To be completely transparent here, I should note the following:

Technically the g4 wasn't Leopard-compatible, I installed it via a work around when I realized that the MB and graphics cards were the same as in other supported machines, so the only thing in my way was the arbitrary "867 mHz" chip cut off.

The year-old Dell simply isn't Vista capable. (I don't know -- or care -- why.)

You guys might want to change your headline and opening graf -- I'm sure the Farhad Manjoo and the other Salon folks would love for you not to be promoting their primary competition!

How to create a testudo post:

1) Pick apart a sentence or paragraph word for word. The slightest inaccuracy will make you feel far superior to someone you don't even know.

2) Don't use facts: Facts just muck up an argument. Argue the vague statements or words posted. It's much easier than doing research on facts.

3) You don't have to be right: Proving the other person wrong is a lot easier than proving yourself right. Always take the easy way out.

4) Use Sarcasm: It has been called the greatest defense for the weak minded. Use it at all times cause it makes you feel better about yourself and boosts your ego. It also helps you to avoid facts.

I rarely post on these boards. Seems you are a regular. But you rarely have real details to back up the claims. So, here's the challenge... compare that 15" Dell laptop to a 15" MBP. Show us the specs. Tell us how they compare, not just in price, but in features. Prove to us your fantastical arguement by using current models, current pricing, current features.

I actually like a bit of reality in my debates.

Although I will agree that I wish I could upgrade my stuff a little easier (towers or not), I do know that in real life I rarely make use of the feature. I've only ever replaced 3 video cards and 3 networking cards in my 15+ years of using both PC's and Mac's. One each went into the Mac, 2 into the PC. Oh, and I've owned/maintained about 2 dozen Mac's, and 1/2 dozen PC's. So again, I'd like it to be easier to change components, but I rarely need to on the Mac, so I'm content with what I've got.

Testudo is no "regular." He doesn't post in the MacNN Forums at all. His sole existence is to rain on every single article on MacNN that casts Macs in a positive light.

just because testudo says it is not.

Seriously, if you resell your computers to buy new ones on regular basis then 'the rent' will be lower for Macs than for your average PCs.

But really, who cares. Even if you couldn't sell your Mac for decent price would this fact prevented you from buying Mac in the first place? Of course not.

I say this with full declaration that I too am a frequent mac purchaser (always NIB). But the article does bring up a good point in that the resale of macs are much higher than their PC counterparts. Just have a look on ebay... you'll see the insane prices that even antiquated macs go for. Just crazy. Want a late model G4 tower? Better be ready to drop around $500. $500 for a system that is 3 chip generation technologies old and won't be able to run Apple's latest OS when the switch to Intel becomes permanent. I just can't fathom how a G4 tower is truly worth $500 today, but there are definitely plenty of idiots out there who are willing to feed this insane market and keep prices way up. The resale market is probably the only place where I envy PC users.

This is from Salon.com, Editors. And of all the publications you choose to confuse Salon for, it had to be Slate. It's like mistaking Apple for Sony.

...are a false economy.

do people really think they are saving money?

i guess most people don't think ahead.

@ simdude

" I hope there's something in life you have a passion for."

Shhhhh..... don't you get it? Posting his s*** here IS his passion. Don't take that away from him!











On second thought, go right on ahead. He's a d***.

I'm typing this on a single proc 1.25 GHz MDD G4 running Leonard, bought the day it came out. My pal bought himself a top of the line PeeCee the same day. Since we bought our machines, he has bought 2 other PC's (the latest just to run Vista) while I'm on the same Mac.

So yeah, Macs are cheaper by a LONGSHOT. Plus, his original PeeCee couldn't even run Vista. This G4 runs Leonard quite well. Add the costs up of what he spent and what I have spent, to the day. Mac = considerably less money spent.

So dear mac-hating PeeCee fanboys,

Suggit.

Yer pal,

Average Mac user

And here's why.

I was running a Blue and White G3 Mac, Rev 2 logic board with a 450 Mhz processor. It was running OS9, I installed OS X 10.3 on it. I instantly let Software Update do it's thing, which brought it up to the then current 10.3 release.

Eventually, I installed 10.4. Again, I let Software Update run and install the latest (at the time) version of 10.4. And then, my Mac died. I bought a nice used 1.42 Ghz Dual Processor G4, the "MDD" (Mirror Drive Door). Let me say that again. 1.42 Ghz. G4 Dual Processors. I changed out the drive for the one in my G3.

Powered it up. It booted into OS X 10.4.(mumble) without a hitch.

Then there's my keyboard. It's a 20 year old Apple Extended Keyboard. Hasn't given me a bit of trouble. It uses real mechanical key switches and not that conductive polymer c*** in "modern" keyboards. Great "feel" too. The current crop of keyboards feel like like I'm poking at a slab of Silly Putty.

I did have to buy an interface from Griffin in order to use the Extended on the MDD. Well worth the modest sum. Oh, and Leopard works perfectly with this keyboard. I just needed to hit a couple of keys for Leopard to recognize it (I was using the WWDC 2007 beta of Leopard).

There's a very good reason Mac fanboys are Mac fanboys.

Include the fact that you get the Mac OS & Bundled software with it, (as well as a remote haha) in my opinion it turns out cheaper.

And I understand the topic is resell value. But it should be considered that you do get a lot more with a new mac than just "Vista c*** Edition"

Even with the higher end iMacs, consider buying a PC:

with the same specs (and not a generic 20" monitor, something with matches Apples) wifi card bluetooth firewire Vista Ultimate, (to compete with 10.5??? haha) a web-cam, $100 worth of software to compete with iWeb, iMovie etc, a decent mail client, EASY to use dual-booting software, EASY to use backup software to compete with Time Machine, anti-virus software (that you would need for a PC),

and you are starting to look at, actually, something of comparable value. And then with the apparent advantage of resell value, it might be something which is actually affordable.

