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Apple: Mactels won't support Vista

updated 09:20 am EST, Fri March 10, 2006

Vista won\'t support EFI

Apple yesterday confirmed that its new Intel-based Macs are unlikely to offer support for Windows Vista. At the Intel Developer Forum in San Francisco, Apple's senior software architect Cameron Esfahani explained that the new EFI architecture was only supported by the 64-bit version of Windows Vista and that Apple was only using 32-bit Intel chips in its new Macs. Silicon.com reports that while EFI can support older software and hardware, Apple has not included much of the "legacy" code in its EFI implementation. "Windows is a legacy OS," Esfahani said, to laughter and applause from the crowd. "We don't have legacy support." EFI (Extensible Firmware Interface) helps manage the startup process until the operating system can take over. In addition, the first versions of Windows Vista will not offer any support for the EFI architecture, according to APCMag.com. Users, however, have been somewhat successful in running Windows on Mac using a variety of emulators.

by MacNN Staff

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legacyb4
Mac Elite

Joined: May 2001

0

03/10, 09:25am | report spam | close Reply |
Who cares?

as long as there is a robust, stable virtual PC available that can run every other OS on an as needed basis...

bobolicious
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Aug 2002

0

03/10, 09:35am | report spam | close Reply |
The final STRAW !!!

3 major platform transitions in 6 years (classic anyone?)

PC access was my BIG HOPE for Apple!

Arrogant b******* - businesses CAN'T depend on their bloody computers - face facts macs have LIMITED USEFULNESS despite being superb at some things...

Watch the stock tank now...

SAFARI can't even browse the fricking web properly - (I have FIVE browsers on my mac & STILL have to keep a PEECEE for business website access) so what kind of business can survive without access to what is now the status quo for information?

Opportunity LOST yet again...

Skeptik
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Feb 2006

0

03/10, 09:35am | report spam | close Reply |
I Care

I bought my Apple confident (given the promises to support EFI) that I would able to run some reasonably fast form of MS Windows. If Microsoft and/or Apple knew this was not going to be the case then we have been mislead. MS are stalling on their emulator and have not released an update for Office - is there some collusion??Someone from Apple should come clean.

ClevelandAdv
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Jul 2004

0

03/10, 09:54am | report spam | close Reply |
Macs and Windows

Wile Mactels will not support BOOTING in Vista you can certain that VPC or a VMware type product will be functions sooner than later. This is preferable to booting in Windows because most Mac users do not want to boot in Windows but occationally run windows apps. If the stock drops because of this....get more stock.

itguy05
Forum Regular

Joined: Apr 2005

0

03/10, 10:02am | report spam | close Reply |
Idiots

"Arrogant b******* - businesses CAN'T depend on their bloody computers - face facts macs have LIMITED USEFULNESS despite being superb at some things... "

Please. I Admin a 200 server, 2k user Windows Active Directory infrastructure (along with 2 others) and I can use my Powerbook (and have) for my day to day operations.

So, tell me how businesses cannot depend on Apple's computers. Heck, the 5th largest computer company manages just fine, and they even run SAP and PeopleSoft....

"SAFARI can't even browse the fricking web properly - (I have FIVE browsers on my mac & STILL have to keep a PEECEE for business website access)"

No issues here and I'm all over the web. I use Safari or FireFox - prefer FF, but both do an adequate job.

"I bought my Apple confident (given the promises to support EFI) that I would able to run some reasonably fast form of MS Windows."

So, you bought a machine with the intent of running someone else's OS software that is not even released yet. Real good strategy. Just return the thing or sell on eBay.

I still don't get it - MS already supports EFI on 64-bit vetsions of Windows and Vista. What's the big deal about including it on the 32-bit version?

