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Navy anti-Mac?

updated 05:45 pm EST, Tue December 12, 2000

Federal Computer Week has posted a story about the demise of Macintosh hardware in the U.S. Navy, citing Electronic Data Services Corp.'s decision not to support it in its eight-year contract. "The Naval Air Systems Command once had more than 10,000 Apple users, but their numbers have dwindled in recent years as Navair chief information officers in China Lake, Calif., and Patuxent River, Md., have restricted purchases of non-Microsoft Corp. systems."

by MacNN Staff

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12/12, 06:05pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
Pay to play

The message is very simple, Apple needs to pay to play in the goverment market. In this case, the party with the open palms is EDS. Supporting Windows is an expensive proposition, but for EDS it is a money-making proposition. Apple needs a "strategic relationship" with EDS to ensure that Macintosh computers don't get locked out.

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12/12, 06:14pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
Not very Bright to begin

I was in the Navy and I can tell you first hand that the Navy does not want any Macs. The people responsible for purchasing computers have no clue what windows machins can do let alone Macs. They go mainly by size of the following. And since Apple only has about 10% of the market they have no place in the Navy. I sure am sorry that these people are so narrow minded.

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12/12, 06:48pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
Facts

Back when the Mac DID have 10-12% marketshare, those "10,000" machines made their way into the Navy. It's more like 3% now.

Besides, trying to divide by zero and crapping out could just as easily happen to a Mac.. so then how'd we all get such a good laugh if a warship got waylaid by a Mac?

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12/12, 06:53pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
EDS

Gee...I worked with several EDS people 5-6 years ago on government contract proposals...they were all walking around with Powerbooks that had been furnished by EDS. What happened?

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12/12, 07:55pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
I read somewhere

I read somewhere that government often specifies things like 800 MHz or faster CPU. So how can Apple possibly compete with that? It's not like they can go in and change the procurement process, any more than they can change 95% of the population's naive assumptions about megahertz == speed.

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12/12, 08:09pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
May it happen to them

Just a few short years ago, make that two, a warship on exercise was stranded at sea when a Microsoft NT server, the main one for the ship, crapped out.

May that happen to the Nave too during an exercise and lets see if they reverse that decision.

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12/12, 08:32pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
To the facts bozo

For computers on warships, you can go look it up, the Navy is opting for Windows NT.
With OS X around the corner, if a mac were monitoring operations on a warship it could take a licking and keep on ticking.

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12/12, 08:52pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
Chinagate

It fits in very well with the Clinton/Gore hate of the military. Give the Chinese missle secrets, and put a sub-standard, easily hacked platform on a military ship... so what else is new.

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12/12, 09:15pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
open source

well that's not exactly ideal for us Mac users that the Navy is no longer using Macs, but what disturbs me more is that they're using windows.

i believe that Government institutions should be using open source software, especially the military. it's more stable and standards compliant, and having access to the sourcecode ensures that it is secure as well. also any changes the Government needs made to their software are distributed back to the community, instead of just putting all that money into the pockets of Microsoft.

so it's a shame they're not using Macs (i happen to like MacOS like the rest of you), but really, the government is supposed to be for the people, and to that end, should be forced to use open source software, or pay to have software created for them that is in turn open sourced.

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12/12, 09:44pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
Apple Deserves This

Basically Apple has dug itself into its own hole. And Technically they own a monopoly on the Mac Market. They control what me and you can use and buy. How much we spend, whats available for the platform. Lets see how much Apple cares...they have done little pressuring to get Motorola to release faster machines, they rip us off big time, i mean 5000$ for WHAT? Nothing! EVERYTHING IS SO GOD DAMN EXPENSIVE and no one wants to support the mac. It's the little people who by PC's and Apple just isn't capturing them, my next cpu is gonna be a PC simply b/c i can no longer support Apple with all this money they want =(

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12/12, 10:09pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
money

Simply, you get what you pay for. I pick Apple because I feel it's a better running system. And the price I pay I would spend the same for the pc equivelent. (I don't mean numbers to numbers)

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12/12, 10:20pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
Navy vs. Army

There was a reason why the Army went to Apple servers. h***, Microsoft can't even keep their servers from getting hacked. After the navy gets hacked into the first time, I hope they get a clue and switch over to OSX. I'm glad I'm not in the Navy.

nate

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12/12, 10:28pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
Remember THIS...

