so you've effectively managed to keep within half of the speed of Intels P4...well Intel has a 3ghz chip coming out in December...does that mean 1.5ghz DP macs are coming in Feb?? LAME i say but oh well....

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08/13, 09:24am | report spam | close Reply |
Too slow / too expensive

The Processor is too slow (compared to what you can get on the Dark Side). The components around the processors are good. But the price is really too expensive on the third one which is not even available before September.

Changing the mouse and adding 1 or 2 buttons would have been a good idea since Apple is now shipping an application that requires multiple buttons.

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08/13, 09:25am | report spam | close Reply |
Good stuff

The dual 1.25 looks like a good machine. That 2nd meg of L3 cache (on each proc.) and new system controllers plus the DDR ram should help things tremdendously.

mrl14 go buy a 3ghz Intel then and enjoy

jerome
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08/13, 09:26am | report spam | close Reply |
Ugly piece of ?%$#

Ugly, not enough, deceiving, once again! This machine should have been here over a year ago! It doesn't feel very new right now has it's already outdated.

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08/13, 09:28am | report spam | close Reply |
pricing

just for a split second there i considered buying a g4 when i saw that 1699 tag and "up to dual" near side by side... i had a weird thought that apple might have actually realized just how insane their pricing is and that for the price of their so called "ultimate" anyone can get a... eh... nevermind that... of course all thoughts of getting a mac were instantly removed from my head once i clicked on the "store" menu button... oh well... perhaps some day...

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08/13, 09:29am | report spam | close Reply |
pricing

just for a split second there i considered buying a g4 when i saw that 1699 tag and "up to dual" near side by side... i had a weird thought that apple might have actually realized just how insane their pricing is and that for the price of their so called "ultimate" anyone can get a... eh... nevermind that... of course all thoughts of getting a mac were instantly removed from my head once i clicked on the "store" menu button... oh well... perhaps some day...

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08/13, 09:33am | report spam | close Reply |
To slow?

You think a dual 1ghz is slow?

Go buy the fastest PC that you can find, Load XP and then start a race between the two of them.

Yeah, the XP is fast, but the Mac with X,
--- oh momma.

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08/13, 09:41am | report spam | close Reply |
ddr half way

Looks like the DDR implementation is just like the one on the Xserve, i.e only between RAM and system controller, leaving the RAM->CPU bus without DDR. weak as pi$$

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08/13, 09:42am | report spam | close Reply |
I wonder...

...if some of you even know what the h**l you're whining about. If all we got was a 1.25 GHz single processor Mac, I'd probably be pissed. But ALL OF THE MACHINES ARE DUAL PROCESSOR, for about the same price you would have paid YESTERDAY for a single processor machine! Has the MS / Intel Jedi mind trick affected you all so much?!?

I'm looking forward to seeing some more benchmarks on a DP 1.25Mhz Mac against a 2.5 GHz Pentium 4 running programs other than Photoshop. These new machines w/ OSX 10.2 should perform very favorably against the Darkside.

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08/13, 09:42am | report spam | close Reply |
Hand grip

whats the row of 4 "indents" for

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08/13, 09:45am | report spam | close Reply |
Nice!

Nice workstation.
I love the formula one holes in the front as well.

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08/13, 09:49am | report spam | close Reply |
Hand grip

whats the row of 4 "indents" for

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08/13, 09:50am | report spam | close Reply |
As a G4/400 user...

I'm pretty excited about even the slowest configuration

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08/13, 09:51am | report spam | close Reply |
Good, Bad & Ugly:

The Good:
--DDR across the board
--Dualies across the board
--167 bus in top 2 models
--Level 3 Cache across the board
--25% Speed bump is decent (or would be if the P4 wasn't at 2.53)
--Analog audio-in port is back, thank G-d!
--Front headphone jack
--ATA/100 drives, yay!
--HD size bump to 60/80/120 standard
--Up to 4 internal drives, either ATA/100,ATA/66 or SCSI
--Up to 2 GB RAM
--2nd Optical Bay
--Base model bumped from CD-RW to Combo Drive standard
--ADC, VGA *and* DVI ports (DVI to VGA adapter included!)
--Radeon 9000 standard on top two models
--Still includes OS 9.2 as full dual-boot (whew!)

--eMac now available w/SuperDrive & 800 MHz G4, $1,499
--eMac Combo Drive dropped $100 to $1,099 (replaces CD-RW model)
--iMacs dropped back to original $1,299/$1,499 prices

The Bad:
--Not "true" DDR (RAM is, FSB isn't) (Xserve version)
--No FireWire 2, no additional FW ports
--No USB 2, no additional USB ports
--2nd Optical Bay only has BTO options of Combo or SuperDrive (no CD-only or CD-RW only)
--Price "increase" (depending on POV)
--no more internal Zip option

--the Combo Drive iMac dropped $100 to it's original price ($1,499) but no longer includes the pro speakers.

The Ugly:
Yup, the case is ugly as sin, but oh well :)

I'm sure there's a lot more but that's what comes to mind so far.

--BlueDjinn

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08/13, 09:52am | report spam | close Reply |
Good, Bad & Ugly:

The Good:
--DDR across the board
--Dualies across the board
--167 bus in top 2 models
--Level 3 Cache across the board
--25% Speed bump is decent (or would be if the P4 wasn't at 2.53)
--Analog audio-in port is back, thank G-d!
--Front headphone jack
--ATA/100 drives, yay!
--HD size bump to 60/80/120 standard
--Up to 4 internal drives, either ATA/100,ATA/66 or SCSI
--Up to 2 GB RAM
--2nd Optical Bay
--Base model bumped from CD-RW to Combo Drive standard
--ADC, VGA *and* DVI ports (DVI to VGA adapter included!)
--Radeon 9000 standard on top two models
--Still includes OS 9.2 as full dual-boot (whew!)

--eMac now available w/SuperDrive & 800 MHz G4, $1,499
--eMac Combo Drive dropped $100 to $1,099 (replaces CD-RW model)
--iMacs dropped back to original $1,299/$1,499 prices

The Bad:
--Not "true" DDR (RAM is, FSB isn't) (Xserve version)
--No FireWire 2, no additional FW ports
--No USB 2, no additional USB ports
--2nd Optical Bay only has BTO options of Combo or SuperDrive (no CD-only or CD-RW only)
--Price "increase" (depending on POV)
--no more internal Zip option

--the Combo Drive iMac dropped $100 to it's original price ($1,499) but no longer includes the pro speakers.

The Ugly:
Yup, the case is ugly as sin, but oh well :)

I'm sure there's a lot more but that's what comes to mind so far.

--BlueDjinn

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08/13, 09:54am | report spam | close Reply |
Butt Ugly Design

Zowie,Whose drunk at the design wheel? These case designs look like "c***". I mean, I'm blown away that Apple would release something like this.

The case design is how many years old? The coolest thing that Apple has released to date is the xserve in clean functional design. BTW.. what is those butt ugly round holes in the front? *belch*

It also looks like Apple redesigned the speaker area.. made it much less deep (probably so the guy making speaker grill covers, which I adore, has to redesign them to work on this warmed over case design)

Disappointment is the better word for me. Extremely Disappointed Steve. The cases looked better before this model and it would have keep the older powermacs a higher value. Take a lesson from The Volkswagen Beetle on that one... although he seems to be reading from the Detroit manuals of the 1970's (Redesign cars every year with less power).

Just my two cents
*The graphic designer*

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08/13, 09:58am | report spam | close Reply |
Man..

While I'm not a fan of mac evangelism, this sudden wave of people complaining about everything on earth is just as bad.

If you are so sick of Steve, leave! He won't miss you, Bill Gates won't welcome you. No one cares about your computer preference.

In my opinion (and I am aware I may be alone on this) the difference between 1.5 ghz and 2.5 is negligable.

Either way I don't find myself waiting.

Have you used even the old non ddr dual ghz? I think with the new architecture changes we'll be in for a better and faster experience.

But in all honesty I don't buy my macs for speed anyways, I buy them because they are good computers.

And the new case design is nice, I like it. I still stand by the graphite g4s, the quicksilvers never did much for me.

[fin]

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08/13, 10:04am | report spam | close Reply |
Man..

While I'm not a fan of mac evangelism, this sudden wave of people complaining about everything on earth is just as bad.

If you are so sick of Steve, leave! He won't miss you, Bill Gates won't welcome you. No one cares about your computer preference.

In my opinion (and I am aware I may be alone on this) the difference between 1.5 ghz and 2.5 is negligable.

Either way I don't find myself waiting.

Have you used even the old non ddr dual ghz? I think with the new architecture changes we'll be in for a better and faster experience.

But in all honesty I don't buy my macs for speed anyways, I buy them because they are good computers.

And the new case design is nice, I like it. I still stand by the graphite g4s, the quicksilvers never did much for me.

[fin]

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08/13, 10:13am | report spam | close Reply |
But can it boot OS 9?

There are lots of publishing shops (Apple's target market with these machines) with workflows based around QuarkXPress and OS 9, who can't really move to OS X until the tools are there. Are these new machines OS 9-bootable?

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08/13, 10:23am | report spam | close Reply |
Man..

While I'm not a fan of mac evangelism, this sudden wave of people complaining about everything on earth is just as bad.

If you are so sick of Steve, leave! He won't miss you, Bill Gates won't welcome you. No one cares about your computer preference.

In my opinion (and I am aware I may be alone on this) the difference between 1.5 ghz and 2.5 is negligable.

Either way I don't find myself waiting.

Have you used even the old non ddr dual ghz? I think with the new architecture changes we'll be in for a better and faster experience.

But in all honesty I don't buy my macs for speed anyways, I buy them because they are good computers.

And the new case design is nice, I like it. I still stand by the graphite g4s, the quicksilvers never did much for me.

[fin]

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08/13, 10:24am | report spam | close Reply |
Pretty sad.

Apple needs to switch to IBM processors pretty damn soon. All this waiting for 1.25 GHz? Give me a break.

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08/13, 10:25am | report spam | close Reply |
Biggest Speed Increase?

1ghz to 1.25 ghz, isn't this the biggest we have seen?
Awesome!!!! And on top of that DDR Ram over SD Ram, these are going to rock!!
Eddie

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08/13, 10:27am | report spam | close Reply |
Fanatical ...

I think Apple should stop trying to please those in these forums. It simply cannot be done.

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08/13, 10:31am | report spam | close Reply |
'Dem holes

on 'de bottom are ram air intake holes. You see, 'dis new cyclops beast is so dangid fast with 'dem dual processor thingies and Ding Dangity RAM that it make this thing take off so fast that it need some air flow at 'der front to cool off 'ze inside. Not even 4 heat bricks, 2 opticals frizzbee burners, and a 7 pound kitchen sink can hold this fugly beast down (why you think the front of this look like it hit a brick wall).

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08/13, 10:43am | report spam | close Reply |
'Dem holes

on 'de bottom are ram air intake holes. You see, 'dis new cyclops beast is so dangid fast with 'dem dual processor thingies and Ding Dangity RAM that it make this thing take off so fast that it need some air flow at 'der front to cool off 'ze inside. Not even 4 heat bricks, 2 opticals frizzbee burners, and a 7 pound kitchen sink can hold this fugly beast down (why you think the front of this look like it hit a brick wall).

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08/13, 11:31am | report spam | close Reply |
Nice

These don't blow me away, but they are very nice Powermacs and certainly "keep up" with Wintels well enough, while being faster at SOME things.