Or Apple F-ed up with the Intel transition. Should have went AMD who has REAL 64-BIT CPU's that outperform these new core things right now. Then you could be booting XP on your Macs......

eddd
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Dec 2001

0

03/10, 10:07am | report spam | close Reply |
this is certain:

After Intel releases the next gen CPUs (64-bit), this will be done quite easily. There will be hacks from Germany or Sweden that will enable it. I think this might be a bit of public positioning on Apple's part, since this is certain to happen in time.

Dakota Kid
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Apr 2005

0

03/10, 10:09am | report spam | close Reply |
skeptik

"I bought my Apple confident (given the promises to support EFI) that I would able to run some reasonably fast form of MS Windows. If Microsoft and/or Apple knew this was not going to be the case then we have been mislead. MS are stalling on their emulator and have not released an update for Office - is there some collusion??Someone from Apple should come clean."

The only comment from Apple about being able to run Windows was that they would do nothing to prevent it. They made no promises that there would be an officially-supported way to do it.

Like itguy05 says, why isn't Microsoft supporting EFI on the 32-bit Vista? That seems odd.

Anyway, as others have said, it is far more desireable to run Windows in some sort of fast emulation rather than to have to reboot. People are already doing it using QEMU already. Just hold on for a while and there will be many ways of running Windows apps.

JMA
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Aug 2005

0

03/10, 10:36am | report spam | close Reply |
Pretty naive, "skeptik"

Buying a Mac "confident ... it would be able to run ... Windows" was at best a leap of faith.

Apple has NEVER promised its hardware would run Vista.Company statements on the matter always made me think they were discouraging people from expecting native support for any flavor of Windows.

And where's the evidence that Microsoft is "stalling" on anything? Apple only announced its Intel transition plans nine months ago; Mactel hardware has only been shipping for a couple of months, ahead of schedule. Rewriting big complex apps for a new hardware architecture takes time. Or are Adobe (Creative Suite, etc.) and Apple itself (Final Cut Studio, etc.) in on the collusion, too?

Microsoft's past practice has been to leapfrog development of the Mac and Windows versions of Office, staggering the releases for each platform, most recently with Office 2003 for Windows and Office 2004 for Mac. Microsoft is now focused on its next release of Office for Windows, set to dovetail with the releas of Windows Vista later this year. In the meantime, Office 2004, the latest-greatest (or "-greatest") shipping version of MS Office on any platform) runs fine under Rosetta.

Frustration is understandable, but don'y lay it at the feet of a vast conspiracy.

yoyo123
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Sep 2002

0

03/10, 10:55am | report spam | close Reply |
What's the problem?

I simply do not understand why people are so fixated on using dual boot systems. I have personally used many dual boot systems in the past, before virtualization became so popular. I can tell you, they are clunky and a pain in the behind. So we cannot boot into Vista or XP. Who cares. Wait until VMware releases the Mac versions of their products. Not only will we be able to run Vista or XP, we'll be also able to run Fedora, CentOS, BSD, Solaris, and just ANY operating system INSIDE MacOS X at the SAME TIME. No need to reboot the computer. Need to run an old Windows 98 application. Simply, launch VMWare, install Windows 98, and your off. Best of all, NO emulation. Everything will run at native speeds.

Some of you might prefer Dual Boot systems over Virtualization. Personally, I do not understand that. On my PC, I have Windows XP running with CentOS running inside VMWare. This allows me to do my web development on my Macintosh, upload it to CentOS, and test it on BOTH XP and my Mac at the SAME TIME. My only complaint is that I cannot ditch the PC entirely. If I could, then I'd be able to run all three Operating Systems at the same time on the same computer.

So for those of you who are upset about not being able to setup a dual boot system. I say , give virtualization a chance. It's the best way to go overall.

aristotles
Grizzled Veteran

Joined: Jul 2004

0

03/10, 11:04am | report spam | close Reply |
I really don't care

I honestly do not care. If VMWare is ported or we get another piece of software with similar of better performance, I will be able run the odd piece of software that I cannot get on the mac.

