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Apple-Intel partnership to spark innovation

updated 08:00 am EDT, Tue August 23, 2005

Apple-Intel partnership

One IT Week columnist says that Apple's move to Intel-based Macs . "Forget the squeals and protests of the die-hard Mac lovers - the recent news of Apple's move to the Intel platform marks a turning point in the personal computer industry. If my theory is correct, it's exactly what's needed to breathe new life into an area of technology that is currently starved of innovation." The article notes that while Intel has tried--mostly in vain--to create concept PCs every year, the large system vendors are interested in producing commodity hardware: "Apple managed to make some second-rate hardware look amazingly sexy, and has developed probably the coolest-looking operating system on the planet."

by MacNN Staff

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swilcox
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Joined: Jun 2005

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08/23, 08:18am | report spam | close Reply |
Another IT-idiot

Hey Mr. IT expert, listen up. I'm one of those die-hard Mac fans, and you don't hear me squealing about the move to Intel. That's because I, like most other Mac fans, understand what the Mac is all about. It's not the processor that makes the Mac the best computer in the industry. So just because you don't get it don't assume that we Mac fans don't either. Will a Mac-Intel partnership inject innovation into the computer industry? Well duh!!!!

ethical_paul
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Joined: Mar 2002

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08/23, 08:27am | report spam | close Reply |
Squealing?

I haven't heard much if any squealing either. Motorola/IBM doesn't have the rabid fanbase, MacOS does.

MacScientist
Junior Member

Joined: Feb 2000

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08/23, 08:32am | report spam | close Reply |
Huh?!

Is there so little uninformed and stupid opinion today that MacNN had to go back to June 15, 2005 to find this idiot? It would appear so.

Gee4orce
Professional Poster

Joined: Dec 2000

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08/23, 08:39am | report spam | close Reply |
Intel shooting up ?

"while Intel has tried--mostly in vein"

I think you mean "mostly in vain", unless Intel are genuinely shooting up over this ?

phillymjs
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Joined: Jun 2000

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08/23, 09:10am | report spam | close Reply |
Re: Intel shooting up?

Have you seen some of the concept designs that they've trotted out in the last few years? The "Aztec pyramid"? The "Ottoman PC"?

Whoever came up with c*** like that and thought it was good *must* have been on something!

~Philly

legacyb4
Mac Elite

Joined: May 2001

0

08/23, 09:34am | report spam | close Reply |
My poor G5

is only a "second-rate" machine...

ecrelin
Junior Member

Joined: Oct 2000

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08/23, 10:14am | report spam | close Reply |
well at least

its a sign that even the ultra clueless are actually hearing a rustling in the bushes, when they push the grass aside they may notice the two lane highway they didn't know was there. I'm glad that he took some time out from disinfecting his "premium quality" machine to take notice, or maybe he's had his firewall locked down to msn since pre 2000. I don't know Philly, they say there are magical powers in pyramids, maybe its only the Egyptian ones though ah ha ha ha ha

testudo
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Joined: Aug 2001

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08/23, 10:24am | report spam | close Reply |
Wrong, wrong, wrong

If my theory is correct, it's exactly what's needed to breathe new life into an area of technology that is currently starved of innovation."

Sorry, dude, you're theory is wrong. A mac is still a mac. It runs a different OS. People aren't going to be buying apple computers because it may run windows (and unsupported, by the way). Plus, being that they'll cost more then your general Windows PC (because its apple, who likes their 25-30% margins), people who want to just run windows aren't going to pay the premium, esp. when the FUD hits the fan (again, its not supported to run windows, don't expect any help if things go wrong). They'll buy macs to run OS X and that's what they want to do.

Ergo, the situation starting next year will be, get this, EXACTLY THE SAME as it is this year. There's the mac, and then there's Windows PCs. And since the situation is the same as this year, why in the world should the other manufacturer's leap up and go "OMG, Apple now has intel chips! You know what that means? We've got to waste a lot of money and time making fancy looking computers!" Sorry, ain't going to happen. These guys run on thin margins. Spending money on something that the buying public have generally shown they don't care about (the machines the PC manufactures have made to try to be stylish have generally fallen flat) is only going to cost them, not make them, money.

