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Virtualization to drive Apple marketshare?

updated 06:50 pm EST, Fri February 10, 2006

Apple\'s secret weapon

Apple may be holding a secret weapon to double its market share in the desktop computing market, which would make the initial difficulties of switching to Intel chips pay off down the line. According a ZDnet blog, Apple's exclusive ability to deploy Mac OS X on the x86 platform will put the company in a unique position should it decide to move toward virtualization. Apple may choose to take the paravirtualization route by implementing a thin layer of software called a "Hypervisor," which would allow users to install multiple operating systems such as Mac OS X for Intel, Linux, Windows, or BSD directly onto the raw hardware, according to the ZDNet blog. Many hurdles still remain, however, before Apple can take the plunge. "Intel would have to release new Core Duo CPUs that have VT support which is likely in the near future," the blogger adds. Apple may also need to implement a BIOS compatibility layer for EFI to support Windows installations that require conventional BIOS. "If Steve Jobs plays his cards right and delivers true paravirtualization, Apple may indeed double its market share."

by MacNN Staff

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SmileyDude
Dedicated MacNNer

Joined: Apr 1999

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02/10, 11:48pm | report spam | close Reply |
VT Support

"Intel would have to release new Core Duo CPUs that have VT support which is likely in the near future."

VT support is already confirmed to be there on the currently shipping chips. In fact, you can take a look at this from a 20" iMac (just pulled this out myself using dmesg):

CPU identification: Genuine Intel(R) CPU 1500 @ 2.00GHz CPU features: FPU VME DE PSE TSC MSR PAE MCE CX8 APIC SEP MTRR PGE MCA CMOV PAT CLFSH DS ACPI MMX FXSR SSE SSE2 SS HTT TM SSE3 MON VMX EST TM2 TPR

The VMX feature is the VT support. If you don't believe me, go to www.intel.com, and search for VMX. You'll find a whole slew of pages talking about the virtualization features.

pottymouth
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Joined: Nov 2003

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02/11, 09:39am | report spam | close Reply |
so?

But how will this affect marketshare? I can't imagine how Joe Consumer could possibly care about this.

machappy
Forum Regular

Joined: Jan 2000

0

02/11, 10:16am | report spam | close Reply |
what would you buy

a pc with xp? or a mac with OSX and XP? apple is doing something radical here. they have the potential to sell so much hardware its scary.

ecrelin
Junior Member

Joined: Oct 2000

0

02/11, 10:30am | report spam | close Reply |
blather�

Joe consumer and IT pro would only entertain desktop virtualization for short term transitions and very very specialized situations. 95% or better will boot the machine and use it with one OS. All apple needs to do is what it has failed at so far, make the OS a peer level AD file services client and have Mail, Addressbook and iCal be peer level clients for Exchange services. There are so very few needs for a specific OS these days and they are shrinking daily. Servers may like virtualization now but it is usually for more of the same OS server services, rarely multiple OSs and with the advent of HP (hi perf) computing platforms that may wane as well. Apple needs to have windoids put their hands on OS X and it will become the default favorite, that is the only real benefit, that and the perception that it is "enterprise ready" are what Apple needs to increase marketshare. Oh maybe quicktime with Windows Media Codecs for criminy's sake.

OtisWild
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Joined: Feb 2005

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02/11, 01:19pm | report spam | close Reply |
Servers, rootless windows

This is not too interesting outside of servers IMHO, though perhaps with virtualization you could have the equivalent of Classic, but for Win32 apps.

I still think Apple supplying porting APIs/ABIs for stuff like DirectX and .NET would be a super win, make it easy for developers to add support for OS X by cross-compiling.

