As was noted above, it's not just camcorder owners that this affects. How many of us have Firewire-only audio interfaces? Nearly every MOTU, Presonus, M-Audio, and Tascam interface is FW based. Having to step up to a MB Pro just to get FW is really a shame.

I have been waiting for these new macbooks to upgrade my sisters' family G4 iBook, and will be giving my niece my old firewire-based camcorder with it. So today I ordered a refurbed Macbook Pro from Apple. Wish it could have been a new Macbook, though.

I have been waiting for these new macbooks to upgrade my sisters' family G4 iBook, and will be giving my niece my old firewire-based camcorder with it. So today I ordered a refurbed Macbook Pro from Apple. Wish it could have been a new Macbook, though.

http://www.techmessenger.com/SATAPro-TA-S12T-and-TB-S12T-2-5-Mobile-Enclosures-070912003.html

but it still wouldn't solve the mobile adapter requirements for many peripherals such as drives over 120GB...

I think Jobs and many others are confusing USB with HDMI...

The new prosumer cams have firewire and HDMI for video transfer... the USB is for photos off the memory card only...

Or he's talking about those crappy "HD" cams with video so over-compressed all it's good for is youtube..

Sad.

You don't seem to know what you're talking about.

Tapeless camcorders today outnumber tape-based ones by at least 9:1. There are SD and HD models, with HD starting well below $500. SD models use MPEG2 for compression, while HD ones have HDV or AVCHD. According to extensive tests and reviews at Camcorderinfo.com, AVCHD has definitely arrived. Image quality on these is dramatically better than any consumer or prosumer MiniDV (i.e. tape-based, with FireWire) SD camcorder.

SJ is not talking about 'Prosumer' ($1,500 ) models; he is talking about sub- $1,000 ones, which DON'T use tapes (or FW) to capture and transfer video.

And just where would I put that "If you really need FW 400 go out and buy a FW 800 to 400 adapter, $12 on amazon." on a MacBook that has no FW at all?

USB 2.0 External Drives are useless for video editing.

FW drives are far superior due to the asynchronous transfer.

If you purchase a new MacBook and a new USB video camera, the cost is approximately the same as going out and purchasing a new MacBook Pro. If you want to use your old equipment you are better off just ponying up the extra money for the MacBook Pro.

Eventually you will end up purchasing a new video camera and more than likely it will be USB.

The question I have is, if you currently have a FireWire based video camera, you have a MacBook/Pro and it works for you why are you looking to replace you laptop? Do you need the new laptop or do you want it just because its the latest and greatest?

If you have saved up the money for a new MacBook, will it kill you to hold off awhile longer until you have the money put back for the MacBook Pro? Is this an impulse purchase or part of your annual budget?

I'm going to miss firewire just as much as the next person, except, unfortunately, the next person has no idea what the h*** firewire is.

It's unfortunate, but it's the nature of our reality. If I were to ask the average person who enters the Apple Store I work at what firewire is, the majority or more would look at me like I'm crazy.

A quick glance at an online store like newegg shows this:
Of ~66 models that are listed under "Camcorders" all but 13 are listed as using flash, memory, or harddrive was the media used, and USB 2 as it's main transfer technology.

That means that only 13 or so mini-dv (many being pro models) exist on their site. This also means that even fewer, if any, mini-dv camcorders remain in retail stores simply because they don't have the space to hold them. It's sad, but it's true.

I won't be getting a MacBook because my GL-2 hasn't died yet(knock on wood), but for consumers looking for a consumer portable, the MacBook is even more of an option. (Now that it's more beautiful, new graphics etc)

1. Buy the least expensive MacBook. It HAS firewire.
   
   2. Buy the new MacBook Pro
   
   3. Buy refurb MacBook Pro
   
   4. Write to apple.com/feedback and hope enough people share your interest

Well, I don't know if this is the vocal minority or if this is really as big of an issue as it seems based on the amount of replies to this issue on various BBs.

While AI wrote up a bit more on possible reasons for this - it being a dying standard and really not used by consumers - indicating that Apple has often had a good sense of things to come technology-wise, such as USB only on the 1998 iMac, but I think Apple may have jumped the gun by a few years on this. Apple customers know and what Firewire, switches, probably don't know what it is. We'll have to wait and see until MWSF to see if Apple corrects this.

I work in the film industry and have converted most of my fellow workers to Apple macbooks, but we all use firewire for many reasons, a 15" Pro is too big and heavy to lug around all day, your decision has put us all behind the 8 ball, why did you not do a survey before you did this backwood step, even at $2600 in Australia we would have still updated, ripping us off we can handle, but changing hardware mid stream was a bad move, Even Apple can not afford to push away its loyal followers, BAD Move Mr Jobs

The Canon HV30, which was just released fairly recently, only transfers video over FireWire. And it's a very popular HD camcorder.