To those who think this case is ugly, go fsck yourselves, it's your opinion. In my not so humble opinion, these are some of the most beautiful PMs ever. They take care of the one problem with previous iterations of this case design: lack of drive bays. As for the rest of the case, what the h*** would Apple change to make it better? It's already the BEST tower design available...I'd be worried that if Apple began mucking around with it they might make it worse. A functional design for their "Pro" line is a good move and all you vain idiots can suck mine if you don't think so.

Obviously Apple is doing everything in their power to maximize system performance, but they are saddled with the G4. A 167 MHz system bus is pathetic. But within a year or so, Moto's crapware will be history and the G5 will be supplied by IBM, and it will demolish any and every thing in it's path, x86 included. Apple can hold out until then with these Powermacs, probably bumping them to 1.6 GHz or so by next MWNY.

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08/13, 12:20pm | report spam | close Reply |
What processor ?

What processor is the new G4. because according to mosr.com:

--------quote
...not the PPC 7470s hoped for by the grapevine. This is a dangerous flaw, because the PPC 7455 cannot take advantage of DDR memory -- as on the Xserve, the new PowerMacs will be limited to 1.3GB/s actual processor bandwidth despite 2.7GB/s memory bandwidth on the two high-end models.
----endquote

tr909

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08/13, 12:26pm | report spam | close Reply |
Nice

Nice workhorse, I like the design as well, I'm buying.

jakowalsky

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08/13, 12:28pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
slow superdrive

i thought there was going to be a faster superdrives in this update. Might get a 933.

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08/13, 12:29pm | report spam | close Reply |
Why the complaints

I didn't think so many mac enthusiasts could be so ignorant. Every one knows the MHz myth, so stop complaining about the fact the we only recieved 500 MHz, it still kicks the a** of any pentium. So what? The design is a little flunky, but I'd take one any day. If your waiting for more MHz, wait for the G5. This is only a small speed bump to hold us over. Some of you guys are starting to sound like windows geeks.

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08/13, 12:29pm | report spam | close Reply |
Yawn.

How much longer must we suffer the warmed over scraps from yesterday's technological meals? That case design is pants - 4 years old now, DDR Ram - Well, it's been ages coming, Graphics cards which can be got elsewhere and not much else. It's all hot air. Then we are fed the usual c*** about "Twice as fast as a P4 running 2.5 GHz" running some Photoshop test that is anything but "Real World". For those of you who are admirably trying to be optimistic about these new macs, sorry - It's wasted. Make no mistake - With this sort of HW we are the laughing stock of the industry and until we get some serious iron under the (redesigned) hood of the Professional macs we will remain the laughing stock.

"You think a dual 1ghz is slow?

Go buy the fastest PC that you can find, Load XP and then start a race between the two of them.

Yeah, the XP is fast, but the Mac with X,
--- oh momma. "

Sorry - That's stupid. Try an XP Athlon machine at 2GHz+ - It bloes any mac right out of the water. I tried it and I hated admitting it but it was just so damn fast and cost less than half the Powermac's price.

I want a new PM desperately but I'm not paying money for such a small speed increase. Apple have no excuse - Don't make one for them.

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08/13, 12:37pm | report spam | close Reply |
For uneducated people...

From Kingston Guide...

DOUBLE DATA RATE SYNCHRONOUS DRAM (DDR SDRAM)

DDR SDRAM, is a next-generation SDRAM technology. It allows the memory chip to perform transactions on both the rising and falling edges of the clock cycle. For example, with DDR SDRAM, a 100 or 133MHz memory bus clock rate yields an effective data rate of 200MHz or 266MHz.

DDR SDRAM clock rates are theoretical performance. The FSB of 133 or 167 perfectly compliments the RAM. It just performs transactions on both the rising and falling cycles allowing for double the bandwith and speed theoretically.

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08/13, 12:42pm | report spam | close Reply |
geees!

Did you really expect that much more? Moto just doesn't give a sh$t about a faster G4 and never will. At the present itme it's all Apple has to work with. Maybe the current chip can't handle DDR without modification which Moto won't do.

My guess is that the next gen Power Macs will use the new IBM chip and will be incredibly fast.

True benchmarking will be the key and I think we'll be surprised at how much faster these machines will be. Sure, they probably won't stomp the P4 but maybe they'll hold their own until the new chip arrives.

As for the case design....I don't think it's really that different from the old one in looks and is probably better looking live than in the pictures.
I like the fact you can now have 2 cd drives or what ever and upt to 4 HDs.

Well...I'm off to the Apple store to see if they have one of these to play with!

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08/13, 12:43pm | report spam | close Reply |
you people...

... are hysterical. go over to apple.slashdot.org for more thoughtful, less end-of-the-world opinions. the rest of you pyschos can stay here and rant. these are solid machines, running the best desktop os. how many times in the life of the mac has motorola's chips been faster than intel's? it's not all about speed, it's about a better product.

chas_m
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08/13, 12:45pm | report spam | close Reply |
Pathetic whiners

When did the MacNN forums become "losers only?"

Apple just DOUBLED the speed of their entire G4 line for an extra $100! They gave us the DDR we've been screaming for! They added the second full drive bay we've been screaming for! You're getting Jag for free, just like we've been screaming for!

This is a TREMENDOUS step up in speed, but I suppose you losers will have to wait for the benchmarks (which will PROVE a HUGE Jaguar and other-stuff-based speedup -- something over 50% jump!) before you stop whining.

You silly hardware geeks REALLY need to buy an Athlon machine and LEAVE US ALONE. That way you can m********* over your high MHz and your fast system bus while we GET SOME WORK DONE.

Sheesh. You're pathetic!

Green_Speed
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08/13, 12:48pm | report spam | close Reply |
whine and b****

you people are full of it. For those of you who are complaining about the case design being old what would you do better? quite simply apple nailed the tower case design on the first try in 1997. The B&W G3 through the present design haven't been matched nor will they be. Why would apple leave this design? I hope that they never leave it!

Although the speed bump doesn't catch the clock speed of the P4 in one fell swoop, it is a decent increase. All machines are DP, they have DDR and a faster bus (except low end). The graphics chip options are great and the storage is good as well - although I would like to have more choices for the second optical drive bay like CD-RW, DVD or CD-Rom and zip250.

For all of you whiners shut the h*** up. This machine kicks a$$ and if I had the cash, I'd buy one!

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08/13, 12:49pm | report spam | close Reply |
Ok Jerks

IS THIS WHAT WE NEED TO BE DOING?????

WHY THE F$%& ARE SOME OF US BICKERING ABOUT THE SPEED BUMP AND CASE DESIGN. IF YOU ARE TRUE APPLE USERS AND ENJOY THEIR PRODUCTS YOU WOULDN'T BE BITCHING.

I PERSONALLY WAS A LITTLE SHOCKED BUT THE NEW CASE DESIGN SERVES A BETTER PURPOSE. THE FRONT PORT HOLES WILL ALLOW FOR BETTER AIR CIRCULATION AND THE ABILITY TO SUPPORT 480 GB OF STORAGE IS REVOLUTIONARY. WHAT OTHER DESKTOP SYSTEM (EXCLUDING THE GUYS THAT USE XSERVE AS A DESKTOP) CAN SUPPORT .48 TB OUT OF THE BOX WITH NO ADDED PCI CARDS. NONE

I AM ALL IN FAVOR OF TEH NEW MACHINES AND I AM GOING TO BE ORDERING A FEW FOR MY STAFF IN THE OFFICE AND FOR MY HOME OFFICE

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08/13, 12:50pm | report spam | close Reply |
Re: Yawn

Then we are fed the usual c*** about "Twice as fast as a P4 running 2.5 GHz" running some Photoshop test that is anything but "Real World".

Why don't you read this article from Gene Steinberg regarding the Photoshop tests. Fine if you want to ignore the stats and all, but says the tests aren't fake or made up concepts that the Mac happens to be better than.

http://www.macnightowl.com/bullish/2002/07/07-03.htm

Or, read the follow-up, where people claim that the tests were biased, and then he runs some other set where the mac was even faster than in Apple's test (despite the fact the tests came from someone proclaiming the Mac would choke on them).

http://www.macnightowl.com/bullish/2002/07/07-17.htm

Or, if you don't like that, then why not just read his remarks summing up both tests and reader reactions to them.

http://www.macnightowl.com/newsletters/2002/07/139.htm

Oh, but I should know better to try get someone to actually read an article on something that might kill their arguments. Better to just ignore them and spout your rhetoric.

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08/13, 12:53pm | report spam | close Reply |
to Good,Bad,Ugly...

For the person who posted the "Good, Bad & Ugly" rundown--that was a pretty nice summary.

Two other points:

(1) All-in-all, I'd say this just reaches barely reaches my "not too bad" expectations. I didn't expect too much more, but I would have liked to see "true" DDR. That would have made the announcement right at "just right" in my book (given the reality of the PPC situation).

(2) I'm starting to see the point about all the complainers! Just a thought--I really really didn't like the business move of one-price-fits-all, take-it-all-or-get-out .Mac strategy, and I think the last MacWorld put a LOT of people in a bad mood when it comes to Apple. Perhaps that's a reason for the overly negative comments on this announcement?

Face it--if you expected a great deal more, you weren't living in reality! In reality, PPCs speed increases are in a real slump, and Apple can't do a lot about it. Hopefully, future developments will work out nicely, but for now, this line-up was pretty close to what we could expect.

-Jay

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08/13, 12:53pm | report spam | close Reply |
BTW

DO YOU ALL REALIZE THAT THE PEOPLE THAT b**** ABOUT MHZ ARE CLOSET WINTEL SUCKERS AND THEY HAVE NO CLUE ABOUT WHAT REALLY MAKE A MAC DIFFERENT FROM THE REST

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08/13, 12:55pm | report spam | close Reply |
Re: Whine and b****

Well....you DON'T have the cash and WE DO. So you shut the h*** up, loser.

That means we get to spend on what we want. And if this isn't what we want, then we ask for what our money is worth buying. That's why we have the money because we know when what we're buying is old technology. You know, yesterday's news. But you wouldn't know that, would you?

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08/13, 12:58pm | report spam | close Reply |
awesome internal design

love the way that thing is set up. Wish I have physical access to one.

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08/13, 12:59pm | report spam | close Reply |
reason for whining

Yes the whining is annoying, and getting to be hysterical, but lets face it guys (and girls?) most of this is Apple's doing. The PR machine has somehow gone of the rails, they seem to revel in bad news and hide the good stuff.

You wonder why they didnt preannounce these computers at Macworld NY, and then bury the .mac fiasco on a quiet day like today - that would be the sensible thing to do (well the sensible thing to do would have been a fairer change over for itools, say free web-based mail for all - but still, common sense isn't all that common).

These computers are OK. If you ever bought a mac before then you should like these for exactly the same reasons. The gap between Intel and Mac is about the same as it ever was (though worryingly the pricing gap seems to be increasing again).

Now Apple can you please try and put a positive spin on your news. I for one want to keep on using macs, and am not too happy about you constantly shooting yourself in the foot.

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08/13, 01:03pm | report spam | close Reply |
ports...

originally when I saw the case design a few weeks ago on the forums I was hoping that at least 2 of the ports could be firewire and usb ports...

That IMHO would make this case the best.

I'll still prolly buy one..

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08/13, 01:04pm | report spam | close Reply |
speed

Let's see, according to Apple, the high end version of their new dual G4s reaches a performance of 18.3 Gigaflops, while the 500 Mhz single processor G4 can do 3.7 Gigaflops.