There are enough popular games on the mac. We don't need crappy games that never sell many copies anyway.

jarod
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Apr 2005

0

03/10, 11:10am | report spam | close Reply |
Best News

I don't want that GARBAGE running on my Mac in the first place.

And as for bobolicious (above); just admit it...you're a bloody idiot. Trust me, you'll feel better once you accept that fact.

suhail
Senior User

Joined: Nov 1999

0

03/10, 11:14am | report spam | close Reply |
Dont believe it

I do not think MS would make Vista a 64-Bit only OS. Almost all their users are on 32-Bit.

jpellino
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Oct 1999

0

03/10, 11:27am | report spam | close Reply |
bobo...

outside of windows live beta and sites dependent on WMV, what are all these "business websites" are you using that safari can't get to? the bank sites are pretty much all resolved now, it's the site's choice to support apple or not (they all seem to support other wintel browsers), and there is a built in "Report bugs to Apple" in the Safari menu that has pretty much been the thing that has allowed apple and competent web authorts to work together and get these resolved.

mosatch
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Jul 2005

0

03/10, 12:17pm | report spam | close Reply |
No macbook for me

I think there are a non negligible number of potential customers that want a dual boot mac, myself included. At the end of the day, Apple has decided that there aren't enough of us to make it worth the investment to include legacy bios support in their efi implementation. The beauty of being a customer, you don't have to buy the company's c*** (and that's my opinion of the new macbook, one button mouse, camera, no modem. For what kind of business/pro user is this a good combo). Other wild-eyed macophiles can rant all they want about how dual boot is pointless: I for one will be speaking with my dollars and desires and drop out of the mac world after 20+ years. Apple needs to actually cater instead of dictate to customers.

boomw
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Nov 2003

0

03/10, 12:24pm | report spam | close Reply |
6 Flavors M$ economy

My thing is that Microsoft has never been in the PC business as much as they have been in the capitalism business. They've pretty much created their own economy. If they aren't going to do 32bit for Vista, doesn't that imply one of the largest scale refreshes in the IT biz? Plus there are at least 6 flavors of Vista coming out. My (again an assumption) theory is that will mean subtle requirements differences amongst the different versions. It also means that Microsoft, and all the IT people that support, write, and train techs will be looking forward to a boom in new certifications, titles, and seminars. I want to know where the money for all of this is going to come? This seems like an ideal time for Macs and Linux to swoop in and commandeer everyone's existing hardware with better, cheaper, faster offerings. -> That's a dream, I know it; but, it could happen. To the boboTroll: blame the developers who make websites that don't work on Safari, it's their fault not Apples. Even Microsoft itself is leaning more and more towards standards compliance, albeit a day late and true CSS2/3 support short. See here: http://tinyurl.com/95ojcThey are making an effort and I am not above giving them credit where it's due.

SiliconAddict
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Feb 2006

0

03/10, 12:29pm | report spam | close Reply |
Won't keep Windows....

from running indeed. Apple is pretty much an outright liar at this point. They knew there were more then a handful of users who were getting a MBP in the hopes of dual booting. Instead of coming out and saying that there is enough of a difference in EFI to keep most legacy versions of Windows from running on their system. (Because they themselves removed the compatibility functionality out of EFI even though it would have been trivial to leave it in.) Instead they knew they would sell more MBP's by neither confirming it nor denying it. The company is no better then Microsoft in this instance. Slimeball marketing at its finest. And don�t tell it it wasn�t marketing. The exec that stated this isn�t an idiot. They had to know that one of the biggest questions would be can Windows run on the thing. This was a well crafted manipulative answer. I know of 3 potential switchers that dropped their order for the MBP about a week ago simply because its pretty obvious that Apple tweaked their hardware JUST enough to keep windows off the system. If it wasn�t for the fact that I�ve done a c*** load of migration already, that I would incur a MAJOR restocking cost, and that I really don�t want to go back to XP, I�d prob return my MBP and wait for a 64-bit Core Duo to come out. This is really a large yield of BS Apple has put out. In the end it only hurts them. The potential sales loss is going to be large. REALLY large. I can not tell you how many people I�ve had in my office quiz me on if this thing can dual boot with Windows. Actually I�m somewhat surprised they even know what dual booting IS. At best all they can hope for is the performance degraded virtualization of XP inside OS X. This will no doubt be fine for average apps but people can forget high end gaming like Civ IV that eats up and spits out video cards for lunch.

