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http://www.macnn.com/articles/05/05/12/khtml.and.safari/

Apple considers abandoning KHTML for Safari

updated 09:55 am EDT, Thu May 12, 2005

KHTML and Safari

Apple has proposed resolving compatibility conflicts in Safari by in favor of its own WebCore. In an e-mail cited by CNET News.com, leading Apple browser engineer Maciej Stachowiak suggested that architects of the KHTML rendering engine consider abandoning the KHTML code base, which Apple has used for the last two years. The suggestion, which KHTML developers said they were unlikely to accept, comes as Apple tries to quell rising dissatisfaction among the original architects of KHTML. These developers are calling the relationship between their group and Apple a "bitter failure," accusing the computer maker of taking more than it gives back to the open-source group.

by MacNN Staff

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Monstermind
Junior Member

Joined: May 2000

0

05/12, 10:15am | report spam | close Reply |
The evidence mounts...

... Apple is becoming Microsoft.

garmonbosia
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Aug 2002

0

05/12, 10:25am | report spam | close Reply |
RE:The evidence mounts...

Actually, it could just as easily mean that Apple is responding to market realities, and the KHTML group is being dogmatic and slow. Imagine that.

udecker
Forum Regular

Joined: Sep 2000

0

05/12, 10:36am | report spam | close Reply |
Read the Article

The actual email they quote seems to imply that KDE and KHTML developers should use WebCore instead, since they believe that Apple hasn't "given back" enough. The developer states interest in making WebCore multi-platform. This headline isn't entirely accurate.

cmoney
Mac Enthusiast

Joined: Sep 2000

0

05/12, 10:48am | report spam | close Reply |
OSS dogmatic and slow?

Say it isn't so! That can't be true.

I wouldn't be surprised if the problems could be a result of Apple wanting to satisfy the regular normal folk and KHTML group not really caring much about them and wanting to make something great for themselves. That's one of the biggest failings of OSS IMHO.

chris409
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Joined: May 2005

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05/12, 11:15am | report spam | close Reply |
Good news to me

If replacing KHTML with WebCore results in a better browser, then more power to them. Apple has knack for creating software that just works.

solbo
Junior Member

Joined: Oct 2001

0

05/12, 11:27am | report spam | close Reply |
OMG, are people retarded?

WebCore is basically a fork of KHTML with a lot of improvements by Apple. They have already abandoned pure KHTML.

Jonas Maebe
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Jan 2002

0

05/12, 11:28am | report spam | close Reply |
Re: OSS dogmatic and slow

From what I understand, it's not about "satisfying the regular normal folk" vs "making something great for themselves", but about "incorporating quick but dirty fixes because the next OS release needs a Safari with lots of new features" vs "keeping the source clean and maintainable".

I.e., deadlines of a commercial company vs making code as maintainable as possible so that people who only work on it in their spare time can work as efficiently as possible. That's not a failing of OSS, it's simply different priorities.

And I think in the long run, consumers also benefit from cleaner code (just look at the switch from the big hack that Mac OS 9 became to the cleaner Mac OS X code base). I do not think clean code and even short term commercial interests are mutually exclusive though, but it does take some discipline.

trevc
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Mar 2000

0

05/12, 11:33am | report spam | close Reply |
WHy?

Why wouldn't Apple consider using the gecko engine. Just based on it's larger marketshare than Safari.

Unless I'm missing something, it'd bring more compatability and would be a very positive move?!?

I always thought that they should of done that from the start...

solbo
Junior Member

Joined: Oct 2001

0

05/12, 11:38am | report spam | close Reply |
Gecko is bloated

It is extremely bloated and the code does far more than Apple would need.

KHTML was extremely streamlined when the decided to use it. It is just the rendering engine and there is the Javascript part.

The Gecko code base is huge and complicated. Not even a lot of the developers know all the workings of it. It is tied to the other Mozilla technologies that make it more of a platform than an engine. Separating Gecko from the rest would be a ton of work and would probably take some serious rewriting. The better question is "Why would they go with Gecko?".

trevc
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Joined: Mar 2000

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05/12, 11:56am | report spam | close Reply |
re:Gecko is bloated.

Now I know the 'rest' of the story.

I thought compatability with bank sites, etc. would improve, but it sounds like stuff like javascript would be different, but I'd think the DOM would be the same and support for different CSS, etc. which causes some of the compatability problems???

ElRay
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Dec 2003

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05/12, 12:07pm | report spam | close Reply |
Compatibility?

A HUGE part of the compatibility issues is that 95% of web developers out there can't code to the standards and 95% of the ones that do either over design their site or try to work around every little bug a flaw in the big two engines which leads to problems with the other browsers.

acraft
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: May 2005

0

05/12, 12:24pm | report spam | close Reply |
What's the deal . . .