Exactly what part of those numbers do some people (closet PC s****) here find hard to understand about the speed of the new Macs?

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08/13, 01:09pm | report spam | close Reply |
re: btw

oh, please...enlighten us. do you know the difference? what makes a mac different from the rest?

1. are we paying for the oh so cool design of the case. is that why they can charge so high.
2. hey, what about because it's a dual cpu. or was that being offered because they can't catch up.
3. maybe it's DDR SDRAM. but PCs have those since ages.
4. perhaps firewire and usb2. what? no usb2? and what about firewire2 since apple invented it. maybe they're just holding back so they can s**** us once more in the next update.
5. or perhaps it's the stability of mac os x.2 where loyal mac users get to pay full price once more for 150+ updates. USD129 is cheaper than their competitor. but who would charge as high when they only have 5% of the market. thank god!
6. expandability? two drives with slow burning speed. that's all you can add. the rest will have to dangle outside.
7. bluetooth?

i don't mind apple charging a high price for technology that isn't available in PCs, yet. that is why we all invested in macs in the first place. they had cutting edge hardware and software fit for audio/video/graphics applications.

now they don't have the right to charge the price when all they do is play catch up.

we aren't abandoning macs. we're just waiting for apple to get their act together before we give them all our money once more. perhaps next year.

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08/13, 01:10pm | report spam | close Reply |
Yawn :(

Dual 1.25Ghz. Whoop-De-Doo.

DDR RAM. Finally. A year ago, that would have been exciting.

All for only $3300.

I love my Mac's, but jeez, do you have _any_ idea of the horsepower I could build into a PC for $3300 ?

And the GeForce 4 MX graphics is nothing to get excited about. That particular chipset is the laughingstock of the PC world. It's not even based on a true GF4 core!

Improvement for the Mac, sure. Impressive? Not at all.

Apple's iMac's and PowerBooks are good, competitive values. I don't understand their pricing structure of the desktops at all, though.

TL

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08/13, 01:13pm | report spam | close Reply |
re: Too Slow

"You think a dual 1ghz is slow?

Go buy the fastest PC that you can find, Load XP and then start a race between the two of them.

Yeah, the XP is fast, but the Mac with X,
--- oh momma."

Honestly, I can build a PC that eats it alive for 1/2 the price. Anyone can.

TL

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08/13, 01:15pm | report spam | close Reply |
afasf

asf

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08/13, 01:19pm | report spam | close Reply |
RE: SPEED

those are theoretical peaks.

* * * = 20 Billion single precision floating ops per second.

Then, since some confused soul at Apple thinks that "Giga" means 1024*1024*1024, they divide 20 billion by 1024*1024*1024 and get 18.63 - and therefore claim 18 Gflops.

You can do the math for any G4 using this formula - it doesn't matter what the memory speed is, what the cache size is, how many levels of cache you have. It also doesn't matter that the chip could only run at this rate for a few cycles at most before having to stop and wait for the AltiVec registers to refill from the L1 cache.

before you go posting, try to understand what you're talking about. because name calling just to defend your post is old school tactic for saying your stupid and you really don't know what you're talking about.

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08/13, 01:21pm | report spam | close Reply |
re:Man...

Macnn Reader,

"While I'm not a fan of mac evangelism, this sudden wave of people complaining about everything on earth is just as bad."

No, by golly it's HEALTHY for a change!

It's high time hard-core Apple Users started standing up for themselves, instead of just accepting what Stevie threw out at them and bowing to it in great wonder.

It's high time people started voicing their concerns about Motorola's dismal processor performance.

It's high time people started voicing their concerns about the Price.

It's high time people startd voicing their concerns about the half-assed DDR implementation.

And it's nice to see people complaining about how poorly Apple has treated their customers in regards to the MacOS 1.2, QuickTime 6 and .Mac pricing plans.

The Mac Product line might not be exciting, but I find this new desire of Mac Users to voice their opinions AGAINST Apple WHEN Apple screws up to be refreshing.

It's about time.

Steve's probably freaking right now, and working with Avie Tavanian to figure out how to tweak his RDF to be more powerful :)

TL

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08/13, 01:24pm | report spam | close Reply |
Now Sampling...

I believe the 1.25 GHz G4 chips have already started sampling. If sufficient quantities aren't available by Q4, they will be reintroduced at 1.067 GHz. (Just kidding!)

Practically, this announcement means $500 off on a PM "dual-gigger". Happy days are here again.

Curmudgeon

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08/13, 01:28pm | report spam | close Reply |
Re: reasons

You wonder why they didnt preannounce these computers at Macworld NY, and then bury the .mac fiasco on a quiet day like today - that would be the sensible thing to do

And exactly how would that be better. First, you'd have the whinings after MWNY about the lame upgrades to the Mac. THEN you'd have the whining about how Apple always pre-announces their stuff well in advance and they won't be available for at least a month (what, you think they had these ready to go last month and just sat on them? oh, yes, I forgot, that's what the rumor sites must've said). Then, on a day you call "burying the news" (which most people here seem to have heard anyways), you'd want them to announce .Mac all by itself? You're the nutcake. The point of doing .Mac at MWNY was the hope it would be softened by the other hardware/software announcements. Announcing it by itself would have brought more whining and outrage then these macs have done.

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08/13, 01:32pm | report spam | close Reply |
Whiners' tantrums.

People here saying they have the money and are angry. Think about what you are complaining about.

- The 1.25 GHz CPU is the best processor Apple can get right now. You are all acting as if Apple has 2 GHz G4s but won't release them. You know this isn't true. Apple is not holding anything back.
- You are complaining about the front side bus speed. The G4 doesn't support a faster FSB - it sucks, but that's the way it is. Again, you are acting as if Apple could do it but won't. Again, you know this isn't true.
- You are complaining about price. Apple isn't Microsoft or Intel. They don't sell enough to be able to price their machines as cheaply as PCs. They have to pay for their hardware and software engineers. If they did try to compete on price, they'd go out of business in a few quarters. Is that what you want?
- You are complaining about Firewire 2 and USB 2. Is Firewire 2 even ready? Are there devices that use Firewire 2 yet? As for USB 2 you may have a point, but then again, you could buy a firewire device instead as it would be faster than USB 2 anyway.

So what really is making you so upset? This is the best Apple could do at this time. If Apple used Intel/AMD, software developers would abandon MacOS X since everyone could run Windows at full speed. You don't want that.
So if you want to buy a new Mac, do it. If you want something better, you will just have to wait. Throwing a tantrum on this forum isn't going to help. Complaining that Apple hasn't implemented something that is currently impossible isn't going to get you anywhere.

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08/13, 01:41pm | report spam | close Reply |
Speed is measured

...in calculations not in cycles. The clock speed is simply the number of cycles of the circuit, and does not measure how much can be accomplished in that cycle. Smaller tires on a car rotate faster, but does it make you faster than a car with larger wheels? Not always.

This is why Apple is focusing on Gigaflops and not Gigahertz. 18,300,000,000 calcualations per second is what the new G4 system is capable of. That is 18.3 Gigaflops.

From Intel's web site:

Processor core speed:
Processor core speed is a measurement, in millions, of the number of times the processor cycles in one second. Generally, processors with higher MHz or GHz enhance your ability to run creative, entertainment, communication, and productivity applications.

That is comparing identical processors.

Intel is expecting to reach 15 Gigaflops with the 3 GHz Pentium.

Hopefully, Apple can do something with this RAW processing Power

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08/13, 01:52pm | report spam | close Reply |
Size doesn't matter

What a bunch of cry babies! Get a life. There's a trend in society today where many people are never satisfied with anything. Case in point - Star Wars. No matter what Lucas does it won't be enough for some people and they will trash him endlessly. Ask any woman... it's not how big it is but what you can do with it that matters! Macs are like that. No they don't have the numbers to match processors with Winblows machines but look at all the cool stuff you can do with your Macs. Plus Macs are so cool. Just look at the care and design that goes into even the accessories. I just unpacked my new iBook today and it's so cool I wouldn't trade it for the most expensive Wintel machine on the planet. Even the box it came in is cool and well designed. You don't like the G4 case? Try popping some memory or a hard drive in your Dell or Gateway. It took me 2 minutes to upgrade the memory in my iBook and a few minutes longer to put extra memory in my G4 DP 800 and slap in a new hard drive. When I took my iBook out of the box today I connected a net cable turned it on and I was on the Internet in 15 seconds! So stop crying and do something productive with your Macs and forget about all this p**** envy!

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08/13, 01:53pm | report spam | close Reply |
Case design

Ok, I'll give people the technical stats on these machines aren't what they should be, but there is one point that I find annoying.
The case design.
I know Apple hasn't substantially changed the case for a while on the G4s. Is that really so bad?
They have made it easy to put memory, hard drives, and cards into the machines. I would really hate to give that up for a "new look" case.
I spent too much time slicing my fingers inside 6100s and 8500s not to admire the case design Apple has today.

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08/13, 02:16pm | report spam | close Reply |
Further and furtherbehind

A year ago we had 867 and Intel had 1.8 ghz. By the time the new 1.25 come out, we will have gained less than 400 Mhz while Intel will have gained 1000Mhz and a much faster FSB! As bad as things were 3 years ago, when we were 200 Mhz behind, they pace at which Apple is falling behind is only accelerating! Yikes. Apple is screwed.

As we saw in recent benchmarks, the 2.53 Ghz P4 single was about 50-90% faster in most DP and G4 optimized programs than the DP Ghz. The new 1.25 is only 20% faster and it costs more. By the time the 1.25 ships, the P4 will be another 20% faster too, and likely cheaper so Apple will have gained nothing with this new tower with it's phony, marketing only, DDR.

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08/13, 02:22pm | report spam | close Reply |
Look on the bright side..

Look on the bright side guys... these machines are 7455 based systems (even the 1.25), not the 7470 we were all hoping for.

What does this possibly mean? That Apple is going to move to something much better in the near future and that these machines are simply hold-overs until the integration can be done with the new chips.

Power4 based 64bit CPU' at 2ghz+ and HyperTransport based motherboards at MacWorld SF/2003? Here's hoping .. for the sake of us all. :)

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08/13, 02:23pm | report spam | close Reply |
RE: speed is measured

flops aren't that great of a way to measure computer (across architectures, anyway) speed either. Until Macs becomes too slow to perform current day activities or until Apple fails in their primary goal (not making $, but superior computing experience), there will always be the Mac faithful that will keep Apple alive. Most of us use Macs for the user experience. I think (hope) even if Apple loses the graphics pros, there will still be enough business to keep Apple alive.

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08/13, 02:24pm | report spam | close Reply |
Getting there..

Bravo Mr Jobs...now:

-Dual >2.0Ghz needed.
-Make pricing reasonable ($1K, $2K, & $3K) for the system. Make options your "markup".
-Forget the rebates on software and displays. Rebates are deceptive.

I like the case. It has an evil look to it (One eye, and teeth).

:P

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08/13, 02:26pm | report spam | close Reply |
Back off, fascists

I love Apple and have owned and enthused about Apples since the daze of the //e. But the mindless fascism by people who ignore the facts and shut down criticism is pathetic...

Fascists and apologists read the facts:

1. Macs are much too slow and equipped with too many outdated technologies to justify the price premium over the PC world.

2. Apple takes most of it's remaining markets and customers for granted.

3. The PPC problem is not a new one. As soon as Apple realised that PPC development was indifferent to them, action should have been taken.

