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Apple denies violating EU laws

updated 05:50 pm EDT, Tue April 3, 2007

Apple denies EU claims

Apple has denied claims that it breached European Union laws regarding the pricing of songs on its iTunes Store, following a 'statement of objections' that was sent to the Cupertino-based company as well as several unnamed major music labels -- which are believed to be the "big four" known as EMI Group, Warner Music Group, Universal Music Group, and Sony BMG. "We don't believe Apple did anything to violate EU law," Apple said. "We will continue to work with the EU to resolve this matter," the company added. The Financial Times reports that the big four record labels are understood to be included in the antitrust probe. The primary argument behind the probe centers around the fact that consumers are limited to purchasing music from the local iTunes site in their own country, which effectively limits consumer choice of where to buy tracks and what music is available at a given price, according to AFX.

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l008com
Addicted to MacNN

Joined: Jan 2000

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04/03, 06:15pm | report spam | close Reply |
yeah

Its a shame apple prevents users from buying CDs and then loading those CDs into iTunes, and in turn into their iPods. Oh wait, they don't prevent you from doing that. So STFU.

Clive
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Joined: Jan 2001

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04/03, 06:31pm | report spam | close Reply |
Re: yeah

Wrong issue, the European Commission has already stated that, at the current time, it is not interested in investigating iTunes bought recordings being tied to Apple hardware. It seems even less likely that the EC will look into this given the new deal between Apple and EMI.

This investigation is about Apple charging different prices to consumers in the UK and Denmark, compared to those in the Eurozone. For example iTunes in the UK cost GBP:0.79, in the Eurozone they are the equivalent of GBP:0.66. This isn't merely the difference in prevailing VAT rates.

Additionally, Apple is preventing customers in one country buying iTunes from any of the other EU iTunes stores - this is the main thing that the EC will look into.

While it may seem odd to you, EU regulations stipulate that countries within the EU are to be treated as a single market - and that consumers must have equal access to them.

What Apple is doing right now is equivalent, in EU terms, to preventing someone in New Jersey placing an order at an Apple Store based in New York, and then charging the person in New Jersey extra for the privilege of buying in their home state.

I think, even in the good old USA, that would be frowned upon?

What was it you were saying about STFU?

I.P. Freely
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Joined: May 2003

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04/03, 07:22pm | report spam | close Reply |
re: re: yeah

That is all good and fine, except you really have no idea what you are stating is true.

What you are stating is your opinion.

You do not deal with music company and their team of attorney. You do not deal with individual country and their copyright law. You do not have to deal with any of these issues, so I say to you STFU before stating what you think as truth.

The reality of it is that you as a person have no idea what the deal is.

McDave
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Joined: Jun 2006

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04/03, 09:29pm | report spam | close Reply |
re: re: re: yeah

OK, I'm confused...

UK iTunes cost 79p - True Current iTunes international restrictions via credit card security - True Current iTunes restrictions in conflict with EU legislation - Opinion

i.p.freely falling on his/her sword by applying a generic concept whilst ignoring specific facts in the previous comment - True

McD

McDave
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04/03, 09:40pm | report spam | close Reply |
Move on..

Apple should use this to move forward with EMI (others should follow) to globalise music release not just standardise in the EU.

I'm unsure if restricting iTunes TV shows in the EU (where DVDs are being sold) is legal either.

McD

I.P. Freely
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Joined: May 2003

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04/03, 11:05pm | report spam | close Reply |
re: re: re: re: yeah

Sorry if I confused you...

But the gist of the Clive's message was that it is an unfair business practice by Apple that is being perpetrated upon the EU community.

Prices, restriction (which is not what I am saying is an opinion) are there for a reason...

I don't know the reason why price is higher in UK vs EU, maybe Apple has to pay more in UK, we don't know.... Why can't you buy from different store, maybe the artist gets paid different loyalty depending on country it is sold in. Again, we don't know.

Does EU have an unified copyright laws... and is this applied equally across the the whole system? Again, again there are lot of questions that we do not have answers to.

So it is wrong for Clive to make his simplified statement based on his own conjecture.

If EC feels that it is unfair, let them investigate it and get the facts. How would any of us know if this business is fair or not without all of the facts... hence my reasoning of STFU.

walafrid
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04/04, 05:26am | report spam | close Reply |
eh?

