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MacNN News

http://www.macnn.com/articles/08/01/11/8800gt.not.for.old.pros/

Apple sends mixed messages about 8800 GT

updated 12:55 am EST, Fri January 11, 2008

8800GT: not for 'old Pros'

Owners of the previous revision Mac Pros may be out of luck if they wish to upgrade to the new Nvidia 8800 GT card that is available to the new towers. Several threads in Apple�s forums [1|2|3] indicate mixed impressions, even when users contacted Apple directly; the US representatives were adamant that the card would not function on an older Mac Pro, while Apple UK employees said the card would. Users have presented research that shows the cards should be backwards compatible, some are so confident in their beliefs that they ordered an upgrade kit without waiting for official confirmation.

Bare Feats owner Rob-ART mentions that he has spoken with both Apple about the issue, and they assured him that the card would not function due to a firmware incompatibility. Several Blizzard employees dismally confirmed those findings, since they were eager to upgrade their Mac Pros with the new graphics card.

The closest answer users can find is a vague statement in a support topic that mentions various cards from the power-user lineup, and notes �All of these cards are only compatible with the family of computers with which they shipped.�

The previously mentioned upgrade kit does not list requirements on its product page in the online store, merely identifying it as �NVIDIA GeForce 8800 GT Graphics Upgrade Kit for Mac Pro�. Many high-end users and gamers that have purchased the earlier model Mac Pro are upset about the lack of graphics card upgrades, expressing feelings of abandonment by Apple.

by MacNN Staff

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TAGS :

peripherals, graphics, upgrades/storage, NVIDIA, Mac Pro, 8800 GT, Apple

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Comments

adrian_milliner
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Jun 2005

0

01/11, 01:38am | report spam | close Reply |
what's the point?

apart from windows games via bootcamp, why would you want to upgrade the graphics card to the 8800gt?

and surely, no serious gamer would be using a macpro that that purpose?

howiethemacguy
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Sep 2007

0

01/11, 01:43am | report spam | close Reply |
Damn gamers!

They would b**** if they had a graphics card with 1 terabyte of memory and ran 1000 times as fast as anything we have on the market today. They're never satisfied.

xedgelockx
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Jun 2004

0

01/11, 02:19am | report spam | close Reply |
Not a "gamer" issue...

I resent that this is being characterized as an issue that only effects over-demanding gamers with unrealistic performance expectations.

I had to replace my failing Power Mac this last December (2007) with a brand new Mac Pro. I did not have the luxury of waiting until MacWorld. Now, my computer that is literally weeks old is obsolete because Apple refuses/neglected to issue a firmware update.

Guest
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Nov 1999

0

01/11, 02:58am | report spam | close Reply |
poor xedgelockx

"my expensive computer is obsolete" boo frackin hoo

csimon2
Junior Member

Joined: Aug 2000

0

01/11, 03:15am | report spam | close Reply |
Re: boo frackin hoo

I agree, it seems people really do just want to b**** about nothing. What? You just bought a Mac Pro and now it is obsolete because the newest models decided to move to a new PCIe standard? Certainly, that does suck, but it has in no way turned your still new mac into a paperweight by any stretch of the imagination.

And if you are real gamer, then I have even less empathy for you because surely you have heard of the mac elite website by now, and if not then shame on you. Apple has consistently over the course of its history been the worst hw and sw vendor to support gaming on its systems. They, along with ATi (terrible supply problems) and nVidia (still no 3rd party, neh even 1st party releases under their own brand after all these years) have fostered the need for even the most casual of gamers to resort to converting PC cards to Mac versions. So stop your whining, buy a PC GPU, and convert it for the mac and be happy! The 8800 is bound to be supported through this method in just a matter of time.

http://themacelite.wikidot.com/

petsounds
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Apr 2007

0

01/11, 03:36am | report spam | close Reply |
disappointed

I am disappointed at the elitist comments here. It reflects poorly on the Mac community.

There is nothing wrong with gamers, or wanting to use a Mac Pro for gaming. It's certainly a better value than the equivalent PC system. In some cases PC games run faster under Boot Camp than they do natively under Windows boxes.

Apple needs to start being more flexible with their component upgrades. This issue is not just about gamers, but about giving pro users the choice and options to do what's best for their needs, not to lock out customers because they want to force people to upgrade to new machines. That represents a bad customer relationship.

