I've been using OS X for five years. It's not as keyboard friendly as Windows, sorry. This extends from the OS itself to applications.

For example, in Word for Windows, word count is ALT + T + W. There is no way to get that from the keyboard in the OS X version.

In Photoshop, Save for Web is ALT + F + W. There is no keyboard shortcut in the Mac version.

And on and on and on. Maybe if you were as familiar with both as OSes as I am, you'd understand why this was so, even with full keyboard access turned on. It's not just different, it's not as good on the Mac. For people that use a mouse extensively, I'm sure this isn't an issue. But for me to be productive as possible, my hands need to stay on the keyboard. Every time you reach for the mouse, you slow down.

Paul

I responded:

Heh, you give examples from two applications why the OS is not keyboard friendly. As I mentioned it's up to those applications to decide which command to map to shortcuts. This isn't a good argument that the OS is less productive, merely one that certain apps are less productive. Either way, it's not true...

I use both OSes daily in my work and at home, I use keyboard shortcuts frequently as much as possible.

By the way I found this in 20 seconds by searching the Microsoft Word help for "keyboard shortcut", I just configured a shortcut to do word count:

Tools>Customize>Keyboard, Select the ToolsWordCount feature, assign new shortcut.

In PhotoShop another 20 seconds searching the help for "keyboard shortcut" found that, you can customize shortcuts by going to Edit>Keyboard Shortcuts (or just press command-opt-shift-K), however there's already a shortcut configured for Save For Web, it's command-opt-shift-S, (perhaps this is new to PhotoShop CS, but older PS have the ability to customize Keyboard Shortcuts). In any version if you don't like the one Adobe decides, you can change it.

There you have it, with 40 seconds of searching the help for "keyboard shortcut" I just made you much more productive on Mac OS X!

Perhaps you can pad your word count in part 3 of your article with a description that though Mac OS X has different keyboard human interface, it's not less productive.

Also, I'm happy to help you out in any other ways you find Mac OS X less productive with the keyboard.

Here's what Paul responded to my email:

I've been using OS X for five years. It's not as keyboard friendly as Windows, sorry. This extends from the OS itself to applications.

For example, in Word for Windows, word count is ALT + T + W. There is no way to get that from the keyboard in the OS X version.

In Photoshop, Save for Web is ALT + F + W. There is no keyboard shortcut in the Mac version.

And on and on and on. Maybe if you were as familiar with both as OSes as I am, you'd understand why this was so, even with full keyboard access turned on. It's not just different, it's not as good on the Mac. For people that use a mouse extensively, I'm sure this isn't an issue. But for me to be productive as possible, my hands need to stay on the keyboard. Every time you reach for the mouse, you slow down.

Paul

So the marketing slogan for Vista will be: And you thought XP sucked!

This guy doesn't know s***. These Windows people get so stuck with Windows that they can't see anything else. I'll give up my Macs when they pry my dead cold fingers from around them.

I've ever seen shows Mac users way more productive than Windows users. Way more.

I think what he means is "...and that means *I* can be far more productive with Vista than is possible with OS X, cause I'm already familiar with Window's shortcuts"

Here's how I replied:

Heh, you give examples from two applications why the OS is not keyboard friendly. As I mentioned it's up to those applications to decide which command to map to shortcuts. This isn't a good argument that the OS is less productive, merely one that certain apps are less productive. Either way, it's not true...

I use both OSes daily in my work and at home, I use keyboard shortcuts frequently as much as possible.

By the way I found this in 20 seconds by searching the Microsoft Word help for "keyboard shortcut", I just configured a shortcut to do word count:

Tools>Customize>Keyboard, Select the ToolsWordCount feature, assign new shortcut.

In PhotoShop another 20 seconds searching the help for "keyboard shortcut" found that, you can customize shortcuts by going to Edit>Keyboard Shortcuts (or just press command-opt-shift-K), however there's already a shortcut configured for Save For Web, it's command-opt-shift-S, (perhaps this is new to PhotoShop CS, but older PS have the ability to customize Keyboard Shortcuts). In any version if you don't like the one Adobe decides, you can change it.

There you have it, with 40 seconds of searching the help for "keyboard shortcut" I just made you much more productive on Mac OS X!

Perhaps you can pad your word count in part 3 of your article with a description that though Mac OS X has different keyboard human interface, it's not less productive.

Also, I'm happy to help you out in any other ways you find Mac OS X less productive with the keyboard.

