Netherlands joins Norway, pursues Apple

updated 04:05 pm EST, Thu January 25, 2007
by MacNN Staff

Netherlands pursues Apple

The Netherlands has joined Norway, Sweden, and Finland alongside France and Germany in an effort to hold Apple accountable for locking customers into using its portable media players and iTunes software when purchasing audio tracks via its iTunes Music Store. The Dutch Consumer Ombudsman lodged complaints with the Dutch anti-trust agency as well as ConsumentenAutoriteit -- the newly formed Dutch Consumer Authority -- which will act as the enforcer of 15 European consumer protection directives, according to The Register. The Scandinavian-led effort charges that Apple's iTunes violates Norway's consumer law, and that the company must change its policy by September 30th or face legal ramifications.

Apple issued a statement earlier this week saying that the Cupertino-based company is aware of the concerns from several European agencies, but that it is looking forward to resolving the issues as quickly as possible.

Apple developed and implemented its own form of digital rights management (DRM) that it calls "FairPlay" to protect songs purchased from the iTunes Music Store to prevent piracy, alleviating some of the fears voiced by major record labels prior to the widespread availability of digital music online.

The protection scheme, which limits users' ability to play back tracks to Apple's own iPod players and its iTunes media software, drew widespread criticism in France last year when the country drafted a law that would have forced Apple to open its closed standard to competitors. The French law eventually passed after several revisions, and has yet to bear any serious consequences for Apple.

France's recently passed DRM law struck fear into the hearts of Apple lovers and investors alike as it progressed through various stages in both French houses. Rumors and speculation that Apple would close its France iTunes Music Store for good and withdraw from the country rather than opening up its closed standard to competitors coupled with the possibility that any outcome in the French courts could set a standard overseas. Visions of a domino affect likely clouded the minds of industry analysts trying to predict Apple's financial future, but those fears were cast aside when the French law was declared unconstitutional and again revised with more lenient measures.

The iPod-maker currently lays claim to about 50 percent of the Dutch internet download market, but is drawing increased fire from governments and agencies overseas for its closed iPod/iTunes ecosystem. Dutch Consumentenbond spokesman Ewald van Kouwen said his group has filed a formal complaint with the Dutch antitrust watchdog NMa, requesting an investigation into what he called "illegal practices" by the iTunes Music Store, according to the Associated Press.

"What we want from Apple is that they remove the limitations that prevent you from playing a song you download from iTunes on any player other than an iPod," said van Kouwen. "When you buy a music CD it doesn't play only on players made by Panasonic. People who download a song from iTunes shouldn't be bound to an iPod for the rest of their lives."

Apple said in its statement Monday that it hopes "European governments will encourage a competitive environment that lets innovation thrive," leaving out details about how it intends to handle the rising tide of criticism in Europe.

TOTAL_COMMENTS Comments

PookJP 01/25, 04:08pm

... but side with these countries. It's in nobody's interest but Apple's to mandate using an iPod for music downloaded from iTMS.

bobolicious 01/25, 04:25pm

...you get better quality sound, no DRM & a physical backup in case of disaster - as far as I know no one is forcing the Dutch to buy from ITMS - it is a choice, perhaps based on convenience but still a choice...

That being said countries can legislate pretty much what they want - slavery was legal for quite a time in many countries & murder is still routinely legalized with a declaration of war...

Sebastien 01/25, 04:41pm

..loose

After all, Apple can do no wrong, right?

legacyb4 01/25, 04:41pm

people are making a choice to buy from iTunes Music Store. They could easily buy, borrow, rent, or steal CDs and import that music into iTunes and be done with it.

On the other hand, is anyone forcing Microsoft to make Media Player (or whatever they use these days to sync music to their licensed hardware players) to support iPods?

bhuot 01/25, 04:45pm

Just because Apple markets iPod + iTunes doesn't mean you need to buy an iPod to use iTunes or need iTunes music to use an iPod. For most people who own iPods, most of their music is not from iTunes. I don't have an iPod but I would have no trouble burning iTunes songs to a CD and playing them on any CD player or burning them to MP3s. I think the iPod is a waste of money, and if you feel the same, don't buy an iPod. It is just the same as stealing music from an artist because you don't like how much they charge. These are market economies - no one is forcing you to buy an iPod and no one is forcing you to use iTunes and you can very easily use on or the other without the other one. Learn how to use a computer people. I know some people in Europe can use a computer - their are a lot of open source programmers there.

Sebastien 01/25, 04:47pm

"On the other hand, is anyone forcing Microsoft to make Media Player (or whatever they use these days to sync music to their licensed hardware players) to support iPods?"