The new MBP weighs in at 2.49 kilos the old MB (white/black ploycarb) weighs in at 2.27 kilos. That's a difference of .22 kilos, or .5 lbs.

Maybe you and your fellow workers need to go to the gym and build up some muscles.

The old MB is 2,028.8 cubic cm, and the new MBP is 2,184.3 cubic cm. That's a difference of 155.5 cubic cm.

Old MB 2.75 cm High
New MBP 2.41 cm High
New MBP .34 cm less

Old MB 32.5 cm wide
New MBP 36.4 cm wide
New MBP 4.1 cm more

Old MB 22.7 cm deep
New MBP 24.9 cm deep
New MBP 2.2 cm more

adapter will not work for Express Card FW adapters, as it uses USB2.0 mode of the Express Card.

this is all a mountain out of a mole hill, but it does seem like a mountain out of a foot hill.

The difference in physical size doesn't seem like a barrier that isn't outweighed (heh!) by additional performance and continued support of "legacy" (ewww. I can't believe i just used that annoying corporate buzz word) add-ons, unless of course you've invested heavily in custom fitted travel cases...

The weight issue really is not an issue when looking at the numbers posted previously.

Irritating? Certainly. A show stopper? not so much.

MacNN really needs to have a way to distinguish editorials from news articles. This article is really inappropriate unless it were specifically labeled an editorial - clearly the author is upset.

Why would I want a BIGGER portable as an UPGRADE? Isn't the idea of PORTABLE to be SMALL? My $4000 Sony 3 chip camcorder uses firewire- as does the $1600 HD that attaches to it.
But- now, I can't have a small portable Apple computer to edit on, transfer video on etc. unless I buy last years model.
Plus- Firewire drives have proven to be faster, more reliable than USB 2.
Bring back the 12" and make it a pro.
I'll buy one instantly- even if it costs as much as that stupid MacBook Air.

I worked for Apple Education when the Blue & White G3 was introduced. In the year prior to that I had sold many beige G3s with the "Wings" (A/V) card. Of course, that required analog camcorders (which were all the rage then). The B&W unit had FireWire and no analog A/V in/out. So all of my customers, whom I had convinced to buy camcorders and "do video" on their new A/V Macs now had no reason to buy the B&W because they had already spent many hundreds on their camcorders and were not going to spend $1000 for a FireWire DV camcorder (which was the going price at that time). We (the Apple Education account execs) were stuck for three months with nothing to sell until ATI and Avid managed to get Apple an analog solution for the B&W. (We forced Steve to do this, BTW, which says something about how upset we were.)

This (no FireWire in the MacBook) is exactly the same situation; Steve's ahead of the curve. However, there is one major flaw in Steve's logic this time: The footage from HD camcorders isn't playable nor editable (practically speaking) on anything less than the top of the line MacPro (if even then). We'll have to wait until Steve convinces the camcorder mfr's to standardize on an H264 codec that actually works on the Mac -and- (more importantly) Macs include the appropriate H264 hardware-based codec to speed up working with HD footage.

What am I doing? I'll stick with SD camcorders for now (a Samsung MX20 is my Xmas present to myself).

...investment in FW backup drives, to use with Time Machine.

Chant together, folks:

We want FireWire!
We want FireWire!
We want FireWire!

...investment in FW backup drives, to use with Time Machine?

Ugh.

Chant together, folks:

We want FireWire!
We want FireWire!
We want FireWire!

Why does Apple always give you a little a possible for much as possible. I love the products and the OS but this my way or highway business really has to stop. What do they want?

FireWire is MORE than video cameras or pro DSLRs.

It's about hard drives.
Fast file transfers and backups.
Time Machine not choking your system when it kicks in.
FireWire Target Disk mode and system maintenance.
Cloning hard drives.
Pro Audio Gear.

FireWire is superior to USB. USB is adequate for input devices and not much else.

11211... "USB is a much better technology than Firewire."

In what world might that be?

ONE example:

You have USB2 hub with several USB2 devices connected to it.
Then you connect a USB 1.1 device to the same hub. ALL the devices in that USB chain will slow down to USB 1.1 speeds.

Gee, I call that superior!

Still, why take out FW? How much space & cost are we talking about here?

Just leave the damn FW in there for any & every one who has a need. Gosh knows, parallel print ports were on PC laptops for years after that became obsolete.

How hard would it have been to leave well enough alone?!

I don't recommend it without firewire either...

By the way (to the author of this article), there is, "to, two and too."

Sorry, just my peeve.

"You have USB2 hub with several USB2 devices connected to it.
Then you connect a USB 1.1 device to the same hub. ALL the devices in that USB chain will slow down to USB 1.1 speeds."