The US Navy will regret its decision to use ONLY NT based systems as did a large multi-national sales organization just two years ago. That company tried to replace 23 AS/400 Servers with 1200 NT Servers to run their international operations. After 2 months of trying to get the NT servers to work they were forced to return to using the AS/400 servers. BTW - the company was MICROSOFT.

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12/12, 10:41pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
re: what happened

Gee...I worked with several EDS people 5-6 years ago on
government contract proposals...they were all walking around with
Powerbooks that had been furnished by EDS. What happened?

So did consultants from KPMG, Arther Young, McKinsey etc. They were systematically bought out with "strategic investments" from Microsoft.

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12/13, 12:40am | report spam | close Reply | delete
It's Steve's fault

Subject says it all.... (I don't know the details, but it must be his fault). If Apple had cloning like before, the military would be snapping those puppies up like, well, puppies! Just like in 97. Oh wait, they didn't snap them up in 97. Oh well.

The basic problem here is the same as with large companies. IT managers who want more power, go with the OS that gives them that (not in hardware, but with the money and manpower they need to service all these computers). They also go by the "you can't go wrong if you buy what everyone else is buying" philospohy. And they do it all on the concept of saving the government (or the company) money. "If we standardize on windows, we save $$$ because we only have to know how one OS works" (no need to mention that it takes 3 years to learn how windows works). "If we just use MS Office, then we won't waste time and money trying to convert wordperfect files". The problem with all of this is they're getting sucked into M$'s trap. They've been talking about just leasing software (which most large licenses are nowadays anyways, just one-year site licenses) on a yearly basis, and their .Net strategy is aimed directly at that concept, as well as tying both ends into the windows platform by claiming clients can run cross-platform (that's what they say now, but who wants to bet that it will be lacking some of the special features on the Mac or Unix side of things).

You suck 'em in with cheap prices to drive out competition, and then bleed them dry through leasing arrangements that make it look like its a bargain in the short term (just like Rent-Town, until you discover you've just paid $500 for a $150 VCR).

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12/13, 12:48am | report spam | close Reply | delete
re: opensource

The government will never use Open Source software. There's too much risk on the decision maker's side (remember, these are government workers, they're not going to put their fat pensions on the line by taking chances).
- No real support mechanism.
- Questions on reliability (hey, just because software is open source doesn't in itself make it more stable than other software, you need "good" and "professional" programmers willing to do the work and testers who care about the stuff to report the problems).
- Added in-house costs (hiring your own coders to make the fixes/changes no one else wants to make).

The government won't be going open-source until there's a real benefit on all sides for it to happen. And its the gov't, for goodness sakes. Since when do they like anything open??? (Well, except their flies, I mean).

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12/13, 04:36am | report spam | close Reply | delete
It's not all Windows

Windows isn't the only thing being used in the Navy/Marine Corps. The NALCOMIS System used in the Aviation communities is all UNIX.

Most of the real hard core appplications are UNIX and will never be replaced by Windows. Windows are for the weenies who type up their little reports. UNIX (and WebObjects to some degree) are used for some of the most powerful applications you'll see used in the Navy/Marine Corps today.

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12/13, 04:36am | report spam | close Reply | delete
It's not all Windows

Windows isn't the only thing being used in the Navy/Marine Corps. The NALCOMIS System used in the Aviation communities is all UNIX.

Most of the real hard core appplications are UNIX and will never be replaced by Windows. Windows are for the weenies who type up their little reports. UNIX (and WebObjects to some degree) are used for some of the most powerful applications you'll see used in the Navy/Marine Corps today.

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12/13, 08:04am | report spam | close Reply | delete
Be worried

These are the people who allowed a warship to use MS NT 4.0 in a strategic system, only to find that the OS left the ship dead in the water. Go thing it wasn't wartime. Juxtapose that with the fact that Apple is looking to market Macs in China and Russia (or what's left of Russia). We already know that Macs have more horsepower than Wintel boxes, and that Macs are more reliable. If you were to be on a future battlefield, one side using PCs and Windows for strategic systems, the other side using Macs, which side would you want to be on?