No, because it's Apple that won't other music stores support the iPod - Real tried and got sued by Apple. Another point for the countries going after Apple about this.

Sebastien 01/25, 04:48pm

"won't let other music stores"

bhuot 01/25, 04:53pm

"No, because it's Apple that won't other music stores support the iPod - Real tried and got sued by Apple. Another point for the countries going after Apple about this."

What is so sacred about iTunes + iPod. If you want to buy music from iTunes and use it with a Zune, just burn your iTunes collection to a CD and then rip mp3s off it. Does Zune not support MP3s - that is not Apple's fault. If you are unable to click a couple of buttons to convert your music, I think you would find the Zune or even the iPod to hard to use. If you are missing both hands, you can use the built in screen reader in OS X to talk to your computer and you can still convert your music fine. Using an iPod or Zune might be a challenge though, without hands.

I.P. Freely 01/25, 04:59pm

"let the rabbid fanboys... ..loose

After all, Apple can do no wrong, right?"

What a f****** stupid statement!

Roehlstation 01/25, 05:04pm

If Apple decided to license Fairplay the price of those "cheaper" players would go up. And when those players don't work right with iTunes because they aren't using the standards Apple set forth, will Apple have to hear the complaints? They are doing this because they do not want to have to support other players. These other players would have to change to support the DRM and Apple shouldn't be forced to write a DRM for all of those players. Because regardless they have to have a DRM of some sort in place.

Sebastien 01/25, 05:06pm

"f you want to buy music from iTunes and use it with a Zune, just burn your iTunes collection to a CD and then rip mp3s off it. "

Is *everything* on the iTunes store available on CDs? Really, I'm just wondering, because I was under the impression that some stuff (indie stuff?) was exclusive to iTunes.

Sebastien 01/25, 05:07pm

actually, I confused your point with some else's (about buying CD instead of using the iTunes store); burning CDs is a viable alternative to transfer to other players.

aristotles 01/25, 05:10pm

You cannot play DRM'ed WMA files on non-playsforsure devices and you cannot play songs from Zune Marketplace on either the iPod or PlaysforSure devices.

Not only that but neither Playsforsure or Zunes work with Macs because MSFT is not interested in supporting other platforms.

The Europeans are obviously bored and looking for something to do.

Sebastien 01/25, 05:19pm

well, one differenct is that playsforsure is licensed to other companies, which at least proves MS's willingness to share/open up the platform for it.

Fairplay on the other hand is totally closed, and Apple further crippled the iPod when Real attempted to allow the iPod to support Fairplay with its own store

dynsight 01/25, 05:20pm

Actually, I have a copy of Cute FTP, but I can't run it on OS X. You mean, to use this program, I have to have Windows?

Hey, I can't put my Brita Filter in my PUR filtration system.

This is ridiculous...you know what you are getting when you choose your product. There are so many examples of closed systems...they are no better or worse for music than they are for other products.

Personally, I would love to see all DRM removed, but I have not found the current model onerous (other than having to remember to deauthorize a computer before mothballing it)

I.P. Freely 01/25, 05:23pm

"What we want from Apple is that they remove the limitations that prevent you from playing a song you download from iTunes on any player other than an iPod," said van Kouwen.

This is wrong, since you can play these songs once you burn them to a CD... They don't seem to get that idea. Why don't they address this feature?

"When you buy a music CD it doesn't play only on players made by Panasonic. People who download a song from iTunes shouldn't be bound to an iPod for the rest of their lives."

When you buy CD player you only play CD's you can't play Cassette tapes or vinyl records. So I'm bound by the CD format. If we go by this idiots logic.

And here is the most important point...

Using iTMS is optional, you are not required to use it. If you were required to us ITMS to get songs on to iPod, then yes they have a case. But they have no case.

And if Apple were to allow people to download music to other players, where does that leave the consumer if something wrong happens to either the download song or the device?

Apple isn't in the business to support "other players". How is this fair for the consumers.

Sebastien 01/25, 05:24pm

" There are so many examples of closed systems..."

Agreed. I think the only reason Apple is getting beat up on this is because they're currently percieved as having a monopoly on the market. The same arguments could be brought against other stores as well (the ones that have DRM'd music), but since they don't have the same weight in the market, they're not targeted

Peter Bonte 01/25, 05:26pm

playsforsure won't work in osX, Zune is closed just like the x-box, nintendo, playstation, gameboy, psp, sega, tandy computers, schneyder, domotica systems and the recorder from my cable provider. CD's weren't supposed to be so open, easy copying was more coincidental because computers didn't have CD-players/burners at that time.

It has always been closed and the labels have more say in this than Apple is, can Apple decide on it own to strip the DRM from iTunes? Don't think so.

