It looks to me that all these ristrictions are political and nothing more. Seems to me that Cingular needs this device to grow new contracts and apple needs cingular to grow new market at the end the OS or its apps for that matter are all in apples courtyard and not cingulars... Apple may have not intended to bundle any other apps other then those currently published on apple.com... Key partners mean lots of potential for growth and Jobs is very smart with logistics and what needs to happen in order to make that happen... I am sure each missing app is missing for a reason - hint hint they may be pending new partnerships to beef up the growth factor which to me seems like a wise business move... As a consumer it pisses me off but I do not see any other alternatives in this case... what would I wait to buy? an Apple iphone or a treo? ... I rest my case. Apple with all its riches is very carefull and detail oriented when releasing anything new.

Funny, I was showing my old Treo 600 to a prospective buyer (just bought a Treo 700p) and the thing crashed twice making a phone call. This was on a hard reset, no additional software system too. I loved my old Treo and I love my new one. But they do crash, and they are far from perfect. The iPhone is not the convergence device for me, I need to run my medical software so the Treo is the better solution, but I have no doubt the iPhone will be a HUGE success.

iHope that when iPhone will come to Europe it will drop some of those restrictions or at least Apple will allow to buy approved 3rd party applications to run there. Beyond what iPhone already does I need just one: Skype.

that may be the case for your Symbian phone. I wouldn't know because I don't own one, but I can say for sure that Jobs is right on the mark if you're a Treo user. On my 650, I've seen many apps that can s**** with proper operation of the phone including crashes and hangs. Maybe you've just been lucky with your phone because anytime you've got an underlying OS, there's a good chance that someone can write an app to make it hang or crash.

This is true of any software. But crashing your phone is not what Jobs said or implied (people crash their computers all the time, its the nature of things). Jobs says its closed so that nifty app you put on your phone cause Cingular to see their West Coast network go down because some application messed up. That would imply the iPhone is so freakin' powerful that a wrong keystroke could bring down the global comminication system!

But we're also supposed to believe that, as long as we don't have any third-party apps, the phone will never hang, crash, lose data, or cause other issues? Yeah, right! And the same, I'm sure, is for OS X, too!

Sorry, but Steve's talking out his a** on this one. Next thing you know, he'll be saying that the iPod should only accept music from the iTMS, and you'll be sucking it up like it was gospel...

the more I think about it the worse this sounds.

Yes, I've seen my Uncle's Palm 6xx series Fudged up due to accessory software, but this is, after all "OS X" (and Palm suks eggs IMO).

Yet, I have Sailing Clicker on my Sony Ericcson T637...

This just isn't right that in this day and age they can't harden the phone as well as the system it would interface with to reject aberrant clients...

BLAH!!!!!!

...why a closed platform isn't going to lose them much business.

Firstly, I think most people will see this as a phone, not a PDA. I don't think people will be clamoring to install Pocket Quicken or whatever. Also, it does have Safari, which means there will be some access to web based applications (price and bandwidth aside).

Second, security. There aren't many viruses/trojans/etc for smartphones, but I'm sure Apple doesn't want to worry about someone installing some bluetooth worm on their device and the bad press that follows. There's also all the headache of application signing for third party software and the infrastructure that comes with that, which Apple avoids.

Not saying I'm against an open platform, but as a consumer, I don't care about this at all, and I get the feeling I'll be in the majority here.

"most people will see this as a phone, not a PDA"

Odd, I alsmost consider it a PDA first and phone second. It's a palm top computer with network access via either cellular networks or wi-fi. Has anyone stopped to think that maybe this is the reason why Apple scoffs at the idea of a tablet PC? Perhaps Apple has just lept a generation of computers and went straight to the future. The phone is just the Trojan horse.

Remember Apple's ads for the first iPod? "A thousand songs in your pocket." Now it's "A whole computer in your pocket."

Firstly, I think most people will see this as a phone, not a PDA. I don't think people will be clamoring to install Pocket Quicken or whatever. Also, it does have Safari, which means there will be some access to web based applications (price and bandwidth aside).

That's ridiculous. Because if you're looking for a phone first and foremost, you're an idiot to spend $500 on one when you can get one for a lot less money. The thing costs alot because of all its features, and that's why people will buy it, not just because its a phone.



Second, security. There aren't many viruses/trojans/etc for smartphones, but I'm sure Apple doesn't want to worry about someone installing some bluetooth worm on their device and the bad press that follows. There's also all the headache of application signing for third party software and the infrastructure that comes with that, which Apple avoids.

