Powerbook G5s are co... Phew, I managed to stop myself there, just in time! Seriously though, great news if you've got a fairly modern Mac (which I don't sadly, sob!)

Thanks buddy. I was looking all over the Apple Store, and could not find anything for purchasing a DVD version. Here is the form, for anyone interested.

http://images.apple.com/macosx/pdf/tigermediaexchange.pdf

I can't wait to put this on my S900. Ryan Remple is King!

I guess they DID manage to squeeze it into April after all. Nice job, Apple. I look forward to the new OS.

Something I noticed on http://www.apple.com/macosx/features/security/
There is a box in preferences for Remote Desktop! This is great! It would be awesome if I could have my work desktop from home. I can get most of my stuff done from the command line, but for those few things Remote Desktop would really kick!

Man, can't wait!

Anyone think FCP 4.5 will still work?

Do you think I'll be able to upgrade to tiger for $20?

That "Remote Desktop" box is on any Mac that has installed the ARD client software (which you can download from Apple). If you want to control your Mac you either have to shell out $ for the ARD Admin program, or use a VNC program (free) (there's an option in the ARD client preference to allow VNC clients to control the Mac).

So you can remote control your Mac now -- just download the ARD client sw, and use a VNC program (I use Chicken of the VNC at home).

It should be arriving by April 29th according to Apple. Great news!

SO .. I can now boot from a computer over the network ?

I thought I could do this already ? I have a fast network at work and would love to use this to trouble shoot a mac without having to walk over to the users station .

Anyone have any clue about this feature ?

Any ideas on how long before Tiger is the standard OS on new computers? I've been waiting to buy an iMac G5, so I'm hoping it'll ship with those machines soon.

So does 6pm mean PST or EST? I imagine they'll be a line outside of the Apple store like there was for Panther and Jaguar.

If you order a machine today, you'll get Tiger for $9.99. See http://www.apple.com/macosx/uptodate/ .

mh

Thank you for the link!

http://www.apple.com/macosx/upgrade/requirements.html

Mac OS X Version 10.4 requires a Macintosh with:

* PowerPC G3, G4, or G5 processor
*** Built-in FireWire ***
* At least 256MB of physical RAM
* A built-in display or a display connected to an Apple-supplied video card supported by your computer
* At least 2.0 GB of available space on your hard drive; 3.5GB of disk space if you install XCode 2 developer tools

I believe that excludes at least Rev "A" through Rev "D" iMacs...

Macs with no built-in firewire that were supported by Panther:

iMac Rev A-D
iMac Slot Loading before the "DV" model.
iBook 1st generation

Does anyone know if Mail has been improved to fix the formatting of messages that are being forwarded, reply-to, or redirected? My old version of Entourage (2001?) did an awesome job with that -- Mail totally screws everything up.

Oh, well... I'll upgrade anyway!

I wonder if I'm in the window for an OS upgrade. Hope so.

You have got to love Steve's not so subtle digs at Microsoft. Ever since the Federal trial, Microsoft has been claim the innovation crown, so Steve says, "Mac OS X Tiger is the most innovative and secure desktop operating system ever created," which is a double whammy--it slews Microsoft's innovation claim and hits them where it hurts regarding security.

Then he goes on to say, "Tiger's groundbreaking new features like Spotlight and Dashboard will change the way people use their computers, and drive our competitors nuts trying to copy them." There aren't many competitors in the market for mainstream PC operating systems--Mac OS X, Windows, and Linux. We know who that comment is aimed at. Right on Steve!

I just ordered at that price. I think it's the same we paid for Panther.

...kudos to Apple for duping the herd into 'optional annual licencing'...

I'll wait 2 c if apple can finally get java/safari, mail, isync and a few other fairly basic issues fixed...

Don't get me wrong I love iLife 05 & Pages, but some of the basics are still a little scary - I won't be synching my Treo without a LOT of caution & multiple backups...