Peter Bonte 01/25, 05:34pm

Having a monopoly isn't a crime if they got it in a fair and open market and didn't misuse another monopoly to get it. MS used there monopoly in this market but lost miserably, Apple won the war fair and square.

If these laws open up the DRM in music, games and movies then all the best but don't target only Apple. :-(

slider 01/25, 05:38pm

From an all-thing-being-equal point-of-view, if you have an issue with DRMs, then order the CD from Amazon or whomever and your done. But, from the reality that most consumers don't have a clue about anything in tech industry and foremost, don't understand what they are getting themselves into with buying music from iTunes, so, in the interest of the consumers, Apple should open up their DRMs to work on other players.

If the rumors are true, Apple will probably do this sooner than later. The strategy thus far has positioned Apple well. The iPod now has a well known reputation and quiet simply is a better product than what is currently available; there is no reason Apple should not open this up now especially in light of this new fervent pressure. Plus, it'll look better for Apple to cooperate.

testudo 01/25, 05:56pm

That being said countries can legislate pretty much what they want - slavery was legal for quite a time in many countries & murder is still routinely legalized with a declaration of war...

Yeah, and buying up a market and completly controlling it used to be legal. But weren't you all happy when MS got themselves in court for their anticompetitive monopolistic practices? Sometimes those legislations are a good thing....

horvatic 01/25, 06:00pm

DRM was the record labels idea, not Apple. So they complied with what the record labels wanted so they could sell there music online. Now why doesn't these other countries go after Microsoft, Napster and alike? They are so incompatible you can't even browse there stores because you need IE6 or later to get in. This is just as illegal if not worse than what Apple has. And Apple does let you buy music regardless of the player you have. You have to convert it to MP3 first. This is just stupid politics!

bhuot 01/25, 06:06pm

"Yeah, and buying up a market and completly controlling it used to be legal. But weren't you all happy when MS got themselves in court for their anticompetitive monopolistic practices? Sometimes those legislations are a good thing...."

By the time the courts had settled the Microsoft-Netscape case, Netscape only existed as a trademark and nothing more and owned by AOL.

Also another case against Microsoft that Microsoft lost was not enforced by the Bush administration.

Microsoft is still a monopoly and got all of its market not handed it to IBM because IBM was under ant-trust trials by scams and I still don't see any teeth in any of the juudgements against Microsoft. Microsoft was suppossed to be divided up into different companies - when is that going to happen.

testudo 01/25, 06:09pm

OK, let's roll off how bad your arguments are, compared to the point at hand

Actually, I have a copy of Cute FTP, but I can't run it on OS X. You mean, to use this program, I have to have Windows?

CuteFTP is software and is licensed for your use with restrictions. You do not "own" it, nor do you technically have any rights to it not granted by the license.

Hey, I can't put my Brita Filter in my PUR filtration system.

Geesh, amazing what kind of idiotic stuff people will come up with! A filter and filtration system are NOT copyrightable materials! Ergo, fair-use policies DO NOT apply. You can, if you want, try to use the filter, force it on there, get it to work through some contraption. There are no restrictions from you doing that, but neither are there any policies that say all filters must be interchangable.

This is ridiculous...you know what you are getting when you choose your product. There are so many examples of closed systems...they are no better or worse for music than they are for other products.

Music is a copyrighted product, and, as such, purchasers of said product have so-called 'fair-use' rights to that product.

If the recording industry announced next week that they have a kick-butt DRM scheme for CDs that makes ripping the music to your computer impossible (or limit the quality to some measly 128kbps or something), and all CDs produced from now on would have this included, you all would be so up in arms about how this was against all your rights and illegal and so-on. But, again, this is Apple, so it doesn't matter what the situation is, someone does something not pro-apple means they're idiots and should be driven into the sea.

Personally, I would love to see all DRM removed, but I have not found the current model onerous (other than having to remember to deauthorize a computer before mothballing it)

So you have no problem burning all your purchased music to CD and re-ripping it to use it outside of itunes?

Keep in mind we're not talking about just ipod/itunes here. We're talking about all limitations this brings. Even if you have a mac, an iPod, use iTunes, etc, you're still stuck right there. If you want to listen to your iTMS music on your stereo, you've got to get some other special device from Apple (Airport Express) or connect your computer directly to your stereo (because everyone has those two right next to each other). Apple controls everything about where you can and can't listen to that music.

But I'm glad no one here cares. And I'm sure no one here will complain about MS and Zune doing the same thing.

l008com 01/25, 06:17pm

nobody is locked in. Thats like saying ford locks you into buying a ford when you buy parts from the ford service department. If you don't want an iPod, buy from one of the many other online music stores, or physical media. I don't see any "locking" going on at all. Will they also sue because Apple software like iWork "locks you in" to buying a Mac because it won't run on dells?