SiliconAddict
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Feb 2006

0

03/10, 12:38pm | report spam | close Reply |
*coughs*Civ*coughs*IV*cou

"There are enough popular games on the mac. We don't need crappy games that never sell many copies anyway."

Yah right. *coughs*Civ*coughs*IV*coughs*

Its scheduled for sometime this year with bugs and all for its 1.0 release. (We still don't know if it will even be UB out of the gate.) In the mean time the Windows version is running smoother and smoother as it gets the kinks worked out. I've been playing IV since its release day. This is NOT a "crappy game that never sell many copies". There is a reason why the game has an alarm clock built into the game. It�s literally that addictive.

I hear they have wonderful medications for denial now a days, because the reality is there are a TON of good games on the PC that aren�t on the Mac and aren�t on a console let alone a portable console like a laptop.

yoyo123
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Sep 2002

0

03/10, 12:49pm | report spam | close Reply |
Re: silliconaddict

True Virtualization is not the best alternative for gamers. But who in their right mind would buy a Macintosh laptop and EXPECT to play high end games on it. That's not what a laptop is designed for. Nor do I know of a single PC user interested in getting a Mactel specifically for the misguided ability to dual boot.

Virtualization is and will continue to be the best alternative for any user wanting to run more that one OS on a computer at the same time. How many people do you know who continue to dual boot their PCs? I know of only a handful and those are people dual booting XP and Linux.

As far as performace being degraded by virtualation software. I do not and have not seen any performace degradation in my XP/CentOS configuration. It runs perfectly and seemlessly, and I would not expect any less once the Mac Version of VMWare is made available.

Stevesong
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Feb 2006

0

03/10, 01:01pm | report spam | close Reply |
from 64 to 32 bits?

What interests me here is that Apple advertises the G5 desktops as a 64bit machines. Does "progress" now dictate using 32 bit processors. Hopefully this will not be true of Mac Intel desktop machines - - I was looking forward to being able to access more than 4GB of RAM per application with 64 bit machines and apps. (I do extensive AV work).

chris m.
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Mar 2002

0

03/10, 01:20pm | report spam | close Reply |
kind of a bummer

Isn't BIOS a near 30 year old technology that goes back to the CP/M days? I think it was right for Apple not to include support for it... it's like asking them to include ISA slots on their new Power Macs (or Mac Pros, whatever they'll be called).

It's unfortunate that Microsoft will not include EFI support for 32 bit Vista. I was under the impression that, for the first time in the history of the PC (the one based on the original IBM PC, that is), they could eventually move away from BIOS. Looks like that's not gonna happen.

Virtual PC isn't really going to cut it - all of the other elements of the hardware are emulated. Hopefully something like VMWare will work well.

bobolicious
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Aug 2002

0

03/10, 01:53pm | report spam | close Reply |
Let's just see...

...about websites or programs that won't run on a Mac (or Wintel Mac) or Safari, assuming a business might want information or perhaps to open an archive pending an audit or administrative issue:

- the Ontario Building Code CD (pc only) - NeoOffice 1.2 (won't open Wintel at all) - OpenOffice 2.0 (pc only) - TorontoMLS website (all 5 mac browsers fail) - Quickbooks with bank download capability (just this yr) - Quicken Home & Business (invoicing option pc only) - Skype video (tba) - Sweets catalogue & most construction supplier CDs - Virtual PC (forthcoming when?) - All legacy OS-9 apps (many peripherals orphaned with X) - all classic apps ie MYOB, multitimer pro, pagemill, etc) - forms at http://www.towaterfront.ca/ - try http://www.tirino.ca/Genesis.htm

The list goes on & on & on... Almost every day I seem to hit some website issue... Plug & pray I say...