4. Even this fake DDR is years late, and if Apple cannot get better PPCs the least we could expect is pricing to reflect it, or THE BEST in all other components (graphics cards, disk controllers, etc) to justify the price.

Even MOSR talks of the "underwhelming" nature of the release...

It doesn't matter how many gigaflops you have if the FSB is sluggish and the memory is hobbled. These machines are a pathetic upgrade...Since the 7455 cannot support DDR, we should have gotten this "fake" DDR as soon as the PC world did just to TRY to keep up. Why not? Because Apple takes us for granted. The same reason that early X adopters are being shafted.

Every month, the price/performance gap gets greater and greater. These pathetic overclocked 7455s are probably the "best" PPCs Apple can get, but why? Why did Apple not go to IBM, or take advantage of their stake in the PPC to modify or design PPCs in house for the needs of the Mac, rather than network hardware vendors?

The credibility of the platform is at stake, and I hope these warmed-over Xserves are only around for a couple of months before we at least get the 7470 ,a lineup that STARTS with dual 1.25gh and ends with 14ghz Quad processors and true DDR....

..While we wait for IBM...but the dependency on AltiVec does and will complicate things. IBM could have a 2ghz PPC today and without AltiVec, we couldn't have it. AltiVec dependency is half the problem....

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08/13, 02:29pm | report spam | close Reply |
my thoughts

I'm really impressed at how much mac users whine about these products.... as if posting that the new G4 is ugly and you're going to trash your Mac and switch to Dell on a mac news site is going to make Apple change their mind and whip out a dual 4 ghz G5 next week.

1st of all, I like the new G4's enclosure and case design. Yes, the El Capitan design has been around for close to 4 years, but hey... none of you can argue that its not functional. With this new iteration, its clear that Apple did alot of work on the internal of the El Capitan too. It'll run cooler than the Quicksilvers and still be able to cram in more drives than the Quicksilver; An inherent problem with the Quicksilver design was that its intake would draw in hot air from the exhaust in the back. Now, it looks like they worked out airflow issues in the new G4.

c'mon... Apple struck gold with the El Capitan back in 1999 (or was it 1998?) when they introduced the G3, so they're going to juice the design for all its worth... sort of like the Titanium design for the Powerbook. You don't see people b*tching because the Powerbook's design has been the same in the past 3 iterations.

2ndly.... I can't stand people complaining about the lack of 1394b or Airport2 on these machines. NEITHER IEEE 1394b or 802.11g are ready for production.... 1394b's spec is done, but no one's built a controller for that sucker yet. (i think that that is Texas Instrument's fault more than anyone elses, but that's another discussion).... and 802.11g's isn't even near approval yet! i challenge anyone to find anything offered by a 3rd party in terms of 802.11g hardware... you'll find alot of 802.11a hardware, but that's not backward compatible.

and USB 2? hah... head over to Barefeats.com and see how USB 2 performance lags behind Firewire.

3rdly... processor speed.... nothing will satisfy you people. For all of you people who say that 1.25 ghz is TOO SLOW... HOW WOULD YOU KNOW?

What would have made you happy? nothing would have. You all set yourselves up to be disappointed in thinking that in one swoop, Apple would make the (PERCEIVED) speed gap disappear overnight. It won't happen, but then again, what on earth can you people say about the performance of this G4? from the number 1.25?

I'm so sick of people looking at numbers rather than real world performance. yes, i know that Intel's chips are faster than the G4 in real world, but even the fact that processors that are 1/2 the clock speed can even come close says ALOT about the G4 and how performance isn't all about clock speed.

4th.... Apple will not go belly up because you say so. Apple will not go belly up because they released new machines that didn't blow you away.

i'm sick of people who see Apple as doomed because of processor speed.

THERE IS NO LINEAR RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN PROCESSOR

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08/13, 02:39pm | report spam | close Reply |
cnt...

THERE IS NO LINEAR RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN PROCESSOR CLOCK SPEED AND MARKET SHARE.

Sily...

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08/13, 02:43pm | report spam | close Reply |
complain

direct to apple.

While there is a lot of whining for the sake of whining here, the mac faithful MUST voice there opions to Apple. We all sat around for TWO YEARS while we were fed the same 500mhz machines. Apple may have something up their sleeves for next year, but thats what we thought last year and so we kept quiet about it.

Yes the new case is Frankensteins Monster, but if it was really worth getting I'd get the thing and shove it under my desk, who cares. The DP is nice but really, we're only getting those because the G4 is so desperately behind the wintel world that Apple thought they should do something.

1699 for the low end, WITHOUT A SUPERDRIVE? when you can get it in an emac for 1499, lets not even talk about a PC with superdrive.. Apple CAN afford to include the Superdrive accross the board of Powermacs at these high prices, and make a nice profit, they arent because they want you to drop another 800 bucks for a SD model.

If we dont stand up and say we're not taking this c*** anymore, then a year down the line we'll be getting 1.4ghz machines with tape drives starting at 3499.

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08/13, 02:49pm | report spam | close Reply |
You can't please everyon

No matter how fast Macs get, there will always be some yahoo who says that's not fast enough for them.

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08/13, 03:00pm | report spam | close Reply |
Re: You can't please...

That's a true enough statement in general. However, if Apple had released a 1.6 as the top end with TRUE DDR memory, I'm very doubtful you'd see "some yahoo" who'll say that's not fast enough.

And to ignorant people these new specs are fantastic.

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08/13, 03:05pm | report spam | close Reply |
L3 Cache

All you whinos who keep complaining about the processor speed...have you noticed that the 1.25 GHz models come with a 2 MB L3 Cache, per processor???

I just tried to spec out a top-of-the-line Dell with Dual 2.4 GHz processors, and the best it had available was a 512K cache per processor, with no L3 cache.

As a scientific programmer, I can tell you that a larger processor cache makes a _big_ difference in performance.

Poorly written or poorly optimized software has been a big reason why Macs "feel" slow compared to a top-of-the-line PC. Jaguar solves a lot of these problems, adding multithreading all over the place. This is also critical because multithreading allows software to take full advantage of the dual processors.

Go to an Apple store and try out the new dual-1GHz Power Macs running Jaguar next week. I dare you to find a single thing that they can't do fast enough for you.

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08/13, 03:13pm | report spam | close Reply |
Pentium 4 marketing

Has everyone FORGOTTEN that the Pentium 4 performs incredibly poorly relative to its clock speed? The G4 may not be in the lead in speed, but it's not nearly as far behind as people seem to think it is, and in dual-processor configurations it really does smoke.

I have an Athlon 1.2 GHz that runs CIRCLES around a Pentium 4 at 1.5 GHz. Only the 1.8 GHz model comes close. Therefore a Pentium 4 at 3.0 GHz will only be as fast as a Pentium 3 would have been at 2.0 GHz. Since the Pentium 4 at 3.0 GHz isn't even out yet, that's not so bad.

Do you really want Motorola to increase the heck out of their pipeline and create a 3.2 GHz G5 that performs only as well as a 933 MHz G4? Just so you can use your computer's MHz speed to cover up for your inferiority complex? How about they just do what they do best: make a good processor, that works really well in dual-processor configurations, that runs cooler and requiring less power than the Pentium 4.

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08/13, 03:17pm | report spam | close Reply |
slow down ........

The price structure is all wrong. Apple should be charging more for these speed bumps. The better educated and more loyal Mac customers can easily afford to pay more for the privilege of using such a sophisticated Box. The DDR advances alone justify the price increases. We can now proudly hold up our heads and say "yeah we have that to"

The new 1.25GHz chips are upclocked PowerPC 7455 processors thus the new PowerMacs will be limited to 1.3GB/s actual processor bandwidth despite 2.7GB/s memory bandwidth on the two high-end models. This is not a big deal; you should go out and by a dualie as soon as possible. It will look cooler than any Intel product. It is also the next logical speed bump for the pro line. Motorola is a great company and needs a little more time to get new, faster chips out the door (maybe another 7-8 months).

I am perplexed that 10.2 is included with the new computers. This means that buyers will not have to buy an upgrade. This puts a dent in the software income stream. Hopefully, the revenue from the .Mac subscriptions will be higher than anticipated. Apple has to figure out how to make some money out of Software because their hardware sales are not proving enough cash flow for the company.

A long term non whining Mac Head and a proud stock holder since 1997

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08/13, 03:17pm | report spam | close Reply |
Price drop

It seems the dual 1 gig model is the best deal if you compare it to what was available yesterday. Not only is there a huge price drop, you also get a faster system bus, much better graphics card, DDR RAM, ATA 100, etc, etc.

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08/13, 03:19pm | report spam | close Reply |
haha

Tell SH in Iraq... that size doesnt matter when the bombing starts.

*whine, whine*

Amazing how when people offer there opinion its considered a whine.

Sorry folks but with the recent .mac joke, no superdrive in new lowend PM, and nothing breaking the 2 ghz TODAY, not tomorrow... the mac community HAS something to be upset about.

I AM Apples purchasing base. I've purchased 3 ibooks(500,14"/600&14"700mhz), New PM with 22" Cinema THIS YEAR and absolutely love them.. but can still offer a constructive critique while never leaving the platform.

I bet I have spent over 30 grand with Apple over the years. So I CAN make a negative comment about the current offerings. (Oh yea, I bought my young son an imac also........

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08/13, 03:27pm | report spam | close Reply |
Disapointed?

HELLO!!!!

1.0 to 1.25.. that's a 25% percent jump in speed. Previously, moving from 600 to 733 was big. That's not a big jump. Be happy! The next round will probably be 1.5, or even 1.7. Things are looking up!

-Stryfe

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08/13, 03:34pm | report spam | close Reply |
Going Back to Apple

I've been stuck with a Dell Laptop for the last 3 years, hating every minute of it. I've continually harrassed my PC using friends about how much better Macs are. Now its time for me to live up to my speech, but I am underwhealmed by Apple's offerings and particularly by its price.

$1,699 Dual Processor 867Mhz G4
$200 Super Drive Upgrade
$100 ATi Radeon 9000 Upgrade
$800 17" Cinema Display
$500 MS Office (I know - but I will need it for no-
hassle compatibility with my firm's doc system..)

= $3,300 (And not even with Apple Care)

OR

$1999 iMac G4 800 with 17" LCD
$500 MS Office

= $2,499

Seriously, $3,300 for a PowerMac that has the features such as the Super Drive to do what Apple advertises a Mac to be capable of doing. I know I could skip the ATi Card and drop down to a 15" LCD, but I want more than a typical laptop sized screen for my desk top and the GeForce4 MX card is widely derided as a POS.

Looking at these prices, the only way any current PC owner would come over is if they have personally experienced OS X (which to me is the only reason to even consider buying a Mac - because it does rock) or they are simplistic enough to believe the 'switch' ads. Come on, this announcement bummed me out all by itself, without even looking at what you could get on the PC side.

Finally, anyone know how much the Dual 867 compares to a single 800 - I understand that for must consumer apps, having DP really doesn't do anything.

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08/13, 03:38pm | report spam | close Reply |
Nice try Appple

These machines suck. The dual 1.25 processors are adequate, and the dual 867 for $1700 is awsome, but the old problem of lack of bandwidth has continued. The processors only support 1.6GB/s which is pathetic: the DDR ram support 3.2Gb/s. And a 167Mhz FSB is just sad. Honestly if I was looking for a computer to do After Effects of Photoshop work for my job I would get a Dell Precision workstation. I love OS X, and I love my PBTi, but these new machines just can not compete with the PCs they are targeted at. On the plus side the two 5.25" bays, the 2GB of RAM and the 4HDD support is good.

