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Windows XP incompatible with Mactels

updated 11:45 am EST, Thu January 12, 2006

Mactels can\'t run XP

Looking forward to Intel-based Macs, many hoped that they would be ableo Windows XP and Mac OS X. However this is not the case, according to a report from BetaNews. The report says that Apple's use of the extensible firmware interface (EFI) rather than BIOS, current Windows releases will not run on the new Macs. Limitations in Windows itself will prevent its use on the new Macs, and Apple's vice president of worldwide product marketing Phil Schiller said the company would not specifically block the use of Windows on Mac hardware.

Apple's move to Intel processors also meant a switch from Open Firmware to EFI, which is an updated BIOS specification developed by Intel. Advanced EFI offers the ability to boot into an EFI shell to run diagnostics and power up the CPU into a fully functional state immediately. EFI also separates the control of devices from the operating system, allowing it to initialize hardware prior to loading the operating system. This feature allows a system to connect to the internet to download updated drivers before booting up, according to the report.

Microsoft has plans to add EFI support to 32-bit versions of its new Windows Vista operating system, but the final release isn't expected until the end of 2006. Additionally, Microsoft's 64-bit versions of Windows are incompatible with the new Intel-based Macs despite supporting EFI, due to Apple's 32-bit-only Intel platform.

Microsoft on Tuesday announced a formal five-year commitment to develop its Office product for the Mac--offering support for PowerPC Macs as well as Intel-based machines.

by MacNN Staff

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bobolicious
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Aug 2002

0

01/12, 12:36pm | report spam | close Reply |
this just stopped me...

from buying a new mac... what a waste...

Stecchino
Forum Regular

Joined: Jan 2005

0

01/12, 12:40pm | report spam | close Reply |
Admittedly....

...it would be nice to be ABLE to boot Windows. BUT, the positive is that the performance increases from the new Intel chips should far outweigh any negative this story carries. Even so, it will be possible by this winter. Who knows how good Virtual PC will become now that x86 emulation is out of the mix. Also the x86 version of Darwine is coming along...it's not a perfect world, but it's heading there.

bobolicious
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Aug 2002

0

01/12, 01:01pm | report spam | close Reply |
market share

Most people I know have essential apps on the pc side - everyone is talking about macs - letting me boot windoze would let me sell my pc & upgrade my mac - as it is I'll keep both - making the wintel macs essentially 2 in 1 computers would add more value than doubling the speed - the other 95% of computer users would then have the option of buying a mac - seems like a no brainer to me...

I may even sell my shares...

ThisGuy
Mac Elite

Joined: Oct 2001

0

01/12, 01:01pm | report spam | close Reply |
Vista

Vista will boot on EFI if I am not mistaken.

Feathers
Grizzled Veteran

Joined: Oct 1999

0

01/12, 01:04pm | report spam | close Reply |
Wooahh!

Did I read correctly that the MacIntel's are "32-Bit only". h***'s Bells, that's one step forward and two steps back. Further proof that gains in processing power are being eroded by limitations of software, or should I say "bloatware"! Of course Apple was always disingenuous in it's marketing of OSX as 64-Bit, as anything that ran with a GUI was always only 32-Bit given that only apps run from the terminal could run in 64-bit. Not to mention that bugger-all apps ever had full dual-processor support either. So dual-processor supposedly 64-bit machines were always less than the sum of their parts. Like a V8 that would only allow you to use four of the cylinders! Sheesh!

that one guy
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Joined: May 2005

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01/12, 01:10pm | report spam | close Reply |
May not be entirely true

If I remember correctly some of the latest PC's from Gateway ship with the EFI firmware, and they have Windows Media Center installed on them. I believe the EFI has the ability to emulate a standard PC bios just for this sort of problem.

nextstep
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Jan 2006

0

01/12, 01:10pm | report spam | close Reply |
Gateway uses EFI ??