At least if I could run XP at full speed I'd have a backup in one box...

bobolicious
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Aug 2002

0

03/10, 02:00pm | report spam | close Reply |
...and on a personal note

...try the webcams at: http://www.craigleith.com/ http://www.bluemountain.ca/winter_webcams.htm gee I'm glad I have a peecee... :(

ScottEllsworth
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Sep 2001

0

03/10, 02:00pm | report spam | close Reply |
Try to think

Apple said they would not prevent it, and they have not. They followed the EFI spec, and chose not to implement the legacy BIOS support. Given that they have no old BIOS-based software to support, this makes sense to me.

If you want to know why Vista does not run on an EFI-based 32 bit machine, ask Microsoft.

Scott

dozx
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Joined: Nov 2005

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03/10, 02:59pm | report spam | close Reply |
People are confused

I think that the people making comments that they are upset that intel Macs won't boot Windows are confused. I think that most of them saw "intel Macs won't run windows". The confusion lies in the fact that people think that's it period, the mac won't run windows. They don't fully understand that booting Windows and and actually being able to run windows are 2 diffrent things. Trust me people you will be able to run windows within OS X at least as fast as current PC's using the same hardware. The reason is because there is no hardware emulation going on here. You are all cring about nothing......

testudo
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Aug 2001

0

03/10, 03:22pm | report spam | close Reply |
Wait!

I thought I was reading on these boards about all these people who had all these PC-loving friends who were drooling over getting a mac now that they could run Windows. Now its all "not a big deal". I just love how the wind blows to make everything insignificant.

ibugv4
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Jun 2003

0

03/10, 03:49pm | report spam | close Reply |
bobolicious...

I do understand your problems with some websites. H&R JUST THIS YEAR supported Firefox on any platform for online efiling. However, you should take this issue up with the sites and NOT the software maker. I emailed H&R about my problems filing my 2004 return, tax time 2005 I could file with FireFox. They listened. This isn't Apple's fault, and Apple doesn't want to just sell MacBooks and not the OS.

Also, if your still using a legacy app it's just time to bite the bullet and upgrade. PageMill? ARE YOU SERIOUS? Even when it was a nativly running app is was craptastic, yet free, grow up to a better WYSWIG editor like Dreamweaver. better yet shell out for BBEdit and code like the real pros (and I can back that up with several SAS employees). Cut and died: you have some legit complaints but your preaching to a choir who complied to the EFI, Web and other STANDARDS and the sites you wish to go to DO NOT SUPPORT THESE STANDARDS. So lets complain to the standards-abiding software maker, instead of the site's creator who isn't following standards. I mean, it's like hitting a pothole in NYC and then trying to sue Audi for NOT making their suspension capable of handling a NYC pothole. NO you send the repair bill to the city, because they failed to repair the street and in most likely scenarios you would be unable to avoid the impact (and a good lawyer NEVER hurts).

testudo
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Aug 2001

0

03/10, 06:41pm | report spam | close Reply |
Re: bobolicious

I do understand your problems with some websites. H&R JUST THIS YEAR supported Firefox on any platform for online efiling. However, you should take this issue up with the sites and NOT the software maker. I emailed H&R about my problems filing my 2004 return, tax time 2005 I could file with FireFox. They listened. This isn't Apple's fault, and Apple doesn't want to just sell MacBooks and not the OS.

