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http://www.macnn.com/articles/02/03/04/antitrust.sanctions/

Antitrust sanctions could kill Windows

updated 12:35 pm EST, Mon March 4, 2002

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The Washington Post reports: "Microsoft Corp. plans to argue in court hearings next week that if antitrust sanctions sought by state prosecutors are granted, the company would be forced to pull its latest Windows computer operating systems off the market and be unable to develop new systems." Meanwhile, Chairman Bill Gates is expected to take the witness stand when the case against the company returns to trial starting March 11.

by MacNN Staff

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MacNN.com Reader
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03/04, 12:42pm | report spam | close Reply |
bull hookey

they are too greedy to stop making windows. All the states are saying is decouple things like the browser and media play so you don't get a monoply in unfairly like you did with windows.

the attitude of this tobbaco company of the internet age is shameless and sickening. I guess 50 billion still isn't enough. Still need more?

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03/04, 12:43pm | report spam | close Reply |
PLEASE PLEASE

Please pull the latest version of winblows off the market. The can only be a BETTER place for it!!!

madbard
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03/04, 12:52pm | report spam | close Reply |
PULL WINDOWS OFF MARKET?

Oh pretty pretty please with sugar and cream on top!!!

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03/04, 12:58pm | report spam | close Reply |
ooooo

Ohhhh noooo, they's gonna pull Windaws? Oh pretty please Microsoft, we're sorry, we didn't mean to get you upset, please keep developing Windows! We won't do it again, pwomise!

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03/04, 12:58pm | report spam | close Reply |
We need Windows

It's called competition. We just have to make sure that there's something that can compete with it. OS X on Intel would be a great way to compete with MS directly (although it probably won't happen).

robguz
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03/04, 12:58pm | report spam | close Reply |
Oh darn!

Isn't that actually a great argument as to why the state sanctions should go through. Jeez, even with the state sanctions, they'll be up to there old tricks in no time. This whole case hasn't slowed their anticompetetive practices one iota. the only remedy worth pursuing is a breakup of the company into at least 4 divisions, OS, Apps, Net, Other products (like X-box). Even with that there's a good chance they'd maintain their monopoly in each of those. the judge needs to show Microslop no mercy!

chadmacd
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03/04, 12:59pm | report spam | close Reply |
good

" the company would be forced to pull its latest Windows computer operating systems off the market and be unable to develop new systems."

Good.

the Rebel
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03/04, 01:03pm | report spam | close Reply |
Call their bluff

I hope that the courts do not give in to such threats from Microsoft.

Microsoft is a corpoartion ultimately owned by stockholders. Because of these stockholders, Microsoft could not possibly follow through on pulling Windows from the market.

sebuchen
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03/04, 01:19pm | report spam | close Reply |
And this would be bad?

And this would be bad because...? I don't see their point. How many people are using their "latest" version of Windows and who would give a s*** if they pulled it or not. Like that's going to HURT someone? I don't see Billy's point. Anyone else?

denim
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03/04, 01:26pm | report spam | close Reply |
This is a problem?

I don't see a down side to this.

Del Vach
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03/04, 01:31pm | report spam | close Reply |
Fairy tales

The Tooth Fairy, Santa Claus, Easter Bunny, and legal actions against Microsoft that do anything but spend several years in appeal until they're dismissed.

$ justice

Big Mac
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03/04, 01:35pm | report spam | close Reply |
The Only Thing to do

The true solution to Gates' quagmire is to finally restore Windows to its rightful owner after all of these years. Windows is actually the mentally challenged cousin of the Mac OS, Windows' twisted UI was nonetheless stolen from the Apple. Microsoft can end all of these issues by giving us Windows back so that we can properly dispose of the beast.

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03/04, 01:37pm | report spam | close Reply |
Chicken

That's all this is, a game of "chicken". The goverment will blink, and quickly, though, because Gates really would pull Windows from the market. Financially they're flush enough to ride it out for as long as it would take for the stuff to hit the fan, and on top of that they'd still have income from their other software to soften the blow.

Once all those businesses, facing delays in their IT operations and an ocean of costs to retool to another platform (If Gates stuck to his guns for too long), started to beat their congress members over the head, arms would be twisted and M$ would get whatever it wanted to get Windows back on the market.

But all the players already know this, so the battle has already been won without a shot being fired.