BTW, I own a Dell PC and a PowerMac 2.3GHz G5. Both sit under my desk. I could care less what either of them looks like. I will note that the G5 is, for some stupid-a** reason, the heaviest computer I've ever lifted (and that includes those all-in-one CRT iMacs), is the biggest computer I've ever owned, and, yet, lacks any real reason for its size. It doesn't have great expandibility. It has a minimum number of ports on the back (two firewire, two USB - I guess if they wanted 4 USB, the computer would weigh 100 lbs and be 3 feet tall). Plus the stupid handles (which are needed in this case, since its so freakin' heavy) prevents really putting much on top of it and having it easily accessible.

I guess the problem is that Apple deals in style and the other PC manufactures deal in substance. Sure, it would be nice if someone actually could deal in both, but it hasn't happened in 20 years, what makes next year so different?

reboylin
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Joined: Aug 2005

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08/23, 10:35am | report spam | close Reply |
Joint Research?

I read a story a few weeks ago that Apple was establishing a research group at Carnegie Mellon University's technology research center. Avie Tevanian, head of software development, got his PHD there leading a team that developed the Mach kernel used for OS X. Apple's team is reported to occupy the top floor of the same four story building occupied by Intel's research group.

Apple's track record of technological innovation, Firewire and Quicktime among others, belies the typical ignorance of PC zelots. PC manufacturers such as Dell have invented nothing. I repeat, nothing! Apple and Intel will provide mutual support in moving computing technologies into the marketplace. Dell and others will follow using Intel's pre-designed packages with their commodity wrappers.

eddd
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Joined: Dec 2001

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08/23, 10:44am | report spam | close Reply |
right on, testudo

Just because Apple will be using Intel chips doesn't mean PC makers like Dell will suddenly devote money to design and innovation. The ugly truth is that Dell's business plan has stripped away margins, making it nearly impossible for them or their competitors to devote resources to things like design (or even customer service, for that matter). The result is... surprise... a lack of innovation and creativity. Once customers are trained to buy computers based on price, it's hard to change their habits.

So little or nothing will change.

ecrelin
Junior Member

Joined: Oct 2000

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08/23, 10:53am | report spam | close Reply |
can you say mini?

I bet dollars to doughnuts that there will several imitations of the small form factor that will emerge this year. We all know that some of you power jockeys have to have room for yet another 400GB drive or two but there are many compelling reasons to go small, warehousing and shipping costs from parts to finished product alone would be dramatically less. They are operating on slim margins but they claimed to make small profits and that means that the R&D budgets may not get cut. Simply copying Apple would be considered major innovation in the PC market. The guy IS an idiot but he may be right about that as it sounds like he would be in line to buy one (but only a premium quality Dell or HP of course).

ecrelin
Junior Member

Joined: Oct 2000

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08/23, 11:11am | report spam | close Reply |
credit where due, or not

For the record Apple did not develop Firewire they were just the first to use it. It was an indepedent consortium project that started around 1990 or a couple years after.

tedgrigg
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Joined: Dec 1999

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08/23, 11:28am | report spam | close Reply |
Macs better quality

The evidence over the last several years shows Macs outlast and hold their value far better than PCs. So the assertion this article makes that Mac hardware is "second-rate" is false.

PowerBooks as well as PowerMacs hold their resale value for years after PCs end up in the junk yard. Just run over to eBay and see that PowerBooks can easily get 75% of a retail value after two or even three years after purchase! In fact, many PowerBooks sell for better than 50% of their retail value after four years in many cases.

Macs are simply better made machines as a whole than commodified PCs.

alcatholic
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Joined: May 2004

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08/23, 11:29am | report spam | close Reply |
Apple did invent Firewire

The engineer(s?) worked at Apple when they developed the technology. It was later successfully submitted for approval as an open standard. The engineer(s?) then moved on and continued development at other companies that were now investing in extending the Firewire open standard.