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08/13, 03:41pm | report spam | close Reply |
Holy Cow

You guys really like to complain. I'll admit Apple could have done better, but at least they released something. These new machines will be great for Graphic Artists. But in case your asking will I buy one. No, I'm going to wait a little longer. I really want USB 2 and Firewire 2 built on the Motherboard. I also want the 7470 processor not the 7455 on the new line-up. So thanks Apple for trying, but I'll wait till next time.

Aaron W.

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08/13, 03:55pm | report spam | close Reply |
Back To Apple

No Flames Please - I just went to the Dell site to make a quick comparison - check this out:
2.0Ghz P4 w/ 512K Full Speed L2 Cache
256MB DDR (PC2100 - Like the Dual 867 G4)
128MB GeForce4 Ti/460
80.0GB 7,200rpm Hard Drive
17" DVI Digital LCD
Logitech Wireless Speakers & Optical Mouse
HK 3-Piece Speakers
Firewire Card with Movie Software
Upgraded Photo Software
MS Office

= $2,600.

$700 less than my hypothetical Dual 867 above.

If only OS X would run on an Athalon set-up or if only Apple could competitively price a G4 & 17" Set-up.

Unfortunately that is not the case, and I find myself unable to make my purchase, and intensely jealous every time I visit my parents and their G4 867.

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08/13, 03:57pm | report spam | close Reply |
case design

People are saying that the new case is ugly... and others are defending it by saying that apple shouldn't change the case design because they reached perfection with the original design of 1999...

I agree 100% too that the case design was perfection for 1999, but as the years have gone by, updates needed to be made. And as each case revision came by from apple the case got better and better. I wasn't disappointed that they didn't revamp the entire case, but along with some out there, I was disappointed with the aesthic design of the front panel. The quicksilver looked the best with the front panel feeling smooth and seamless. This new case harks back on the two-toned front paneled days of the BW g3 and early g4 cases. From the limited pictures that I can see, and especially the shot with the two open optical drive bays on apple's site... it seems that the middle panel is a shiny chrome type finish.

http://www.apple.com/powermac/superdrive.html

Now everyone is different when they define something looking cool or ugly, and I think the reason why this case may seem so ugly to some is that it really is a frankenstein case. Because the side and handles are exactly the same as quicksilver (color and finish), and utilizes silimiar aspects like the circular speaker hole and same front panel color... that when they get to the new additions they seem really out of place. we are used to seeing this case with the drive bays on top, and the speaker grill on the bottom. The sides and front don't match... you have really elegant side panels designed for the quicksilver, combined with this new more industrial face. To have us really accept the new front, apple should have put more effort on the look of the sides and handles. The old ridged handle design of the first g4 would have been better...maybe not transparent, but chrome color to match the front panel... and a new color or texture for the side panels.

You don't have to completely make a new case... but atleast try to make the cosmetic changes to balance out the new front panel.

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08/13, 03:58pm | report spam | close Reply |
Dual procs, yes!

Yo, the the next opinion is as valid as the next guys, but an uninformed one at that blah! Anyone who says dual processors isn't that big of a deal is out of their mind! I am a *nix junkie and developer so i know a thing or two about the internal workings of a machine from the software point of view, and with a solid unix base and optimized kernel a dual processor machine runs circles around a SP machine any day. And of course the adaptation of DDR although not fully and not early is a HUGE boost. I dare you to go to the apple store, and try
one of these new machines out, maybe compile an app from source and see what your up against, one of the best consumer machines on the market, granted we'ed all like to brag to everyone about more mhz in a ppc but thats not happening. If you've ever used a dual proc machine it has more brute force behind it and makes for a great development box. Ive used MP intel boxes and even MP athlon boxs and i was impressed (mostly with the athlon boxes) at how zippier cpu intensive actions were. Trust me, from a person who know what their talking about, MP boxes take the cake, by far, so PLEASE everyone stop the complaining, opinions are fine but b**** moan whine, APPLE owes you nothing, i repeat NOTHING. So im going to go sign up for my .Mac account now because its a good deal, and buy jaguar because of all the wonderful improvments!

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08/13, 04:00pm | report spam | close Reply |
For a few Mhz

All those stories for only a few Mhz. Don't you notice that the Pentium is a dead product? Intel can't increase the clock speed forever. They are completly stuck with that architecture while everybody else is developping their own. Even nVidia is making an alliance with AMD to develop their own processors: in their mind GPU will replace the CPU which will become only an accessory.

That move to the GPU has started with the PS2 where the Emotion Engine is in fact the GPU and the CPU. The orginal R4000-based CPU is still there but acts as a IO controller and an emulator for PS1 games.

Apple is moving in the same direction with the introduction of Quartz-Extreme. In fact with the new dual PowerMacs, you don't get two but three processors as the GPU will compute all the on-screen rendering.

During that time, Wintel boxes are closed in that old master/slave architecture that only Mhz can make them run faster. The only moment that the GPU is exploited at its full is with games, ironically, that's the moment when Windows is bypassed to take full access of the hardware.

Ghz, Mhz, at the end, the result is always the same, the processor stays idle most of the time because the user is a major bottleneck. The mouse moves always at the same speed, whatever you have a 3Ghz or a 8Mhz computer. Hop hop move faster, you're wasting computing power.

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08/13, 04:06pm | report spam | close Reply |
Dual procs, yes!

To Dual procs, yes!

I have some swamp land in Florida I can sell to you for real cheap ........

"im going to go sign up for my .Mac account now because its a good deal, and buy jaguar because of all the wonderful improvments!"

Dude, get a clue ........

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08/13, 04:10pm | report spam | close Reply |
I am happy...

that ATI is back in the high end machines...I have always thought that ati has had greater strength in the apple market than nVIDIA...

Cheers apple

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08/13, 04:17pm | report spam | close Reply |
Fascists?

Says an earlier post:

"I love Apple and have owned and enthused about Apples since the daze of the //e. But the mindless fascism by people who ignore the facts and shut down criticism is pathetic...

Fascists and apologists read the facts:"

Um, don't you think you're getting a little carried away with the "fascists" thing? That's kind of a major political movement of the 20th century, you know? That kind of extreme pejorative probably doesn't advance your point very much (whatever it was).

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08/13, 04:34pm | report spam | close Reply |
Just a Comparison

I was in a Steel Drum Band for 3 years. We ordered our drums from a company in Akron, Oh. This company is considered to have the best Steel Drums in the world. We payed around $4000 for a single steel drum and we had to wait 2.5 years for it to arrive. Now we could have payed some bum down in trinidad to make us a drum for $100 and get it in an hour, but it would sound like it and wouldn't last more than a month.

The point I'm trying to make is, as Mac users, we understand that we have to pay more for our machines that do the same thing because we demand the best. We want the best machines that are going to last us the longest.

Now, I do believe (like some readers on the forum) that constructive critisism is OK, but I don't believe that you need to yell, scream, swear, and call each other names. If your going to critisize, please don't prove your intelligence level by screaming your head off. Be patient with Apple, they will deliver the fruit.

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08/13, 05:00pm | report spam | close Reply |
Impossible development

People why can't you understand that Apple just can't say "poof!" and make Firewire 2 and a G4 that supports a 333 FSB out of thin air.

These products don't yet exist. It's not because they don't want to build them, it's because they haven't figured out how yet.

If processing power is all you care about, go buy a Dual-proc Intel-based PC and be done with it.

Apple cannot develop new technology at the drop of a hat just because you whine like a five year old. If you have informed, constructive criticism, then offer it and quit crying.

And to the guy who said "Get a clue" to the person buying .Mac - maybe you should get a clue and a life. If it offers value to him and he feels it is worth the price, then who are you to say otherwise?

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08/13, 05:03pm | report spam | close Reply |
Who do you believe?

From another site:

The Power Mac system bus, which currently sits at up to 167MHz supporting over 1.3GBps data throughput, doesn't look as impressive as some PC machines currently available. Apple says there's more to it than the numbers; architecture plays a big roll in overall performance.

"What's different in our architecture from the PC architecture -- which has a higher marketing spec number for the bus -- is that they have every single thing on the system competing for that bus," said Greg Joswiak, senior director of hardware product marketing at Apple. "It has to move quickly because it has a lot of traffic and congestion on the bus. We have each part of the system with its own dedicated bus to the system controller. That means these things don't have a latency or congestion as they wait for other data to migrate through the bus."

Personally, given what I know about a PC's architecture, I'd much rather believe this guy than a lot of the people posting in this forum.

Tell you what: why don't all the whiners get in their cars, drive to the local Apple Store, and TRY ONE OF THE NEW MACHINES OUT FOR THEMSELVES. Then come back and complain.

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08/13, 05:10pm | report spam | close Reply |
Fascism Sucks

Now that THAT's out of the way, I'm TOTALLY buying one of these.

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08/13, 05:28pm | report spam | close Reply |
Eureka, the focus has...

Ghz, Mhz, at the end, the result is always the same, the processor stays idle most of the time because the user is a major bottleneck.

===

...always been the wrong thing. Instead of faster processors and FSB, Apple really needs to focus on speeding up the user. Sounds like a good opportunity for some 3rd party developer who can work on overclocking and quad pumping the user component.

P.S. Jif peanut butter rocks! and my vacuum cleaner needs a new filter

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08/13, 05:35pm | report spam | close Reply |
I agree!

Now, I do believe (like some readers on the forum) that constructive critisism is OK, but I don't believe that you need to yell, scream, swear, and call each other names. If your going to critisize, please don't prove your intelligence level by screaming your head off. Be patient with Apple, they will deliver the fruit.

===

It is better to yell, scream, swear, call yourself names. Screaming your head off on a forum is not healthy since you would only be yelling at your monitor and people will think you are crazy. Now madly pounding your keyboard and typing your fingers off, thats a different story but it would look pretty neat if you play heavy metal music. I also don't like oranges so I hope Apple delivers a fruit that I like and it is fresh and not rotten.

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08/13, 05:37pm | report spam | close Reply |
the specs look good

At first I was expecting more, then when I took a second look at the specs, they are really are quite nice. I do wish Apple would come up with a completey new case design, something to match the industrial flavor of the PB and the XServe but I understand that they'll get to when the get to it. Apple is moving in the right direction though, they really are. Hope they stick with the DP's across the board, that's sweet.

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08/13, 05:39pm | report spam | close Reply |
Apple online

Am I dreaming or is Apple doing what MS has often been suspected of doing: getting employees to post online support of the company?

Well, either that or there are a lot of 15 year olds that read MacNN.

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08/13, 06:03pm | report spam | close Reply |
Oh relax...

All the 15 year old posts are just ca$h.

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08/13, 06:04pm | report spam | close Reply |
Houston we have...

problems.

A dual p4 will heavily smoke my mac with xp. Imagine linux running on it. Xserve: who cares. And it is cheaper and this time they have many of the same applications. I've been using a mac for 15 years. I remember 68k days when we always had slower hardware. Lets do everything to avoid that situation.

Hello, we have a problem. Anybody there? When is Steve going to show me another bake off? We got really cocky about that a few years ago...

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08/13, 06:06pm | report spam | close Reply |
You don't have the balls

I mean this in a nice way ......

To all those people who have said this sucks I'm going to buy a Dell; I say do ahead buy a dark side computer already !