Will lines form at midnight for first adopters to purchase VISTA = Vastly Inferior System To Apple ¡Hasta la vista?

Windows Vista is just as similar to Mac OS X like a transvestite is to a real woman.

In Word for OSX, you just look at the bottom of the screen to see the word count....

I came back to the Mac two years ago when I bought a 15" Powerbook. I think that the Mac is truely the sweet spot of computing today, but I'm with the author's comments regarding keyboard useability. I think the fact that Apple finally released a two button mouse only last year just highlights this.

What I like about Window's keyboarding is not really the shortcuts, but the fact that the alt key allows you to serially choose each menu item, control, button or input field. I don't have to hold down three keys at one time to choose some seemingly 'random' combination, I just look for the underline and press that key and look for the next one. To me the cool thing about this it works for all applications even ones I'm not familiar with. Plus since all applications do have a file menu, the basic commands like Alt, then f, then x or p are indeed universal.

I think the problem with computing today, and this seems to apply to the Mac faithful more and more lately, is that it is becoming far too bigoted. Personally I miss the days of Byte Magazine where they were into computing for computing sake. Indeed, given the basic slant in the PC world, it is no wonder that the Mac faithful have to be vocal, but to go to the point that we have to degrade anything that is different brings us down from being informed to merely being a partisan player.

That's my take on this,

-spartian

ummm

according to my menu, Save for Web... has the keyboard shortcut of: Command-Shift-Option-S

The way that Macs are usually more intelligent about keyboard shortcuts is that they all revolve around single keys, with added modifiers. For instance:

Command-S: Save Command-S+Shift: Save As Command-S+Option: Save As A Copy Command-S+Shift+Option: Save As Web

I don't know what relation the F and W keys have to "save", but that's windows for you.

the form removed my formatting.

I'd be willing to admit that perhaps Windows has more keyboard shortcuts than OS X. But saying it equates to being more productive is like saying PCs are cheaper because the initial price is less...and we all know where that arguements ends up as far as TOTAL cost of ownership.

So a small percentage of power-users who have memorized all the Windows keyboard shortcuts can be a little more productive when DOING WORK. But how much productivity is lost on Windows before you even get around to doing work (securing your system, downloading virus updates, reinstalling the OS, rebooting mutliple times a day, fixing hardware conflicts, dealing with low-quality hardware [granted, not MS's fault], etc)? Sure, there folks out there with rock-solid Windows boxes that never crash or need rebooting, but who's maintaining them and at what cost? Can the average user expect the same level of reliability and OVERALL productivity?

"In Photoshop, Save for Web is ALT + F + W. There is no keyboard shortcut in the Mac version. [...] But for me to be productive as possible, my hands need to stay on the keyboard. Every time you reach for the mouse, you slow down."

Last time I checked, I had to have one hand on the keyboard and one one the mouse (or wacom tablet) to be really productive in Photoshop. Or I use batch jobs, in which case I'm not sitting at my computer at all.

The point is that with Windows you don't have to memorize any keyboard shorts. >> None!

Yeah, we have the current build (5308) of Windows Vista Beta here at work, and all I can say is Microsoft has been hard at work in copying Mac OS X.

First, is the "Windows Toolbar" which is exactly like the dock in function and appearance. The catch, it can only be located on the left and right sides of the screen. The Windows Toolbar even magnifies its icons when you hover over them. Hmm, I wonder where they got that from.

Secondly, when you Alt-Tab between applications in Vista now, you actually see a better representation of the applications on the screen while switching between them, just like the mac.

Thridly, instead of Widgets, (yup, they went here too), they are called Gadgets on Windows Vista.

Fourth, the functionality where you are able to see in Mac OS X a minature version of what is running in your dock has been copied too, to an extent. It's just that in Vista, when you hover over the program in the Taskbar a little window pops up and shows you a little screenshot of what is running. I haven't been able to see if a movie continues to play in this small popup though as does a movie if you minimize it to the dock.

Fifth, they've copied the Expose feature in Mac OS X as well. It is called "Windows Switcher" as it is only slightly different. It puts the open windows in a kind of 3D angle that allows you to choos the window you want to switch to, then once clicked, that window comes to the forefront in an animated fashion. Again, wonder where they got that from.