Jordan 01/25, 06:23pm

Apple should be made to make iTunes songs work with every other player out there.

While we are at it, digital music is just a form of digital media or software, so Microsoft should make all of it's programs work on my Mac. But why stop there, it should be illegal for anyone to write any software that doesn't work with every known operating system environment (which will help those Linux people). Apologies in advance to all those little software developers who clearly are going to have to find new jobs as they won't be able to support every platform for their little handy app that took them six months to write.

But why stop there. The new HD DVD's should also be made to work with each other. It's immoral not to. The memory stick I bought for my Nikon should work with my Sony. All bread should be made to fit my toaster (so that means outlawing the really thick slices). My Swahili isn't that good and neither is my German so all newspapers in those countries should be printed in languages other people speak. (There can't be more than several hundred languages.)

This is a very dangerous precedent that they are embarking on. Despite the fact that I will be living in Europe in a couple of months, if forced, Apple should pull out of those countries that won't allow them to operate in the same manor that every other business has operated in for centuries.

horvatic 01/25, 06:24pm

Apple should pull the stores out of these countries and let them fend for themselves. Piracy will rule over there guaranteed!

aristotles 01/25, 08:11pm

Sebastien, maybe you did not notice that Playsforsure is windows only. It cannot be licensed to OS X by Apple contrary to claims by MSFT defenders. It is integrated so heavily into windows itself that MSFT would have to port it themselves to OS X.

Sebastien 01/25, 08:23pm

What I said is that playsforsure is available on multiple players, not just one, whereas Fairplay is only available on the iPod, and Apple is not willing to license it for other players.

ophiochos 01/25, 09:04pm

it is a bit schizophrenic this whole thing. No-one wants DRM (except the Music industry) and we stupdiAppleFanBoysIncapableofThought (always a good way not to address the issues, to make that accusation) find ourselves in the odd position of a) defending Apple's DRM and b) pointing out that it is actually the most easy to get round. When Zunes can't even beam a lot of the tracks to another Zune because of DRM, with the cross-platform (sebastien - Fairplay is available on Mac Os X and WIndows thru iTunes, not just iPods) Apple software, it's pretty damned easy, let's be honest. Burn it to CD, not a bad idea for a back-up though lossless would be nice, then re-import. As for making it compatible with all players, good grief. My phone is a music player, my Palm is a music player, soon my keyring will be as well. How can Apple make it compatible? by using crappy MP3, MAYBE. what about a portable CD player? How on earth could apple make it compatible with all players?

oh, and can we lose the rubbish about 'the Europeans' please? Do you know how dumb that is? Or shall I try it, just to show: 'I bet quite a few Americans can use a keyboard, I think some of them even write software'. Please note I wrote this to show some of you how insulting you are, not to be taken literally. But that won't stop anyone, I suppose..

Sebastien 01/25, 09:08pm

"Fairplay is available on Mac Os X and WIndows thru iTunes, not just iPods"

Name me which other players support Fairplay 'out of the box' ie. no transcoding required, just transfer the song as puchased from iTMS to said players, because I was talking about Fairplay not being supported on other players, nothing about OS's (I clearly said that)

bhuot 01/25, 09:16pm

It is funny that you use the term schizophrenic although incorrectly as it is a split between reality and perception, not between 2 personalities. And the funny thing is that I have paranoid Schizophrenia and yet my argument is the most logical out there. And yes I use open source software and release my own content with a creative commons license with no DRM. The reason why we have DRM is because people steal music - get them to stop and they will stop the DRM. I guess that is why I am not an anarchist - I believe is is wrong to break the law and steal. I guess people think stealing is fine until they create their own music, writing, or artwork and then they always want the most protection possible. As I said before it is a free market and having hundereds of hours of music is not a right its a luxury. Think of all the people starving together in ther third world - they don't even have computers. And there are plenty of otther DRM free music out there - if you feel that strongly then fight for your belief by making a sacrifice. Don't tell everybody else how to run their lives.

ronjamin 01/25, 09:19pm

The same ole Euroweenie socialist bs. Why aren't they punishing Microsoft the same way?

bhuot 01/25, 09:24pm

The reason why they are going after Apple and not Microsoft is because it is easier. They don't have the gall to really use all open source software in their countries. If they did, then Apple sales would be irrelevant to them and if they still cared I would support them. Microsoft has gotten together with the open source movement on this and is providing the funding. For some reason many open source people hate Apple because Apple doesn't open source all their software yet they put up with Microsoft because they can't give up their video games.

lamewing 01/25, 09:35pm

This constant Apple-fanboy nonsense of suggesting that a customer of iTunes burn and rip the music to mp3s is bunk.