Part of the problem is that a lot of Mac users complain but do little else to improve their situation.
If you really care about the Mac platform then do as you say. You won't get faster processors and up to date technology until you stop buying Apple and they have to respond to consumer pressure,

Don't buy a new underpowered power Mac, I dare you ....

PS> to the impossible development guy who commented about that the guy who said "Get a clue" to the person buying .Mac has every right to express his opinion too

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08/13, 06:07pm | report spam | close Reply |
Impressive

Nice computer. Impressive design. Expandability. Reliable, s*** OS.
And a sound in port :)

The price is right, considering everything you get.

BTW, the long-term costs of owning a Mac are way lower than the "competition" (in my experience). With macs, less troubleshooting, less parts replacement, less MS headaches. And more time getting actual work done :)

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08/13, 06:09pm | report spam | close Reply |
bus

I long to have bus/processor speed ratios like the good old days. Y'know, 16MHz processor, 16MHz bus. Think of it, 1250MHz processor, 1250MHz bus. Used to be that 1:1 was it, then 1:2, 1:4 was a pretty good ratio, since it allowed for upgrading, but 1:8 is the limit of real usability (even though some g3s go 1:10 and g4s can do 1:9).

So Steve, c'mon and give us that 1.25 GHz bus we all want!

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08/13, 06:41pm | report spam | close Reply |
Europe

Pricing in Europe is still about 20% more expensive as US pricing.
It's just too much!

Still might move to PC...

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08/13, 06:57pm | report spam | close Reply |
Interesting point of view

http://www.macosrumors.com/

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08/13, 07:05pm | report spam | close Reply |
na

ok look, 1 point. jaguar looks sweet on one of those dual 1 ghz macs and with a superdrive ! you all need to chill. My girl got a dell 1.6 ghz p4 running xp home. LOL. it's slower than my sony vaio p3 1.3 ghz. explain that to me. she paid 1700 for it and it only has a cd-rom in it and 256 megs or ram !!! get in tune with reality people, apple is right up there as far as innovation and computing power goes. the software blows anything on the pc side away. itunes destroys musicmatch, nothing comps to fcp and idvd totally rules! please people, please, dont be silly. I can go on and on...

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08/13, 07:23pm | report spam | close Reply |
Some people...

Boo hoo, the bus is too slow. The bus in these Macs isn't like a PC, where all the components share the bus. In the Mac everybody has their own dedicated pipe, so the bus isn't bogged down like a PC's. Different architecture, different results. Wait for more benchmarks before you piss and moan.

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08/13, 07:27pm | report spam | close Reply |
Furthermore...

I bet the majority of the people complaining are the same people using Word and Email as their primary apps. Power Users understand the technology, because they are use to pushing the limits of their machines every single day. They work in video and 3D, etc.. The rest of you are just worry about the GHz and MHz because you want to brag or something. Just because your buddy has an Intel processor with some higher number doesn't mean it's faster or better or will make chicks dig him more. Get a grip!

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08/13, 07:43pm | report spam | close Reply |
"power users"

Speaking of 3D; check this out:
blanos.com/benchmark/

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08/13, 07:51pm | report spam | close Reply |
I'm happy

This is the first time in years that the low end machine has actually been a good deal. :) Usually they make the low end machine soo lousy that you have to stretch for the middle one. The high-end, as always, is way too expensive.

The G4 towers have never been too slow, just too expensive. At least now you can get the low-end and not be a suucker.

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08/13, 09:14pm | report spam | close Reply |
Cheese-Grater QuickSilver

> People why can't you understand that Apple just can't say
> "poof!" and make Firewire 2 and a G4 that supports a 333
> FSB out of thin air.
>
> These products don't yet exist. It's not because they don't
> want to build them, it's because they haven't figured out how yet.

Maybe not FW2, but certainly USB2 and the knowledge and
engineering to make a faster FSB is widely available on the PC
side of the fence.

The biggest culprit is the G4 - everything else on the bus has
more than enough bandwidth to handle the G4, especially the
DDR and video subsystems.

If there was ever a system where Apple owes the buyers free
CPU upgrades, these "cheese grater" QuickSilvers are deserving
of that.

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08/13, 09:35pm | report spam | close Reply |
I Just Ordered One!

Although this is not everything I wanted in the new Systems, It's close.

Going from 400MHZ G4 to Duel GHZ. , 32MB Radion to 128MB GForce , 100mhz Memory to DDR(almost) , 40 Gig ATA66 to 120Gig ATA100, DVD-Rom to DVD-r and Combo Drive, 10/100 Enet to 10/100/1000 Enet, .... on and on...

And free Jaguar!!!

Sometimes in the world of computers, you have to bite the bullet, and not wait for the next great leap, or you may wait forever. Personally, I was hoping for something more (True DDR, G5's, More MHZ.) Maybe They'll come at MacWorld SF, but Maybe Not.

Lastly, For me, I could care less how fast the P4's are going, or Benchmarks, whatever. It dosn't run Mac OS, Isn't Software/Hardware integrated, and is a pain in the a**. I've never had a problem on my mac I couldn't fix in a couple of minutes. My Grandma bought a 1.4GHZ Athalon and it is slower than my 400mgz G4 and has had 2 problems that have taken a Windows XP Expert over 4 hours each time to fix. Once trying to save her password in Outlook Express, and once installing an Epson printer. 3Ghz PC? No thanks, I'd rather go back to my 60mhz. 6100 and System 7.5 than to endure that torture. h***, where's my Commodore 64....

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08/13, 10:55pm | report spam | close Reply |
Ignorant masses...

For those bitching and whinning that these systems are the most fantastic systems Apple has come up with in years....

GO BUY ONE NOW... no wait... BUY TWO....

Keep Apple alive while we grounded in reality wait for Apple to come up with something respective.

ahahahahahah Suckers!!! Or rather, morons!!!

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08/13, 11:05pm | report spam | close Reply |
Re: Ignorant masses...

Yes these "Mac Macs" are ignorant, but don't call them morons. Suckers... ok... morons... a little harsh.

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08/13, 11:18pm | report spam | close Reply |
Listen Maclot

People, the reason why so many people are "whining" about Apple hardware is because it is pathetic both in price and performance compared to what the PC world has to offer. Simple as that.

This kind of "whining" never happened during the PCC 604 era when Macs were really faster then PCs. We would even shout to the high heavens how fast Macs are compared to those silly windoz box but alas the tables have been turned and the dedicated Mac Zealots now run around town with a banner stuck in their butt crack saying "speed does not matter, the Mac is still easier to use"

LOL.

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08/14, 12:39am | report spam | close Reply |
Racing Stripes + Big Fin

Add some racing strips and a big fin on the back, ready set go! (j/k)

I don't mind the case I think everyone is complaining because it's just a new thing people will get used to it. I was a PC user so the case dosen't bother me too much it's better then the beige cases. If people have some suggestions as to how to make a better looking case with out sacrificing good air flow send your suggestions to Apple.

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08/14, 12:41am | report spam | close Reply |
Stop hiding your face

its about time someone put the high and mighty steve jobs up to task for this continuing fiasco. For all those that are criticizing the complainers, i say geet your head out your respective as_sholes. Why are we so in the dark as to what the h*** is really going on with moto and these rotten g4's that hace tar ished our beautiful mac machines that we have to live on these rumor sites on a daily basis to prey that apple will put its real face on? How many wintel converts are yopu gonna convince with year-late technology that their PR department will spin as "revolutionary", even though we are still getting shafted as to its real performance?

I can sum up the frustration in one example- a company that sells its highest end pro machine with a 130 dollar budget graphics card has their head in their collective arses. noe use that logic with the rest of the old technolgy in the machine, and you wuill come to the same conclusion- moto is s******* apple, and apple in turn is screwiong us with trashy motherboards.

Nuff said!

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08/14, 12:47am | report spam | close Reply |
you PC-lubbin beotches!

I just installed three Dell Dimension 4500's at work today, and yesterday I installed two eMacs and an iMac. The Dells were cheaper, and it shows. The keyboards and mice are plasticky pieces of c***, the monitors suck hard, unless you pay the extra hundreds of dollars for a flat-screen.

Granted, the Dell machines are snappy, and run fast; but you have to run Windows XP, one of the most horribly designed OS's of all time! It's horrific to just simply configure a machine for file sharing! It keeps trying to get you to launch all these stupid Wizards, it keeps giving you the run around as if IT knows better about how to configure itself than you do. To get to the TCP/IP setting you have to click through about 4 or 5 dialog boxes. And how do you log into the machine from another machine and get root-level access to the hard drive? Still haven't figured that one out! It took me 30 minutes just to get these things to see each other over the network, because as it turns out, they don't come with the proper IPX protocol installed! Not to mention that the new Windows XP theme is a completely ridiculous attempt to make XP seem more Mac OS X - like, with drop shadows and such, but all they did was make Windows so much more complicated that every Windows user I know just reverts back to the old Windows settings so it looks and feels like Windows ME/98/95 all over again. It's just terrible. And no, even at 2.2 GHz, it isn't noticeably faster than the 800 MHz iMac running Jaguar. These computers are all so damn fast the average user doesn't care.

Comparing PCs with Macs is like comparing Honda to BMW. You can say your Honda is cheaper, has the same CCs in its engine, the same number (or more) horsepower, similar features up and down the line. But do you hear people bitching because the latest BMW doesn't have enough horses, or whatever? Bullshiit.

I'll take my 550 MHz PowerBook G4 over any Wintel notebook, 1.5 GHz or not, that you can show me. I love this thing, it's fast enough for me. It never crashes, it runs Jaguar like a charm, I have MS Office, Photoshop, Painter, DP3, everything I need, and I couldn't be more pleased. And what's more, it runs Windows 98 in a cute little window! Heh!

You can take my Mac when you pry it from my cold dead fingers. A dual 867-MHz G4 running Jaguar with DDR-Ram is gonna be totally sick for less than 2 grand, and you fools know it. That's a beast of a machine, who cares that some fool out there has a lame a** Winblows XP box running at 2.5 GHz? What the h*** are they doing with it except playing Counterstrike or Ever Crack all night?

Some of you people need a reality check. Go buy a PC and set it up and try to use it for what you normally do. Then do the same thing on a Mac running Jaguar. Then you'll thank me.

-=DG=-

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08/14, 12:56am | report spam | close Reply |
Amen

Amen!

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08/14, 01:11am | report spam | close Reply |
To the whiners ...

... the benchmarks are going to prove that you people are all full of it. You'll see.

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08/14, 01:12am | report spam | close Reply |
Re: Who do you believe?

Good job, now you'll have everyone repeating that FUD comment from the _senior head of product marketing_ like it's gospel.

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08/14, 01:21am | report spam | close Reply |
gospel = reality

> > >
Good job, now you'll have everyone repeating that FUD comment from the _senior head of product marketing_ like it's gospel.

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08/14, 01:24am | report spam | close Reply |
gospel = reality

> > >
Good job, now you'll have everyone repeating that FUD comment from the _senior head of product marketing_ like it's gospel.

Well, I *should be* senior head of product marketing, since Apple has perhaps one of the most-marketable products of any industry. But I'm not. It still doesn't change the fact that Macs are far superior.

What do you people think this is? Some kind of a race? I mean, do you think that, when you get on your computer, and you're getting paid by-the-hour, that you're all in a huge hurry to get everything done? What's a few clock cycles eh? Even if Macs ARE slower, which I've never seen any real evidence to suggest that there is a noticeable difference, what the h*** does it matter, compared to the HOURS you waste setting up new hardware on a PC? Or dealing with Windows bullshiit?