Of course, there are other little things like the more translucent windows, the glass-like icons, and the Windows symbol representing the start menu (kinda like the apple in Mac OS X). Anyhow, if Apple needs to do anything right now, it is advertise the c*** out of Mac OS X and fast, so that the public knows where the true GUI of Vista came from, and not think that Microsoft is some original maker of software. Unfortunately though, it is probably too little, too late for Apple in this regard.

i always wonder why windows people think keyboard support is better on windows when:

-cut copy paste keyboard commands are different in every app I've never seen cut/copy/paste different in any windows app I've used, except really, really old c*** (most, though, still support other ways, like ctrl-insert and shift-insert).

-common application keyboard commands (prefs, close window, next window, etc) are different in every app

Wait, are you talking about OS X or windows? Most apps I've used don't have keyboard short cuts for prefs, and it seems like every mac app that does is different (and apple's good at s******* this up, too). Close window is always the stupid Ctrl-F4 (unless you're trying to quit, which is alt-F4). Now I do remember MS making "Exit" Alt-X in Word 2000. The most stupidest decision in the world, it was (all other commands use the ctrl key, except quit?).

-no standard for keyboard commands: is it alt- or ctrl-? Well, Alt- hooks you into the menu bar directly, ctrl runs commands (so Alt-E-C to Cut, or Ctrl-X). Its pretty simplistic. However it breaks when apps start binding to all sorts of different command sequences.

However, the same exists in OS X, and actually is a little worse. As if its bad enough that you need Ctrl-Shift-S is Save As, the menus DON'T TELL YOU THIS. Apple uses some lame set of symbols that you have to keep trying to equate to the keyboard, which, BTW, doesn't display these symbols. So users are forced to just "KNOW" that a caret symbol is the ctrl key (not the command key).

-harder to enter éèáçô, etc if that matters to you -the biggie: quicksilver!

Doesn't matter to me, although on OS X you have to, again, learn how to do the mark-ups. But the only way I know of doing it in Windows is through some extremely non-intuitive "Alt-0291" command (because we all know the asc values of the letters we want to type).

Uhm... testudo, Alt- doesn't just take you into the menus. Several apps have a mixed bag of keyboard shortcuts - Windows developers used Ctrl and Alt arbitrarily many times.

Things in MacOS X that I like better about keyboard shortcuts: - they use symbols for the keys. Easy to learn, and it lets the eye easily see the letter of the shortcut when there aren't other letters like Ctrl and Alt beside them. This makes reading it quicker - If you don't like a shortcut or a command doesn't have one, you can change or add one. Apple includes this capability in the system prefs. Not only that, because Apple shipped one-button mice for so many years it forced developers to put all of the commands in the menu bar, so they all can have shortcuts applied to them.

Not so in Windows where in many cases commands only exist in the contextual menu.

... is a Windows shill here to rile the folks.

I'm not sure, but my take on the original article is that the sentence was poorly worded. I think what he might have meant to say was this: If your currently a Windows user you'll still be more productive in Vista then in OS X, despite the OSX-Vista interface similarities. This is a statement I can accept, to each his own. As far as testsudo's comments go, I'm not sure what to say except when I look in Apple menus I am not confused as to what the desired keyboard shortcut is, haven't been since I was six. I'll admit it could be confusing if you're not really that familiar with the platform, but the same definitely applies to Windows as well.

Looks like everybody caught that: "Of course, Windows Vista is still Windows, and that means you can be far more productive with Vista than is possible with OS X, especially if you're a heavy keyboard user like me."

He's a Windows guy writing for windows user, that's fine, but he clearly has no real knowledge of using OS X. Just like there are Mac Zealots, he's a Windows Zealot.

As for Vista looking like the Mac, of course it does, and whatever Microsoft's explanation for that is is bs. M$ has always copied the Mac OS, why would they suddenly not?

Since it takes all of five seconds to go to the keyboard shortcuts pane and add a key combination to any menu command in any application, he obviously isn't aware of all the features built-in to OS X, which pretty much kills any credibility he may have.

The real problem here is that he had to try and get an OS X dig in somewhere. He could've just as easily said, "Windows is still Windows. When moving from XP to Vista the learning curve is minimal and productivity isn't hampered in any way. Especially for those who prefer to use the keyboard to navigate through the system - all the shortcuts are the exact equivalent as their XP counterparts."

I don't know if he's as bad as the above posts say. He spends entirely too much time running down the Mac to be a normal PC user. He's not a Mac user but trolls Mac groups all the time.

I could never be as productive on a Windows PC as a Mac. It takes 3 or 4 steps for every one step on a Mac. I can't see that as an advantage.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. No one is recognizing the obvious. Microsoft is no longer capable of producing an operating system release. They've secretly hired Apple to produce Vista for them.

The clues?