Leuey
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Jun 2007

0

01/11, 03:58am | report spam | close Reply |
listen up idiots

You guys are complete idiots. The MacPro is just that - a **PRO** computer. Production companies (like mine) that have a bunch of Mac Pro's (are game companies like Blizzard that use Macs) need fast graphics cards for work. The previous crop of Mac Pro's are saddled with cards (like the ATI 1900XT) which perform far worse in **professional** apps like Maya, Modo, and Motion. It is not unreasonable to expect to be able to upgrade the freaking graphics card in a **Professional** computer. It's a freaking snap to do it on the PC.

Here's the problem with Apple:

1. They were way behind on graphics hardware, the main reason for a bunch of people to buy a new Mac Pro is the 8800 - THAT'S IT! The CPU is not that much faster than the old 8-core. Now we all know NVidia will release 98xx series cards in a couple of months and Apple won't bother to upgrade for another 1.5 years (!).

2. Apple OpenGL sucks compared to OpenGL on XP. XP machines (read a MacPro booted in XP via bootcamp) is WAY faster in heavy duty 3D apps than OS X. So a faster card to necessary to pick up the slack from *crappy* drivers.

3. Why not just buy a PC you ask? FCP Studio isn't available on XP, I (like many others) prefer OSX - which is why I switched my studio over. It's now seeming like that was maybe a bad idea.

Let me put it to you this way - if you're trying push around several million polys on your screen with your 3D app you need the fastest card you can get. The Quadro isn't faster - it only has more memory (for 5x the price). The 8800 is as good as it gets - it's the **only** reasonable card for many **Pro's** and it's a huge disappointment that Apple is unable to get it to work with a machine a few months old. It's pathetic.

For those of you who think it's gamers - let me reiterate, you're idiots. *Gamers* play on the PC because it's 1,000x better. We only play on bootcamp if we have no other option. The groans are from graphics professionals and devs.

-G

MacNZ
Mac Enthusiast

Joined: Apr 2000

0

01/11, 04:30am | report spam | close Reply |
I'm with leuey

I don't even use a Mac Pro...a road warrior, and have used PowerBooks and macs for years, but get off it Apple apologists. Apple is way off the mark on the graphics issue.

The way it is, they may as well have soldered darn 1900XTs into the previous Mac Pros and taken $500+ off the price- that is essentially what they are doing with their attitude to graphics cards at the moment. I would be royally pissed if I had invested in a previous model Mac Pro, and would even consider jumping ship if 3D was critical to my job.

Apple seems to listen on some issues and not others. They are slowly working through Leopard bugs and iMac video issues, but why the heck can't they listen to their user base on this one. Every time there is a pro mac upgrade I survey the board and the majority of pro buyers, whether they will use it or not, shell out for the best graphics card they can....for two reasons 1) it seems to have become almost routine that apple will s**** graphics options later, and 2) The graphics upgrades actually do improve performance, especially when Apple is telling us their software is offloading certain tasks to the GPU.

I have no problem with gamers because they should at least be welcomed to the Apple platform. I don't game and don't have a lot of time for it, but I by no means agree with the pathetic approach Apple is taking on this one. If its another tactic to push people into upgrading more regularly then it seriously risks scaring more off the platform. I, for one, was thinking of making the move into the pro desktop line sometime in the coming months...I shan't be doing it!

himself
Mac Elite

Joined: Jan 2002

0

01/11, 05:07am | report spam | close Reply |
not good at all

I love Apple as much as the next fanboy, but this situation is not acceptable. Apple markets the Mac Pro (and the Power Macs that preceded it) as an "expandable" workstation. It doesn't matter if you're a gamer or a professional -- calling a machine expandable doesn't mean a thing if you will forever be stuck with outdated hardware that *should* be expandable, especially when the rest of the computer industry has been doing this with ease.

I'm thinking twice about jumping on this revision of the Mac Pro now -- I don't want to be stuck with a machine that could easily last me 5+ years, only to be unable to upgrade the graphics hardware to suit increasing software demands.

If Apple can't handle the demands of supplying newer graphics hardware to older workstations, they should just stop doing it. There are plenty of other 3rd party graphics card vendors that would be all too happy to take this on, if only Apple would let them.

ViktorCode
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Jan 2006

0

01/11, 06:02am | report spam | close Reply |
re: listen up idiots

For you information, Leuey, Apple does provide professional graphics cards for Mac Pro computers. But it seems you are confusing 'professional' cards with 'gaming' cards, like 8800 GT. And if you think that running Maya on 8800 GT instead of x1900XT is exactly what a professional need then you are wrong.