1. The sound quality degrades even further than what a 128kbps AAC file can produce.

2. If you buy singles and don't rip back to iTunes you loose all the metadata of the songs and are forced to input all the song info as the CDDB won't be able to recongnize a burned CD with random singles on it.

3. The TIME and ENERGY required to do this is unacceptable. I bought close to many, many songs off of iTunes Japan so that I could test out different jpop bands and it ended up filling 10 CDs, which all had to be riped back to iTunes.

I have given up on this idea and have since started using yesasia.com after a year hiatus.

NOTHING good comes of this "fairplay" nonsense other than Apple getting rich.

bhuot 01/25, 09:45pm

"NOTHING good comes of this "fairplay" nonsense other than Apple getting rich."

No, its about Microsoft getting rich. Microsoft has fiinally been beaten by Apple because they have found a product to sell that people care about it. The only reason why these Microsoft European fanboys are going after Apple is that Microsoft can't find another scam to get a monopoly in yet another market. How many billions does Bill Gates need to make him happy?

bhuot 01/25, 09:49pm

"The TIME and ENERGY required to do this is unacceptable. I bought close to many, many songs off of iTunes Japan so that I could test out different jpop bands and it ended up filling 10 CDs, which all had to be riped back to iTunes."

So its about convenience for the richest 20% of the population - its not about a cause. People sacrifice for causes, they don't complain about inconvenience. Would it kill you to go a week without music?

Flying Meat 01/25, 10:09pm

This action is bogus on so many levels. First, and foremost. you are not required to use an iPod for music from the iTunes store, since you can rip that music to mp3. Second, you are not required to use the iTunes store with the iPod since mp3 is supported in the iTunes software (which, if I recollect, is FREE!)

Anybody remember mp3? Contrary to what ophiochus says, mp3 encoding at it's least compressed state (hmmmm. flexibility you say?) is not crappy. 90%, maybe even higher, of the humans alive will hear no difference.

Flying Meat 01/25, 10:29pm

If you "build a better mouse trap" (please, no references to your being a mouse), aren't you allowed to promote that product and potentially corner the market?

It's not about Apple getting rich off you. That would be impossible, though I haven't seen your income statements... Apple is also NOT charging exorbitant rates for the tunes. Witness the grumbling and complaining of the record companies about not being allowed to set rates for big hits, and lower rates for, well, not big hits. Remember the promises about the high price of CDs when they were first being promoted? You can bet that there would be few current faves available for less than a dollar if the record companies had their way. That would kill iTunes store sales, then of course, Apple's market for iPods. Hey! Howz about you give everyone the right to use your house anytime - all the time?

I usually disregard posts charging "fanboy" this, or "fanboy" that, but it is getting pretty tiresome to hear these microslop drones chime in with little knowledge and less real information, but boatloads more bile.

unclelar 01/25, 11:08pm

The euro pee ins aren't going after Microsoft because Microsoft doesn't sell the Zune in Europe, thereby avoiding this whole problem.

Songs purchased on iTMS can be played on other players - any authorized Mac or PC with iTunes installed. Lug your laptop. Nobody said it had to be convenient.

The simple solution is to just shut down the iTunes stores in France, Germany, The Netherlands, Norway, Sweeden and Finland. Apple does't make much money on the songs, it is only a convenience to drive iPod sales, and let the consumers buy their music someplace else. If those countries want things to be less convenient for their citizens, let them see how that flies in the next elections.

my 2 cents worth

NordicMan 01/26, 02:12am

I wrote a decent and friendly letter to the Ombudsman of Norway the consumer ombudsman.

Is is necessary for the Norsk to have to get their music through iTunes? Will Norway force Sony or ms to make their services open? If not, why not?

How about making ms media player to work really well with Macs?

Perhaps Apple will end up making there to be no DRM. That would not bother me.

Will Norway force the music companies to get rid of the DRM?

I reckon one thing that is a plus here for Apple, and that seems to be that Norway regards Apple's service to be desirable enough that they can not seem to live without it.

Where was this fellow when ms was seeking to make windos the de facto OS on so many pcs?

russellb 01/26, 03:26am

If you don't like itunes go buy your music somewhere else.