Why would they worry about viruses and trojans? Its based on OS X, and all I hear about that is how there's no viruses for it becuase of its inherent security.

And who wants or cares about application signing. Its a joke, anyway, and requiring it just brings in the chorus of "They're locking out the small developers!".

Who exactly are these "experts," what are their affiliations, and what are their qualifications to speak on points of law?

Red herring more precisely: there is no real reason for the entire system to be closed; any portion of it could be sandboxed to addressed real issues. Cingular simply doesn't want to risk the possibility of real innovation happening on their network without ensuring that the profit is exclusive to them. We've all seen how the telcom industry works, and doesn't work. It's amazing that Apple got one of them to play ball at all, and its almost a certainty that they insisted that Apple be as hostile to openness as they are. Well, if iPhone does crack them, then something else will. No industry can be as anti-customer oriented as the telcoms and survive for long. Just look at that overweight guy from Cingular on stage with Jobs at Macworld. What a visual for the industry. Too lazy to memorize a boring speech, bloated and out of touch with the audience. Why did he even bother coming? It was obvious he didn't really give a damn. I'll take lean, fit, proactive, interesting, and in -tune Apple anyday over the U.S. telcoms. Hopefully, Apple will just establish their credentials with this Cingular affiliation and then buy up some smaller carrier and do it right the second time.

to me at least is I don't see Apple offering any time soon three key features that I currently get with my Nokia E70 (Symbian OS).

One is instant messaging... Why the h*** doesn't this thing have iChat built-in!!! Talk about lame and stupid. I suspect the reason why is because with WiFi, there isn't as much need for SMS, which Cingular can charge for. On my phone, I chat all I want via a hotspot or EDGE and not have to worry about a charged SMS per reply.

Second, Skype support. Again, Apple isn't likely to offer this any time soon. And while I don't use it that often on my phone, its nice to know that it is there.

And third, gaming. I can fully emulate a GameBoy Advance and SNES on my phone, so gaming is almost limitless. On the iPhone, not so much.

The main point here is that if the system were open and there is an app or feature not available directly from Apple, then this could easily and quickly be added by a third party. This is pretty much the main reason why I won't be getting an iPhone 1G, at least until someone has found a way to easily crack and installing small apps is possible.

"That's ridiculous. Because if you're looking for a phone first and foremost, you're an idiot to spend $500 on one when you can get one for a lot less money. The thing costs alot because of all its features, and that's why people will buy it, not just because its a phone. "

Sorry, but you really don't know the marketplace. Look up the high end Nokia phones. Not the blackberry-like devices, not the Communicators, not the other phones-with-keyboards. Just the high end smartphones that have a number pad and no stylus. Now look at the price. They run Symbian, and they're "open". And they're still phones first. And my assertion was that if you closed those phones off to outside development right now, most of those owners probably wouldn't care. I might be wrong about that, but you didn't really refute my point, you just called buyers of expensive phones stupid.

"Why would they worry about viruses and trojans? Its based on OS X, and all I hear about that is how there's no viruses for it becuase of its inherent security.

And who wants or cares about application signing. Its a joke, anyway, and requiring it just brings in the chorus of "They're locking out the small developers!"."

The tone of this is borderline hyperventilating, so I can't tell if you are really being serious. No platform is bulletproof. And whether or not Apple would do certification/signing - The point is, the platform is closed, and the issue is sidestepped completely.

Last, I asserted in the same post that most people probably don't care about the issue. I haven't heard anything to make me think otherwise. Apple is a company that competes with its third party developers all the time. Now they have a platform where they don't even have to compete. I don't like it much when it happens on the desktop, but on a personal device, eh. Virtually none of the millions of iPod owners out there care that they the iPod isn't an open platform. All people care about is that it does what it's supposed to do, and does it well. If the iPhone is going to be successful, it's going to be for that very reason.

Maybe it would be better to go for the Open Source iPhone: Neo1973 running OpenMoko http://www.linuxtogo.org/gowiki/OpenMoko/iPhone

>How can it be that I can load my Symbian OS phone > with all sorts of "open" sw and it hasn't effected > my call quality?

Because your 'call quality' is dependent on the network you're on.

Your ability to make and maintain calls is dependent on your phone.

I have a symbian phone as well - a Nokia N73, in fact. I really like Nokia. The N73 is probably the best of their phones that I have used/owned.