Gateway started shipping PCs with EFI and running Windows XP back in November of 2003. The story at the URL below also says that Microsoft wil start promoting EFI. Something doesn't smell right about this story Windows not being able to use EFI.

http://news.com.com/2100-1008-5131787.html

Hobeaux
Junior Member

Joined: Mar 2002

0

01/12, 01:20pm | report spam | close Reply |
RE: wooahh!

please be aware that being 64-bit does not increase performance per se. Instead it allows you to address larger amounts of RAM and be able to calculate larger numbers without having to use floating point math.

As the iMac and the new MacBook Pro aren't capable of holding 16GB+ of RAM there really isn't need for the hardware to support 64-bit.

I could be wrong but I believe that Intel isn't making a dual-core chip that is 64-bit at this time.

cwtnospam
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Joined: Jan 2006

0

01/12, 01:23pm | report spam | close Reply |
Incorrect feathers!

The MacIntel's are starting out with a 32-bit version of 10.4.4 for now. That doesn't mean that they are 32 bit, and I highly doubt that Intel's latest and greatest processor isn't 64-bit capable.

Most likely, Apple wanted to get Intel Macs out quickly and it was easier to start with the OS at 32-bits. Considering that most iMac and laptop users have no real need for more than 4 GB of RAM, it isn't an issue.

rcpmac
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Joined: Sep 2002

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01/12, 01:35pm | report spam | close Reply |
latter this year

"Vista will include support for EFI when it ships later this year, so unless someone comes out with a hack that gets XP up and running on the iMac and MacBook Pro, you'll have to wait until later this year to dual boot Windows and Mac OS X natively on the same machine."

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20060112-5962.html

scottrussell
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Joined: Mar 2001

0

01/12, 01:37pm | report spam | close Reply |
emulating an emulator?

Until a universal binary version of Virtual PC ships, don't you think it will temporarily have to run using Rosetta? That means it's kinda going through TWO emulators to work. I smell molasses. Slow & sticky.

I.P. Freely
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: May 2003

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01/12, 01:38pm | report spam | close Reply |
Forget dual boot....

Dual boot is point less, you have to quit one OS to go into other OS.

What I want is VMWare (or VPC), no rebooting.

Non Issue as far as I can tell.

jscotta
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Joined: Jun 2002

0

01/12, 01:50pm | report spam | close Reply |
Concurrent OS is best

Being able to run Windows on a Mac that booted into OS X is better than dual-booting. That is so�20th century. Actually, it is worse than that. I much prefer being able to set up different OS environments within my main environment over having to reboot.

So keep the dual-boot managers out of the picture and bring on the emulators! (term "emulator" used loosely)

mjtomlin
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Joined: Oct 1999

0

01/12, 01:59pm | report spam | close Reply |
EFI --> BIOS

From what I read EFI can emulate current BIOS for backwards compatibility. However, it is an extension of EFI and does necessarily have to be included/supported. Whether the Mactels implements this extension to EFI is not clear. Guess we'll have to wait for someone to get their hands on a system and test it out.

phillymjs
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Joined: Jun 2000

0

01/12, 02:13pm | report spam | close Reply |
Dual booting...

...is for chumps.

Don't be surprised if Apple comes up with a Windows/Linux compatability environment that lets either one run in its own space while you're booted into OS X. Just like Classic works now, though the Windows files will probably have to be segregated in their own folder/disk image/physical hard drive. You know, to keep things neat and so any Windows malware you may happen upon can't bork OS X.

What I really want to know is, is target disk mode still there, as well as all the other nifty features Open Firmware had (hold C to boot from CD, N to netboot, etc)?

~Philly

notehead
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Joined: Aug 2001

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01/12, 02:15pm | report spam | close Reply |
it can always change

Folks, this is called "leaving yourself room to grow." The first thing Apple needs to do, and is doing, is to produce Mactel machines and accompanying software that offer a painless transition to the new chips so that the existing Mac user population doesn't feel abandoned. Apple is not likely to ever make a lot of effort to enable XP on its hardware, but it is clearly leaving the door open for others to do so. And this is the very first round of Mactel hardware. Anything can happen in a year, or even less.

sdf
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Joined: Aug 2004

0

01/12, 02:20pm | report spam | close Reply |
32 bit

To the user above that claimed 32-bit could address up to 16GB of memory:

The limit is actually 2GB or 4GB, depending on whether it's signed or not. 16GB would be 34-bit.