Windows users are put off by the initial price of a Mac, but don't realize the price of buying something more conventional.

However, Apple are not going to compromise by releasing a lower-grade product to compete with a Win Desktop, and it seems Windows users will remain ignorant to the above, so I doubt there will be very much change in the long run...

New Mac hardware runs

OSX, Unix/linnux Flavors, Windows XP, Windows Vista.

PC's give less options. They cannot run OSX

In the end it is up to the consumer which one would be better for them. But Testudo your argument is lacking.

Mercedes M class

Or a Ford Fiesta

Both are cars both have similar options.

In the end I bet Testudo is a Ford Fiesta kind of guy.

After all Cheaper is always better am I right?

The dollar menu cheeseburger at McDonalds is far better than going to a Steakhouse and getting a Porter House.

In the end you get what you pay for and many people use RESALE value as a way to determine what something is currently worth.

Something is worth what you are willing to pay.

In other words Testudo you have shown us you are a pretty cheap person.

I think the term is "cheapskate"

You have cheap arguments. Cheap points. Cheap data. Cheap ideals.

Like an old used suit at Goodwill.

i concur with pennywigeon on testudo...

It is comparing a $50000 car that is basically an engine and a steering wheels, with a $75000 car that has a sunroof, heated seats, blu-ray player, free swimwear model etc. and saying that the 50000 car is cheaper... duh... but look at what you are getting, capi-tan.

A comparison...

A homebrew PC (prices from a local retailer..) Asus P5K - $150 Intel C2D E6550 - $185 8800 GTX - $550 2GB PC6400 DDR RAM - $80 DVD-RW - $30 Chassis - $50 22" Acer Display $250 320GB HDD - $120 MacOS X 10.5 - $130

For a grand total of $1545

A 24" iMac (CTO to get the options close) - 2GB RAM -Stock HDD -2.4 GHz CPU

Total $2065

Now, come a few years down the road, I can replace my GPU, Add more HDDs, Increase RAM to 8GB, etc all for a minimal cost -or- over time. And, I dont have to try and sell my machine to make up the cost.

Any way you slice it, this article is flamebait from Apple fanbois

Karma,

Your homebrew might be fine, but your $250 monitor is where you get the savings -- and will certainly see the difference. The Apple doesn't cheap out on the displays ... If you want to compare more faithfully, use the Mini ... (Which is only $800) and don't forget to add iLife ...

Because, after all, you need to be comparing Apples to apples!

Homebrew you would have to run a hacked version of OSX in order to run on the non-apple hardware. The pre-installed applications that come as extras, also better quality Monitor ands the DVD burner in the iMac is a DUAL layer not Single Layer burner and a warranty and support from one vendor instead of many.

In the end for the average user you can (a)

buy a bunch of cheap aftermarket parts and spend hours slapping some duct tape job together to save a few bucks or you can spend 10 minues and order one preconfigured.

I don't know about you but for me time = money. Nothing productive about "building a PC" when I can just order one and be productive within an hour of recieving it in the mail.

Luxury car versus economy car.

Some people love driving Yugos. Go figure

Im looking at the display on my 20" iMac right now and I actually prefer my Acer display on my studio machine at home. It may be an inexpensive display, but its certainly not "cheap".

When comparing similar equipment, name brand non white box PCs and Macs are always in the same price range. PC purchase prices, for similar HW, is about the same. People always compare PCs with half the specs of the Mac to claim PCs are cheaper up front.

When comparing similar equipment, name brand non white box PCs and Macs are always in the same price range. PC purchase prices, for similar HW, is about the same. People always compare PCs with half the specs of the Mac to claim PCs are cheaper up front.

But what if you only need/want a Mac with half the specs? There's only so many options for the mac. Again, what if you just need a computer that you can install a couple of extra internal hard drives? Mac cost? $2500. Dell cost? $500-$4000, depending on everything else.

Don't want to waste money on a web cam? No problem with a PC. Big problem if you want a Mac. But, that's OK, just include it, what's a little extra cost? Need the power of an iMac, but don't want to spend all that money for an integrated screen (which means that, if the screen goes, the computer goes to?). Too bad.

But I'm sure when someone wants to spend $1000 on a computer, you can talk them into a $2000 mac, because, once you add in all the features they weren't going to buy, it'd cost the same!

"But what if you only need/want a Mac with half the specs?"

Then you're not doing a direct comparison, are you? And your argument falls through again. A PC with fewer features than a Mac doesn't qualify as being "cheaper" - it falls under the "you get what you pay for" category.

Like that other guy who tried to compare a PC to a Mac by listing inferior components (and leaving some out completely) and then saying that the Mac was more expensive. That 22" monitor isn't a 24" monitor. How is that the same thing? The 22" monitor looks worse and has lower resolution. The PC he listed doesn't have a webcam, but the Mac does, etc.

Whether you need those features is irrelevant in this argument. What's relevant is the comparative cost when you include all the features, as well as the lack of features on the PCs. Since this is a discussion about COST, you can't get away with saying PCs are cheaper while admitting that they have fewer features and crappier components unless you also admit that Macs are simply worth more.

Compare feature by feature and PCs stop looking like such great deals.

there's another problem with your math. If the ONLY thing you worry about it bottom-line price, not quality of OS, not quality of phone support, hardware, compatibility, time spent to actually build your own pc, then you shouldn't limit yourself to the legalities of getting a computer. The CHEAPEST computer you could get would be a high-end mac or PC that you stole. If we're only worried about spending as little actual cash as possible, why spend any money at all? Just steal it. Certainly, there is a risk in getting caught, and the jail time that would ensue, but that's just one more thing to not add into the equation...