In fact a more relevant analogy would be "Can Ford force you to only use Ford fuel in your car even though the fuel comes from the same refineries as every fuel brands?".

As for the effect of this law, since it would not be used only against the iTMS but against *every* stores and players, it could just precipitate the end of the DRM systems... which would be a very good thing indeed! :-)

You give too much credit to the French government: it is only capable to extort money from its own citizens!

To h*** with the f**king french and their bullshit laws. They're always a pain in everybody's a**. Lazy a**, constantly complaining bunch of peasants. Shut the iTunes store in France, and let em live with the local c*** they produce. Bloody French F**ks

"In fact a more relevant analogy would be "Can Ford force you to only use Ford fuel in your car even though the fuel comes from the same refineries as every fuel brands?"."

Sorry think you have it wrong in the above...

It is more that Ford provides a type of fuel, for those that want to purchase it, that can only be burned in Ford brand cars. The Ford brand car is still able to burn fuels from others just fine unless those others don't want to allow it.

"The DRM is gone but not the watermarks, it still has the signatures of the owner."

What watermarks? To my knowledge Apple does not place any type of watermark in audio you burn from iTunes even for those burned from iTMS. Do you have any verification for the claim of a watermark existing?

I thought the Record Companies were leary of online-music stores because if there was no DRM in place, it would just make piracy easier.

Although burning a CD then ripping it gets rid of the DRM (Always thought this was too easy), I'd think the Record Companies would use laws like this if passed to slowy back out of online stores???

http://osdir.com/Article3823.phtml

Everything from the iPod, PC and the file is watermarked, other formats do this to. For myself i find that the DRM is protecting me, if my iPod gets stolen and they put my songs on a P2P network i'm the jerk via the watermarks. It basically more protects the user than restricts it, thats my view on it.

they also have laws agains using non-french words in their language. Ah, c'est la vie.

You implied in your original post (in relation to another post) that an audio CD burned with an iTMS song has a watermark in it. Nothing in what you linked implies that to be the case.

Audio CDs burned from iTunes, with or without an iTMS song, do not contain any type of watermark.

The French (as usual) just want their own s*** to thrive so they're making it so French companies can steal iTunes and then sell them that way French only buy from French, which is always what they wanted anyways.

Then they'll have their own French iTunes store and oust the Apple one.

The French try and do this s*** all the time.

Watermarks in a AAC file won't magically be removed when you burn it to a CD, that would be a tad to easy. You need to do much more than that.

This link is the best i can find at the moment on Google but trust me, its not that easily removed especially if you want to keep the sound quality. http://www.prorec.com/prorec/articles.nsf/articles/5FD509CAB6D19AF78625679F005A6023

While that article from June 1999 was informative, Nobody's doubting the possibility of watermarking.

We're suggesting that Apple isn't doing it. It's not in the agreement describing their DRM, and if they did do it, and try to use it as evidence to get a warrant or at a trial, they'd be farked and have major lawsuits to deal with.

I know about audio watermarks but again nothing in what you referenced states that Apple is using an audio watermark. If you have information about Apple actually using an audio watermark please provide a reference otherwise it would be best to not claim they are doing something that they likely are not doing.

While the prorec article is interesting, it fails to address two things

1) The original point in question: Does Apple, without users knowledge, embed an identification of that user in files burned to the Audio CD format.

2) Digital-Analog-Digital conversion of the Audio file with any existing DAC converter should yield the watermark worthless EXCEPT when the watermark reduces the quality of the recording.

There are lots of ways to watermark an audio file, however most of these involve placing erroneous data in the audio stream which is skipped through the magical process of oversampling.

To defeat oversampling in replication of Digital sources in an analog conversion workflow the watermark application MUST alter data in either single large areas or multiple medium sized portions of the digital stream. Degradation through analog resampling, short of holding a microphone up to a speaker, is not severe enough to remove data which would adhere to this scheme. However, this is neither CD quality or undetectable because the altered data in this 1:1 quantized non-interframe quantized stream is stripped unless it appears to the most discriminating DAC set as sound. If it is altered sound to the point that it is reproduced, it is also something so significant as to be heard.

In order to prove part 1, one needs to take an aac, burn it with the playlist system, convert it back to an aac, duplicate that file, run jhymn (when/if compatible) on it with the atom stripping commands in the console, then run a compare on the files. If you can't strip an atom that could be stripped before it probably IS NOT THERE.