I don't know about the treo "issue" but I have litle/no problem with java, mail, and safari. In fact our time keeper for work, which uses some archaic form of java (we need to have a certain version of Java installed on windows, and if we have a new version installed as well, we need to use IE, as Firefox does't seem to be able to handle multiple java installations), works faster and with fewer (actually none versus many) errors.

At hmoe safari is the only browser I have had to run in about a year.

"Mac OS X Tiger is the most innovative and secure desktop operating system ever created"

I just hope markets the h*** out of Tiger. Radio, TV, Print, everywhere. It's needs to be in people's face even more than the iPod. Much more.

All of us know how much Longhorn is going to suck. Once it comes out however, few of the general public (the >5% of us who use macs) is going to care if MS copied Apple or not. Word of mouth and just having the better product and hoping people are smart enough to make the right decision is not enough.

This time Apple should take a page out of Microsoft's book and market Tiger so it's in every waking thought.

...so long as it's Snappy! Snap is all I care about. I buy Snapple just so I can cut the SNAP out of the can with a pair of sheers and glue it to my fridge. I love Rice Krispies just for the Snap, never mind the Crackle and Pop, which sends me over the edge. I hate jeans that button. I gotta have a snap. I even like the words that can be formed from Snap, like Span, as in a bridge or C-Span, I like Pans, but I do not like saucers. I have never trusted them, so an OS with more SNAP is something I will pay anything for! Bring it on!

and I'll be in line on the 29th :)

but what about Snaps? As in . . .

Yo mamma eats so much food her lunchbox has wheels on it.

oooooh Snap!

:)

hahahahaha

rotflmao!

I needed that today :-P

also... I bet Billy G's momma needed industrial strength wheels for her lunch cow trauth, however spelled. Could explain why he is so Butt-F#@*ing ugly. She mistaked him for a snack after birth.. chewed him up and spat him out.

hehehe okay, back to work!

LOL

this joke had Snappier™ inside, as did the originator... benhur :)

First, if you bought before the 12th, you don't qualify for an upgrade. If you haven't received your machine yet (esp. if it hasn't shipped), cancel the order and rebuy it. You can always try calling customer 'service' and see whether they'll allow you to get it cheap.

Second, for some of you, don't buy it from Apple, buy it from Amazon. $35 rebate on the purchase. Plus free shipping. And no tax. What's not to like.

Third, my mother has a Rev D iMac (think its Rev D, what do I know, its a slot-loading iMac, blue), and it has a firewire port, so I don't think it cuts out ALL iMacs.

Fourth, G3s weren't going to be killed. Apple was selling G3s less than two years ago (I know, I have a less-than-two-year-old G3 iBook). They couldn't kill support for them.

Fifth, Apple's really being asinine by (a) not offering a CD version, and (b) not really coming out and saying "Hey, you need a DVD drive". You have to go to the FAQs to find out specifically you'll need to get the CD version separate (nothing like being quiet about it). If someone reads the system requirements and says "Hey, I've got a G3 iBook, I'm set, let me buy this sucker", gets it home, then realizes it won't work in his DVD-less mac, he's going to be pissed. Spend ANOTHER $30 to get a CD version? That seems penny pinching. [I get $30 from (a) $10 for the CD version - as they say, plus (b) $20 for shipping and handling, which is what they charged people to get 10.1 updates direct from apple, which was "free plus shipping and handling". Add in taxes, and it could be more.]

What bugs me is when you use phrases like "duping the herd" and then say, "don't get me wrong, I love Apple."

How could you possible love an entity which treats others like that? I do not support companies with dishonest business practices. And I resent being told that I've been 'duped' and am unwittingly part of a 'herd.' I am not livestock and am fully aware of what's going on.

I am not entitled to anything. I bought a product (Panther), and now Apple is selling an improved version. I will buy the upgrade because it has features I want. It's a difficult concept, but fortunately it's got a snappy name, "capitalism."