Even the name was established within Apple.

alcatholic
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Joined: May 2004

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08/23, 11:40am | report spam | close Reply |
Resale value?

Resale value is a function of supply and demand as well as quality. And the important quality point I think is the OS.

Mac OS makes Mac refurbs an AWESOME option. You know its just going to work no matter how old it is. The junk that is Windows makes Windows refurbs an awful option to even consider.

But supply and demand also matters. I know that I look for lower price points than Apple offers, so my only real option is a refurb (and education/clearance sales). Windows people have options to buy new, be it white boxes or whatever, when they want a lower price point than even Dell offers. They don't need refurbs from a price point perspective.

mjtomlin
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Joined: Oct 1999

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08/23, 11:57am | report spam | close Reply |
FireWire...

"For the record Apple did not develop Firewire they were just the first to use it. It was an indepedent consortium project that started around 1990 or a couple years after."

Nice try. Do some research before you decide to give or take away credit where it is due. A simple Google search for "FireWire" ...

-> http://www.1394ta.org/Technology/index.htm

"The 1394 digital link standard was conceived in 1986 by technologists at Apple Computer, who chose the trademark 'FireWire', in reference to its speeds of operation. The first specification for this link was completed in 1987. It was adopted in 1995 as the IEEE 1394 standard."

testudo
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Joined: Aug 2001

0

08/23, 12:31pm | report spam | close Reply |
Re: can you say mini

I bet dollars to doughnuts that there will several imitations of the small form factor that will emerge this year.

First, "mi-ni". What do I win?

Second, what's taking them so long? The PC industry isn't one that takes a long time to copy successful products. The mini's been out since January. There should already be clones on the market. Once people realized the original iMac was selling, there were a copy of copies released in quick succession.

dwynn
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Joined: Aug 2005

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08/23, 12:33pm | report spam | close Reply |
Lost on all of you.

Didn't any of you read the article they are talking about? Intel is spending tons on research for many cool new things they always try to show, in vein, to PC manufacturers. Apple will now reap the benifits of Intel research, and still have a machine which they can call a Mac. Intel will reap the benifits, because now they will have a loyal base of users who use OS X. It's a good business move by Apple, and Intel. In fact, as Mac users, you should be jumping for joy: Mac users have always relied on the OS to give them speedy response, whereas Windows users have relied on the processor. Now you'll have the fast OS, AND fast processor. Too bad they didn't go with AMD. IMO their processors are better than Intel.

testudo
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Aug 2001

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08/23, 12:44pm | report spam | close Reply |
Re: Mac better quality

The evidence over the last several years shows Macs outlast and hold their value far better than PCs. So the assertion this article makes that Mac hardware is "second-rate" is false.

Well, they last several more years, assuming you're on-board video doesn't go in your iBook, or you don't have one of those exploding iMac G5s. Or the hinges on your powerbook don't break. Or the CRT on your eMac doesn't start freakin' out.

And it could easily be argued that the Macs are in service longer for other than "they're better" reasons, such as: 1) The lack of large advancements in Apple hardware over the years, not only in processor speed but also in just their general lack of desire to update computers with newer technologies over short periods (the longer they keep a motherboard in service, the more they can spread out the cost of its development), means users have less need/desire to update their computers.

2) The cost of Apple's hardware forces users to keep the computers in service longer, both to make their monthly cost less, but also to save enough money to buy new equipment.

3) Conversely, PC users pay less for their computers, generally, thus have no problem replacing them sooner. Also, PC hardware is updated more often (hey, they at least get PCIe), giving them a "reason" to upgrade (if you're looking for one).

4) PC software is updated more often and takes more advantage of the increased capabilities in new computers, thus offering both a reason and need for some to upgrade their computers.