I agree that we should be cautious before wading into this discussion without being in the full possession of the facts, but somethings can't just be dismissed as 'opinion'.

First, Apple does prevent you from buying in the iTunes store of another country. And yes, there is no restriction on the sale of good between EEC states. But there are some questions: do iTunes purchases count as 'goods'? Is Apple doing anything illegal?

The different prices in EEC states is not illegal, and as far as I can work out, the original Which? report was saying that consumers are being restricted in their choices. Which is true. But on what basis is that restriction? That is, surely, what the pending investigations by the EU authorities are going to decide upon.

Clive
Mac Enthusiast

Joined: Jan 2001

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04/04, 07:01am | report spam | close Reply |
Let's get some things�

�straight

First, I'm not saying that Apple doesn't have agreements with different copyright holders in different countries - it's obvious that they can.

Second, I'm not saying that Apple can't sell iTunes in the UK for twice what it sells them in the Eurozone - if it really wants to.

But, what it cannot do, by EU regulation (and this has been proven in a number of test cases in the European Court of Justice), is prevent people in one EU state buying "things" in another EU state.

While that is an opinion, it's an informed opinion, not one that I just pulled out of my arse.

As to trying to distinguish between "goods", Walafrid, and "services", you're on a loser there - because the single market is supposed to guarantee the free movement of goods, services and people.

Does the EU have unified copyright laws? In a way, yes it does, because the laws of each state have to be compliant with the requirements of directives of the European Commission (who will run the investigation into Apple/iTunes).

I think some degree of knowledge of the laws and institutions of the EU is required to comment in an informed manner in this thread - most of you are just making sure the rest of us know you don't have such knowledge.

walafrid
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04/04, 08:59am | report spam | close Reply |
thank you

Clive, thanks for clearing up that 'goods' and 'services' are equivalent in this discussion. It's a distinction I've already seen made many times in discussions on this topic, and it's good to know the real position. But again I say, let's wait to see the direction these investigations actually take.

I for one submit that, though (or perhaps especially because) I live in the UK, I have limited knowledge of consumer rights legislation made by the EU; I wish more people in general would practice patience when discussing these kinds of issues. Often, as you say Clive, we merely expose the inadequacies of our own knowledge.

ender
Junior Member

Joined: Mar 1999

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04/04, 09:05am | report spam | close Reply |
Rollout

If I remember correctly, iTunes was not rolled out to the entire EU at the same time; but rather one or two countries at a time. That suggests that for some reason Apple was forced to negotiate licensing deals on a per-country basis. Why? Different copyright laws in different countries, restrictions placed on it by the record labels on a per country basis, issues with credit card authorization rules, having to deal with different distributors (license holders) in each country, etc.

It certainly would not make sense (from an efficiency standpoint) for Apple to have done it this way. Having a single store for the entire EU would likely make the most sense for Apple. So something must have prevented them from doing that. What that something is will have great bearing on how this plays out.

Person Man
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04/04, 09:20am | report spam | close Reply |
If you read the article,

If you read the article you would see that Apple says they WANTED to roll out one Europe-wide store, where ANYONE from Europe could buy anything, regardless of what country they're in.

The labels and publishing companies are what prevented it. Looks like the EU is going to sort out that restriction for them.

This is NOT about them charging 79 pence in the UK and 99 eurocents in Europe. It's about restrictions on a person in UK being able to purchase a Greek song from the Greek iTunes Store that is only available on the Greek store, which runs afoul of EU law.

Clive
Mac Enthusiast

Joined: Jan 2001

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04/04, 09:58am | report spam | close Reply |
Both

It's about both issues: the difference between EUR:0.99 and GBP:0.79 and whether someone can order iTunes from a different country store to the country in which they are located.

This is because the second issue effects the first, and vice versa. Which? got involved because of the price differential, which in itself is not illegal. But restricting the rights of EU citizens (actually includes residents too, who don't have EU citizenship) to purchase from any outlet within the EU is not legal.

A few scenarios: imagine going to a supermarket in France, and the owner asking to see your passport, and then only serving you if you were French?

Would we argue that this isn't discriminatory to other EU citizens/residents?

What if I use mail order to buy a CD from Germany, and I'm located in the UK? Can the retailer refuse to serve me? (I think they can, only if they don't do mail order to start with - but if they do mail order for *anyone* then they have to do it fro *everyone*).