JMill

phillymjs
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03/04, 01:39pm | report spam | close Reply |
Remember when...

...the DOJ was gonna make Microsoft delay Windows 98 over the anticompetitive welding-in of IE?

Remember how Microsoft pissed and moaned at how any delay would have dire consequences like recession, hamburgers eating people, and the Earth plunging into the sun?

Remember how the DOJ backed off, and how Microsoft wound up not shipping Win 98 on time anyway because it wasn't ready, and somehow the space-time continuum was not turned back in on itself thus destroying the universe?

This is more of the same BS. The company who gives away free stuff so its competitors can't compete fairly, once again whining that *it* wouldn't be able to compete if it were to be punished for its past misdeeds. And we're supposed to pity them? Please.

iChick
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03/04, 01:42pm | report spam | close Reply |
Melodrama Bla Bla Bla

"We're gonna take our ball and go home...."

::snowman::
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03/04, 01:44pm | report spam | close Reply |
odd

How come while all this is going on, Microsoft is still percieved as strong and sometimes even shares go up. No matter if it's security bugs or lawsuits, Microsoft constantly 'fakes' everyone out ... ?

Meanwhile, Apple introduces a computer everyone wants with demand for it coming out the wazzoo ... but they can't ship them fast enough and we still get stories of "Apple's Demise" ...

it just seems odd. Billy-boy could try and drown 3 children while setting their house on fire and MS stock would still go up, meanwhile Steve-o could give the children CPR and put out the fire with a bucket and Apple stock would go down.

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03/04, 01:55pm | report spam | close Reply |
Important

If it wasn't for MS the we probably wouldn't have OS X. Competition forces the level of the game to rise. At the moment Apple is still playing catch-up. In speed as well as functionality. OS X has more potential, but at this time Windows is far more mature.

I hate Windows, but never the less it has brought us OS X and in the long run we are going to be so much better for it. Now Apple needs customers and a better income stream. Selling hardware is OK but it really needs to sell applications, look at the revenue stream MS derives from Office. It probably makes more money on sales of Office alone than Apple make as a company.

berserkintosh
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03/04, 01:56pm | report spam | close Reply |
ah man

this will never happen. if it did this means i might have to start believing in democracy again instead of the golden rule.

gtabbott
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03/04, 02:12pm | report spam | close Reply |
Let's be honest

Wouldn't the demise of Windows (at least, as we know it, which is all that is really at stake) really be the only way that Justice could truly be served here? How many companies did Microsoft drive to bankruptcy with it's anticompetitive practices? How many people were directly harmed by Microsoft's wielding of the Windows monopoly.

That said, it is, of course, absurd to think that MS actually would pull Windows. At most they may be forced to remove some "extras" (more likely, they'll need to just make them optional). If their poor little operating system is not able to survive without its little half-rate bells and whistles, then how can they argue that it has been successful on its quality alone?

chas_m
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03/04, 02:22pm | report spam | close Reply |
What a line of c***

Personally, I am shocked .... shocked I tell you ... to suspect that Microsoft might actually be lying or (at the very least) exaggerating its claims in order to spread fear. This has got to be a FIRST for the company.

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03/04, 02:26pm | report spam | close Reply |
Kill Windows

or Microsoft kills the technology field.

Windows is no longer a "development platform" for anyone but Microsoft. Unlike Linux, FreeBSD, and even MacOS X, developing for Windows is fragmented, creates numerous compatibility problems, and in the end places the developer at risk of having his product stolen by Microsoft and interwoven with a future Windows release.

When using Windows, one is effectively an unpaid volunteer beta-tester for Microsoft, a "zombie" to whom Microsoft pushes Microsoft-centralized services like Passport and MSN shopping, not a tool for self-enrichment.

fe0173

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03/04, 02:31pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
You want proof?

The fact that someone might actually be threatened by this comment or the fact that MS is using that as a threat is pretty much decisive evidence that they are an abusive monolpoly.

MS is pretty much trying use it's monopoly to threaten the US economy directly at this point. If the government fails to see this then they have failed in their duties as a whole.

beno
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03/04, 02:36pm | report spam | close Reply |
fear, uncertainty, doubt

hey it's just old microsoft operating their trusty FUD machine! once again they're pretending their software is some autonomous beast that has a mind of it's own. (come to think of it, windows probably is...)

now we have to wait and see if the judge is savvy enough to know that software can be anything the programmer wants it to be.

in a way this is good news because to me this shallow, recycled BS seems a rather desperate defence.