- The Apple move to Intel - why? why now?

- Microsoft's sclerosis - Can you imagine what you would have to do to your OS so the browser could not be uninstalled? Now, imagine trying to undo that.

- Cushioning the blow - MS die hards are now used to the idea that Vista will look like OS X - who would look for the BSD under the hood?

- Leopard vs Vista - compare the release dates. Coincidence?

- Bill Gates practicing his Steve Jobs imitation - He is dying to do that 'one more thing' thing.

- Rosetta - just in time - a rational approach to that legacy software problem. It's time to plug the ratholes.

I'm sure they'll keep the old alt key and some other user interface stuff, but Vista will be a parallel release of OS X, and only a handful of geeks at Ars Technica will ever know it.

He must be over weight and sit on his keyboard.

"The point is that with Windows you don't have to memorize any keyboard shorts. >> None!"

Ummm... you had to remember the ALT key to get you into the menus in the first place, right? In Mac OS X, it's CTRL-F2 (assuming Full Keyboard Access is enabled, whose toggle is CTRL-F1).

While you can argue ALT is simpler, I would counter that by not forcing ALT to open a menu, ALT (Option on a Mac keyboard) is now fully free to perform non-visually-impaired menu tasks.

" What I like about Window's keyboarding is not really the shortcuts, but the fact that the alt key allows you to serially choose each menu item, control, button or input field. I don't have to hold down three keys at one time to choose some seemingly 'random' combination, I just look for the underline and press that key and look for the next one."

All the equivalent key commands are similarly listed when available in each Mac OS app, once you expose the menu.

As others have tried to pound into your head, I will subtly remind you, that Keyboard Shortcuts allows you to redefine as you like, and add those that are "missing" to your taste. AFAIK, you cannot (easily) alter the assigned underlined options in Windows menus.

Now, I will grant that Mac OS dictates "reserved" keystrokes, such as CMD-S, P, X, C, V, etc., but, for $10, you can even override that with Menu Master, whose functions also allow you to change/alter/add/remove keystrokes within an application *ON THE FLY*, without forcing you to the Keyboard Shortcuts Prefs pane, or to quit/relaunch the app to see changes take effect. Very cool.

You teach a new user to ALT, I teach them to CTRL-F2. Each leads to deeper functions; but only Mac OS allows the user to easily, rapidly define what *they* think works for them.

FWIW, I am currently forced to use Win XP for 12 hours a day on average, and I have *STRUGGLED* to become a power user there. Even with the knowledge of where your beloved shortcuts lie, they still at times require numerous shortcuts be entered in order (such as in Photoshop), where just one keystroke can be assigned in Mac. Vastly superior. Period.

Cheers

Frederico

Microsoft has been doing this from day one. Do you ever think that something will change ? Bill Gates has been quoted to have said " this is not the way Apple does it. I want it the same as Apple". This is actually the fault of Apple, Apple "gave away" the rights to the user interface many, many years ago, and they got a Mac version of Office for it.

Frederico,

Thanks for your comments. My second post was cut off and I had to go.

Also, pls remember I'm not really suggesting that anyone buy a Windows computer. I think the majority of the market would do better with a Mac.

However, I was agreeing with the author about the keyboarding aspect of Windows and the particulary good insight to make all controls accessable via the alt key in a serial manner. Frederico your comments and the comments of others reminded me that each of use our computer differently. With my current needs, I use a variety of programs and no one program enough to have memorized anything but the most basic short-cuts. My opinion is that OS X’s short-cuts are a little like holding down the keys ctrl-alt-shift-b-r-a-i-l-l-e (all at once) to get it to produce the word braille as opposed to just typing the letters serially.

Everyone commenting on this same article, seems to think that because you can reprogram your shortcuts or buy utilities that essentially makes OS X better, but my take is this just points to a failure of OS X's design. It makes me wonder, are there as many keyboarding short-cut utilities for Windows? There might be mousing utilities for Windows, but I doubt there are many that provide a secondary means to create shortcuts. I don’t actually know, because unlike my experience on the Mac, I’ve never had a reason to look.

Just playing around with ctrl-f2 and the System Preferences menu item in the Apple menu, I really have to hit three keys all at once: fn-ctrl-F2 and it doesn’t even open the menu. Down arrow, then it looks like I might be able to just hit the s key, but that gets me to shut-down. P looks like it might work, but it doesn’t and I’m just guessing at this point. So my only alternative is to use the arrow keys to correct for my missed guess to open the system preferences.