Is this true? This explains a LOT of issues I've been having with USB perhiperals.

In this day and age of technology. One should not be regressing to things of older technology and things that 1 company thinks that people will need or want.

I for one will not be buying a new MB or Pro line anytime soon. For simple reasons.

1. Lack of Firewire support. Not only have they taken away the 400 port but they really dont explain anywhere in depth how they plan to support peoples existing Firewire devices. Whether cameras or hdrives ect.

2. Tdisk mode gone. Well this just plain sucks my a$%. I work in an Apple Service evironment where a lot of the time Im constantly transferring data over to peoples new computers. This baffles me.

3. Uniform body?....um.....who cares? yes the design looks nice and perhaps will be easier to service. But id rather have a difficult machine to work on with all my peripherals. Then ease of access to certain parts.

In this market Apple really has set the standards. Well not so in this case in my humble and personal opinion.

Apple...you Fail.

Yes, It's a fact.

USB 1 devices will slow EVERY device connected to the same USB bus to USB 1 speeds. This is a dirty little secret that USB proponents fail to mention.

USB is good for some things, like input devices. FireWire for others. They are complimentary technologies.

Here are some interesting FireWire vs. USB articles:

http://www.qimaging.com/support/kb/whitepapers/firewireusbtechnote.pdf

I've even found this one quoted on USB sites!
http://www.firewire-1394.com/firewire-vs-usb.htm

http://www.technibble.com/firewire-vs-usb/



BTW, I went to the Fifth Avenue Apple Store today to check out the new MacBook Pros. They are gorgeous machines! Absolutely STUNNING. Light. Feels smaller than the "old' MBP, like mine. Apple has raised the bar AGAIN for ALL other computers, laptop OR desktop! EXCEPT for the glossy screens. UGH.

HUGE lines. I've never seen the store so full. You could barely move. Had to wait to play with the MBP!

one step back… this is a typical example of a Job's faux pas, we all make them and he has many times to the detriment of the product, think no two button mouse available or even mentioned as an option until 2006 even when the operating system automatically recognized one since System 8.5 in 1996! The cost of putting it in would have been stupidly low and easily justified if the price went up $50. or so. The real problem is that the economy was jamming back in the days of his premature prescience and folks did indeed fairly quickly move up and replaced everything they needed to, I'm afraid the consumer environment is poised to adopt a new outlook on arbitrary spending and dumping existing operational equipment will not be an option for ANY sized company. Foot in the mouth and wag of the finger to Mr. Jobs on this one…

Oh, this is Jobs and Apple being ahead of the curve. Remember how they dropped the floppy drive? Then everyone else did (like 10 years later, because, for some reason, everyone else still saw a use and demand for it)?

Apple dumped Serial connectors with the iMac. All went to USB! Sure, there were tons of existing customers with tons of existing serial hardware that were left out in the cold.
But that doesn't stop people now proclaiming what a genius move it was then.

Sure, the "look how forward thinking Apple was!" crowd brings these up. But they always seem to minimalize or ignore the install base.

And, apparently, Steve has been listening to this crowd too much. Maybe he's trying to prove he can predict the future, and still minimalizing the installed base.

And when Firewire disappears in five years, the forward-thinking crowers will be going "See, Steve was right! Firewire is dead, he was ahead of the curve!"

So, that's why.

Either that, or Steve just wants the lame-asses who buy 12-inch MacBooks for "pro" features like Firewire (it being defined by Apple that Firewire is only needed by "pros") now should buy the Pro laptops.

I can't wait for Apple to get out of their meager market share, bypass their financial problems, and finally be able to have some money in the bank where they could start to take chances.

Like, I don't know, make a tower that costs around $1200.

Or a 12" pro laptop (one with a ExpressCard slot would just satisfy the "I need firewire" crowd, as they can add a card for that), or 15" consumer models (you know, the ones that are pretty standard on the PC side of things).

Or just expanding their product lines, rather than worrying about how one product (say, the 12" macbook) is cannabalizing another line (say, the 15" MBP) and changing one to take out the competition.

Man, one day, maybe if Apple can get past 5 percent market share, we could see a time where we can get real customization options like Dell has, not just "Add memory or change the harddrive". Or they can expand the market lines.

h***, I know of a lot of people who wish Apple would do something, ANYTHING, decent to the mini! But that won't happen anytime soon, as if they made it any better, it might take away sales from the iMac. Can't have that.

Just another reason to pick up a new "old" MBP. I wish I could get a 13" MBP, but until Apple pulls their head out of their A$Set I'm gonna keep my 1.83 MBP. Does everything I need.