You very well *should* wait to see if it has the features you want before you spend your money. Spending your money for something you do not want is an unwise practice. You should also be careful insinuating that other people who are older, wiser, richer, and more educated are somehow inferior to you.

I, for one, do not love Apple. They're a business, and I give them money when they provide goods or services which I want or need. It so happens that Apple has been meeting my computing wants and needs effectively since roughly 1982 (which is probably before you were born), and I have been giving them money for it.

So shaddap, ya whiner.

That seems penny pinching. [I get $30 from (a) $10 for the CD version - as they say, plus (b) $20 for shipping and handling, which is what they charged people to get 10.1 updates direct from apple, which was "free plus shipping and handling". Add in taxes, and it could be more.]


with the 10.1 upgrade i was able to walk into an apple store and get my upgrade without paying any shipping/handling. i don't know if that's how they'll handle this, but that's how they handled 10.1

"Third, my mother has a Rev D iMac (think its Rev D, what do I know, its a slot-loading iMac, blue), and it has a firewire port, so I don't think it cuts out ALL iMacs."

Rev D iMac is tray-loading, and doesn't have Firewire unless you install the Sonnet Harmoni G3/600+FW upgrade card. The Harmoni isn't supported.

The *slot loading* imacs are listed as supported. If she has Firewire she has at least a DV model.

Maybe someone has missed how there are utilities out there that let you run various os X releases on "unsupported" hardware. XPostFacto, for instance. So, crying is ok, but finding solutions is maybe more productive, and fun!

Hurray for solutions!

I'd mod up luckyjack's post. Very well put.

Agreed. Good work, LuckyJack

BUMP

It appears that new iBooks do not support Core Image because of out-of-date graphics cards. Does this mean iBook updates are in the near future? Any predictions of when, and what the update will look like?

Otherwise, it's very odd that a key hardware item doesn't support a key aspect of Tiger.

Please, Apple:

MARKET TIGER TO THE MAINSTREAM PUBLIC!!!!!!

The GENERAL POPULATION needs to know about Tiger!!!!!

I'm not talking about ads in MacWorld and MacAddict -- I'm talking about making a nationwide event out of this!!!

"I do not support companies with dishonest business practices."

Hmm, Apple certainly do many borderline stuff like delete threads from Apple discussion, consistently downgrades iTunes rights with each version, giving all its products a 5-star rating instead of letting customers decide, etc.

"I, for one, do not love Apple [snip] (who has) been meeting my computing wants and needs effectively since roughly 1982 (which is probably before you were born), and I have been giving them money for it."

Time to come out of the closet, Luckyjack. There's no shame in admitting it. If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, the guess what, you LOVE Apple.

Don't give me none of the bullsh1t about "oh, I hate Steve Job and his big ego. But may I wipe his butt? Please?"

I agree.

Maybe they could get Ridley Scott to direct another commercial. There are plenty of Hollywood actors that are Mac users that might sign on :)

"You have got to love Steve's not so subtle digs at Microsoft. (snip) "Mac OS X Tiger is the most innovative and secure desktop operating system ever created," which is a double whammy--it slews Microsoft's innovation claim and hits them where it hurts regarding security."

Thank you Captain Obvious. When has calling MS not secure and not innovative ever been subtle? I mean people have only been saying that for the last 10 years or so? Welcome to 2005.

"Tiger's groundbreaking new features like Spotlight and Dashboard will change the way people use their computers, and drive our competitors nuts trying to copy them." There aren't many competitors in the market for mainstream PC operating systems--Mac OS X, Windows, and Linux. We know who that comment is aimed at. Right on Steve!"

Woa, calm down Fanboy. It has been close to a year since Jobs announced Spotlight and it is FINALLY shipping. Great, I am looking forward to actually using it.

However, as a professional in the search field, I know tons of innovation has been made since then. For example, Microsoft purchased Lookout and has issued it as a beta while it incorporates it into its OS/Office. Google has also made its Desktop Search a public beta. Yahoo licensed X1's technology and it is the primary search tool I use in Windows. Quicksilver has been around and works great on OS X. Every single one of these projects were in place long before Spotlight was announced.

