OK, just like that one poster mentioned...

How come Bill can get a 3GHz +, triple-core PPC chip out the door but we're still waiting on the Mac side? How did MS overcome the "mother of all thermal challenges"? I know it's not as thin as a PB but with three cores, its gotta be pretty d*** hot in there!

The specs on the multicore chip are what they'll have whent the device actually ships in six months, not what actually exists now. Let's hope that means Apple will be able to get their hands on something similar from IBM by then.

And was it just me, or was that MTV rollout one of the lamest attempts at hype advertising you've ever seen? I don't know whether MTV or Microsoft was to blame for that, but somebody is guilty of driving without a clue.

Why you all keep asking the same questions? The xBox powerpc is lacking some advanced functions present in the G5, that's why it can run at a higher frequency.

I hope everyone understands a couple of things.

First, Steve and Bill have little to do with the design and production of the CPUs used in their products. Steve (and Bill) can no more make a 3 GHz chip materialize out of thin air than you or I can. They are dependant on what IBM (or Motorola or Intel or AMD) can deliver.

Second, although MS announced the specs of the Xbox 360 the other day, when will the product actually be in production and on the shelves for consumers to buy? If I am not mistaken, it will be late fall. That is a lot of time for a lot to happen. What if IBM cannot deliver 3.2 GHz chips in that time frame? Or enough chips in that time frame? What happens to the Xbox 360 then? Likewise, if IBM has 3.2 GHz PowerPC 970 family chips ready to go by then, do you honestly think Apple will not avail itself of the opportunity to use those chips?

quote: "Steve (and Bill) can no more make a 3 GHz chip materialize out of thin air than you or I can"

Well, I might argue with you on that. Money is the incentive, and Bill's got lots.

PowerPC is a mature processor platform; PPC601 thru PPC970 spans a decade +. All I've seen about the processor is that it's PPC, nothing says it's a G5. As one poster said, maybe it's a hot-rod 3 core G3. Point is nobody knows yet. I'll bet that nobody's gonna want an X Box 3core in their PowerMac.

Z

We'd want Apple to copy the best Microsoft has to offer, right? (Like a customizable Start menu that can contain all your software options...oh, wait, they had that in version 9, didn't they? Except for the wizard bit and having programs add themselves on request during the install process.)

http://www.weborial.com/

okay, anyone else besides me find it amusing that, by copying the styling of the ipod in the xbox360, microsoft will inadvertently increase IPOD sales as well?

You must be joking.

"by copying the styling of the ipod in the xbox360, microsoft will inadvertently increase IPOD sales as well?"

I think MS is counting on the capabilities of the xbox to change all that. It will have a tie in to the MSN music store and new iPod challengers.

I wish it would tie into Macs but of course that won't happen.

Gabe

This new XBox thingy is gonna be a massive failure!!! It doesn't have a floppy drive.

Huh? Are they kidding. I thought that was a joke or a Microsoft PR release. The Xbox 360 looks nothing like the iPod or iMac. Where's the minimalist design aesthetics. The simple straight lines? When I first saw it 2 days ago, it looked to me like a souped up Dell PC box from the 90's that Refrigerator Perry sat on.

This is infuriating. Why hasn't Apple entered the GAMING MARKET?????

GRRRRR.......................

Apple should've entered the gaming market a LONG TIME AGO!

sammaffei, based on the die photo that GameSpot has been showing, it doesn't appear that Microsoft will be using a "souped up G3 core" And it's not unreasonable to try processing power comparisons at this point since there are already CPUs from the same architecture family on the market.

koolkid1976, assuming that you're correct about a reduced feature set (you probably aren't), a CPU's speed path is usually determined by features you can't remove from the processor.

I'm glad there are some nods to the iPod design in the Xbox 360. The iPod is aesthetically stunning and more consumer electronic devices could benefit from that touch of class. I won't have to hide my Xbox behind a better looking gadget anymore!

this?

I think Apple's only chance is to team up with one of the existing competitors. There is no way Apple could start from the ground up. MS has some serious ties in gaming.

It would be great to see a partnership between Apple and Sony on the gaming front. But they're both too stuborn besides having competing music store technologies, etc.

Based on what's been confirmed already, the Xbox360 will use a chip much more like a G5 then a G3 or G4. For the record, G5 is apples marketing name for the PPC970 and differs from the g4 in many ways not the least of which is that it's a 64-bit chip.

Microsoft has confirmed they are using a 3-core 64 bit PPC running at 3.2 Ghz from IBM.

http://www.themacobserver.com/article/2004/02/02.14.shtml

Now this chip was most likely specificlly designed for the Xbox 360, but it sure is a close cousin to, if not a brother to the PPC970 which apple uses as it's G5.

Now the Xbox360 isn't due to be released until the end of the year.