In my spare time I like to chat with the Eliza doc A.I. on emacs in my terminal window. Or I like to teach myself Object C, having installed the developer's tools. What about you, Windows user? You probably playing that Hearts game, eh?

And no, I do not remember the Macs being much faster in the 604 days, either. The difference has always been negligible.

-=DG=-

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08/14, 01:28am | report spam | close Reply |
s**** Winblows

Geez...lookit all the little pinch-faced Winblows trolls hanging out on a Mac board. Guess the insecurity and immaturity never stops, eh? Sorry trolls, but I won't touch your Dulls with a ten-foot pole, not while they're running an OS that desperately WISHES it were the MacOS or OS X, but just isn't, not even close. When they start putting OS X on a Dull, let me know, then maybe I'll consider it.

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08/14, 01:39am | report spam | close Reply |
POWER GALORE

lots of new goodies but the case design willl need some getting used to as with the previous quick silver. Btw all this talk about P4s has anyone heard of the Megahertz myth?

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08/14, 01:53am | report spam | close Reply |
.......

y.....a.......w........n..........

What a tiring forum.

Personally, I can't wait to order mine. I've been using a dual 500 for 2 yearsdoing hi-end motion graphics work with no complaints. Using OSX feels like a brand new machine. I've been patiently waiting for a worthy hardware upgrade and now it's here.

Jump in, the water's great.

-c

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08/14, 01:59am | report spam | close Reply |
Superb engineering!

Why is everyone whining? You have seen Xserve vs. Dull-benchmarks (and Sun, etc.). Apple beats Dull with fair marginal. New G4 is based on same system controller and architecture as Xserve AND faster processor (two of 'em, that's 2x250MHz more :) 1,5 or 1,75GHz might have been nice (for marketing), but for real work even below 1GHz G4 is nice.. I use good old Yikes! for ArchiCAD, which feels much snappier than my 933MHz P3 I use at work (for simple 2d using Microstation on NT4)...

Apple has real ddr implementation. To northbridge and memory. Where do you think your Dull (or other pc) shuffles data at ddr? It's definitely north bridge and memory, not ATA-100 or usb! BTW, how many desktop pc's have you seen with 64bit pci or, L3 cache.. And more of the engineering side, Apple has abandoned north bridge-south bridge architecture years ago, pc chipset makers (incl. intel) are still trying to get rid of south bridge.. About things on PC side, intel is going to implement 333ddr during next year or end of this year.. I know VIA and other taiwanese have it, but whose chipset is in your Dull or HP or Compaq? Likely to be intel.. Intel is still marketing their ridiculous rambus.. And those stupid integrated i810/i815 chipsets in el'cheapo pc's with integrated graphics. Even old iMac with Rage128 is much better on 3d :)

Nobody with even slight knowledge of pc architecture can say honestly that these new G4's are technically lame.. They aren't. Eagerly waiting benchmarks that prove it, because they definitely will beat P4s at 3GHz.. Would like to have one, even still old Yikes! is more than enough.. Just because it's fine piece of engineering! It's brilliant!

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08/14, 02:16am | report spam | close Reply |
USB2 speed is a lie

It doesn't deliver anything remotely close 480. Neither does Firewire deliver close to 400. Firewire 2 would be a waste of technology. None of the system architectures make effective use of USB2's or Firewire's THEORETICAL maximum speeds. It is all a lie to trap fools into thinking they are getting something super fast. Where o where have I seen this before. Oh yeah, MGz. (Psst, a 2 GHz computer rarely reaches close to 2 GHz after Microsoft has it's way with it. XP and Office slow things down considerably.) Stop wishing for useless, not-ready-for-primetime technology.

Apple will release Firewire 2 when they make the change to IBM (or AMD, Nvidia, whoever) processor architecture. The worst thing they could do is release it now, only to have benchmarks come out showing current implementations of Firewire 2 aren't any faster than Firewire 1.

Suckers.

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08/14, 02:42am | report spam | close Reply |
No case for new case

So many of you seem to suggest Apple blow two of the most marketable qualities of a product launch (new technology and new aesthetics) during a time when few are buying. Durrrrr. This is a minor speed bump. That's all it was billed as.

There will be no massive revamps of the system architecture and no new case design in the current economic climate. Period. The Towers are directed toward design studios, production houses, publishing houses, marketing firms, etc. That's where Apple makes it's money. Most of these niches aren't buying in the current economy and aren't projected to be buying in the next 6 to 12 months.

That's not to say Apple doesn't care about the individual buying a single computer, or the 13 to 25 year old who wants to play games at frame rates faster than the human eye can perceive. They just can't build a useful business plan around you.

You won't see Hypertransport or new processors or quad processors or anything significant until these niches are ready to buy and the cases aren't changing until the computer is changing. Period. It would be a giant waste of marketing, R&D, time, money, warehouse space and so on. People might go OOOH and AAAAH, but they wouldn't buy in any kind of serious numbers. By the time the economy improves and people are ready to buy, the buzz would be gone. Timing is essential to a product launch. Please join the rest of us in the real world.

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08/14, 02:58am | report spam | close Reply |
Shut up and buy a machine

You want cool s*** from Apple. Buy a machine, help them echonomically. Without cash there 'aint no R&D and if you sit here and wine wine wine. MicroCrap and Dull will rule the world. Hitler == Bill Gates. s**** you guys I'm going home.

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08/14, 03:11am | report spam | close Reply |
Ok I just have to know.

How many of you people have actually kissed a girl?

...thought so.

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08/14, 03:29am | report spam | close Reply |
RE: Ok I just have to kno

Do my mother and sisters count??

-love,

Midwest, USA

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08/14, 03:51am | report spam | close Reply |
New systems

I use a Dell P4 2GHz at work for SQL and CommerceServer. I use an iMac G3 400MGz at home for Photoshop, Dreamweaver, and general use. The speed difference is negligible. If all you guys want is a pissing contest, you should step away from anything powered by electricity.

(Though it might shock some sense into some of you.)

I was planning on a new computer, mainly because my iMac's monitor size is difficult to work with for some apps. I feel the new computers are transitory offerings. Apple will be leaving the G4 behind and things are just at an inevitably awkward stage in the separation. They aren't offering something new until industry is ready to buy. Don't like, don't buy. Simple, no?

While the new ones don't interest me, the recently made old ones do. If people want a good buy and need a new computer, Apple's lone single proc offering looks pretty attractive. 867 MGz G4 for $1249. I'm buying, although I'll wait for the benchmarks on the new systems just the same. There's a lot more going on there than pseudo DDR and faster hard drives, otherwise why the three fans, the vents, etc. And how loud is it?

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HeatherEcsedi
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08/14, 04:23am | report spam | close Reply |
Speed matters

well sometimes. I wouldn't trade my Mac for the fastest PC but... We just bought 2 Compaq dual 2.2 ghz xeon workstations and just 1 Xserve. The Xserve was a good choice for an easier integration in our Mac network. But when it came down to chosing fast workstations to process huge pieces of data, well, only Wintel NT was a viable solution. BTW, the Pentium 4 is never used in high-end configurations. Not fast enough I guess.

I also would like to say this to all the people calling those who complain about these new Macs whiners: some years ago, every mac user used to welcome new models. You might want to ask yourself why some long-time die hard mac users now criticize these brand new models. I actually think they're good machines and I only wish I had enough cash to buy one. However, I wonder how Steve Jobs intends to double Apple's market shares when so many users complaint about them. Not to mention PC users...

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08/14, 05:57am | report spam | close Reply |
Damn Yanks

YES, I know I'll get flamed for the subject, I'm really not bothered.
My point is this- at the end of the day, they are computers. Machines. Tools. Implements we all use to get the job done. Some have advantages over others. I personally prefer Macs. As long as my mac is fast enough to handle the tasks I need it for, I'll be happy. If it no longer handles those tasks, I will upgrade to the best mac I can reasonably afford.
Who cares if its not the fastest in the world? My friends PC can render 100fps in Unreal Tournament at high res. Mine does 30fps. The human eye cannot tell the difference, so why bother with the higher spec?

Maybe because I'm a Brit I can't get worked up about something like this.

Personally I consider that a good thing.

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darcybaston
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08/14, 07:07am | report spam | close Reply |
let experience decide

Complain all you want, but if one sat on your desk next to the Mac you may have bought a few years ago, you'd be hard pressed not to use the new one and enjoy its new performance.

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testudo
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08/14, 07:50am | report spam | close Reply |
Re: s**** Winblows

Sorry trolls, but I won't touch your Dulls with a ten-foot pole, not while they're running an OS that desperately WISHES it were the MacOS or OS X

He's right. I've actually met Bob Wisiniewski. Talk about one tall guy. And boy does he hate windows...

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08/14, 08:43am | report spam | close Reply |
We should be disappointed

It is fair enough to be openly disappointed in the new G4's - since Apple killed off the clones they have a responsibility to at least keep up with advances in hardware over there in the Wintel world.

Why should be pay more for significantly slower hardware just because we want to use Apple's operating system?

Windows XP is lovely for those of you who have not used it - marry it with Coolermaster Case / AMD Processor / NVIDIA hardware and you have a beautiful, flexible and powerful computer for much less than the price of a G4. Even with twin CPU's!

I would love to buy another Mac but just cannot justify it due to the massively inflated prices and underpowered hardware. I would love to have OSX at home and recommend it to others but cannot justify the price. I am upset that this is brand new equipment from Apple not yet even shipping, but is already months behind.
(ATA133, let alone Serial ATA, 8x AGP, nForce2 chipsets, USB2, 5.1 audio standard etc.. already available in the Wintel world and the painful part is that it costs less!) And I can usually justify any purchase!

All I am asking is that Apple get close to the specs of Wintel machines and do it at a similar cost. This is not much to ask. I will be holding off my dual G4 purchase until they do.

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08/14, 08:49am | report spam | close Reply |
b1tches

Why is everyone being such a b****? The new PowerMacs are fast. Period.

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08/14, 09:52am | report spam | close Reply |
Victim of success

This might have been said already, I couldn't be arsed to read all the complaining.

All I have to say is that I think Apple have been totally a victim of their own success. During the dark years before the iMac and the B&W G3, everyone was depressed with the direction Apple was taking. Then came the iMac, a huge breath of fresh air, plus a sign things were getting better. Then a year later, G4's hit the market as well and Apple looked as though it was back. As the years went on we saw Flat Panels, SuperDrives, new iMac's, iBooks, super-slim PowerBooks, etc. etc.

Thing is, Apple are near to the cutting edge of consumer technology at the moment. Add to that the ecomonic climate isn't the best and maybe you'll understand why although there is small change happening, it is just that... small. Yes the G5 should have been here by now, but IBM are feeling it just as hard as everyone else.

It seems that if Apple doesn't surprise people anymore they just moan completly... I never knew you guys were so fickel.

NB. The last real suprise Apple gave us about .Mac didn't go down to well anyway.

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08/14, 10:19am | report spam | close Reply |
not so fast

I was a mac developer when things got really bad in the 90s.

Having sub par hardware was one of the key problems. Having bad hardware is going to create a lot of fud. It makes people think Apple is not of technical excellence. ( eventhough its really motorolas change of buisiness ) Imagine that you pay for a porsche 911. Then you find out it only drives a max of 90 mile per hour. You feel a little pissed. Ya, it looks nice and handles well but the mustang is smoking on Friday night. Why? Because the mhz myth is not a myth.