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12/13, 10:16am | report spam | close Reply | delete
$5000?? What?/

To the person who has decided to get a PC next because he's tired of Apple's High prices, I say WHAT?? I've got a G4 MP and a 17" monitor (the clear case, not flat panel and it cost right around $3000. If I wanted to save money, I could get an iMac for half that price, and if money was still tight, there's always the $799 iMac. How cheap do you want these computers? Apple will not sell a $300 computer. Why? Because they'd loose money on it. Where are all those free PC makers now? Gone, because they made no money on their machines. If you're paying $5000 for a machine, it must be the high-end model with extra's. If that's what your buying, then you're getting what you pay for!

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12/13, 11:08am | report spam | close Reply | delete
Who's really responsible

This anti-Mac attitude doesn't exist throughout the whole military. Most people just use what they are given. I for one used my own Mac when I was the Maintenance Chief of a helicopter squadron. Should I have had to use my own. No. That's another story. The problem exist for many reason. One of the most abused is when an RFP to develop/procure a Weapons Platform or Weapons System is written, it's written by people who are very biased. They have/want something very specific in mind and when writing specifications will go so far as to spec a computer, not by name, but instead by detailed mfg specs so that they end up with the exact computer they want because that mfg is the only one who's capable of meeting the specification in the first place. It's a nasty game and it gets played every day by people in upper management who are trying to leave their mark and/or outdo their peers.
Having spent 20 years in the military I can tell you there are more Bill Gates disciples in the upper management levels of the military than there are enlisted to people to fight the battles and wars these people would so willingly throw us into. For what? Just to prove the Weapon System/Weapon Platform they procured is better than the next guys.

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12/13, 11:08am | report spam | close Reply | delete
Who's really responsible

This anti-Mac attitude doesn't exist throughout the whole military. Most people just use what they are given. I for one used my own Mac when I was the Maintenance Chief of a helicopter squadron. Should I have had to use my own. No. That's another story. The problem exist for many reason. One of the most abused is when an RFP to develop/procure a Weapons Platform or Weapons System is written, it's written by people who are very biased. They have/want something very specific in mind and when writing specifications will go so far as to spec a computer, not by name, but instead by detailed mfg specs so that they end up with the exact computer they want because that mfg is the only one who's capable of meeting the specification in the first place. It's a nasty game and it gets played every day by people in upper management who are trying to leave their mark and/or outdo their peers.
Having spent 20 years in the military I can tell you there are more Bill Gates disciples in the upper management levels of the military than there are enlisted to people to fight the battles and wars these people would so willingly throw us into. For what? Just to prove the Weapon System/Weapon Platform they procured is better than the next guys.

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12/13, 11:42am | report spam | close Reply | delete
Nasa too

This happened to NASA too, several years ago. The head IT geek decided (against the protestation of most of the scientists) to 'standardize' on Windoze. It turns out that there was a 'stratigic alliance' in place with Microsoft. The people that actually had to use these things were screwed, many brought their own powerbooks and patched into the network to get the real work done.

I could only shake my head the other day watching astronauts on a live Nasa TV feed spending hours in the new space station at god knows how many gazillion dollars trying to get their printer to work with tech support from the ground. It was almost hilarious.

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12/13, 02:46pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
Macs are available!

I heard a few weeks back that Macs are now available in the AFES military stores and catalog. That's a nice thing at least. Of course those stores are most likely run by private firms that don't have to adhere to all the policies of the different branches....

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12/13, 04:16pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
Get the facts straight

Part of the problem with Mac zealots is their use of rumors and myths as fact. About the only sensible comment made here was by the reader discussing NALCOMIS. Truth is, MacOS is NOT reliable enough to be used in military applications. Reliability is critical. Scalability is critical. Support is critical (Why Linux is not that huge, and Solaris, for example, is widely used). Windows NT may have its faults, but it IS a server OS.
Having said that, I would love to see Apple push OSX (BSD!) into more markets. Apple hardware is simply the best.

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12/13, 06:43pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
The Main Cause Is . . .

In order to get government contracts in classified projects [like Aegis Cruisers], the equipment [in this case, the OS] needs to have a Security Rating. Most of the classified areas use custom OSs. The catch is: no commercial OS HAS the rating, with the exception of MS WindowsNT [which rates a lowly 'C']. This means that for many of these contracts, you must either develop your own [at an ungodly expense] or MUST use Windows.