ClevelandAdv
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Joined: Jul 2004

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02/11, 02:27pm | report spam | close Reply |
This article is correct

I have had the opportunity to speak to several IT departments at schools (colleges) and businesses. They are very much looking forward to buying these machines. Apple is going to make huge gains in marketshare, if you don't think so...you are clueless about the reality of the marketplace.

misterdna
Junior Member

Joined: Aug 2004

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02/11, 04:57pm | report spam | close Reply |
Article Makes Sense to Me

"But how will this affect marketshare? I can't imagine how Joe Consumer could possibly care about this."

I'm not as technically knowledgeable as some of you, but I do know several people who are very interested in switching to a Mac. The only thing holding them back is they can't lose access to one or two Windows-only programs. A system with the described capability would definitely make a difference to them.

"Joe consumer and IT pro would only entertain desktop virtualization for short term transitions and very very specialized situations."

Aren't most transitions intended to be short term??? This would be the perfect way for nervous "switchers" to transition to owning a Mac without risk -- if they don't like the Mac experience, they would still have a solid Windows-compatible machine. Plus, I understand that iMovie & iDVD (etc.) are much easier for the neophyte user than comparable Windows offerings, so the appeal of having access to these free Apple programs might be enough reason for some Windows users to buy one of these machines.

moodymonster
Mac Elite

Joined: Sep 2003

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02/11, 06:08pm | report spam | close Reply |
future OS X

Apple need to kick OS X to levels no one can imagine so when someone gets a Mac cause they can run Windows on it, they get totally blown away by OS X. Even moreso.

LouZer
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Joined: Nov 2000

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02/11, 11:56pm | report spam | close Reply |
no sense

I'm not as technically knowledgeable as some of you, but I do know several people who are very interested in switching to a Mac. The only thing holding them back is they can't lose access to one or two Windows-only programs. A system with the described capability would definitely make a difference to them.

Yeah, but if you can run windows on the mac, there's also the imaginable point where these new macs are used to just run windows. And that's not a useful marketshare for apple.

But you can't get users to run x11 apps in OS X. What makes you think people will want to be switching between entire OS'es. Most computer users have enough trouble trying to keep themselves above water in one OS.

Plus, I understand that iMovie & iDVD (etc.) are much easier for the neophyte user than comparable Windows offerings, so the appeal of having access to these free Apple programs might be enough reason for some Windows users to buy one of these machines.

Well, since you've apparently never run the other programs, its hard to really make a judgement (of course, trying to get an honest opinion of the comparable MS apps on a Mac board would be impossible). But those MS apps are free as well, and MS has offered updates to them free of charge (iLife is only free the first year. All updates, its repurchase time!)

But, seriously, I know everyone likes to think its true, but the number of people who actually waste - I mean spend - their time composing movies and creating DVDs is extremely small to the entire audience.

Oh, and knowing a couple of guys who want to switch does not a doubling of marketshare make (not even with apple's miniscule marketshare! Thank you, thank you! I'm here all night! Don't forget to tip your waitress!)

BTW, virtualization isn't about dual-booting. Its about running multiple OS'es concurrently. and there's more to it then just having a CPU that can handle it. (Well, not concurrently, as I don't believe they're both running at the same time, I think its more like one sleeps while the other works, although on a dual-core machine, you might get two working at once).

LouZer
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Joined: Nov 2000

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02/12, 12:03am | report spam | close Reply |
One more thing

While this whole virtualzation might sound great and all, keep one thing in mind. If it becomes relatively easy to run other OSes, and consequently programs written for other OSes, why in the world would a company continue to make Mac OS X versions of software?

You could argue silly reasons, but one thing would be true. Windows programs could run on Macs and windows. Porting to the Mac would then get a company what? Nothing much, except, perhaps, a better user experience? The current crop of Mac software already pales to the options on the windows platform, and it seems to get smaller every day (esp. in the area of general productivity apps). Its bad enough when we only have one real option for many categories of applications (unless you're some of those 'open source GNU software rules' geeks, but then what would you be doing with a Mac anyway), this could lead to even those single apps to disappear.