I know users would be extremely displeased if they found out that 1) their file wasn't the same as the cd version in composition , 2) their personal identifier was placed in an audio file without their knowledge. Many people burn and toss audio cds because they don't have an mp3 player in their car is the onus on the user to shred information for which they have no knowledge of the presence of personal information in order to release themselves from liability for theft or identity theft? Show me a case where this has helped Apple identify an 'AIFF-verter'.

As to the 'French'...if it was 'cool' to be French I'm sure you'd be the first ones saying 'my grandmother is french'.

You can't attack a national law without some understanding of their body of law. In the US we have to take into account foreign law in rendering any judgement. There are far reaching implications of this move, but nobody is going to get rich from it. It is more likely a response to the DADVSI law:

SInce I'm sure many of you are familiar with VLC, how about actually reading the top of the page?

http://www.videolan.org/eucd.html

"Author Rights and other Rights in the Information Society"

This was news first because it is simila

ar to our idiot rights act that prevents fair use. Want to watch a movie on your external dvd player that has an mpeg license on linux? Sorry, can't do it. No PLF. Want to use VLC because something doesn't open in QuickTime? Sorry, you're circumventing something you did not even know existed.

I think this is a t** for tat response. vis: if you take away the ability to go around copy protection for fair use, then we will legislate away the protection.

I WISH the American politicians had the testicular fortitude (ovarian for some) to have presented this option when the DMCA and any related spawn from h*** came out.

In context, this makes French politicians look like brass balled testosterone factories protecting the pubic and doing their job...and our politicians a bunch of greedy eunichs..oh wait guess that IS reality.

I'm glad to see this. While the US Government is pretty much controlled by corporate interests (DMCA, etc), it is good to see some governments in a capitalist nation are willing to stand up for their citizens and not the corporations.

For those just saying "get an iPod", no thanks. I prefer choice, you know, that same thing Apple lovers typically say when in a discussion about an operating system. Since Windows is the dominate desktop OS, using the same logic, everyone running OS X should run out and get a Windows PC. The iPod still doesn't do hierarchal playlists, something I prefer on any player above 5gb.

For a country that proclaims it is the "land of the free", we do sure seem very restricted in so many ways in this digital era. Want to watch that DVD movie you bought on your iPod? Sorry, thanks to corporate pushed laws, it's illegal to do so. But I guess some people enjoy this, since they are bashing the French here for trying to give their consumers rights.

What is it with all this moaning about the french. It appears to me that there's lots of apple lovers here who actually are afraid that, if left to capitalistic forces, people would start buying non iPods to play their iTMS music, And that scares people because then Apple would not be market leader anymore.

I mean, why else would someone complain about such a law???

I agree with drakino.

As a consumer I want the ability to choose. But I don't see why I have to get an ipod just so songs I purchased from itunes would work on it. To me an ipod is an overpriced and underfeatured player only popular because of good marketing promotions.

The proposed law, as I understand it after reading several different accounts of what it actually says, will in absolutely no way force Apple to open up the iTMS.

A quote from this article is relatively accurate, "The draft law, which is expected to be voted in parliament on Thursday, would enable consumers to legally use software that converts digital content into any format..."

The law will allow anyone to strip the DRM off media. Supposedly it is ONLY for thier own use on alternative players.

However, we all know that once DRM is stripped without loss in quality it is *extremely* likely that media will be posted online.

France is doing nothing more than foolishly supporting the pirates.

1. You can burn iTunes songs and put it on any mp3 player. So what the h*** do you need a law for?

2. Who told them they have to buy from iTunes music store. No one is forcing them to buy music from iTunes.

3. shut the f*** up about DRM, if you want convience of downloading music instantly this is the price you have to pay or use eMusic.

You have a choice. What a bunch of a*******.

1. I need a law so that the most basic customer does not have to use such an awkward way to do what s/he has already paid for (in France, like in many other countries, when you buy any kind of media that can me used to store music -- CDR/RW, DVD±R/RW, hard disk, tape, video tape, MP3 players...-- a tax is leveraged to compensate for loss of revenue and to allow private copy). By the way, when you will have 2000 DRM protected songs (whatever the DRM scheme) and decide to change your player, will you be happy to have to burn all the songs on maybe 80-100 CD and ripped them to MP3? Good choice indeed!

2. I think you are too emotional: the law would apply to all the music stores, including the ones that use MS DRM. The point is nobody forces them to buy from the iTMS nor from any other online store. So the choice is get it from P2P or go out and buy the whole CD. Good choice indeed!