Everyone keeps talking about FW and their peripherals, but some of us rely on FW

If you bought a DV consumer-grade ($500 or lower) camcorder in the last year or two, you're using USB. If you bought a Pro DV camera, you're using FireWire.

So, quit being cheap and just get the MBP, buy a new(er) Camcorder, or have a nice tall glass of STFU and get over it.

Plus, who the heck wants to edit video on a 13" screen??? That's what a MBP, iMac, or MacPro are for!

(written on a 13" last-gen BlackBook)

If you bought a DV consumer-grade ($500 or lower) camcorder in the last year or two, you're using USB. If you bought a Pro DV camera, you're using FireWire.

So, quit being cheap and just get the MBP, buy a new(er) Camcorder, or have a nice tall glass of STFU and get over it.

Plus, who the heck wants to edit video on a 13" screen??? That's what a MBP, iMac, or MacPro are for!

(written on a 13" last-gen BlackBook)

I purchased the new MacBook to replace my BlackBook of which I handed over to an Apple Genius at the time of purchase to transfer all my data over. My lunch hadn't even completed before Apple called to say the job had been done and both machines were ready for pickup. I never used the Firewire connection except for this original transfer. I rely on my Mac Pro with its built in Firewire ports to transfer video or other Firewire needs. I don't understand why anyone would want to try and use the MacBook to capture video or edit it. If you need Firewire for any reason then buy the MacBook Pro (which is what I would have done if I had a continual use for it - and few of us do).

"You have USB2 hub with several USB2 devices connected to it.
Then you connect a USB 1.1 device to the same hub. ALL the devices in that USB chain will slow down to USB 1.1 speeds. "

I love FW as much as the next guy but. You could say the same to FW 800 and FW 400.

Except 'slowing' down to firewire 400 from 800 is a still a ton faster than USB 2.0 to 1.1.

And last I checked, this was complaining about the MacBook, which never had Firewire 800.

I just love how some people want to dictate how others should spend their money, or how they should work or use their tools.

And you can tell JuanGuapo has drunk the Kool-Aid of steve's, since this is exactly the reason the FW 400 port has left the MacBook. It wasn't about money, or lack of use, or losing to USB, or no space on the mobo.

It is ALL about Apple trying to force people to buy the computers they don't need, by removing any aspects of their use from the low-end. Only Apple can get away with removing capabilities and calling it 'better'. What is amazing is how many people aren't just sucking it up and saying "Brilliant!". Maybe the RFD has been weakened.

It is not acceptable to pull these connectors from a line of portable computers. My older stuff does not have usb2 so how am i supposed to back files up? Useless right when i thought they got how to de-castrate the entry level portables.

is also being developed!

Thye're [Apple] making a huge mistake phasing out FW. I have in the past few years gone out of my way to hunt down FW connected devices and avoided USB. I have a 160GB USB 2.0 portable drive someone gave me I have tried to use it here and there.

Problems that arise:

- Very slow transfer times when moving large numbers of files that add up to a large size - example a Folder containing 5000 files that add up to 3GB. Whether this is via backup or simple transfer to portability etc..

I can move the exact same amount across FW 400 in about 1/5 to 1/10 of the USB transfer time here.

- If I have a Disk Image - DMG File - that is ±6GB - software installer - Apple's own installers get this big or larger - my USB 2.0 drive will not allow the full transfer to complete. It throws up some error and dies. I send the same large file across a FW connecction and it doesn't even think twice about it. No problems.

The reason why the mainstream had dropped FW support is that they had to pay a stipend to Apple for every port on every device that they made. USB is open to all.

Howver in recent times I have seen more and more W ports on PCs everyewhere. Mostly the 4-pin device connections but even more lately the 6-pin and FW800 9-pin connecctions.

I do honestly think Apple is jumping the gun here. And having no FW on it's low-end machine and only FW on it's high-end machines is wrong.

Additionally there has been a resurgence lately of FW external drives. Both Western Digital and Seagate have put out Mac specific FW portable Pocket sized drives in the past few weeks. I haven't seen these on shelves in nearly 8 years. Up until this month I had to go online and dig and hunt around for one from some obscure company.

Every one should complain directly to Apple if they want it back and enough people b**** Apple will pay attention.

from his responded, seem to me like he didn't care. If you have DV camcorder, he suggested you to buy HD camcorder to use with MacBook or buy MacBook Pro instead. If you have firewire audio interface, he don't care, you have to buy MacBook Pro. If you have Firewire external hard drive, buy USB one which inferior in performance. So, sorry poor people, Apple is not the product for you. I think they know about this that people will stick with them, whatever they did to us, will not go back to use PC because it not a better alternative, in term of OS(Windows). So, Apple treat their loyal customer like s***. Always, force us to buy more expensive product.