Does that mean 3.2Ghz 64-bit 3 core PPCs exist right now in production quanity ?? Doubt it.

Should we resonably expect this technology to filter down into a 3Ghz + multicore PPC (G5 or whatever apple marketing decides to call it) based mac in the near future ?? YOU BET!!!

Why does MS get this technology first ?? Because they have 15.5 million installed xbox units are of June 2004. That's WAY more xboxes then Macintosh G5s. http://www.mogalime.com/archives/002677.html

I hope we get multicore G5 processors at 3Ghz +, but will we get them before MS .. doubt it.

MS shipped Powermac G5's running a special PPC version of windows as the development machines for xbox360 developers. Sure bolsters the argument that it's a G5 like processor in the Xbox360 and we should be at 3.2Ghz multicore too.

is what you're telling everyone :0

I think it's good news that MS is using the G5 for the xbox. It will only help the development process of the processor.

I just wished the xbox would be open to other technologies, QT, unix, but that's just wishful thinking.

I think the xbox360 is the real deal in terms of the home media center. I know a lot of people thought of the Mac Mini in this regard but I never understood it.

The xbox360 will be much more than just a gaming machine, it has all the right parts in place and is built for the future. Maybe Apple can tie into it somehow.

Everyone stop you whining about 3.2 ghz processor, its a modified G5 (modified for gaming), and its liquid cooled just like something else we all know so well. Apple will release faster G5 machines when it can and when its economically viable to do so. All I have to say for MSFT Sony and Nintendo, all three of which are using next-gen IMB processors in their consoles, is I hope they don't have the same Fishkill/G5 fabrication problems that Apple is having. Its one thing to sell 100k 2.7 ghz powermacs and quite another to launch a console with 2 million units six months from now, everyone using a triple core processor.

Perhaps Gates can achieve 3G because [i]it's not a G5[/i]!

Quote :: Perhaps Gates can achieve 3G because [i]it's not a G5[/i]!

See above .. it more or less IS a G5.

Microsoft knows nothing about video games

I hope the Xbox 360 is hackable into an inexpensive box to run OS X. :P

Here's an even better question--- how can they sell a game machine powered by a G5-thing and a super ATi video card for $299?!?! The word on the street is that it'll come w/ 512mb of ram, DVD drive, and a 20gb hard drive.

Price-wise... isn't this more power than comes in a $499 MacMini? Isn't Apple charging $1500 for the cheapest G5 tower at about half the speed (in Mhz)?

It makes you wonder how much profit Apple makes on each sale. (sure they spend tons on R&D, advertising, etc)... but at $299 this next gen console is killer on paper.

Really, what doesn't it have? An OS?

Tiger runs for $129 retail...

Well, we don't know how much it will cost yet, but it's not uncommon in the game console arena for the manufacturer to lose money on the console hardware. They make it up in accessories, games, and online fees.

The way the get the cost down is big time bulk purchasing! I read somewhere that the 8GB harddrive in the orginal xbox costs MS $7 in Unit Manufacturing Cost.

My guess is that someone will figure out how to get OS X on this thing if it's at all possible.

Once again, MS is confused about design - the inside might be all powerful but the outside is the mold from this Mickey Mouse VCR from a few years back ...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=50604&item=5774075648&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW

Yes, probably more people care about this then care about Apple. But that's just bitterness talking.

A lot of people have been talking about the price. Remember MS is a software company, Apple is a hardware company. I know Apple makes software, but they follow the hardware model. They make money selling hardware. MS will lose money on every 360 sold. They'll make there money selling software.

Also, remember it's not a Mac. It is not internet capable. As for the Tivo comment it is also not a PVR it cannot record video. It can display video from a Media Center PC though.

This is Microsoft iPod, only for Microsoft it works the other way around. Give the hardware away and watch the Halo effect help their software sales.

I intend to replace my current Xbox with a 360 as soon as I can. This is a product that Microsoft has done right.

"It is not internet capable. As for the Tivo comment it is also not a PVR it cannot record video."

I will bet you an XBox or any Mac, iPod, whatever, that you are wrong on both counts (that it is not internet capable and that it cannot record video)?

"Xbox '05 == Apple '96, well, minus all the horsepower, that is..."

Yeah, my car == Ferrari without the horsepower and I == Brad Pitt without the looks.

Please stop with the inept comparison. The world outside of Macnn does not revolve around Apple.

PS3 is rumored to be using similar, if not the same, chip too. I am most likely buying anyway even though I do not game. It will make for an awesome HTPC.

Call me strange, but I reckon Apple could make a good run if they bought Nintendo. It's a far fetched pipedream, but it would work if done right. You have Nintendo with great technology (hey, the Gamecube woulda been the killer console if it had a DVD in it, or games not featuring a moustached italian) and games that tie-in with Apples whole squeaky clean family image shiznit, and you've got Apples kick butt industrial design and stuff. Just to see an Apple Designed Nintendo DS would rock - a fantastic piece of kit, that feels like a five year old could crush it with one finger!