While I do agree with your statement that Apple's graphics upgrade routine is less than adequate in a world where the graphics performance grows 2-3 times faster than the CPU performance, I can't say OS X OpenGL implementation is lacking in terms of performance in comparison to that of XP. Where did that come from? Care to provide a link?

And thank you for blessing us with your presence here, mr. non-idiot.

Theres_NO_MAC_anymore
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Nov 2006

0

01/11, 06:10am | report spam | close Reply |
Once again fooled

All you Apple users, Do what I did when Apple fooled us PPC users in 2006. Now running AMD/Ubutan linux. Will soon replace the motherboard and CPU without I must replace all the rest in the computer. But my old dual G4 is still my favorite.

testudo
Forum Regular

Joined: Aug 2001

0

01/11, 07:45am | report spam | close Reply |
amazing

It's amazing anyone would be surprised by this. Apple has, for years, consider that people should run their computers with the hardware and software that came with it and be happy (the ol' "It is what you paid for, isn't it, so how are you saying you're screwed" argument).

They do not waste their time concerning themselves with their user's needs. The new MacPros will not run Tiger, even if your software isn't Leopard compatible (or you've standardized on Tiger at your office full of computers). Apple doesn't backward compatible it's OS ("oh, it's too hard! And we're a poor struggling company, and it would take time. And the new OS Is great so why bother!") and, as seen here, it's hardware.

Never expect your hardware will support the next version of any software from Apple, regardless of age. (Which, BTW, Apple can easily do since nowhere do they really specify how long they plan, for example, to support G4/G5 machines with their OS or software. So FCP 2008 may be Intel only, you just never know.)

This is what you get when you have the 'synergy' of a company making the software and hardware. It's in their best interest to just push the latest of both. Maybe someday Apple will start turning a profit and they'll be able to afford to make decisions that don't alienate their current customer base.

BTW, people can laugh at all the PC buyers getting their new boxes with XP instead of Vista. But because the OS and hardware aren't tied, they at least have the choice.

chulitomio
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: May 2004

0

01/11, 08:08am | report spam | close Reply |
O. M. G.

No professional has ever gotten any work done before the 8800! It is The Dawn of a New Age! Those who cannot be blessed with the 8800 are relegated to the dark ages of cholera and horse-drawn carriages with square wheels! Close your business now!

UberFu
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Oct 2002

0

01/11, 08:31am | report spam | close Reply |
aside from...

the whiners that are bitching about backwards compatibility with new machines they just bought - boo f****** hoo...

...Apple Customer Service does have a tendency to not know about it's own products_ I was trying to purchase a couple of Apple-based Accessories for my iPod in early December - trying to beat the whole "christmas rush"_ It's a new one - Classic - and both the Apple iPod Camera Connector and a version of the Apple USB Power Adaptor I had several CSR tell me they werre compatible_

Long story short no the Camera Adaptor is not compatible with the new Classics_ The Power Adaptor - there are 2 seperate products tthat look identical - except that they have 2 different model numbers_ Version A and version B_ Everyone up and down was swearing that the version A would in fact work just fine with the new Classic_ These were widely available in the various retailers - right next to the new iPod Classics for sale_ Couldn't find Version B on the shelves anywhere [only at Apple]_ Bought the A ['cause I could get it here in town] took it home - tried it out - didn't work_ Took it back - broke down and bought the Version B from the Apple Online store - it came - I tried it out - it worked fine_

I probably spoke with about 6 or 7 reps over 2 days_ And I basically ended up with 6 or 7 different interpretations of the compatability between the iPod Classic and the available accessories_

Roehlstation
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Aug 2001

0

01/11, 08:37am | report spam | close Reply |
8800 GT is NOT "Pro"

The Pro Option for things like Maya and what not is the Quadro FX5600, Not the GeForce 8800 GT. (Only a $2650 premium ;) )

I do wish however that Apple would get with the GPU makers to develop the firmware and drivers for the Mac Cards, the real limitations on the cards are that Apple writes their own software for the cards. I just don't feel they get their full potential doing that.

Roehlstation
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Aug 2001

0

01/11, 09:13am | report spam | close Reply |
re: Amazing

Don't be so certain that most new PCs you buy can actually run XP instead of Vista. HP with their DMI on the board and components that don't even have XP drivers have proven to not allow people to install XP on their Vista machine. The number of computers I've seen returned at the store where I work when people have tried to install XP on it and found the machine won't even boot is in the dozens last week alone. We're actually selling more refurbished XP machines than new Vista machines right now.