If you want to use Itunes go buy an Ipod

I dont get the problem ... Apple went to the trouble of doing what no one else could do .. make a great music download service that people like... all credit to them

No one forces people to use Itunes

Geordiekeith 01/26, 04:27am

As a European I also don't get this. Just to the extreme case of if you buy from iTunes you have to use an iPod (and not going into CD burning). Well is that different from wanting to playing DS games so you have to buy a Nintendo. Of course most of these games are also available for other platform, but if you have a PSP you have to buy the PSP game - where is the difference from iTunes?

zeonlyone 01/26, 07:34am

who doesn't get it. What an utterly stupid reaction of these so-called ombudsmen. I can burn CDs, I can buy the same songs from other stores. I can use iTunes without my iPod. What do they want exactly (all these crybabies): use iTS with their cheapish mp3-players ? use their iPods with shoddy on-line stores ? Or is it about the revival of piracy ? Coming soon to a website near you: "Pirates of the Scandinavian"

nat 01/26, 08:09am

this "fanboy" term. like the right wing, you only have to dismiss anything left as "liberal nutjobs", "left wing c***", on an on. no discussion necessary, no civil discourse required. not worth taking about, it's "left", that's all you need to know. if you microsoft "fanboys' can't discuss the issue without dismissing all opposing views as mac "fanboys' then do us all a favor and go reboot your pc and run some anti virus software. at any rate i'd sure as h*** rather be a mac "fanboy" than a microsoft apologist.

and testudo, you ever think of maybe just posting your points/counter points without the personal attack? other arguments are always made by morons aren't they? i'd tell you how you've been lied to all these years, that your mama did raise a fool, but that'd be a personal attack and i'm above it.

testudo 01/26, 10:45am

...is how many of the "You don't have to buy it from Apple" and "don't use an iPod" crowd would say the same exact things if it was MS and the Zune that were being attacked by Norway. Would all you be spouting how its MS's right to do music and player together as one? Would you be bemoaning the OpenSource lefties who permeate these countries as trying to do in MS because they're trying to make a buck (or a Euro, if you will)?

Somehow I doubt it...

And why exactly does everyone think the european governments are nothing but shills for MS (as opposed to the American gov't, I'm sure)? Europe is the only place that has actually taken MS to task. They're the ones giving them grief over Vista, Windows/IE/WMP integration, monopolistic practices, etc. Yet, when they go after Apple, its all how they just can't get away from MS. Yeah, nice to live in that world you guys live in.

Of course, what's really amazing is that there's so many people on MacNN who really gives a rat's a** about Norwegian copyright law and how it affects music download services.

nat 01/26, 11:27am

my dear testudo, most of the comments here are about why apple is being singled out on this and not napster, etc in their closed system (specifically why they don't have to be compatible to mac's). the general arguments is that what's good for the goose should be good for the gandor. i doubt anyone is saying that apple can do it but microsoft can't. quite the opposite. that, however would not play into your general nastiness about the people posting here would it? seriously, what is your problem?

Roehlstation 01/26, 11:40am

Keep in mind we're not talking about just ipod/itunes here. We're talking about all limitations this brings. Even if you have a mac, an iPod, use iTunes, etc, you're still stuck right there. If you want to listen to your iTMS music on your stereo, you've got to get some other special device from Apple (Airport Express) or connect your computer directly to your stereo (because everyone has those two right next to each other). Apple controls everything about where you can and can't listen to that music.

There are at least a dozen ways to connect your computer to your stereo that doesn't require an APE. PodHome for instance and other wireless transmitters, as well ast WiFi solutions from Belkin and Linksys. Apple's solution just works best, and it has nothing to do with the system being opened or closed at that point, the other guys' stuff just isn't as good. The same thing will happen if Apple is forced to open up to other players, yeah, it'll work, it just won't work as well, thus ruining the experience.

bhuot 01/26, 11:57am

"Europe is the only place that has actually taken MS to task."

Not really. If they really want to break Microsoft, they will stop using its software and outlaw Windows and Office. They are not just breaking some bizarre local copyright laws that no one else int he world has, but they bribe people and use scams to ge their market share. They have never gotten a sale honestly. When you switch to all open source software for Europe, then I will support your cause against Apple. Until then you are either very lazy or have a very poor understanding of computers if you can't hit a couple buttons to "liberate" your music so you can post your MP3s to file sharing networks.

Roehlstation 01/26, 01:41pm

Outlawing Windows and Office is NOT the answer, a company will not grow and learn if it is forced to do things by law, evolution needs to come from the audience, the users, the company needs to listen to what the customer needs. These law suits in Norway and the Netherlands have nothing to do with the customer, it is all about some company calling "No Fair!" if you ask the people in these countries what it is they want, you will see that the vast majority likely doesn't have an issue with how it is working now, likely a lot of them have iPods and don't really care.

testudo 01/26, 02:38pm

my dear testudo, most of the comments here are about why apple is being singled out on this and not napster, etc in their closed system (specifically why they don't have to be compatible to mac's). the general arguments is that what's good for the goose should be good for the gandor. i doubt anyone is saying that apple can do it but microsoft can't. quite the opposite. that, however would not play into your general nastiness about the people posting here would it? seriously, what is your problem?