Take a Mac and a PC, running current software and OS, and then use them for three years, no software updates. Both will still work and are as usable as they were when you got them. Only if you want to use newer software or hardware, or you want something faster, do you "need" to update your computer. PCs might slow down after installing tons of software, but so do macs. And reformatting either is a great way to get things perky again.

testudo
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Aug 2001

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08/23, 12:51pm | report spam | close Reply |
Re: lost on all of you

Didn't any of you read the article they are talking about? Intel is spending tons on research for many cool new things they always try to show, in vein, to PC manufacturers. Apple will now reap the benifits of Intel research, and still have a machine which they can call a Mac. Intel will reap the benifits, because now they will have a loyal base of users who use OS X. It's a good business move by Apple, and Intel. In fact, as Mac users, you should be jumping for joy: Mac users have always relied on the OS to give them speedy response, whereas Windows users have relied on the processor. Now you'll have the fast OS, AND fast processor.

Apple's not going to care what apple is showing on the computer side of things. They'll care about internals, but they're not going to follow intel's lead on externals. Steve won't have it. intel will most likely get more from apple, as they'll be the ones trying to get intel to make smaller or different types of motherboards and other architectures, to fit what they're thinking about in terms of a computer.

But none of this leads to any 'spark' of innovation. The innovation was already there (as you say, Intel was doing it in vain, and Apple always did it). Its just a question of whether the others will fall on board. But considering that only in the last year or two has a floppy drive been optional on PCs (but, of course, you can still get one, can't take the leap of losing them completely), and most PCs still have Parallel and serial ports (hey, at least serial ports are the smaller pin ones now, not the large 25 pin deals!) and PS/2 connectors, I doubt many are going to jump on board.

Too bad they didn't go with AMD. IMO their processors are better than Intel.

Umm, but AMD wouldn't be doing all these cool things for Apple that intel is. So what do you want? Cool things from Intel? Or just faster processors from AMD?

dwynn
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Joined: Aug 2005

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08/23, 01:19pm | report spam | close Reply |
Will it happen...

I couldn't tell you if Intel's innovations will make it into the MAC, of course. It will be interesting to see what Apple uses. As others have pointed out, it's not really the MAC hardware which draws people to a MAC, it's the OS. If/when Apple sells "Apple OS ??, for IBM compatibles" (for example)...off the shelf. I'd buy it.

HyperCube
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Joined: Jun 2005

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08/23, 01:44pm | report spam | close Reply |
Copy You To...

To some extent he's right... Here's another angle on this...

Apple introduced use of CD's... PC's copied that Apple introduced use of DVD... PC's copied that Apple introduced use of USB... PC's copied that Apple introduced use of FireWire... PC's copied that (to some extent) Apple introduced use of Serial ATA... which PC's have begun to copy

Though some things appeared on PC's first... Like: PCI (Graphics) Cards... Which the Mac adopted

Although things don't always appear on Macs first, more often then not they have. -- One of the reason's why Apple has been known as a 'leader' - the other manufactures generally follow in Apple's wake. - At least to a limited extent.

Now that Apple is goinmg to be using more hardware in common with PC manufacturers, it will encourage the PC manufacturers to copy more at the hardware level.

Watch BIOS dissappear, after Apple do away with it...

More 'common' hardware will help Apple - Macs will have better access to high end Graphics Cards for example,

And some component costs will be lower.

ecrelin
Junior Member

Joined: Oct 2000

0

08/23, 02:59pm | report spam | close Reply |
firewire

Yes my faux pas as far as current legal ownership and age is involved but this was no Apple skunkworks project in fact if Apple were solely responsible for it it would have never seen the light of day. Charles McConathy (sp?) principle at Micronet and engineers at the company that created SCSInet I can't remember their names were in the original consortium. I installed some of the first networks of theirs and worked directly with these guys through the mid to late eighties and early nineties and I can tell you for certain that Apple had very little if anything to do with the early development of the technology. They were interested in promoting it as we were struggling in the prepress market with management of large files but Apple's involvement was paper based at best. They didn't bring it in house until after 1990 when the first prototypes worked. They did not even apply for the trademark for the name Firewire until 1993. Apple was a political quagmire at the time and big egos abounded (including these guys) but I had many an ear full of how they were doing everything at their own expense without Apple. I'm not surprised they Apple takes all the credit but its about as original to Apple as the Finder and you know that saga. If any of you can find a name for even one of the original 1986 "Apple technologists" mentioned in the bland oft copied source please ante up. Teener didn't start until 1990, I couldn't find any reference to any of these mystery men in the first white paper at IEEE, the original standards application in 1995.

krez
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Joined: Aug 2005

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08/23, 04:52pm | report spam | close Reply |
haha

Wow... intel and Apple together will spur innovation... you don't say? You're telling me that if you put two of the biggest computer innovators on the planet together, that you think they'll actually do some interesting things! Praise be the seer of the future.