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03/04, 02:38pm | report spam | close Reply |
Monopoly? Nooo....

Isn't that actually a great argument as to why the state sanctions should go through.

That and fe0173 have it spot on. Leave it to Microsoft to leverage their monopoly IN A FREAKING ANTITRUST SUIT! It boggles the mind how any of this a) gets past the government and b) doesn't get dealt with effectively, ever. Sheesh.
-MacOS761

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03/04, 02:44pm | report spam | close Reply |
Gates = Crybaby

Cry me a river, Billy. You made your own bed with your abusive monopoly practices, now lie in it, you pasty wimp.

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03/04, 02:47pm | report spam | close Reply |
Bush admin has no courage

No doubt the knee-jerkly pro-big-business Bush administration will cave, cave, cave at this latest (and outrageous) Microsoft threat. But everyone sees this coming...Bush was Enron's lackey until the c*** hit the fan, and now he'll be Microsoft's lackey out of his own ideological postions and some feet of clay. Oh well.

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03/04, 02:49pm | report spam | close Reply |
MS pushes around US Govt

The subject says it all. Bill is now our President, since he can tell the govt what to do at will. Hail to the new Chief...maybe George W. will be allowed to bring Gates' his slippers, if he's really good...

testudo
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03/04, 03:04pm | report spam | close Reply |
What's the problem?

I use windows daily (unfortunately). I even program in the thing. I for one would just like to know how and why removing IE and all that other c*** from Windows is such an impossible task. You notice they never say how it would impact people. (I can't wait to hear from those small and mid-sized companies how splitting out IE is going to bring them to the brink of bankruptcy). "Ms. Judge, if we had to support more than the 16 versions of windows we support now, with even more incompatibilities between them, we'll go out of business."

The thing is, how many people would actually buy the IE-less version of windows. Unless price is court-mandated, it'll probably cost the same (hey, maybe even more!), it'll be buggier "due to the antitrust decision, we've had to rewrite a lot of code for this version of windows, most of which is untested. If you experience severe problems, you can fix them all by installing the latest version of IE").

Also, any decent programming person (OK, that probably leaves out most of the MS crowd) who doesn't have dreams of total control over the OS world will tell you, you don't integrate applications directly into your OS. You keep it all separate. OS integration is a BAD thing. Problems in IE cause problems in the OS. Security holes in the apps become security holes in the OS.

roehlstation
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03/04, 03:10pm | report spam | close Reply |
HA HA HA.....

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA

Like that would REALLY happen.

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA

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03/04, 03:51pm | report spam | close Reply |
April 1st?

Is it April 1st? I hope this does happen. I think that they should be forced to make each part of the OS a seperate OPTIONAL app, not something integrated in that causes billions in damanges when a script kiddie launches a buffer overflow or virus on ebay.

I'm all for our president, I like how the party is known to uphold citizen's rights and preserve our freedoms, and how the war is being fought, but the big business pushing them around needs to be stoped. Hopefully the government will see this. We need to write in to the judge and everyone else and tell them how damaging Windows can be, and that this time SEVERE action needs to be taken, even if that means microsoft is forced to re-release Windows 3.1. I don't care. I'm sick of Microsoft owning the government and the courts. We need options, and we need to destroy monopolies.

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03/04, 04:27pm | report spam | close Reply |
Show us your blood Bill !

Dear B$ll,

We all know that we can't kill you, neither your company or all the 's***' it has produced over the years....

But at least,
"You may bleed for a while !"

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tedgrigg
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03/04, 04:37pm | report spam | close Reply |
That's the point!

One has to ask why Microsoft would have to pull their latest OS? It is clear that their ways still violate the principles of the antitrust act. Other wise, why would they have to pull any of their products as a result of any court order relating to this case? They are still violating the law. That's why!

They are getting tangled up in their own underwear. What a bunch of hoods. I love Bush, but he is loosing my support as it relates to this case.

Dare I say it??? Could it be that Clinton really did something right by squashing this unlawful monopoly? And now the Republicans (I almost hate to admit it, but I am one of them) are letting these bugs multiply!!!