And what makes you think that what Norway is pursuing would not apply to Napster, Microsoft, et. al. They're "going after" Apple because they are the biggest at the moment. You don't go after the little guy and then say "See, we did this to 'Fred's Music Store' and their two sales, so now it applies to Apple and their 6 billion!"

You make your stand with the big kahuna, and then force the others to fall in line.

But the napster argument doesn't hold water, since you're not forced into a vertical market of "Buy from Napster, use only a Napster player!". You can actually buy from Napster, have a choice of media players, and, I believe, a choice of media management software.

testudo 01/26, 02:48pm

There are at least a dozen ways to connect your computer to your stereo that doesn't require an APE. PodHome for instance and other wireless transmitters, as well ast WiFi solutions from Belkin and Linksys. Apple's solution just works best, and it has nothing to do with the system being opened or closed at that point, the other guys' stuff just isn't as good. The same thing will happen if Apple is forced to open up to other players, yeah, it'll work, it just won't work as well, thus ruining the experience.

The reason they don't work "as well" (which is laughable, since there really isn't anything on Apple's option to not work well, its just a wireless link and cable - no remote, no visual interface, not really much of a solution truth be told) is because they have to hack around the Fairplay blockage. If Fairplay were licensable by vendors, I'm sure there are one or two companies out there that could make a solution that works well.

And I read the argument that Apple must keep Fairplay closed to protect the whole experience. But if others are coming up with 'solutions' that work, yet 'ruin' the experience, does that just cause people to become dissatisfied with just the crappy solutions, or, at some point, will they become dissatisfied with Apple for not allowing others to play nicely with them.

bhuot 01/26, 02:51pm

"Outlawing Windows and Office is NOT the answer, a company will not grow and learn if it is forced to do things by law, evolution needs to come from the audience, the users, the company needs to listen to what the customer needs."

Microsoft doesn't care about what the customer wants. People buy Windows because it is cheaper than Linux because vendors are illegally forced by Microsoft to charge for Windows even on computers that come with Linux pre-installed even when they don't get Windows like myself. Microsoft only does the right thing for the customer when it is court ordered.

bhuot 01/26, 02:57pm

"Would you be bemoaning the OpenSource lefties who permeate these countries as trying to do in MS because they're trying to make a buck (or a Euro, if you will)?"

I am an open source lefty, so no I am just attacking people without common sense

"They're the ones giving them grief over Vista, Windows/IE/WMP integration, monopolistic practices, etc"

No, fining Microsoft hundreds of millions of dollars a day is like the library fining people 10 cents for overdue library books. And it is equally ineffective. If you really wanted to punish Microsoft, you are going to have to outlaw Windows and Office. When you do so, then I will support you going after Apple.

bhuot 01/26, 03:04pm

"If Fairplay were licensable by vendors, I'm sure there are one or two companies out there that could make a solution that works well. "

Creative had an mp3 player before Apple came out but still didn't support the Mac. In fact, none of the other solutions for digital music support the Mac. These are closed systems - go after them first. I don't see a need to inflate Bill Gates ego and billions at the cost of the consumer.

"But if others are coming up with 'solutions' that work, yet 'ruin' the experience, does that just cause people to become dissatisfied with just the crappy solutions, or, at some point, will they become dissatisfied with Apple for not allowing others to play nicely with them."

No, the only one dissatisfied with the status quo is Microsoft. People understand what they want in a music player and Apple makes a better product. They can get the same thing from other sources, but unlike people being clueless about computers, they care about music and will not put up with the c*** Microsoft produces.

nat 01/26, 03:25pm

testudo, there you go again. i haven't taken a stand on anything, i was merely pointing out the general tone of the arguments on here and your lame a** personal attacks in your replies. yet you read into that that i've taken a side. au contraire. i'm just sick of your often excellent points mixed with your adolescent demeanor. your points can't stand on their own unless you trash mouth another poster? take a course in debating. you'll learn the lowest form of debate is the personal attack, and it's only effective in politics and right wing news organizations. you can reason, let the reasoning stand on it's own and stop the whining about other posters.

gskibum3 01/26, 03:36pm

This reminds me of the people that would whine and complain that czble TV was a monopoly before satellite arrived.

As though cable TV was the only way to be entertained. Instead, one could go to a movie theater, rent a movie, read a book, play a video game, play scrabble or monopoly, go for a walk...

iPods and ITMS are but one choice for entertainment.