So no competitors eh? Don't buy into everything Steve says.

You tell em MrKlin!! You're so cool and savvy...my god....can't you just let the poor guy(or girl?) get excited about tiger and leave it at that??

Of course not.

These zealots then go out to rest of the world spouting their "excitement" and make rest of us Mac users look like idiots, zealots, and Steve worshippers.

I like Apple. I am proud to say it. However, I am not going to be a closeted fan like Luckyjack nor an uninformed fanboy.

But what difference does it make really...people will judge you based on how you act and not how some other random mac user acts...in fact, you are being a much bigger a** then any of these so called "fanboys" that you like to come down on....if anything I don't want people associating me with people like you and spacefreak....no one is going anywhere and doing anything, they were simply getting excited about tiger on a "MAC" board which is where these things belong anyways....does it make you feel better when you put these people down?

I call bullsh*t.

First, Apple isn't duping ANYBODY. Allow me to poke a few holes in your theory.

1. Panther was released in October 2003. It is now April 2005. That's 18 months, not a year between major releases of the operating system.

2. Ok, I will grant that to get the iSync and other .Mac goodies you have to pay $100 a year. BUT, if you don't need those services you don't have to buy them.

3. iLife and iWork are NOT (I repeat NOT) part of the operating system. Besides you don't have to upgrade if the features suit your needs.

Don't go around saying Apple is FORCING people to pay $520 a year for the OS, because they're not. And they're not duping anyone either.

Overall, I got to say that I love Panther, but Tiger seems to really give a step forward.

Things I like : Everything, my favorite is Automator. iCal folders and printing,PDF support is now awesome (i'm a researcher, that is really a point for the Mac OS X to be the best OS for academics), voiceover seems to be nice, websharing... the list is long.

Things that surprised me : Slideshows in finder, nice retail box and nice website (i remember when i was ashamed of the horrible jaguar site)

Things I don't like : FUGLY folder icons again (Apple, again!!?), inconsistency platinum-brushed metal, finder's sidebar could be improved graphically and in fonction, iSync again?, dashboard and spotlight additions seem yet to be "inspided" in konfab and quicksilver (qs is the best macosx app ever, hope tiger does not kill it)...

Things I would like to see : an Apple image editor (outside of iphoto), ichat compatible with yahoo and msn, ichat games, an inline multimedia prewiev pane in finder besides the column view... and a lot more.

Things I hope : A better finder perfomance, safari bookmarks keywords, metadata editing, A BETTER HELP and guides to debutants, better gaming support...

Negative things : Java 1.4???? That's a shame, I hoped Java 5 in Tiger... a total deception.

I work at a crisis line as a network guru........heh.

One of the counselor's windoz pc's began to act up, and it turned out to have about 485 pieces of spyware, malware, and if that wasn't enough, about 10 viruses were also present (even with all the protections on). Got it cleaned, although because of the nature of the attack I had to just about rebuild the registry.

Anyway, while I was waiting for Spybot to find all this stuff I brought up the Apple site and saw the Tiger announcement. So I'm reading this and getting comments that "That's neat", "Awsome", etc. I explained that what they saw me doing with the XP machine was pretty much "everyday" maitenance (although not at the riduclous level they were seeing), and that with the Mac they could pretty much kiss that c*** goodbye.

So I did the mac faithful proud and a few said they were going to check into getting a mac INSTEAD of a planned PC purchase.

Just for those who spout about MS Longhorn, MS is is in bigger trouble with their OS than the paid for industry pundits will admit. In a word, their OS plan is 'vapor'. Tiger is getting notice and I mean at the IT level in many places. Firefox didn't take 10 percent of MS browser share for nuthin. I suspect that 'Genius Jobs" is more than a fox on Tiger and future releases. Believe me, people in the field - like me - are paying attention. Who has time to rebuild registries?