Terrin
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Joined: Jan 2006

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01/12, 03:07pm | report spam | close Reply |
MIcrosoft Deal

I am surprized nobody is thinking about the 5 year deal Microsoft made with Apple so that it will continue developing Office.Other than making a profit, Microsoft got something from this deal. Otherwise, it could just keep making Office as it has done for the last couple of years with no deal in place, just like any other software developer does. Think about it, Adobe does not make a deal with Apple to continue making profitable software. Office for the Mac is very profitable.

No, my guess is Microsoft threatened Apple that it would stop making Office. Apple on the hush hush likley gave something up. My guess is either 1) it will unoffically allow third party mp3 players to support iTunes files, or 2) Apple agreed to cripple its machines from running Window's natively.

Despite people using Windows on a Mac, I do not think people being able to do so natively on a Mac benefits Microsoft. Why? More people who might not otherwise buy a Mac, will now buy one. Fewer of these people will find a reason to boot into Windows.

Just my two cents.

denim
Mac Elite

Joined: Jun 2000

0

01/12, 03:13pm | report spam | close Reply |
re: 32 bit

Um, almost. A 32-bit address space is 4GB. Period. If you can only access 2GB, you've got a 31-bit address space.

diamondsw
Senior User

Joined: Apr 2000

0

01/12, 03:53pm | report spam | close Reply |
Not the end of the world

Whoop-de-doo. The only thing preventing XP from running is the bootloader. So, either: 1) Wait for Vista 2) Use a different bootloader (like grub, which supports EFI and Windows XP) 3) Wait for VirtualPC or VMWare

I'd be VERY surprised if by the start of March people aren't dual booting with Windows quite easily.

nextstep
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Jan 2006

0

01/12, 04:19pm | report spam | close Reply |
EFI-BIOS compatibility

Below is a quote from an Intel page. "Framework" is short (?) for EFI Framework:

"Firmware developers should be aware that adopting the Framework is not an all or nothing proposition. The Framework defines a Compatibility Support Module (CSM), which provides the runtime interfaces necessary for compatibility with existing PC operating systems. A contemporary implementation of the Framework on a PC includes a CSM for supplying services to operating systems that do not boot using EFI and for supporting legacy option ROMs on add-in cards."

http://www.intel.com/cd/ids/developer/asmo-na/eng/208649.htm?prn=Y

Here is another quote, this from a FAQ from America Megatrends:

"Since EFI does not define an existing legacy BIOS interface, how will operating current systems like Microsoft Windows XP or Microsoft Windows 98 work with a system based on Intel's EFI �Framework�?

The EFI Framework defines the Compatibility Support Module (CSM), which provides the runtime interfaces necessary for compatibility with existing PC operating systems. AMI's implementation of EFI & the CSM on IA32 platforms is designed to facilitate the transition from BIOS runtime services. This allows users and system integrators to support both firmware interfaces."

http://www.ami.com/support/doc/EFI-FAQ.pdf

JasonPro
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Joined: Jan 2003

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01/12, 04:30pm | report spam | close Reply |
re: microsoft deal

1st, Microsoft has nothing to gain if Apple allows 3rd party players to use iTMS files. They don't make the players after all. Now, if Apple makes the iPod compatible with windows media DRMed files... then MS does stand to gain. 2nd, MS again has nothing to gain if Apple makes their mactels incapable of running windows. Again, MS doesn't make PCs. However, they do make windows. Windows running on a mactel requires someone buying the same license to run windows as a person running windows on a pc. MS would still win and profit. In fact, I wouldn't be at all surprised if MS specifically makes an effort to support installing windows on a mac. Whether they jump on porting virtual pc (using virtualization rather than emulation) to the mactel quickly... that's another story. I hope that they do, but I don't have a whole lot of faith. I'd really rather see vmware do it or something. Maybe we'll even see some new developer come up with something because I would think making a virtualization environment is a lot easier than emulation. That's my 2 cents.

just a poster
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Jun 2004

0

01/12, 06:57pm | report spam | close Reply |
Forget that VPC garbage

from Microsoft. Their "engineers" have killed the product already.