Yeah, course this is going to change things. In a good way.

www.tiger-compatible.com

alcatholic
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Joined: May 2004

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08/23, 05:54pm | report spam | close Reply |
Umm, the Finder!=Apple

I think you mean GUI. The generic GUI is not Apple's idea, of course.

But, if you actually mean the Finder as it looked and performed in 1984, then you're mistaken, IMHO. Try www.folklore.org.

testudo
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Joined: Aug 2001

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08/23, 06:09pm | report spam | close Reply |
Re: copy you to

Apple introduced use of CD's... PC's copied that Apple introduced use of DVD... PC's copied that Apple introduced use of USB... PC's copied that Apple introduced use of FireWire... PC's copied that (to some extent) Apple introduced use of Serial ATA... which PC's have begun to copy

I have to say that this all nice and fanciful, if not altogether false. PC makers included the above hardware before Apple did (except for Firewire, which was an Apple technology). The problem with PC makers is that even if one decides to include something (say CD-ROM drives), not everyone is going to follow in step. Then Apple includes it in their 3 products they sell at any one time, and all of a sudden they're a market leader. Well, maybe its easier to be a leader when you don't have all those different models you're selling.

Plus, its also hard to convince computer makers to spend money (even if its just $1) to add capabilities to their computers if there's no use for the capabilities (very limited number of USB products available). With thin margins, every dollar counts, so why include it? Apple, on the other hand, has large margins, so the overall effect is less (plus, by removing other tech, it was basically offset). Remember that it took forever to get firewire on PCs, and most people blamed Apple's extravagant licensing costs (something like 25 cents a port or something).

Oh, and we've got some old Digital computers in our office, with Pentium 200 MHz MMX chips in them and everything, and (a) we got them early in 1998 (came with Windows 95), and (b) they have USB on board.

So Apple didn't introduce USB. They just (a) made it standard, and (b) got rid of all old ports, which forced people to use USB (and also drove some peripheral makers to USB). But keep in mind that everyone wasn't cheering these things. USB becomes standard, and all existing mac peripherals become useless. "Way to make me spend more money apple!" Mac people put up with that type of attitude (for some reason), but PC folks would revolt if one day all PCs lost their serial and parallel ports, their PS/2 ports, etc.

But being that USB was an Intel invention, you would have to assume they had it on their Motherboards before Apple did.

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Apple-Intel partnership to spark innovation

updated 08:00 am EDT, Tue August 23, 2005

Apple-Intel partnership

Another IT-idiot

Squealing?

Huh?!

Intel shooting up ?

Re: Intel shooting up?

My poor G5

well at least

Wrong, wrong, wrong

Joint Research?

right on, testudo

can you say mini?

credit where due, or not

Macs better quality

Apple did invent Firewire

Resale value?

FireWire...

Re: can you say mini

Lost on all of you.

Re: Mac better quality

Re: lost on all of you

Will it happen...

Copy You To...

firewire

haha

Umm, the Finder!=Apple

Re: copy you to

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Apple-Intel partnership to spark innovation

updated 08:00 am EDT, Tue August 23, 2005

Apple-Intel partnership

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Another IT-idiot

Squealing?

Huh?!

Intel shooting up ?

Re: Intel shooting up?

My poor G5

well at least

Wrong, wrong, wrong

Joint Research?

right on, testudo

can you say mini?

credit where due, or not

Macs better quality

Apple did invent Firewire

Resale value?

FireWire...

Re: can you say mini

Lost on all of you.

Re: Mac better quality

Re: lost on all of you

Will it happen...

Copy You To...

firewire

haha

Umm, the Finder!=Apple

Re: copy you to

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