Atleast we have top notch software this time. It is the only thing that is keeping the platform alive. They could not have release 10.2 at a better time. On the other hand, the wintel world has many of the Macs applications. eg. Photoshop. This is not even as compelling as it should.

I love the mac. I just want to see things top notch for my dollar. Anything wrong with that?

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mrl14
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08/14, 11:42am | report spam | close Reply |
you girls are missing the

point here. Apples new switch compaign tries to bring windows people to the mac platform. ok good idea. But windows people measure performance in MHZ or GHZ. So how can apple sell a 1.25GHZ mac to a PC user when 2.53GHZ is out and 3GHz is on the way...adding another processor? It means nothing to the average joe. I could go into great detail here and show you how these machines were probably better off not appearing until they were REALLY ready for primetime...let me explain...the XServe mobo is a POS. So it uses DDR Ram...but it has no front side bus...which means when Apple says it runs at 167mhz bus thats what it runs at...and it caps out at 1.3GBPS Memory bandwidth unlike our wintel machines which have true 2.6GBPS bandwidth and run at 333mhz bus with a FSB. Go look at apples site it says with speeds in excess of 1.3GBPS...notice they don't sell you on 2.6gbps or 333mhz bus...BECAUSE APPLES MOBOS ARE HACKED UP MACHINES!!! They aren't even the new 7470 chips...you're all fooled....Apple doesn't expect the know it all geeks to buy these crummy machines....only the newbies...wake up...you're better off buying last revs Dual ghz....and the only way Apple is gonna fix this is if you guys complain...watch profits will be down this quarter it sucks but until Steve gets some ballz to get rid of Motorola we'll always be stuck at half the speed of the wintel world...(at least in #'s)

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woowooo
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08/14, 12:09pm | report spam | close Reply |
I am not a girl...

and Apple is listening. Albeit slowly.
As for Apple, they finally release a decent case design (two bays!). I like it and will buy it.
But Apple needs to lower their prices a little, and lose the 17" LCD for an 18"LCD.
Likely, if you need a mac within the next 6 months, buy one. Who knows whether the G5 will have faster Bus.
maybe we'll see a Quad processor G5. Wouldn't that be sweet? 4 fast processors...make that Appleworks fly :P
Dammit people, quit complaining and buy AAPL. Then you'll understand...

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08/14, 01:12pm | report spam | close Reply |
How you look at it...

It all depends on how you look at it. With all macs now dual, we could say:
1.734 GHz of power for $1,699.00
2 GHz for $2,499.00
and 2.5 GHz for $3,299.00.
I can't wait to change my 400 MHz G4 for a dual 1 GHz.
By the way, with the improvements in 10.2, would a hypotethical 2 GHz single processor be faster than a dual 1 GHz system?

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08/14, 01:43pm | report spam | close Reply |
These Machines Rock

Go to your local Comp USA and simply navigate the XP interface on a 2gig + machine... it's still choppy!! Even without a graphics layer like Aqua, it struggles. Try using the Windows Movie Maker, Media player, surf the net... it chokes (did this on a top of the line Vaio) Then mosy your pathetic a** over to the Mac section... iMovie, Quick Time, iPhoto, iTunes all busy rendering, playing, visualizing - smooth as silk.... THAT is what it's all about!!

I graduated from the Art Institute of Seattle's Computer Animation department. We thought we were spoiled rotten when the shipment of Plll @ 300mhz came in. We were using these "high end" machines for Softimage 3D, 3D Studio Max... etc.

I can tell you this, my brother a first time computer owner, will be sporting major wood when his dual gig machine is delivered!!!

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08/14, 06:19pm | report spam | close Reply |
ewwww

these new computers look like a**. apple's legendary design department must have gone on vacation, so a few guys at apple decided to get a hacksaw and a gastank cover to update the box. GREAT JOB STEVE.

maybe one day they will make em fast too.

it sux to love the mac as much as i do, and witness this kind of disappointment.

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08/14, 06:19pm | report spam | close Reply |
ewwww

these new computers look like a**. apple's legendary design department must have gone on vacation, so a few guys at apple decided to get a hacksaw and a gastank cover to update the box. GREAT JOB STEVE.

maybe one day they will make em fast too.

it sux to love the mac as much as i do, and witness this kind of disappointment.

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08/14, 07:49pm | report spam | close Reply |
New towers 9 bootable

http://www.macnightowl.com/index.htm#beginning

"Yes, folks, the new Power Macs will continue to boot under Mac OS 9, even though Mac OS X is the default operating system. Despite growing fears on the part of some Mac users that Apple is about to pull the plug and prevent booting into the older operating system, it just isn't so. According to Apple, the new models include both Jaguar and Mac OS 9.2.2 and retain dual boot capability. If you need to reinstall the Classic system, the four Restore CDs included with the new model allow you to do selective restores without having to erase the drive. Unfortunately, this is a little tidbit of information that some Mac Web sites are getting wrong."

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08/15, 04:33am | report spam | close Reply |
combo driver slower

happen to test the new g4,good but the combo drive worked better and faster on the older g4

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08/15, 08:29am | report spam | close Reply |
Not fast enough?????

I am the Director of IT services at a large Cable TV network. We used to do all of our animation and video editing on very fast windows machines. Last Year we were given a demo of OS X with our software running on it and it blew the entire staff away. I have 300 plus machines up and running and next week will order an additional 300 machines. These new towers are exactly what we wanted. Apple is playing to its base customers right now since we are the only ones buying. Graphics pros love APPLE. You people complain about Apple but you are one customer or 150 customers on this board. How many machines do the people who complain constantly buy?

If you don't like it just don't buy it.

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08/15, 11:07am | report spam | close Reply |
SO WHAT?

THE G4 EVOLUTION IS TAKEN IN SLOW STEPS! THE G5 IS WHEN I'LL BUY A NEW COMPUTER AND EVEN THEN IT BETTER BE GROUNDBREAKING! UNTIL THEN WE'LL JUST SEE ANOTHER CASE DESIGN AND A MINOR SPEED BOOST, LOL!

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08/15, 11:07am | report spam | close Reply |
SO WHAT?

THE G4 EVOLUTION IS TAKEN IN SLOW STEPS! THE G5 IS WHEN I'LL BUY A NEW COMPUTER AND EVEN THEN IT BETTER BE GROUNDBREAKING! UNTIL THEN WE'LL JUST SEE ANOTHER CASE DESIGN AND A MINOR SPEED BOOST, LOL!

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08/15, 11:35am | report spam | close Reply |
desertwind

I read the comments on this board and realize that there is a complete disconnect between the comments and what is actually being reported. It certainly appears as if a lot of "mac fans" are panning this release prior to any substantial benchmarks. I have been amazed how quickly people talk about slow and fast about a machine with an entirely new architecture and a completely updated operating system as if they are experts. God, how I long to return to a time when people had the patience to be either silent for supportive until proven otherwise.

Oh, and for the group of PC trolls running around pretending to be mac fans, you fool noone except yourselves. Mac users all know why they utilize the macintosh. They are discerning individuals with an eye on quality of experience. Macintosh is more than a computer, it is a lifestyle. Get a PC or get a life!

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08/16, 12:31am | report spam | close Reply |
OS VS Windows

I'm sick of Windows. I'm switching to Mac. I'm big in movies and found limitation with Sony desktops when creating DVD movies. Its time to switch to real computer.
I like the new design of G4 case it looks cool.
Mac is still the best in movies and photos.

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08/18, 09:16pm | report spam | close Reply |
Sweet

Just what i've been waiting for. I nice low end dual processor. As for a 3ghz...lets see if this processor is actually faster than its predecessor I'd hate to see Intel go through another lawsuit.

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08/18, 09:17pm | report spam | close Reply |
Very Nice

Just what i've been waiting for. I nice low end dual processor. As for a 3ghz...lets see if this processor is actually faster than its predecessor I'd hate to see Intel go through another lawsuit.

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09/02, 03:50am | report spam | close Reply |
speed

The computer hype is over, the public dosen't give a dam about computers, most people keep what they have or get a new wintell sell the mac or loose users!!! I have a 500 ibook and don't care about MHZ
I just know I like the mac for mac,
For what ?email,internet, do I need more speed ?
I don't think so 500 is fine.

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09/18, 09:00am | report spam | close Reply |
your company

sounds s***

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09/18, 09:02am | report spam | close Reply |
$300,000

still sounds s***.

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10/01, 05:27pm | report spam | close Reply |
ok, u little cryin' girl

Let's make things clear ! I guess there are a lot of people tired of your damn complaints, when, in fact, u do nothing productive !
1. It's true that the S***** wintelly machines outperform the pm's from the hardware p.o.v.; but think about the os : do u think u could ever compare the sluggish and cracky xp to the jaguar ? Not in lifetime; i'm using the xp pro at my workplace and the jaguar at home, and, trust me, the f@#$ing gates' product SUCKS like h*** ! ( and, by the way, i don't have a pm 'cause i couldn't afford it; i just have the "cheapest" newer LCD iMac.
What comes next ? It's true that, like always, apple has overpriced its products - it's the cause which could once have sent the company into bankruptcy - the mother-f@#$ers MS users would have been soooo happy...the h*** with them; still, the show went on, and it doesn't matter that stevie isn't gates, nor has his bank account, his products are just the coolest ever;
it's not all about mhz, u idiots ! the speed does not depend on mhz only, u a******* ! If u've got DDR, a 7200 rpm hdd, firewire, usb, u can compete with any Darkside...so think again before posting your f@#$in' stupid ideas !
AS for the big 4 holes on the front side, it's true, i would have liked to be only 3 - they would have reminded me about my girlfriend's....but it doesn't matter, 4 is ok (not to mention they help with the proper and better ventilation 4 the cpu and the graphics card ).
Let's put it this way :
Traitors r not accepted - access denied; if u don't like our macs and want to switch to the morony wintel world, feel free 2 go, but don't cry after.
Finally, it's not all about speed; it is about a much better product and cooler design : u just cannot face it - the new pm case is more than wonderful; it's just that it should have had 3, not 4 holes.

Endie

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Apple updates Power Mac G4 line

updated 09:05 am EDT, Tue August 13, 2002

Related Articles

Recent Articles

woop

New Case design?

four holes in front

lame

Too slow / too expensive

Good stuff

Ugly piece of ?%$#

pricing

pricing

To slow?

ddr half way

I wonder...

Hand grip

Nice!

Hand grip

As a G4/400 user...

Good, Bad & Ugly:

Good, Bad & Ugly:

Butt Ugly Design

Man..

Man..

But can it boot OS 9?

Man..

Pretty sad.

Biggest Speed Increase?

Fanatical ...

'Dem holes

'Dem holes

Nice

What processor ?

Nice

slow superdrive

Why the complaints

Yawn.

For uneducated people...

geees!

you people...

Pathetic whiners

whine and b****

Ok Jerks

Re: Yawn

to Good,Bad,Ugly...

BTW

Re: Whine and b****

awesome internal design

reason for whining

ports...

speed

re: btw

Yawn :(

re: Too Slow

afasf

RE: SPEED

re:Man...

Now Sampling...

Re: reasons

Whiners' tantrums.

Speed is measured

Size doesn't matter

Case design

Further and furtherbehind

Look on the bright side..

RE: speed is measured

Getting there..

Back off, fascists

my thoughts

cnt...

complain

You can't please everyon

Re: You can't please...

L3 Cache

Pentium 4 marketing

slow down ........

Price drop

haha

Disapointed?