This is the bomb:

http://darwine.opendarwin.org/

ClevelandAdv
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Jul 2004

0

01/12, 07:56pm | report spam | close Reply |
Windows on Mactels

Jasonpro is absolutly correct in assuming that Microsoft would support Windows on Mactel. They actually make more money selling a Mac version of Office with VPC and XP then they get from Dell or some other vendor for the Windows version of Office and a copy of XP. Mac users pay more for that stuff! I guarantee that Windows will be running on Mactels very soon, and at or near as fast as running them natively on a PC.

LouZer
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Joined: Nov 2000

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01/12, 11:05pm | report spam | close Reply |
Re: later this year

"Vista will include support for EFI when it ships later this year, so unless someone comes out with a hack that gets XP up and running on the iMac and MacBook Pro, you'll have to wait until later this year to dual boot Windows and Mac OS X natively on the same machine."

Oh, that's hillarious! Vista released later this year? I'll believe it when I see it.

And there's nothing that says Vista will run on a mac, just that it will support EFI. And, remember, its not a supported setup. So it doesn't matter if you get some hack to do it or it loads from the DVD. Apple ain't going to help you if it crashes.

BTW, what's the point of this, if OS X can't use NTFS disks, and XP can't do HFS+ disks? Great, dual-booting without the ability to share files. Sounds like a winner to me!

webraider
Forum Regular

Joined: Nov 2004

0

01/13, 12:07am | report spam | close Reply |
Aren't we forgetting

Virtual PC??? That costs just about as much as a full blown verison of Windows and I'm sure it's functionality/ performance can and will increase! Those of you holding off becuase you want to run windows.. wait and see what VPC will do for you.

I'm wanting to know if Windows machines will run OS X??? That's more important to me than whether or not a Mac can. Whether it's using EFI, or Whatever.. I was under the assumption that Macintosh's did things completely different when they booted up. If you try to Fake something.. you get instability or the system simply won't start-up.. not mention that drivers won't load right etc... What would be cool is a "Virtual Macintosh" for Intel computers. I mean.. it's already out but it would be better if Apple designed that.

Some of my friends feel like that apple will eventually become a Windows Hardware manufacturer that just happens to sell their OS on their machines.. I truly hope not. Maybe now is a good time for the Amiga to come back!

jumbojet
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Joined: Aug 2002

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01/13, 02:31am | report spam | close Reply |
hello?

What do you mean by "use" and "do?" If you're going by the actual definition of these words then you're wrong. Have you never shared files with a Windows machine? Or vice versa? You certainly can. You can't boot off the same drive format, but that has nothing to do with sharing files. Retain your sarcasm for times when you're actually right.

testudo
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Joined: Aug 2001

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01/13, 11:09am | report spam | close Reply |
Re: Hello

What do you mean by "use" and "do?" If you're going by the actual definition of these words then you're wrong. Have you never shared files with a Windows machine? Or vice versa? You certainly can. You can't boot off the same drive format, but that has nothing to do with sharing files. Retain your sarcasm for times when you're actually right.

Sorry, but most drives I have either work in a Mac, or a PC, but not both. The only way to get it to work with both is to format it in FAT format, and that's not something you can do and still run OS X on the machine. In order to dual boot, you'll need to (a) partition your drive into at least two pieces (which is inefficient) (b) install OSes and apps on separate drives (c) set up a third drive to use to transfer data.

Or you can perhaps spend more money on HFS+ drivers for windows, and get by with NTFS read-only support in OS X (assuming you don't do anything crazy like encrypt or protect the drive).