So, Apple is in the latter position - in fact they are worse in many ways, because even if I were physically located in Germany I still could not buy from the German iTunes store with my UK issued credit card!?

I'm sure Apple does want to roll out a single store for the EU, it would be much easier for them. But other things get in the way - that's not to say that those other things may not be illegal barriers to trade.

This is what the whole EU thing is all about, making member states a level playing field, so that consumers/businesses can make their own choices about where they want to buy.

As an example, a few months ago I had some posters printed, the best price I got was from print works in Germany - so they were printed there, shipped to the UK, and I even managed to send a few off them back again. :-)

Person Man
Professional Poster

Joined: Jun 2001

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04/04, 10:48am | report spam | close Reply |
Clive gets it...

Clive, you understand the issues, other people seem to think it's about the DRM or about the price differential. I still don't think it's about the price differential, though it may have been the issue that got them investigating in the first place.

Example: Band A sells a CD in the UK for �10 and the same CD in Germany for �10. A person in Germany could order the CD from a mail order company in the UK and pay the higher price. That's not the issue.

Heck, as a person living in the United States, I can mail order Greek CDs from Europe too, but I can't buy the same songs on the Greek iTunes store.

The record labels and publishers have imposed the residency/country restrictions, not Apple. I don't see why Apple should be fined at all.

Clive
Mac Enthusiast

Joined: Jan 2001

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04/04, 11:39am | report spam | close Reply |
that's basically it

like you say, you can buy mail order, physical goods, and it's not a problem - even when you want to buy downloadable software.

It's tough luck that Apple is caught in the middle here - but they made the problem for themselves by introducing the differential pricing (CDs aren't cheaper in Germany or France than in the UK, so there's no logic to stating that Apple's agreements farce higher prices in the UK - it could be, but it's unlikely).

But, whatever happens, its unlikely that any EC investigation will help person man buy Greek songs from the US iTunes store, or allow him to buy directly from the Greek iTunes store - this will only affect EU citizens/residents.

Though, I suppose it would be possible to be an EU citizen living in the US, but who would want to do that� :-)

I.P. Freely
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: May 2003

0

04/04, 01:00pm | report spam | close Reply |
the problem

Clive you might have greater knowledge about EU laws than most of us and how they are suppose to work.

Discussing how it is suppose to work versus how it is working, can't be had since we do not know the inner workings of the discussion that took place between Apple and the record companies. What concession did Apple make or what condition did record company put into the contract? We have to take that into account before we start saying what is fair.

All I am asking is don't simplify everything by using examples of "How it is suppose to work."

Clive
Mac Enthusiast

Joined: Jan 2001

0

04/04, 11:15pm | report spam | close Reply |
no problem

Unfortunately the problem of the discussions between Apple and what contractual obligations they have is their problem, not the EU�s or the citizens and consumers of the EU.

If Apple has an agreement that is in contravention of EU regulations or directives, which one do you expect to win?

Clue: it won�t be Apple.

It doesn�t really matter what the contracts say, laws made by parliaments, or their delegated authorities, are supreme over contract.

So, the fact is, we don�t actually need to know what Apple�s contracts with the recording companies say.

What could be the effect? Well Apple could just close the iTunes stores throughout the EU. But that seems unlikely, because whatever is the result for Apple will be the result for everyone else.

That means that if other online music stores are restricting sales by country of residence within the EU, and the EC says they can�t do that, then they�d all have to either stop selling music (ie no online music sales in the EU) or they�d have to revisit the issue with the copyright holders.

I think it�s more likely to be the latter, but that�s just my opinion.

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Apple denies violating EU laws

updated 05:50 pm EDT, Tue April 3, 2007

Apple denies EU claims

yeah

Re: yeah

re: re: yeah

re: re: re: yeah

Move on..

re: re: re: re: yeah

eh?

Let's get some things�

thank you

Rollout

If you read the article,

Both

Clive gets it...

that's basically it

the problem

no problem

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Apple denies violating EU laws

updated 05:50 pm EDT, Tue April 3, 2007

Apple denies EU claims

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yeah

Re: yeah

re: re: yeah

re: re: re: yeah

Move on..

re: re: re: re: yeah

eh?

Let's get some things�

thank you

Rollout

If you read the article,

Both

Clive gets it...

that's basically it

the problem

no problem

Login Here

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