3. No, at least not in all these countries where the customers pay a tax to allow for fair use. You can't have your cake and eat it: it's either the DRM or the tax, not the two of them at the same time. And if you think it's a good trade off, good for you! I don't think it is because it removes faire use and it should not even be legal because fair use is protected by other laws. Note that this is the same with VHS protected tapes and DVD. Anyway, if DRM was really "the price to pay for the convenience of downloading music instantly", it will probably backfire at so point in the future. And when enough customers will have lost confidence in online stores, the choice will be made for everybody. Good choice indeed!

It’s funny how a few months ago you’re all whining about DRM, and how you want to play your iPod tunes on your gizmo3000 - ‘that’s fair usage after all!’.

Now the French want to put that into law and you’re all ‘feck them’.

okay, what is UP with that image? a screened back French flag, the iTunes icon, and a can opener. it's like trying to read a rebus puzzle.

The iPod had an overwhelming market share for MP3 players, both in hard disk based and flash memory based (The iPod Shuffle and iPod Nano) players.

Seems to me that the French are going after the wrong market -- namely, the 5-10% market share.

Personally, I've configured the "other" brands of players for my customers that didn't buy an iPod and the user's experience with them has been less than stellar.

Simply put, the iPod's interface is much better than what I've seen on other players. Just my $.02 here.

Apple should just close the French music store. Otherwise they would have to change their whole quicktime format to work on other devices. This would cost much more than the revenue that store makes in France.

The iPod has become so popular I don't want one. It has features I don't need and the fact that iTunes wants me to use their AAC codec, which won't work on my TiVo or car stereo OR my DVD player, isn't FAIR if you ask me. I still export to MPEG and MP3 data that needs to be shared across all platforms so I know without a doubt that it will indeed play. I think the French are doing the right thing, and that my next MP3 player WILL NOT BE an Apple iPod, it will be a Media Phone, and NOT by Motorola either.

You are not forced to use AAC. Buy a CD from a brick and mortar store and rip it yourself using any ripping software you want and copy it to any device you wish. Complaining about being forced has no merit in your argument. There are other choices. I know your smart, but think before you say something silly.

wow. I just did'nt know you could just burn and rip the itunes store songs to remouve the DRM..so as to convert them to MP3...nice! burning as we type!

This is a win for French law makers but a loss for their people, but who cares. I got one for you, why not make legislation that requires all French people to stop being snobs.

This is a Good Thing®, if Apple doesn't kill the iTMS in France as a result..

I actually think it's far more likely that the RIAA (or the equivalent in France) will cite contract obligations that will force Apple to kill the iTMS in France....

This is less important to music, than it is to Video, IMHO... transcoding DVD content to an iPod friendly format (or PSP, laptop, etc) made plainly perfectly legal, period. People with two brain cells to rub together can already burn their iTMS tracks to CD and re-rip... This law just makes that perfectly legal, without *any* gray area/doubt... Hey it could even make the DRM on next-gen HD discs moot! (at least potentially)

Time to start writing our congress-critters, and push for similar legislation over here ...

Think BIG PICTURE people!

jwd

Hi there !

Saying "You have to be able to download content and play it on any device." is untrue — a parliamentarian's minority opinion expressed in public.

I repeat : UN-TRUE.

The french law doesn't allow any kind of DRM violations. However yesterday, an article of law was voted. It prohibits the production and the use of P2P software. To my point of view : I suspect a handling to make react certain companies as APPLE. Anyway an article of law is not valid as long as a decree was not signed.

Cheers. And Apologies for my poor english

There is a real argument to made that suggests that DRM is illegal under the United States consitutution, but that corporate interests will prevent it from being outlawed.

If I buy a book, that purchase allows me a great deal of fair use freedoms, I can read the book aloud to my child, I can lend it to a friend, I can copy some of the contents to a file for personal use, and I can resell the book to another person.

Allowing corporations to implement restricitve DRM schemes removes many of these presumed uses, and makes illegal some seemingly obvious things. Did you all realize that by describing how to circumvent the DRM on Apple's iTunes tracks, you've violated the Digital Millenium Copyright Act, and could be liable for several million dollars in damages? The law clearly states that not only is making software to enable copying a violation, any attempt to circumvent those restrictions is a violation, as is any description of a method.

I would recommend that everyone who cares about culture and fair use read Lawrence Lessig's 'Free Culture'.

We're on a downward spiral here, folks. And our nation's influence over other countries (both by political influence and coroporate influence) is leading to a future where copyright owners will have the legal and technological ability to tell you what and when you can read, listen to, view, etc.

Open standards for files formats are the only logical path, and laws that limit the ability of corporations to control fair use are the only meaningful solution.

The French are on the right path, but it's a small step in a long journey.