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03/04, 04:42pm | report spam | close Reply |
Don't Tease Us

This sound almost too good to be true.

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the Rebel
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03/04, 04:58pm | report spam | close Reply |
Presidency

I am tired of hearing all this c*** about the White House affecting the case against Microsoft. The White House does not control the judges in the courts and it is the judges who have failed us the most with Microsoft. Why are the courts even trying to find a "settlement" at this point. Microsoft has been found guilty multiple times; they have already appealled their case and they lost the appeal, but the sentence was overturned. That means that the only thing that the current judge needs to do is to announce a new sentence that the appeals court will accept; it should not matter if Microsoft likes it or not.

As for this stuff about the Clinton administration handling it better, what is that you all are saying was done? Clinton never once came out against Microsoft; the DOJ pursued the case because they HAD NO CHOICE. Nothing effective against Microsoft was done during the Clinton administration. Clinton was in the White House when the DOJ agreed to the totally lame 1996 anti-trust settlement with Microsoft.

Under the Bush administration it has been essentially the same. Bush has not said anything and the DOJ has continued as much as they HAD NO CHOICE. So far nothing effective has been done.

Unfortunately it does not matter who is in the White House; it is all up to the courts and unfortunately so far only one judge has had the balls to stand up and call a spade a spade and he got criticized for it.

Unfortunately the group that seems to have the most effect on the courts these days is the media and more often than not they seem to be pro-Microsoft. Maybe it is because they do not understand. Maybe it is because they like to report the fairy tale dire consequences of hurting Microsoft. Maybe they just like getting part of Microsoft's huge advertising budget. Regardless of why, the media makes the average American citizen think that the government is being mean to Microsoft and that just is not the truth.

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moonburn

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Why MS won't be punished

Microsoft is a strategic asset of the United States. Following the doctrine of "full-spectrum dominance" espoused by Sec. of Defense Rumsfeld, the policy of the US government is to dominate potential threats via military, covert, cultural, and economic means.

Microsoft is a key element of that strategy; Windows running not only most of the computers in the United States, but also the world.

Microsoft makes money from every country in the world (boosting the US economy at the long-term expense of other nations') and creates leverage with which the US government can influence (or intimidate) other countries and groups. Hampering Microsoft significantly would impair this strategic doctrine.

Microsoft has already shown it can disable copies of Windows that are not "activated", mass-disabling of all copies of Windows in a target nation via the Internet would be a potent threat to that nation's economy. "Security holes" are found all the time in Windows, demonstating that *planned* security holes could be used to eavesdrop or affect targeted PCs anywhere in the world. The fact that Windows' source code is privately owned and protected by trade secret laws and the Digital Millenium Copyright Act makes this, in some ways, a more secure "weapon" than if it were owned by the government.

Face it. The Bush administration will not allow MS to be seriously harmed by the ongoing anti-trust cases, for strategic as well as political reasons. All the talk about the motivations of MS' competitors and the threats to innovation are simply a smokescreen to mask the true value that Microsoft and Windows has to the government and its plans for "full sprectrum dominance."

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MacMan4Life
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03/04, 05:10pm | report spam | close Reply |
Just a note...

To the guys who says it was M$ competition made Steve Jobs produce OS X, i guess you don't remember NeXT computers that basically ran a premature version of OS X. That was back in 1988, well before Windows 95. Steve Jobs has always been an inovator and stong proponent for a Unix based operating system. He did so with the NeXT computer company that was bought by Apple in 1996. So how could it have been M$ that led to OS X?

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loudpedal
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03/04, 06:21pm | report spam | close Reply |
How's it feel gov?

So I'd like to know how the government likes being held hostage by the very people they're prosecuting. MS should be prosecuted for making a threat like that. Despite the funny guys on this post who think it would be great, there are a lot of businesses out there who depend on Windows (imagine no more bug or security fixes).

Now we all know MS wouldn't hand their competition business on a platter so they're obviously blowing smoke. It just underscores the point that MS is a monopoly that it would make a play like that. We need at least two (if not more) viable competitors who use interchangable technology. Apple is all for standards-based stuff. I couldn't agree more.

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testudo
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03/04, 06:42pm | report spam | close Reply |
Re: Presidency

While your point on the president not having control of the judges is correct, the president basically hired the guy running the DOJ, so there is influence there. He's just not supposed to come out and tell the DOJ "Don't prosecute" or "Settle" (since they're supposed to be an independent branch).