Of course, shouldn't you also be complaining to these nimrods for killing OS X support for their product, forcing you to use their crappy web site or their crappy windows version in order to do your taxes. (Sure, you could use Turbotax, if you wanted to spend an arm and a leg).

just a poster
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Jun 2004

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03/10, 09:42pm | report spam | close Reply |
Microsoft is a $300B

company. It can afford to support Macs with 32-bit Intel chips and EFI.

Why should Apple dumb down its hardware to make it compatible with Wincrap?

JEB
Junior Member

Joined: May 2001

0

03/11, 01:00am | report spam | close Reply |
Hack: Windows on a Mac!!!

It's official: Windows boots on a Macbook Pro

http://www.mathcaddy.com/windowsxpbootsonamac%21%21%21%211/

and

http://osxbook.com/book/bonus/misc/vmware/

JEB
Junior Member

Joined: May 2001

0

03/11, 01:05am | report spam | close Reply |
ps it's a Dual Boot sys

(link above for Dual Boot . . . tee hee)

ApeInTheShell
Senior User

Joined: Nov 2002

0

03/11, 07:54pm | report spam | close Reply |
fitness made simple

This is not an unfortunate event and I give no pity to those who were expecting a rival operating system to run on Mac hardware. Windows users do not understand and apparently neither do 'experienced Mac users'. You choose a Mac because of its operating system and software. Many of you seem to forget the limitations on the Mac platform are primarily because of third party developers that do not use standards. They make their own format, codec, syntax, script, and application that is Windows only because it is supposedly better. I say it is time to move on and be Mac users again.

bobolicious
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Aug 2002

0

03/12, 08:43am | report spam | close Reply |
of many sites...

...I contavted (including Craigleith, Peaks & Blue Mountain) only one has bothered to address compatability - Apple users represent 3%-5% of the market so why should ANY 3rd party really care?

Apple on the other hand could offer compatability to a market share increased by perhaps 30x - I would assume Steve feels he has enough money & Apple has production issues with many product introductions so the point may be moot...

It is however funadmentally a one to many relationship - and the more efficient route is to enable macs, as much as many mac fans would love to 'change' the pc-centric world...

There are things I like about both platforms that seem better than the other's - ironically it might actually benefit the mac fans to dabble in the 'dark side' if curious...

debohun
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Feb 1999

0

03/12, 03:17pm | report spam | close Reply |
Growing the market for HW

The chief reason I can identify for Apple's failing to include legacy support as a business error is that it doesn't allow them to sell their high-end, luxury hardware to Windows users. There is a small, but not insignificant number of electronics afficiandos out there who would buy Apple's tre cool equipment just because it looks good in their office or living room. What should Apple care if they decide to run Windows? It is still a hardware sale and that is where Apple claims it makes most of its money. Offering operating system flexibility on Apple's system can only expand Apple's hardware market, not shrink it--and this will only make the company more relevent as it goes forward.

yakirz
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Oct 2001

0

03/13, 06:38am | report spam | close Reply |
What is wrong with you?

"I bought an Intel Mac with the express understanding that I'd be able to run Windows natively."

The have machines for that, they're call "peecees." Who buys the top of the line gaming PC and then says they bought it because it runs OS X on PearPC almost as good as a low end G4?

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Apple: Mactels won't support Vista

updated 09:20 am EST, Fri March 10, 2006

Vista won\'t support EFI

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Who cares?

The final STRAW !!!

I Care

Macs and Windows

Idiots

this is certain:

skeptik

Pretty naive, "skeptik"

What's the problem?

I really don't care

Best News

Dont believe it

bobo...

No macbook for me

6 Flavors M$ economy

Won't keep Windows....

*coughs*Civ*coughs*IV*cou

Re: silliconaddict

from 64 to 32 bits?

kind of a bummer

Let's just see...

...and on a personal note

Try to think

People are confused

Wait!

bobolicious...

Re: bobolicious

Microsoft is a $300B

Hack: Windows on a Mac!!!

ps it's a Dual Boot sys

fitness made simple

of many sites...

Growing the market for HW

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