The percentage of Mac OS X applications that are Leopard compatible is much higher than the XP apps that are Vista compatible.

I do feel that if people want it enough, Apple will have to listen to their concerns about video hardware. Problem is, there just isn't that many people that really care, or even know to care. My Mac Pro runs anything as well, most things better than any PC I've ever seen or built for other customers spending twice as much. And my 8 year old PowerMac G4 has been able to run anything I've installed on it from Apple up to Leopard. So, yes, you CAN expect a new Mac will run the next version of whatever Apple releases.

chefpastry
Mac Enthusiast

Joined: Nov 2005

0

01/11, 10:32am | report spam | close Reply |
Upgradability

I bought my 1st gen Mac Pro due to it's ability to be upgraded. If I'd wanted a dead end, I would've gotten an iMac. If Apple has a new video card available why do they go out of their way to make it incompatible with the previous model?

hezekiahb
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Jun 2006

0

01/11, 10:45am | report spam | close Reply |
idiots

Look, if your professional needs don't require an 8800GT then great, but there are actually people out there in the world that do need it.

OS X is growing fast in the game development market as the machine of choice for game developers. If you are a game developer then the 8800GT is going to matter a lot to you!

Not all 3D tasks are equal. Games tend to tax specialized hardware (graphics card, physics card, sound card) far more than CPU. Higher processing power is nice but doesn't solve all problems & isn't always the best place to spend the money. If you are a gaming developer you expect to be able to update components of your computer separately.

The argument about who cares? Do you not understand that Apple can only innovate so long as they are successful at it?! You people that say we should just take what Apple shoves down our throats are probably the same ones who wined about moving from OS 9 to OS X, then from PPC to Intel. Get over it! The world is moving on & if Apple doesn't move with them then Apple will go by by & then what will you do? Your method of thinking is exactly what almost drowned Apple in the old days!

If the issue is simply firmware then Apple should address it, but give them time. Just because they've said it won't work doesn't necessarily mean it never will!

We would all love to get consistent answers on will they or when but dealing with Apple support is no different than dealing with any other professional support. Most of the time the information has been provided to them but they remembered incorrectly or didn't pay attention at that meeting. If you have an issue with conflicting reports then report them! I always get the tech's name so that if I need to I can report them, it's the only way Apple can know.

Alright, bring on the responses, I'm sure I've hurt someone's pride with my comments.

Philbert
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Jan 2002

0

01/11, 10:52am | report spam | close Reply |
Wait before whining

While I'd be truly disappointed if this turns out to be true, this is still an unclear issue. Apple says a LOT of things that aren't necessarily fact simply in order to cover their behind. (often, "max" RAM specs are a prime example) I'd wait to complain until someone actually tries it or we get a clear answer one way or another. While it doesn't look good, I still have hope.

However, if nothing else Apple, at least lower the price of the ancient ATI X1900XT! My MP with it's 7300GT could still get a decent boost but I'm not paying introduction prices for something 1.5 years old.

Roehlstation
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Aug 2001

0

01/11, 10:53am | report spam | close Reply |
Re Upgradability

Your First generation Mac Pro doesn't have a PCIe 2.0 slot, that is that, They didn't go out of their way to make the new card incompatible with older card, it is simply that they are using the new Standard. The new Mac Pro cards don't work with the Previous PCIe G5s because the MacPro uses an EFI card, the G5 doesn't work with EFI. They didn't go out of their way to make that happen either.

I just wish they'd go out of their way to offer more upgrades, or at least make it so someone else can.

that one guy
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: May 2005

0

01/11, 10:56am | report spam | close Reply |
Nvidia and ATI

I am not sure why these two do not make a range of graphics card upgrades that are compatible with the Mac Pro's. I am sure with the correct card, and a slightly higher price, they would have a decent market for upgrades. If I could have purchased a 8600, 8800 or entry to midlevel quadro based card, I would have purchased a Mac Pro a year ago instead of waiting for the newest versions.

Jonathan-Tanya
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Oct 2004

0

01/11, 11:01am | report spam | close Reply |
no expandable macs

The fact is, by not selling expandable macs in the affordable range....which gamers, and many other types of Mac owners want... that is hurting the Pro market too.

Where once, 3dfx, ATI and independent companies were producing Mac graphics cards... now the number of Mac's that can take an upgrade is small.

Apple purposely killed this market.

And in doing so, they are shooting themselves in the foot, as you can see demonstrated here.