However, your point on the judges completely misses the mark. Judges are there to make a verdict. But they must do it based on evidence presented and current laws and statutes, as well as following the rules on how cases are tried. The judges have ruled, in several courts, that laws were broken (both in the original trial and in the appeals court, however the appeals court threw out the punishment, NOT the verdict, due to claims of partiality on the judge). In fact, I'm not sure any judge has really ruled in favor of MS on any of the actual proceedings. But they can�t just pass a baseless judgment. Otherwise, it�ll get thrown out in no time. They have to make sure they give all sides their say.

Secondly, the DOJ and 19 states are the plaintiffs in the case, MS is the defendant. Regardless of whether it�s this trial or just a simple case of shoplifting, both sides can get together and try to settle the case out of court. However, the settlement must be approved by the presiding judge (what�s happening now). The "court" is not trying to find a settlement, as you suggest. They�re overseeing one. (They would like it to be settled, though, as trying to come up with a punishment for an antitrust suit is whole lot harder than one for shoplifting). Since the settlement deal is on the table, it must be dealt with before the judge can make any decision on their own. And since the rules on antitrust trials say it has to be open for public comment, then more court discussions, it takes a while longer than settling that shoplifting case.

Also keep in mind there's still 9 states that aren't settling. This settlement may get rid of the Federal suit filed by the DOJ, but doesn't affect the other states who still want a lawsuit. The above article is talking about those 9 states and whether their lawsuit is valid, not about the settlement (and not being an expert on federal antitrust law, I have no idea whether what MS and the DOJ say is valid).

Finally, I'm not sure how the media affects the courts. It may affect juries, but this isn't in front of a jury. Judges tend to judge for life (unless they're termed, which many federal judges aren't, I don't believe), so its not like they need to be on the media's good side in order to get re-elected (unlike, say, a congressman or president). And it�s also not like judges take public opinion into account (unless its asked for, like in the open comment period on the settlement). The only way I can tell that the media has affected the outcome is that they published the first judge's anti-Microsoft opinions, raising the partiality question in the first place.

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testudo
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03/04, 06:50pm | report spam | close Reply |
Re: How's it feel

Despite the funny guys on this post who think it would be great, there are a lot of businesses out there who depend on Windows

Damn, I didn't even think about them. If Windows were pulled, think of all those people who spent their time and money to get MSCE certified. And the people who certify them. Then Symantec and Network Associates would start laying people off, because without windows, you have far fewer viruses to worry about. Then think of all the network and security companies that would have far fewer holes to "fix" for their customers.

And lets not forget all those wonderful, hard-working IT managers at all the big companies that have huge power, money, and staff, all based around the fact that PCs require that much effort to keep up and running. They might have to switch to Macs, and end up losing 98 of the 100 people they have under them (since we all know its easier keeping a mac up and running than a PC!).

But most of all, what about poor John Dvorak? How can he keep his job of slamming the Mac and praising the wintel PC when the wintel PC exists no more. Come on, have you seen pictures of this guy. He looks like he likes to eat. A lot! He needs the money. Can you imagine a rampaging John Dvorak looking for food?!?!?

I think we need to rethink this whole thing now.

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the Rebel
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03/04, 06:54pm | report spam | close Reply |
If MS cancelled Windows..

Even if Microsoft went through with it and cancelled Windows and pulled it from the market, they can not take Windows away from the people who have already bought it and have it installed. So pulling Windows from the market is not going to hurt the businesses that use Windows; they can just go right on using it the same way that they have been. However, it could be devastating to computer manufacturers and retail outlets who sell PCs with Windows pre-installed.

Regardless, it is not going to happen because Microsoft can not afford to follow through with the threat. I do not care how many billions they have, if they pulled Windows off the market, their stock would hit a 15 year low, they would lose licensing agreements left and right, MS Office XP sales would come to a halt, and many other revenue sources would shrivel. If they seriously did not plan to even try to revise Windows to meet the court decision then there would be huge layoffs. Microsoft would not be destroyed but they would be greatly diminished. Bill Gates would never go out like that. He may not have as big of an ego as Steve Jobs, but Bill's is plenty big too.

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the Rebel
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03/04, 07:11pm | report spam | close Reply |
Impartial judge?