"iLife and iWork are NOT (I repeat NOT) part of the operating system"

You can't have it both ways.

How many PC vs. Mac arguement does someone bring up "But for $500, you get iTunes, iPhoto, etc?" Or, how many consumer music and photo magement tools beside iLife are available on OS X? That's right, you can count them on one hand.

So technically, iLife and iWorks is not part of the OS. Realistically, they are 100% inseparable; iLife is part of the Mac experience/digital lifestyle.

"But what difference does it make really...if anything I don't want people associating me with people like you...no one is going anywhere and doing anything, they were simply getting excited about tiger on a "MAC" board which is where these things belong anyways"
**********
There is a big difference between you and me. If someone corrects me factually, I thank them because 1) I am learning somethig new and 2) it will be one less mistake I will be making.

You, on the other hand, cannot seem to handle that. It sounds like you prefer to wallow in your ignorance, to associate only with those who are equally ignorant, and to assert the right to celebrate your ignorance on a "MAC" board as if somehow that is more fitting?

If you think that's a put down, I have just gotten started! :)

"One of the counselor's windoz pc's began to act up, and it turned out to have about 485 pieces of spyware, malware, and if that wasn't enough, about 10 viruses were also present (even with all the protections on)."
***********
Your story say as much as about the lack of security within Windows as the incompetent admins who setup the Windows machines.

Any *competent* admins can lock down a Windows machine so tight that the only action that can be performed is typing into notepad. No access to BIOS modification, no access to explorer or task manager, no USB access, no boot from anything beside the local or network HD, no ActiveX (duh)/javascript, no midificatons to anything in the boot partition (much less the registry) etc - basically a LUA (Least-Privileged User Account).

The fact your colleague's machine is so infected is 1) Windows security sucks, 2) your admin sucks, and 3) the user is not too bright either.

[quote] Any *competent* admins can lock down a Windows machine so tight that the only action that can be performed is typing into notepad. [unquote]

Can. But does that equal "should"? Or even "should HAVE TO"? I'm a windows admin myself, and I cringe at the thought of locking machines down so hard that "the only action that can be performed is typing into notepad". Sometimes a solution, is not a solution at all.

As a poweruser, I hate having a locked down machine. :) However, if I am a Windows admin, I would prefer be safe than sorry i.e. grant privileges as exception rather than fix malwares later.

Yes, limiting the machine to kiosk mode/functionality is an example (albeit extreme) but I think you get my drift.

Glad to have a dual-platformer on the board!

First, one cannot "lock down" computers at a Crisis Center....However, I do have 'traps' and was able to isolate the node. To the point.

1. Yes agreed - it sucks, always has. Note today new exploits discoverd through Access (our main application).

2. We're pretty good. We have all those employed as well - they have a limited desktop - no access to desktop configurations, etc.

3. Possibly true, but I will defend the counselors - dedicated men and woman who serve the public in crisis situations. Pretty smart people as well.

Actually even though I have numerous safe-gates (panda, proxy servers, NAV Corp, spybot, adware, etc), a particular malware got through the internet (required to look up resources). Seems a company called "Smart Security" uses a malware disquised as a "spyware" program got installed by the user through a "popup". Basically they mass infect the system to include an annoying red screen desktop - disable properties so that it can't be changed. Then if you contact them they try to sell you a removal program for $60 - I think it's called "extortion".

Anyway the point is in 25 years of working in this field, as long as you are using any system - especially win, NOTHING is totally secure. To think otherwise is "not too bright".....:)

tp

A person who is a "Windows users" and one who is "not too bright" are pretty much synonymous.

Any Mac user should know better than to write "MAC" in all caps, as that is something completely different.

As the old saying goes "An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure". To some, that may mean you should lock your Windows machine down. But the effort hardly seems worth it as you spend a considerable amount of time having to administrate instead of just working. Especially since after all your efforts, those nasty malware, adware, spyware and viruses still seem to get their hooks in your OS anyway. Sounds more like pounds and tons of prevention resulting in the need for a cure in the long run

Isn't buying a Mac the only ounce of prevention one would ever need in that respect? What is it now... 95,000ish viruses to zero? Think about it.