Oh, and virtualization would mean that if you install windows, you are just as susceptible as before to all its problems you were trying to get rid of (and who knows, maybe it would allow macs themselves to get infected from virtualized windows viruses).

chirpy22
Junior Member

Joined: Jan 2006

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02/12, 01:06pm | report spam | close Reply |
price

This will not happen unless Apple reduces the price of its hardware. It's still way more expensive than a Windows box with a similar configuration.

ClevelandAdv
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Joined: Jul 2004

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02/12, 01:58pm | report spam | close Reply |
Get what you pay for

Windows boxes are generally junk. I work on PC's and Macs and I have 3-4 times as many hardware (and software) problems with my PC's then my Mac's. Apple hardware is just better. If there was no OS X (shuders) I would still buy Apple hardware to run Windows on. This is the same reason many consumers will look at Apple hardware even if they never launch OS X. Virtualization will effect marketshare because it is not just an IT department thing, or something a couple people I know are looking at doing, but it will open up the best, coolest hardware to everyone.

chirpy22
Junior Member

Joined: Jan 2006

0

02/12, 02:39pm | report spam | close Reply |
I agree

However, joe consumer doesn't care about that. What he cares about is getting a computer for the cheapest price possible that will run Word and Excel and check email and browse the internet. And that's really it. If Apple could bundle a Mac Mini with a monitor and printer for a decent price, I think they would have a chance.

LouZer
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Nov 2000

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02/12, 05:09pm | report spam | close Reply |
Re: i agree

ditto here. Its not just about price, but that plays a big part into it. And since most people's problems with their PCs is running Windows, then Macs will just be infected as much as other PCs (if they're running windows) and then where's the gloating? (Oh, right, you'll spend hours trying to tell people how its not apple's fault they got infected, its MS's).

And then the people who like good hardware (and price isn't as much of a big deal) aren't going to flock to the mac either. Their systems are so closed, constrained, and non-upgradeable, its not even funny. h***, the only choice on RAID is 0 or 1, because even on the most top-end mac, they can only hold two drives.

Oh, and I know very few people upgrade their computers. But when given the choice, people like to have the option, even if they never use it. You tell people "Hey, get this imac, its great. Sure, you're screwed if the monitor fails, since its built-in, or if anything hardware breaks you need a new motherboard, since you can't just plop in a card like in most PCs. And sure it costs more than that more flexible Dell you're thinking about. But look how nice it looks. And look at all the features it has. A built-in camera. Wireless networking. Bluetooth connectivity. What's that? You don't need wireless? Have no idea why you'd use bluetooth (hey, who does). Need a built-in camera like a hole in the head. Yeah, I know what you mean. What's that? No, you can't take them out to save money. Its all built-in. That's why it costs more. Once you added all this to that Dell, it'd cost the same! Sure, I know you won't be adding it to the Dell, that's not the point. What's that? Yeah, I would suggest getting the dell, too. Especially since they've got this good sale going on this week. Huh? No, Apple never puts anything on sale...."

mproud
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Feb 2003

0

02/12, 05:45pm | report spam | close Reply |
So wrong

You've got to be kidding me. This would NEVER happen. Apple makes OS X.

Jesda
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Dec 2005

0

02/12, 07:24pm | report spam | close Reply |
Bad Idea

OS/2 ran Windows programs which meant that native OS/2 apps werent necessary. Eventually us OS/2 users realized we should just run Windows or buy a Mac.

das
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Jan 2001

0

02/12, 08:43pm | report spam | close Reply |
Re: one more thing

louzer:

You actually completely misunderstand the situation.

If more people - possibly significantly more - buy Apple hardware because they can also run Windows on it, that increases the Apple- and Mac OS X-userbase and marketshare. That makes Mac OS X a more attractive platform to develop for.

But by your argument, why do any developers develop for Mac OS X even now?

