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http://www.macnn.com/articles/01/11/14/programmer.steps/

Programmer steps down from fink project

updated 10:30 pm EST, Wed November 14, 2001

 
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MacNN reader Christopher Howard writes about the resignation of Christoph Pfisterer from the fink project, in part due to problems with MacGIMP, OpenOSX, forked.net and Tenon: "This is a huge blow to the MacOS X community. It shows how Mac users as a whole do not understand the OpenSource way of computing. The fink project was created and maintained as a service to the Darwin community. Unfortunately many Mac users picked up this program without an understanding of the command line, the basics of a UNIX system, and GPL requirements." The project, however, is expected to continue, as many have noted that it has gained momentum over the past few months. [updated]


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  1. ddukes

    Junior Member

    Joined: Aug 2000

    0
    11/14, 10:48pm | report spam | Reply |

    Excuse me Christopher....

    But wasn't that a given that most Mac people don't have the understanding of the command line? Tell us you had to know this before embarking on the Fink project.

    Anyways, this is a huge blow since I am a frequent user of Fink and know quite a few others too.

  1. rpkrajewski

    Joined:

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    11/14, 11:23pm | report spam | Reply | delete

    Too bad

    but fink was somewhat disappointing. Not because it didn't work, but because it didn't really offer any functionality above and beyond the BSD port or RedHat package management systems. Time would be better spent on getting OpenPackages (http://www.openpackages.org/) to work on Darwin and OS X. In particular, it would be cool to get a system that actually used version information inside executables and libraries instead of blindly downloading, compiling, and overwriting everything in sight. Also, fink was source-based, which is cool, but even a hacker like myself wouldn't mind a download precompiled pieces. Some things, like X window managers, take a long time to compile !

  1. bbum

    Fresh-Faced Recruit

    Joined: Nov 2001

    0
    11/14, 11:35pm | report spam | Reply |

    It isn't that simple

    I have worked with and contributed to the Fink project for quite some time now. Some clarifications:

    (1) Fink offers a binary distribution and has done so for some time. It is also easy to build your own binary distribution, if you need to build things differently than the binary packages already offered.

    (2) The source distribution allowed you to control *exactly* where it is installed.

    (3) It does *not* overwrite stuff at random; it uses the debian package manager underneath. It manages everything from your configruation through to versioning.

    (4) The fink project is not dead simply because Christoph left. The reasons for his leaving are his own and are not nearly as clear cut as the posting would imply-- Christoph contributed considerably to the problems that lead to his resignation.

    (5) It isn't as simple as porting RPM, straight DPKG, the BSD ports system, etc... you do *not* want to overwrite components installed by the system. That is hard to do with existing systems. Fink does a *very good* job of avoiding that problem.

    Go read the slashdot forum postings regarding WHY Christoph quit and the realities of Open Source. It is both interesting and pertinent.

    Then, read the tremendous documentation-- one of Christoph's many excellent contributions (the value of his technical achievements are incredible-- some of the interactions on the mailing list were less than stellar)-- at

  1. bbum

    Fresh-Faced Recruit

    Joined: Nov 2001

    0
    11/14, 11:36pm | report spam | Reply |

    .... at ....

    http://Fink.sourceforge.net

    (macnn's posting software cut off the URL... it says I can use the tag, but it seemed to have cut it entirely. )

  1. geezer

    Fresh-Faced Recruit

    Joined: Sep 2001

    0
    11/14, 11:52pm | report spam | Reply |

    just relax...

    Fink ain't dead and will carry on... as one poster mentioned previously.

  1. cycy

    Fresh-Faced Recruit

    Joined: Nov 2001

    0
    11/15, 12:09am | report spam | Reply |

    command line?

    If it needs a command line, then I'm not so sure I need it. I was a Unix consultant for a long time before I even touched a Mac. Now I don't really want to s**** with that c*** if I don't want. I certainly don't think average users should have to.