The whole thing about the previous judge being impartial is absurd. After the case was over, he made comments about how Microsoft needed to be stopped.

Duh!! That was the whole point of the case.

After having all the evidence presented to him, he knew what all Microsoft had done and he understood it. Thus he knew Microsoft deserved to be punished and that it should not be something substantial.

Based on that, the media crucified him as being impartial.

As for the media influencing other judges, they can do a lot - especially in regards to something like this.

First of all, many judges do not know enough about the computer industry to really understand what negative things Microsoft has been doing for the past 20 years. When presented both sides of the case, they may not know who is telling the truth. If the media is promoting propaganda saying that the case against Microsoft is baseless, that consumers support Microsoft, that it is all a front for Microsoft's competitors, that it would destroy the American economy, etc, the judges do not necessarily realize that that is all hogwash.

Judges that are appointed for life obviously are not concerned about getting election votes, but they do care about their legacy and how the history books will remember them. If the media can publicly insult and ridicule a judge for alledged impartiality like they did last year, what judge is not going to be considering how the media will view the judgements that they make?

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the Rebel
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03/04, 07:21pm | report spam | close Reply |
Settlement issue

The court is indeed trying to find a settlement

The judge is promoting a settlement so that she can avoid making a judgement of her own. The case was handed to her with the verdict already finalized. Her only responsibility is to give the sentence. The settlement deal that is on the table has not been accepted. There is no legal reason why the judge can not just say that the settlement process is taking too long and go ahead and make a judgement. Instead though, she gave a deadline for them to reach a settlement and then when they were unable to reach a settlement by that deadline, she initiated more hearings. If she was not trying to find a settlement, then she would have made her judgement when MS, the DOJ, and the states failed to meet the deadline.

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03/04, 09:31pm | report spam | close Reply |
One

could only hope

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03/05, 07:39am | report spam | close Reply |
FUD again

Microsoft has lived on FUD and hype since day one. But at one time Big Blue was the "Bad Guy" to some with its dominance. IBM promised but didn't always deliver either, and it was a "national security and resource." no one ever lost a job recommending IBM and in some circles, IT, "IBM or IBM compatible" where the mantra.

I just wish all the FUD from some industry papers had pushed OS/2. It's time to break up M$. If the government would please just pull Windows OS and future products from its approved buying list. The costs associated with upgrades, WORMs, security, support, crashes, bad html and the next VBS Outlook virus.

Greed + Arrogance equalled only by Enron. Sad.

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03/05, 07:46am | report spam | close Reply |
Great Quote from Ballmer

"That's the way good software gets designed. So if you pull out a piece it won't run," Ballmer said.

This is flippin' unbelievable. As a software engineer from Carnegie Mellon University, this statement is c***. Software is not designed that way unless your microsnot and want to keep your monopoly. Good software design means abstracting the software to keep the inner workings of each component hidden. it's just the interfaces to the inner workings that are exposed.

The fact that M$ CAN REPLACE Internet explorer with ANY OTHER BROWSER in all of their operating systems goes untold. Why? might you ask. Internet browser is all the same function... displaying data. the HTML rendering engine is does exactly the same thing. HTML in Formatted text/graphics out. So again, why can't M$ replace IE? because they don't want to.

How neat would it be if you could swap out IE for Opera in Windows? They'd never let it happen.

Brad Anderson
http://homepage.mac.com/javalizard/twisted.html

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Antitrust sanctions could kill Windows

updated 12:35 pm EST, Mon March 4, 2002

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bull hookey

PLEASE PLEASE

PULL WINDOWS OFF MARKET?

ooooo

We need Windows

Oh darn!

good

Call their bluff

And this would be bad?

This is a problem?

Fairy tales

The Only Thing to do

Chicken

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Melodrama Bla Bla Bla

odd

Important

ah man

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What a line of c***

Kill Windows

You want proof?

fear, uncertainty, doubt

Monopoly? Nooo....

Gates = Crybaby

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What's the problem?

HA HA HA.....

April 1st?

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Don't Tease Us

Presidency

Why MS won't be punished

Just a note...

How's it feel gov?

Re: Presidency

Re: How's it feel

If MS cancelled Windows..

Impartial judge?

Settlement issue

One

FUD again

Great Quote from Ballmer

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