They do because they understand that customers enjoy the user experience of Mac OS X, and have chosen it specifically. As long as there are customers who appreciate Mac OS X, and who select Mac OS X over Windows, even if they ALSO choose to run Windows out of necessity rather than preference (which will almost always be the case here), there will be increasing numbers of software developers developing for Mac OS X.

And moreso as the installed base of Apple/Mac OS X increases.

The infamous "OS/2 effect" only happened to OS/2 because OS/2 itself natively supported Windows applications and IBM supported and advertised it from the very beginning.

The attractiveness of any and all virtualization solutions will only increase Mac OS X's marketshare, and in turn, development for Mac OS X.

Regards,

Dave Schroeder das@doit.wisc.edu http://das.doit.wisc.edu/

ronjamin
Baninated

Joined: May 2002

0

02/12, 10:34pm | report spam | close Reply |
BullCucky

What is the point of running an OS? To run programs.

These people that have a fetish to run Linux, or Windows on the Mac are just techno geeks.

The average person could give a ShxT. They want programs to work, period.

With that said, DarWine, WINE, or some clever, invisible, Classic-like implementation is what is needed.

To run Windows applications without worrying about Windows is the key.

WAKE UP PEOPLE!!!!!

gilhero
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Dec 2005

0

02/12, 10:37pm | report spam | close Reply |
Mr. PC will not switch

Mr. PC will not switch ease. Until software, especially games, hit your local PC software store, they will switch.

When was the last time you saw a Mac compatible software item on the shelf anywhere?

In some parts of this great nation you can't find an apple dealer within 100 to 300 miles, but you can find 20 places selling PCs within 10 miles of home.

In most cities with populations less than 100,00, the only way to buy a Mac is on the internet. So where is that person who has no computer going to buy a Mac.

Would you buy a Lexus if you had to drive 300 miles to the nearest dealer or had to do it on the net and no one closer then the dealer would service it? Not likely.

The same goes for most computer buyers when it comes to Mac or PC.

Some of us will never (My mother told me never to say never.) switch to a PC that runs WinDoz, because we have loved our Macs since 1984. We learned to ignore warranties and fix our own (I have had to do this twice since '84 and I have had over 15 Macs and still have 10 up and running now) and buy all our software over the net.

I just don't see the average consumer switching just because the chip inside is Intel. I also don't see someone buying a Mac just because they own an iPod.

The average iPod user doesn't even realize the Apple makes both the iPod and the Mac. h***, half the store clerks selling iPods don't now this.

I was talking to the store-designated-PC-expert at an Office Depot and he didn't even know the Mac was made by Apple. He though apple quit making computers after the Apple-IIe. So much for store experts.

Enough said.

LouZer
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Nov 2000

0

02/12, 11:38pm | report spam | close Reply |
Re: one more thing

You actually completely misunderstand the situation.

If more people - possibly significantly more - buy Apple hardware because they can also run Windows on it, that increases the Apple- and Mac OS X-userbase and marketshare. That makes Mac OS X a more attractive platform to develop for. It only makes it more attractive if people are actually running OS X on it. No one will care if it turns out that most of these new users are running windows. That does nothing for the marketshare of the OS, which is what will drive the creation of more software.

But by your argument, why do any developers develop for Mac OS X even now?

They do because they understand that customers enjoy the user experience of Mac OS X, and have chosen it specifically. Except this isn't always the case. You're more likely to see crappy windows ports of software then ground-up interfaces. Even open source software that has been worked on to run in OS X, where people would theoretically intend to make things better, you basically get crappy ports that look just like a windows or X11 app.

And with the complete lack of any competition for most software, there's no push now to push for better UIs or 'true' OS X apps.

As long as there are customers who appreciate Mac OS X, and who select Mac OS X over Windows, even if they ALSO choose to run Windows out of necessity rather than preference (which will almost always be the case here), there will be increasing numbers of software developers developing for Mac OS X.