There are no expandable mac's at any price.

You have a slot in your $3000 plus tower, but because of the anemic marketplace, don't expect graphics card makers to come in and fill the void, and goodness knows Apple isn't going to do it either.

Apple needs to start selling those low cost expandable towers...so that there will be a healthy PCIe Mac upgrade market....so there will be more choices for Pro users.... so they will sell more $3000 boxes.

They don't get how the market works...they still think you trap and confine, then turn the screws.

leamanc
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Oct 2003

0

01/11, 11:12am | report spam | close Reply |
Yes, this sucks

But no Mac Pro model of any sort is "obsolete." I challenge anyone to sit down at a Mac Pro of any vintage and call this computer slow or outdated.

Leuey
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Jun 2007

0

01/11, 12:48pm | report spam | close Reply |
mr. viktorcode (aka idiot

I own 3 x1900xt's - they are are pretty much on par (a little faster) than the 7800(which I also own). That's how I know. The 8800 is nearly twice as fast as the 7800 - this is well documented. How do I know that OpenGL is much slower on OSX than XP? Because I work 10 hours a day using Modo and Maya bouncing back and forth between XP and OSX - it's as plain as day and well documented among 3D pros.

The Quadro 5600 is NOT the typical pro option for Maya/Modo users - it does NOTHING that the 8800 doesn't do except have more RAM. It's also meaningless if it was b/c it's not offered as an upgrade either(!).

I love you iPeople - you think iMovie and it's ilk is actual software that Pro's use. I mean I love my Macs but the technical knowledge gulf between Mac people and PC people is wider than the grand canyon.

This is a stupid move by Apple that needs to be rectified. I mean I know they lik to make phones and colorful little gadgets now - but they used to be a computer company and they should act like one.

-G

David Esrati
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Jun 1999

0

01/11, 02:37pm | report spam | close Reply |
screwed-again

I couldn't even find an ATI X1900XT equipped MacPro when I bought my config. Not without waiting weeks. The card hasn't been available through many retailers- so, I opted for the 7800, hoping that my MacPro which was updated 6 months before- wasn't going to have to run a 1.5 year old card... Now- I can't use the new card- can't find the ATI X1900XT (and if I could- it's way too expensive)- So much for Motion, FCP- etc... which aren't games. From now on- it's iMacs- Since they don't seem to care about giving "Pro" users support.

henjin
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: May 2007

0

01/13, 11:58am | report spam | close Reply |
Apple store knows nothing

Apple Store phone sales insisted the dual Xeon was soldered to the MB and that I had better spent $1600 more on the fasted cpu as I would never be able to upgrade.. even if I wanted ot unless I bought a new machine. So the tale told about the video card makes no sense. I have an HP blackbird 002, all I have to do is check on power and on slots, that's it. O.K. will not be able to put 4Sli in but... I bought a DULL MacPro because I also use FCP Studio. That's it and also Shake.

All good but the HP blacvkbird 002 for modern design and speed still beats out the Mac Pro. With Apple you buy behind the curve and use the slowest OS on the planet. All good as I need FCP Studio,

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Apple sends mixed messages about 8800 GT

updated 12:55 am EST, Fri January 11, 2008

8800GT: not for 'old Pros'

what's the point?

Damn gamers!

Not a "gamer" issue...

poor xedgelockx

Re: boo frackin hoo

disappointed

listen up idiots

I'm with leuey

not good at all

re: listen up idiots

Once again fooled

amazing

O. M. G.

aside from...

8800 GT is NOT "Pro"

re: Amazing

Upgradability

idiots

Wait before whining

Re Upgradability

Nvidia and ATI

no expandable macs

Yes, this sucks

mr. viktorcode (aka idiot

screwed-again

Apple store knows nothing

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Apple sends mixed messages about 8800 GT

updated 12:55 am EST, Fri January 11, 2008

8800GT: not for 'old Pros'

Related Articles

Recent Articles

what's the point?

Damn gamers!

Not a "gamer" issue...

poor xedgelockx

Re: boo frackin hoo

disappointed

listen up idiots

I'm with leuey

not good at all

re: listen up idiots

Once again fooled

amazing

O. M. G.

aside from...

8800 GT is NOT "Pro"

re: Amazing

Upgradability

idiots

Wait before whining

Re Upgradability

Nvidia and ATI

no expandable macs

Yes, this sucks

mr. viktorcode (aka idiot

screwed-again

Apple store knows nothing

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