What's the deal with MacNN and these completely inaccurate headlines? Last week Tiger was "Plagued" with SMB problems . . . what's next . . . "Apple Dying, Won't Survive 2005"

They need to change the tagline to: "The Inaccurate Mac News Network".

benhur
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Jan 2001

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05/12, 12:50pm | report spam | close Reply |
Read the article

I'm disappointed Apple's Safari engineers are a bunch of a**holes. Sure, it's a great browser, but they used the KDE community and aren't giving back.

benhur
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Jan 2001

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05/12, 12:54pm | report spam | close Reply |
what's with you guys

Similar MS moves which would have people bitching about corporate policy, etc.

Apple does it and people defend them. It's the other person's fault.

Baffles me.

:dragonflypro:
Senior User

Joined: Sep 2003

0

05/12, 01:40pm | report spam | close Reply |
When a fix isn't

If Apple makes changes but K chooses not to use them, for whatever reason, it does not constitute not giving back.

K wants changes made their way on on their time table but on Apples dollar.

Apple makes the changes it needs and if K doesn't want to integrate the changes, whose fault is that?

It is not like Apple is trying to crush K as MS would a small firm. Drawing that sort of parallel is hyperbole.

T

MacScientist
Junior Member

Joined: Feb 2000

0

05/12, 01:49pm | report spam | close Reply |
RE: Read the article

Well, I did read the article. To say that Apple engineers are a bunch of a**holes or that Apple is behaving like Microsoft is not based on anything in the article. The article does, however, make several things very clear. One is that KHTML would be long dead if not for Apple. The other important thread of the narrative is that the KDE group want purity. Apple wants a product. When one considers that CNET.com is not exactly an Apple fan site, our favorite fruit company comes off looking pretty darned good.

ScottEllsworth
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Sep 2001

0

05/12, 02:22pm | report spam | close Reply |
KDE developers whiny

Read the article. Read Dave Hyatt's blog. Read the original KDeveloper posts. Look for who is whining, and the answer is clear - the KDevelopers.

To call it a bitter failure when your rendering engine is installed on millions of desktops, substantially improved, and opened up to several new platforms is just ludicrous. I could wish my current open source project had such a bitter failure.

Apple obeyed the license agreement, in that they shipped out the patches to KHTML back to the developers once the product shipped. Heck, they even backported most of the underlying changes back to 10.3, so you do not even have to pay Apple a dime to get at the new features (Assuming you were on 10.3).

Demanding that Apple suddenly adopt the same release model as KHTML is a sign of rampant stupidity. Apple is a commercial concern, with release dates, schedules, and priorities that differ from an OSS project. As a result, the OSS developers get patches that cost a lot to create, and that improve the product, but they get them in a manner convenient to Apple. This surprises you?

Deal, guys. You made the decision to use a license that Apple could fork from. You could have licensed it such that Apple could not make these changes, and then you would have not gotten any of the publicity, the fanfare, and the work.

I think it is really quite impressive that Apple is willing to consider multiplatforming WebCore - that is core technology for them, and they do not generally make such things cross platform. Branding this "abandonment" shows that this is not about what is best for the user, the customer, or the product, it is about the KDeveloper's ego. They no longer feel like they are in charge, and now they whine.

Well, grow up.

Scott

WyvernSpirit
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Feb 2001

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05/12, 02:36pm | report spam | close Reply |
Well..

according to the article Apple is/was prepared to give them everything that they have done (webcore) but they declined. Apple sent them "patches" and they declined them as well. Now I believe that Apple can be just as ruthless as the next big corp, they did try and you can't blaime them if the KHTML community doesn't want to use it. Apple can't do things there way just to satisfy them, as they noted a corporation has different priorities. I'm surprised Apple was willing to give them webcore, if the article and information is acurate, for them to develope on.

dave a
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Jan 2002

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05/12, 03:28pm | report spam | close Reply |
Two side as always

Well...there are two sides. Their side is that Apple's docs are meaningless without Apple's bugs database, and that patches which only work in an OS X context are worthless to Linux users. I do think that sending over Webkit is an interesting idea ... Webkit for Linux is nothing to scoff at. We really have to unify Linux and OS X as much as possible so we can have a united installed base to attract developers and ports from Windows. 3% on our side and 3% on their side ... 3% is arguably trivial; 6% is starting to get serious; and once we start getting better and more tools...10%, 15%.

For the moment, I have to update my instructions on cross-platform testing at http://www.weborial.com/ to make up for this...

testudo
Forum Regular

Joined: Aug 2001

0

05/12, 04:13pm | report spam | close Reply |
Re: OSS and dogmatic

I.e., deadlines of a commercial company vs making code as maintainable as possible so that people who only work on it in their spare time can work as efficiently as possible. That's not a failing of OSS, it's simply different priorities.