Cubester 01/26, 03:43pm

Don't you guys get it yet? Please don't encourage such behavior

Roehlstation 01/26, 03:50pm

The Solution Apple provides is better than a simple wireless link because you can control which zones it is being played to. I have 3 APEs in the house so I can can play to any of the zones individually or to multiple zones, so there is a solution there, not just a dumb wireless link. And Apple's DRM has no effect on how it works. You can use a remote with it also.

Roehlstation 01/26, 04:02pm

Quote: And I read the argument that Apple must keep Fairplay closed to protect the whole experience. But if others are coming up with 'solutions' that work, yet 'ruin' the experience, does that just cause people to become dissatisfied with just the crappy solutions, or, at some point, will they become dissatisfied with Apple for not allowing others to play nicely with them. :end Quote

Steve Jobs made the statement reguarding this already. By opening it up the quality will decrease, the other players would need to maintain a certain standard to work with the DRM. Apple cannot simply remove the DRM, that HAS to be there, licensing to others will leave it up to the others the make it work with the DRM, those players do not have the underpinnings in place to do so. So they'd have to duct tape some solution together to get it to work and it just wouldn't work all the time with every vender the same way. Those people buying those players will complain that Apple's software stinks when in fact it is the player keeping it from working just right.

You have to remember than Apple simply cannot open it up, the others have to use the same standard, Apple doens't want to risk things not working because of that. After all iTunes does support other players they went that far, it would be up to the player makers to do what it takes to satisfy Apple to liscense it to them. Perhaps Apple isn't keeping it closed as much as no one has come out with a Player that Apple wants to agree to open it to.

Deal 01/26, 04:23pm

I can buy music on the ITMS and listen to it on whatever I want. It's easier to burn a CD with iTunes than it ever was to buy a cassette tape and play it somewhere else.

I can also buy music anywhere else and listen to it on my iPod (okay, Microsoft is a little more restrictive and I'm not sure I can do that with their music�case in point).

So, what is really the problem? They can't do it all in one click?! Step back and look at the big picture. This is much more likely a sour grapes scenario. I wouldn't doubt that all the people who are making a push against Apple have some vested interest in the outcome.

I agree we have biased opinions here, as it should be as it is called MACNN. Be aware, opnions on the opposite are just trolls trolling:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_%28internet%29

Flying Meat 01/27, 10:07pm

testudo.

I hope the more vocal amongst the testudo bashers are actually reading his posts, because I have been. Not everything testudo says can be considered trolling. Either ignore what you believe to be trolling, or honestly address the issues he brings up, for reader enlightenment. Much of testudo's perspective deserves to be addressed honestly, no less than your own. (...unless he says "fanboy" :P ;)

Perspective is a witch!

rlaan 01/29, 04:46am

Being a native citizen from The Netherlands I'd like to comment about a number of things mentioned here...

1) In a lot of European countries the locking in of services along with a product (as a bundle) is not legal. For instance, our cell-phone system is like that. You can get a totally free phone (zero dollars) bundled with a (usually a two year) carrier-subscription. Usually the phone is not sim-locked but if it is, it is not illegal to unlock your phone and stick in a different sim and use another carrier instead. It's the consumers choice. The subscription you bought the phone with will still goes on for two years. Usually the subscription adds up to about 200 euro's (thats when you don't make any calls) (US$ 260,-) and the 200 euro's in itself is calling credit, so you'd be rather dumb not to use that. So although you are free to use any alternative, it usually is more expensive. In Belgium for instance even the bundeling of a phone with a carrier in this way is illegal. You have to buy a phone, you have to subscribe to a carrier, seperatly.

2) Knowing the above it is quite easy to understand why Microsoft was sued by the EC government for close to a billion euro's because they wouldn't get rid of: Media player in Windows, make it difficult for other that M$ software to run, etc. Just Google, you'll see the reasons.

3) People in the Netherlands like iTunes, and the iTMS. But they'd like to be able to plug in any music device in their computers and play the music they just payed one euro for (US$ 1,29). Since you payed for the music you should be able to play it anyware anytime with ease, not with re-rips. Just like the phone, stick in a sim and it should work, it's the carriers problem they give them away for free, thats what a free market does.

In my opinion: You'd be dumb not to use the iPod, because that simply works better, and sounds better. But the possibility to use an alternative shouldn't be too difficult even for people who have a hard time using a computer in the first place. I wonder if Apple will be able to bundle their iPhone with a carrier here in Europe. Probably the only way is to make the carrier more competitive by adding services for the iPhone other carriers do not have. In every other way Apple will have to unlock the phone.

Roehlstation 01/29, 07:55am

Hmm...Steve mentioned nothing about the iPhone coming to Europe at all.

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