Again, this is only the case if (a) Apple can get windows programs to run in OS X (like a classic app, but better), and (b) people decide to run OS X as their primary OS, rather than windows. Its not about having people running OS X, its about getting more and more people running OS X. And its all great to think "OS X is so much better than windows, people will flock", but since most people just care about surfing the internet, getting email, and doing some office-like stuff, they're still going to say "Hey, that PC is so much cheaper, give me that."

Plus, it doesn't help that Apple no longer offers any type of office-like suite with their computers. And MS Office costs an arm and a leg.

eldarkus
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Joined: Feb 2004

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02/13, 08:19am | report spam | close Reply |
Useful marketshare...

"Yeah, but if you can run windows on the mac, there's also the imaginable point where these new macs are used to just run windows. And that's not a useful marketshare for apple."

As a company, Apple make money off selling machines. Not for "marketshare" of the OS. So the more machines they sell, the more profitable they become. Not useful marketshare?? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! come on, now!

bobolicious
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Aug 2002

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02/13, 08:55am | report spam | close Reply |
Please make it so...

I am one who must keep two boxes on my desk - some software & websites I need access to just aren't mac compatible - it is exasperating - as a business I need these options available...

I might suggest market share could increase more than 100% - almost everyone I know who has a pc is curious about the mac & complains about windoze - a wintel dual core mini that could 'go both ways' might be just the ticket...

superaction
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Feb 2006

0

02/13, 10:16am | report spam | close Reply |
I just can't see it...

Despite having had several opportunities over the years, Apple has always avoided mingling too closely with Windows. Why would they want to change now? Apple's strength lies not in competing with commodity PC makers, but in innovation and carving its own niche.

I freely admit there is a small but significant number of users out there who would kill or die to be able to do this (and they may have to wait for a native version of VirtualPC to see something similar happen, if such a version ever emerges), but honestly I don't see Apple moving this direction. If this 'virtualization' does take place, I really can't see it doing anything like doubling Apple's hardware marketshare and it certainly won't help with software marketshare at all.

DOS compatability cards offered this promise but had only a small user base, Chirp (common hardware reference platform) offered this promise but never got off the ground, and VPC (which I've used since version 1.0) has just never been a substitute for a real PC. At best, such things are confusing for the average user and at worst they just don't function properly, destroying ease of use on both platforms.

Steve Jobs has a history of playing his own game with his own toys. He's not going to willingly compromise his stranglehold on the Mac user experience in order to please a relative handful of geeks who would take advantage of 'virtualization'.

The geek community may get something like this to work, but I don't expect Apple to endorse it, let alone tout it.

daxler
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Joined: Apr 2003

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02/13, 12:29pm | report spam | close Reply |
Games

Windows for Games - Mac for everthing else!

Windows is unrelaible when doing just about anything. but games are optimized for PC's

2 partitions 1 with windows which can be reinstalled at will, the Other with all the important stuff and OSX

ronjamin
Baninated

Joined: May 2002

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02/13, 02:55pm | report spam | close Reply |
WINE

WINE is the answer.

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Virtualization to drive Apple marketshare?

updated 06:50 pm EST, Fri February 10, 2006

Apple\'s secret weapon

VT Support

so?

what would you buy

blather�

Servers, rootless windows

This article is correct

Article Makes Sense to Me

future OS X

no sense

One more thing

price

Get what you pay for

I agree

Re: i agree

So wrong

Bad Idea

Re: one more thing

BullCucky

Mr. PC will not switch

Re: one more thing

Useful marketshare...

Please make it so...

I just can't see it...

Games

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Virtualization to drive Apple marketshare?

updated 06:50 pm EST, Fri February 10, 2006

Apple\'s secret weapon

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VT Support

so?

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This article is correct

Article Makes Sense to Me

future OS X

no sense

One more thing

price

Get what you pay for

I agree

Re: i agree

So wrong

Bad Idea

Re: one more thing

BullCucky

Mr. PC will not switch

Re: one more thing

Useful marketshare...

Please make it so...

I just can't see it...

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WINE

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