And that's the problem trying to marry OSS software and developers with corporate software and developers. They're going to fork at some point, and quickly, because the corporation isn't goint to wait for the OSS developers to approve this change or that, because they've got schedules, and the OSS folks, esp. irritated because they're not getting paid, get irritated with people getting paid working on their software and look down on those changes as being induced by some capitalistic pressures.

BTW, if they want to bring WebCore to make it KHTML 2.0, isn't that basically saying "Hey, here's our entire engine, take it!", and if that's not giving back, what is?

testudo
Forum Regular

Joined: Aug 2001

0

05/12, 04:22pm | report spam | close Reply |
Re: two sides

Well...there are two sides. Their side is that Apple's docs are meaningless without Apple's bugs database, and that patches which only work in an OS X context are worthless to Linux users.

Actually, if the included changes explain what was fixed, then there's no need for the bug database. If it just says "Applied patch to fix some problems", then they've got a complaint (same complaint I have, I hate it when people check in code without explaining what the problem was).

As for OS X-only changes, are you or they implying that Apple should be focusing on making changes for the Linux platform, even though they don't even use that?

Jonas Maebe
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Jan 2002

0

05/13, 10:16am | report spam | close Reply |
Re: OSS and dogma

And that's the problem trying to marry OSS software and developers with corporate software and developers.

Not by definition. Just look at Apple's work on e.g. gcc or FreeBSD.

They're going to fork at some point, and quickly, because the corporation isn't goint to wait for the OSS developers to approve this change or that, because they've got schedules, and the OSS folks, esp. irritated because they're not getting paid,

I'm not sure where you got the idea that all OSS developers want to be paid for the work they do.

get irritated with people getting paid working on their software and look down on those changes as being induced by some capitalistic pressures.

I think the modern way to scold people you don't like is by calling them terrorists instead of communists. You really have no clue if you honestly think most people who work on open source software somehow hate capitalism and favour communism though.

BTW, if they want to bring WebCore to make it KHTML 2.0, isn't that basically saying "Hey, here's our entire engine, take it!", and if that's not giving back, what is?

Apple is obliged to distribute their changed version in source format (to whomever gets the binary version) and anyone can take it and call it whatever they want. That's not the point, and I don't think anyone has claimed Apple somehow does not live up to the license.

WebCore can however not be simply used instead of KHTML because it e.g. contains Mac OS X specific code. Additionally, as has been mentioned before, it apparently just doesn't abide by the coding standards used by the KHTML team.

Keep in mind that the KHTML people themselves have literally said they do not think Apple is obliged to do more than it does now (in fact, Apple does more than the license obliges it to, by e.g. putting the source to WebCore on a public website). They also said they do not expect Apple to do more.

All they want to stop is the misguided perception that there is some great cooperation between Apple and the KHTML team, because there isn't any. The "war" only rages between zealots from all sides who start putting opinions in the mouth of the KDE team resp. Apple and then start flaming others about those opinions.

FWIW: I'm a Mac user since 1991, I work on a fairly big open source project since 1997, I don't I'm not paid for that since it's just one of my hobbies (and we definitely would not accept "dirty" patches either), I'm not frustrated that e.g. the largest Belgian telephone company uses our product to save a lot of money while I don't get any of that (in fact, we help their developers as much as we can since we think it's cool they use it), and I'm not a communist <g>

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Apple considers abandoning KHTML for Safari

updated 09:55 am EDT, Thu May 12, 2005

KHTML and Safari

The evidence mounts...

RE:The evidence mounts...

Read the Article

OSS dogmatic and slow?

Good news to me

OMG, are people retarded?

Re: OSS dogmatic and slow

WHy?

Gecko is bloated

re:Gecko is bloated.

Compatibility?

What's the deal . . .

Read the article

what's with you guys

When a fix isn't

RE: Read the article

KDE developers whiny

Well..

Two side as always

Re: OSS and dogmatic

Re: two sides

Re: OSS and dogma

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Apple considers abandoning KHTML for Safari

updated 09:55 am EDT, Thu May 12, 2005

KHTML and Safari

Related Articles

Recent Articles

The evidence mounts...

RE:The evidence mounts...

Read the Article

OSS dogmatic and slow?

Good news to me

OMG, are people retarded?

Re: OSS dogmatic and slow

WHy?

Gecko is bloated

re:Gecko is bloated.

Compatibility?

What's the deal . . .

Read the article

what's with you guys

When a fix isn't

RE: Read the article

KDE developers whiny

Well..

Two side as always

Re: OSS and dogmatic

Re: two sides

Re: OSS and dogma

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