Aside from being unfortunate, it is also quite ironic. WindowsNT is quite UN-secure as Operating Systems go. And, MacOS [don't know about OSX] is very secure.

If you happen to work for a non-Microsoft OS provider, do us all a favour and agitate to get your OS put through the tests for security clearance.

PS To the reader who thought that dividing by zero could have "crapped-out" a Mac just as easily. Doubtful. I don't know enough about Macs themselves [I work w/Linux, Solaris, and NT5]--but to have an OS crash from an application encountering a normal [common] error? Appropriate for 1960s level technology: this is not acceptable behaviour for anything more sophisticated than a pocket watch. It's outrageous enough that the programme itself crashed--to take the OS down with it is beyond absurd.

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12/13, 07:34pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
Mac's Run the World

I live in Colorado Springs and work at a mac store. I see machines being sold to many of the Government Design firms who create the hardware that goes into those ships - Are they using Pc's --I don't think so. Yes Apple is expensive - but do you want quality or a cheap imitation of the real thing in our most important areas of defense. It would be a lot easier to crash a warship with NT than running any Mac OS. Maybe the Navy should hold a test to see which server is crash prone before they give all their money to the Evil Empire. Even Nasa replaced many mainframes with G4's.
Apple's products would be cheaper to the public if everyone wasn't brainwashed to buy these "P"ieces of "C"rap.
?????????????????????????????

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12/13, 07:56pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
Navy IT 2001

This program was initiated by Admiral Archie Clemens who currently is retired and working for who else MS. Sure does stink of conflict of interest.

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12/13, 07:56pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
Navy IT 2001

This program was initiated by Admiral Archie Clemens who currently is retired and working for who else MS. Sure does stink of conflict of interest.

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12/13, 08:29pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
Overpriced Macs my A$$

Wake up Buckwheat. Brand new G4 MP500/Radeon/384mbRAM/60GB-HD/20" Apple Multi-Scan(used-predecessor to ColorSync monitors)... Grand total:2,980.00 Go suck an egg with your "Macs are too expensive" drivel. Zack in Colorado

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12/13, 09:10pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
Reign of Pentium Errors

The Pentium math algorithms are notoriously faulty. I am not speaking of the compiler libraries but rather the CPU itself.

The response from Windoze dorks has always been "Yea, well the PowerPC probably does too." The fact that the PowerPC is not mathematically impaired is one of the reasons why it is considered industrial strength and used in embedded systems. For this and various reasons, the Pentium is not industrial strength.

Apparently industrial strength is not a qualification for the Navy. Apparently our Navy thinks that "good enough" is.

So, while our naval vessels lay helpless in the drink, at the mercy of enemy fire, it will take the real fighting forces, the Army & the Marines, to bail their swabby arses out of NT jams.

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12/13, 11:26pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
No Navy!

I'm from Canada and use a Mac at work and home. I started using computers with Dos3.3 (a fine system it was) and a Sinclair Z80 which I still have. Use Win 98/NT also when required by equipment/software. Canada's Navy is almost extinct and the Federal Gov't chose Windows. You may have a conspiracy goin' on down there. Over 90% of people who buy computers don't even know why they are buying one, it's a consumer oriented society. Buy a 4x4 now becuase oil will never run out.

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12/14, 11:16am | report spam | close Reply | delete
Feds are Hyppocrites

First the Feds say that Microsoft has too much market share and spends millions decimating the company in a BS anti-trust case, then they turn around and stipulate to using only MS, perhaps based on marketshare, IN any case, it seems wrong to say out of one side of your mouth that MS is a monopoly and that it has too much market share and no competition and then on the other side of your mouth say we will only procure MS because it has such high market share which is the same type of mindset that created the so-called problem in the first place.

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12/15, 09:43pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
China Lake

The smartest engineers and scientists in the Armed Forces are at the Naval Weapons Center, China Lake.

They used to be all Mac, because smart people there decided to use Macs. If those scientists have not been beaten over the head by someone higher up with some kind of MS bias!

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Navy anti-Mac?

updated 05:45 pm EST, Tue December 12, 2000

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