My point with the alt keys is that it is a serial system, it has concrete feedback and allows upto 36 direct options at any one time. Once someone learns to look for the underlined letters and some occassional oddities, that’s all they need to know for the entire windowed system. So once your press the alt key in Windows, you can scan visually and direclty choose from all of the menus with one key stroke. Then within the menu, you have the same level of control once again. Plus that’s not just in MS Excel or Photoshop; but every program, every version starting with win95 all the way toVista. That’s a really great system.

I think the Mac community is becoming a bit too much like the Zealots when in fact we need to be a bit more like the Romans. I think the author was exactly right on his point about keyboarding and that’s the one thing I miss from Windows. My hope is that Apple has the smarts to adopt something similar. At least they did come out with a two button mouse and provide support for Unix style mice, so ther

I thought I was under the three thousand character limit, but I guess not....

I think the Mac community is becoming a bit too much like the Zealots when in fact we need to be a bit more like the Romans. I think the author was exactly right on his point about keyboarding and that’s the one thing I miss from Windows. My hope is that Apple has the smarts to adopt something similar. At least they did come out with a two button mouse and provide support for Unix style mice, so there’s some hope in this regard.

-spartian

p.s. I will check out Menu Master - Thanks!

Paul Said: "In Photoshop, Save for Web is ALT + F + W. There is no keyboard shortcut in the Mac version."

Uh, I'm using Photoshop CS (not CS2) on my Mac and it's keyboard shortcut for Save for Web is Ctrl+Shift+Command+S.

What's he smoking?

OK, so Windows has the ALT key option for keyboard shortcuts. But has it ever occurred to anybody that most of those are so cumbersome that it would be quicker to use the mouse? And what about the Windows Control key in relation to the Macs Command key. Using the Windows Control plus a letter is so cumbersome it's no wonder that people want to use the ALT key alternative. I've watched people use the Control key shortcuts and it's not pretty. They either hold the Control key with there pinky and then press the letter key with the index finger. Yes, it can be done buts it's awkward. Or the other way is they press and hold the Control key with one hand and use the other hand to press the letter key because it's so awkward. In this manner the mouse is faster. To illustrate how awkward this is with Windows, try this, press the Control key with your pinky now press S for save. Oh it can be done but it's not pleasant. OK, in this case it's better to use your thumb to press the Control key then use your index finger to press the S. But wait! now you have to stop and think which finger is better for what shortcuts the pinky or the thumb! To add even more complexity to this, now what happens if you want to press Control + H? Using your pinky you can reach farther then you can with your thumb not to mention that using your thumb is awkward due to the position of the Control key. So in this case using your pinky to hold the Control key is better than using your thumb. Now just when you thought it couldn't get any more complicated, lets print something! Control + P, sounds easy, right? Nope! know you have to decide whether you want to use the left Control key or the right Control key, your pinky or your thumb left hand or right hand! This wears me out thinking about it!

With the position of the Command key on the Mac next to the spacebar you always use your thumb no matter what keyboard shortcut you use or whether or not you use the left Command key or the right Command key. Another thing I noticed is how a Windows user handles keyboard shortcuts on the Mac. They try and use their old keyboard habits on a Mac and they get frustrated because it don't work. For an example they try and hold the Command key down with their pinky then try pressing a key. Very awkward! Some PC users deride the Mac because you have to press more than 2 keys. For those guys, I ask you to look at a MAC keyboard not a PC keyboard and you will see that many if not all keyboard shortcuts on the Mac that use 3 or more keys. You can hold down 2 keys with one finger. i.e. Command+Option+(pick a key) The Command and Option keys are next to each other and can be pressed at the same time by your thumb. Some may be Command+Shift+(pick a key) while it may look confusing, it's very easy to press the Command key with your thumb and the Shift key with your pinky and still use your index finger comfortably to press another key.

While using the ALT on the PC

While using the ALT on the PC is fine and offers a few things you can't do on the Mac with keyboard shortcuts. Some of the key sequences are so long it faster to use the mouse. Don't forget it takes time to scan all of your pull down menus for the shortcut and the underlined key you want to use. So the ALT key not a end all be all key for shortcuts. I personally find them the slowest way of evoking a command.

You might say I'm making too much out of this, but it's true. Watch other people use the keyboard and you'll see. Even pay closer attention to how you use the keyboard. It will change the way you think about keyboard shortcuts. And you PC guys out there trolling Mac boards, you will see the Mac has the PC beat hands down in keyboard shortcuts.