Either way, if Apple was to partner with someone in the games biz, I'd vote Nintendo. Sony are too 'protective' of their stuff and would never go for it (what, and not get ALL the money?), Sega coulda been good if they snapped them just as they pulled out of the console manufacturing game, but they've been outta hardware for too long to provide much in the way of console manufacturing expertise.

Apple shouldn't 'go it alone', but it'd be nice to see them actually have a Games Development arm like MS - a team just to make up cool games and convert popular PC ones that show the Mac off to it's potential - to the average home user Photoshop benchmarks don't really cut the mustard, but show them pretty 3D graphics and they go all weak at the knees.

on Macs.

Oh, the irony ;)

http://news.com.com/Xbox+360+demos+running+on+Macs/2100-1043_3-5706658.html?part=rss&tag=5706658&subj=news

I agree that Apple should team up with someone but not to make games. That opportunity came and went and MS has made way too much headway for Apple to catch up. They can afford to lose the millions it takes to play with Sony and Nintendo.

Where I think Apple should team up is by providing access to iTunes and the rumored Video enabled store. Apple should offer to create an interface for the next gen Sony or Nintendo and embed QT technology in it to ensure compatibility and influence. The gaming market is huge and has tons of influence. There is much more incentive for Apple to get involved in this way.

I think Apple should have bought Tivo already. Those rumors were exciting but there goes another opportunity.

Microsoft might have been cool for games on an Apple II+, but they sucked when they launched the xbox. They lost tons of money, and they even had to buy the Apple game devolper Bungie, to produce their one hit wonder game series Halo and it's big brother Halo 2. Not to mention that identical games on Xbox and other platforms are lacking in things like network play..oh wait that's probably because MS burns everyone with charges for xbox live.

As for the price. Everyone doesn't do that. They (everyone) may offset the profit of their consoles with the game sales, but they don't all sell a product for less than it cost them to manufacture it in order to (gee doesn't this sound illegal) put the competition out of business. Generally unfair competition.

Bill and Steve..erm hello..PowerPC is a result of AIM. Regardless of who was in charge let's just get down to it. Although the chips are succesfully deployed in many different platforms the PPC RISC chip wouldn't even exist w/o Apple. What chip has bill designed? Oh wait..there's probably a proprietary one in the MS mice that is an almost exact duplicate of the radio control from a ford pinto or something.

How about look and feel. I saw the leak stuff before the lameness of MTV. Did a 'guess what this is'. Everyone thought it was an Apple product, but ugly. I say Apple drops the kid gloves, throws on some white ones with studs and finally takes on the rip-off artist. Oh, MS settled this and that (doesn't apply). Let's review what happened w/ the imac clones. Look and Feel matters again. Then we can go onto the new MS operating system named "Eiger" OK...sounds like??

Nintendo dropped the ball w/ the non-dvd playing gamecube (even if nobody really watched dvd's on their machines) and with the time to launch. They also stuck w/ the great games, but way to happy looking box and controller. PS2 PWNS. PS3 will also be a multi-hit rocking device. I'm soo not drooling over the xbox bend you over 360, turn you around, and ream you console. Liquid cooled dual core TO BE RELEASED....

At least apple is back to incremental increases like SW 4,5,6 instead of the long wait before episode one.

"they don't all sell a product for less than it cost them to manufacture it in order to (gee doesn't this sound illegal) put the competition out of business. Generally unfair competition."

Wow, all that word and so little content.

Guess again, gaming consoles are THE textbook example for selling at/or below cost which is the extension of the well studied razor/blade model (ever looked at the R&D cost for Mach3).

Did no one have take econ? Heck, I didn't even I know this.

might be triple-core, double-piped 3.2Ghz... but a G5 it's not.

XBOX's computational ability peaks at 1 teraflop and Apple's G5 computers are at 30 teraflops today.

Remember the powermac g4 "supercomputer" ads from 5 years ago? Those boasted 1 teraflop of computational power.

xbox 360 = 1teraflop (1000 gflops) macg5 30 gflops nuff said...what a dumbass there are only a few hundred computers in the world that can do that the g4 was 1 gflop

Sorry, that really is funny... the G5 peaks at 30 gigaflops... not 30 terraflops... That's like comparing GB and MB (note that the emphasis here is on the units--I haven't validated the 30, but it sounds close enough for government work). 1 terraflop is FREAKING AMAZING! That would take... 33 G5 processors--on a good day. You'd be more likely to need 50 to 100 to pull of 1terraflop realistically.

I know I'm just repeating what surgestrip said, but the run-on sentence threw me off for a minute.