But, gee, with all the grand talk, you all make it sound you just install windows on your drive and life is magical! Its not, its a pain, at best.

Oh, and VPC will need a complete re-write in order to work. Don't hold your breath on that one (they might be better off trying to re-code the PC version of the software then trying to recode the G4/G5 version).

hayesk
Professional Poster

Joined: Sep 1999

0

01/13, 11:10am | report spam | close Reply |
Re: microsoft deal

Uhm, terrin, think about that for a second. Why would Microsoft not want Apple owners to go out and buy Windows for their Macs and full retail prices?

Microsoft wants more people to buy and run Windows - not less.

hayesk
Professional Poster

Joined: Sep 1999

0

01/13, 11:14am | report spam | close Reply |
Assumptions

Too many assumptions here. There's more to a computer than the boot firmware and the CPU.

To dual boot you need compatible partition maps. Apple doesn't use the same map that FDISK creates, so two drives will be necessary.

Not to mention the device drivers for all of the internal Mac hardware.

While I do think it'll happen, it's not going to happen within a few days of product being available.

palane
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Joined: Feb 2005

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01/13, 03:38pm | report spam | close Reply |
Testudo's disk drives

Testudo wrote:

"Sorry, but most drives I have either work in a Mac, or a PC, but not both. The only way to get it to work with both is to format it in FAT format, and that's not something you can do and still run OS X on the machine."

Geez, Testudo. You usually write entertaining flamebait, but you've gone off the deep end here. Macintoshes have read PC discs for years (and vice versa with a software assist). I've been copying some old data off a CD-ROM this afternoon on a Mac onto my keychain drive and onto a PC without trouble this afternoon. Funny, the Mac is even running OS X.

Where on earth did you get the idea you can't write to a disk? This assuems that you actually DO occasionally fire up a Mac. Now, please, back under your bridge.

palane
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Joined: Feb 2005

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01/13, 04:13pm | report spam | close Reply |
Follow-up

I've had no trouble using *external* drives between Macs and PCs (that is to say, using a Mac running OS X to read an external keychain or hard drive formatted for Windows).

I have not attempted to swap internal drives between systems, which I allow may be what Testudo alluded to (or different partitions on a single drive).

ian5
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Joined: Jan 2006

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01/13, 10:32pm | report spam | close Reply |
re: palane

OS X can READ NTFS. It cannot write to NTFS. Windows cannot read or write NTFS without separate drivers, the only decent ones ive been able to find being macdrive.

Your flash drive, 99% of flash drives at this point, are universal and can be accessed by all operating systems, im not sure how this is accomplished, it is most likely a software layer for dealing with each operating system, thus being why it has to install drivers when it is inserted into xp.

if you try to write to an ntfs formated external drive it will not work, which is why windows and mac formated ipods arent compatible without special software.

macuser
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Joined: Jan 2006

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01/16, 09:00pm | report spam | close Reply |
Intel Macs may boot XP

Check out this apcmag.com's interesting article on "Intel Macs May Boot XP After All".

http://www.apcmag.com/apc/v3.nsf/0/64E7EA353646669ECA2570F50012430B

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Windows XP incompatible with Mactels

updated 11:45 am EST, Thu January 12, 2006

Mactels can\'t run XP

Related Articles

Recent Articles

this just stopped me...

Admittedly....

market share

Vista

Wooahh!

May not be entirely true

Gateway uses EFI ??

RE: wooahh!

Incorrect feathers!

latter this year

emulating an emulator?

Forget dual boot....

Concurrent OS is best

EFI --> BIOS

Dual booting...

it can always change

32 bit

MIcrosoft Deal

re: 32 bit

Not the end of the world

EFI-BIOS compatibility

re: microsoft deal

Forget that VPC garbage

Windows on Mactels

Re: later this year

Aren't we forgetting

hello?

Re: Hello

Re: microsoft deal

Assumptions

Testudo's disk drives

Follow-up

re: palane

Intel Macs may boot XP

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