    The strength of Unix and it's programming community is all in the internals. Unix interfaces have typically been arcane, ugly, or both. That's why the union of Mac and Unix is so nice. Strong Unix internals together with a pretty strong UI (the Nexties that showed up are still pretty clueless about some things, I think... pictures of internal disc drives for hd icons is a small bit of proof that they need to place some catch up with the old Apple teams).

    When doing Unix ports, the interfaces for these programmes need to also be updated to use the standard interface. The CLI is best left to programmers. (I even saw fairly sophisticated users reall s**** things up in that interface).

  1. Joined:

    0
    11/15, 03:32am | report spam | Reply | delete

    GUI and integration

    It would be very nice if Fink gained a GUI to manage the downloads, etc. (besides the terminal, of course) - and it would be interesting if Apple and Fink could eventually collaborate in order to integrate the package management (download, install, update, etc.) tools directly in Mac OS X, thus also giving a *great* reward to the Fink community's excellent work! :-)

  1. \0

    Joined:

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    11/15, 04:05am | report spam | Reply | delete

    Fink lives on!

    But wasn't that a given that most Mac people don't have the understanding of the command line?

    Yes, it is a given that Mac people don't have the understanding of the command line - fink was not created for those users. It was created to bring UNIX software to Darwin and to allow casual Darwin users to install and run these ports. Most mac users are not casual Darwin users. They are users who expect and demand software that does not require a manual, easy to install and configure, have good customer support and contain a high degree of polish. No CLI application can meet these requirements. Therefore fink is a program that Mac users should use only when they are ready to take the leap into a strange ne^H^Hold world of UNIX.

    It would be very nice if Fink gained a GUI to manage the downloads, etc.

    Until someone creates an aqua interface for a majority of the packages, this would be a pointless feature. If the compiled tools can only be run in the CLI what is the need of this. If a GUI was added to fink too early, it would cause only more user confusion/misunderstanding in the Mac community. On that note: how many of you out there are willing to build aqua wrappers and make aqua UNIX tools a reality?

    The issues that I have stated are nothing that cannot be solved with education and a willingness to lern. MacOS X is very different beast and it will take time for the communtiy to get used to the change. I believe the most difficult will be the OSS mentality of "if it is broken, fix it yourself and upstream".

    Also I belive that the Average mac user should never have to open Terminal .app or modify configuration files/scripts - but the best of UNIX should be availible to them in aqua command line tool wrappers.

    While I do not entirely support Pfisterer's attitude, I believe that his resignation makes a statement that will be to the benifit of OSS on MacOS X. I hope he continues to contribute to the project

    I am glad MacNN did not take my rant out of context.

    -Christopher Howard

  1. macnerd

    Junior Member

    Joined: Apr 2000

    0
    11/15, 04:14am | report spam | Reply |

    Ridiculous

    "It shows how Mac users as a whole do not understand the OpenSource way of computing"

    What an insult! So a small number of people do something you feel is inappropriate or incorrect, and all of a sudden an entire multi-million strong community drawn from thousands of diverse areas "do not understand the OpenSource way of computing"?

  1. Joined:

    0
    11/15, 07:17am | report spam | Reply | delete

    bmah

    "It shows how Mac users as a whole do not understand the OpenSource way of computing"

    ""What an insult! So a small number of people do something you feel is inappropriate or incorrect, and all of a sudden an entire multi-million strong community drawn from thousands of diverse areas "do not understand the OpenSource way of computing"?""

    No he's right, most mac users doesn't even know what's GPL. Hpefully i am not one of theses, and i really like fink, for it provides me fast patches (i don't have the time to patch what i want myself), and nicely done (apt apt apt =)
    Plus they are cool:)
    what's against this ?
    The horrible forked osx website, with kinda "stolen" rights, and the "buisness of the opensource" of openosx.

    Guess some ppl will go deface them both in few pack of weeks.=D

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