Nevertheless, it tends to reset/reboot when I try to pick up an incoming call; it tends to freeze when I am instant messaging - and I have a handful of extra apps installed. These problems are greatly reduced when I remove these apps. Subsequent firmware updates do have contributed to clearing some of these issues up, but some still persist.

The point is, using an Apple product is all about the experience being seamless and troublefree - and while some restrictions are political (the ringtones issue), others are practical (why the iPhone, RIGHT NOW, is rather closed).

Let's face it, the phone has limited resources (4/8gb of storage, limited operating RAM, I'm sure) and cramming more applications in there will have a direct effect on performance.

Did you notice how friggin fast the iPhone did its tasks? Cram a bunch of extra widgets and apps in its memory, and suddenly you'd be one of the first to complain how terribly slow it is, etc...

...and before you jump in how your Symbian phone can have a ton of apps installed without slowing down -- you would be wrong. Install those apps in the internal memory store, and let's see what happens as your phone runs out of elbow room.

Fact is, this is a Generation One product, and Apple has a lot riding on it - and it thus wants to virtually guarantee and control the user experience on the phone.

This doesn't mean that there won't be expansion, or additional utilities and apps for the phone - except initially they will be provided by Apple. My guess is that one of the first apps to make it on there is a version of iChat that integrates with the conversations via sms - my only hope would be that it should support other IM providers like Yahoo and MSN as well (since Yahoo is now on board with iPhone, it may).

Either way, you people should stop bitching if Apple doesn't support your personal priorities, as there are very good reasons for these restrictions, RIGHT NOW, and as the iPhone procedes to dominate the market, Apple will adapt and adjust to open the phone further, I'm sure.

> The tone of this is borderline hyperventilating, > so I can't tell if you are really being serious.

Ignore testudo - the guy has a huge chip on his shoulder when it comes to Apple and Apple products. No idea what rubbed him the wrong way a long time ago (maybe he got kicked out of a show, or something), but you can, by and large, ignore his comments.

Testudo has something to say and it's worth reading. You may not agree with it but at least have the bottle to read and understand someone else's point of view without having to resort to personal, off-topic attacks.

As to what jasong said about his Treo 600 - maybe I got lucky with a later model in the production run or something. I've never had any problems with it dropping calls/crashing while calling.

The only problem I have at the moment is that the earpiece just stops working from time to time.

I think the iPhone looks pretty neat, but I think I can see a few problems with it. It's great to think that you can use a phone like that without a stylus, but I genuinely thing the reality is different. For instance, I can use my Treo without a stylus (at least some of the time), but in fact my fingers are too big to really do that (they tend to get in the way of what I'm trying to see) - a bigger/higher res screen may help that, but it's not going to eliminate it. Additionally, I could see smeary finger prints on the QuickTime stream from Jobs' keynote - so you can imagine how dirty/scratched those screens are going to get over time.

Two real things missing for me to take it seriously too - no removable card slot (every sensible phone has these) and no iChat (as pointed out above, who wants to keep paying for SMS?).

Also, how about a removable battery?

A locked-network phone is a caveat, but a locked-platform phone is a total deal-breaker for me.

If I'm paying $500 for a cell phone, and I have to sign with Cingular exclusively to use it at all, and I can't put my own ringtones on it without shelling out even *more* cash, by god, I had better be able to run a human brain on it if I write the software to do it.

I guess I'm waiting for something better to show up the Apple phone. I'll buy that instead. Maybe it will be an Apple product, but whatever.

All that aside, if one cell unit could take out the Cingular network, the world would be a terrifying place. That's a total red-herring (right-on, debohun).

The real problem in all this is Cingular/AT&T... This company is in whole the real fait oder I smell.

I bleed in 6 colors and have since 84 but I will not be getting one and will be looking seriously at LG's KE850. http://www.engadget.com/2007/01/11/iphone-and-lg-ke850-separated-at-birth

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"You need it to work when you need it to work. Cingular doesn’t want to see their West Coast network go down because some application messed up."

That's bologna. While a 3rd Party application might crash your handheld, it will not crash teh West Coast network, otherwise Cingular would not be selling Palm OS, Windows Mobile, and Symbian devices like mad. This cannot be a Cingular decision. This is an Apple-we-must-own-it-all decision.

I bet iPhone 2 will be open. They just don't want to risk it on the first one.