"Any *competent* admins can lock down a Windows machine so tight that the only action that can be performed is typing into notepad. No access to BIOS modification, no access to explorer or task manager, no USB access, no boot from anything beside the local or network HD, no ActiveX (duh)/javascript, no midificatons to anything in the boot partition (much less the registry) etc - basically a LUA (Least-Privileged User Account)."

Yep - and that makes a COMPUTER pretty durn useful, doesn't it? Don't know about the rest of you, but I like to use my machine FOR those features - not to have them locked down on me. Sometimes getting work done requires a config modification - lockdown is great for admins but from a practical perspective, inhibitive to the user.

It's the old quandary - should these machines be optimized as productive tools or for administrative ease? I know which I'd choose. Do you?

By no means did I to imply that the work done by the crisis counselors are anything less than honorable; and the joke the users being "not too bright" was a mere flippant remark - no insult intended.

But yes, I am sorry to hear that your main application is Access (shudder). I am surprised this "Smart Security" got through even if the machines are properly locked down (at the appropiate level, of course). I am trying hard to click on it to get it to infect me but I am getting nothing. :)

Anyway, I will leave it at that. I am sure the Mac users are tired of us discussing PC problems.

Google search found the following:
http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,10630270
http://www.smart-security.info/removal.html

"but I like to use my machine FOR those features - not to have them locked down on me. Sometimes getting work done requires a config modification"

Maybe for developers, yes, and that is a big maybe. For regular users, why do they need ActiveX? Do they need to modify registry, bios, boot partition, HOSTS file, etc - all common targets for virus and malware - to do their work?

Out of box, there is no argument that OS X is a million times more secure than Windows. I argue that with proper work, a Windows can be just as secure as OS X box. Whether that work is done, is a whole another question.
************************
As for FLUK3: "MAC" = tongue in cheek. That is why it is in quotations.

And no need to preach to this group re the merits of Mac - we are all Mac users here despite having to deal with Windows/PC here and there. Not to say there are never any PC-trolls that visit Macnn but they are few and far in between. No need to always perceive yourself as victims of PC attackers.

"Maybe for developers, yes, and that is a big maybe. For regular users, why do they need ActiveX? Do they need to modify registry, bios, boot partition, HOSTS file, etc - all common targets for virus and malware - to do their work?"

OK - last comment on this - there are more important things to discuss in this forum! :)

True, some of those items may not be necessary. But - some others:

I may need to install a legit and needed application.
I may need to boot from a CD after a system crash while travelling.
I may need to transfer data on a USB drive.
I may need to access explorer or task manager.

Some of these (most notably the first)have been restrictions I've been subject to - not fun. It's great to get approved to install an application 2 weeks after you could have used it. It's an unfortunate reality that there needs to be a balance between security and usability. But - as we know - the balance point swings dramatically depending on the platform used. Agreed that with work, a Windows box can be as secure as an OS X box - but arguably at a much higher price.

May have jumped the gun in this case - sometimes it's necessary to point out the obvious on this board!

I heard a rumor that this version of the OS does not take advantage of the 64 bit G5 yet. Is this true? I thought that was one of the main features expected. Final Cut Pro 5 was supposed to be 64 bit. What's up?

-CJ

From a presumably Apple developer on /.

"You're missing something massively important. The reason why we chose not to release 64-bit versions of the UI frameworks is that they run much slower than the 32-bit versions.

User interface code is really pretty messy when you get right down to it. You're doing a lot of abstraction, moving a lot of pointers and integers around. On exactly the same G5-based computer, a 64-bit UI is going to run considerably slower than a 32-bit UI because of cache exhaustion. Because you're using pointers that are twice as big as you need them to be, you can only fit half as many of them in the various caches that are there to speed up your computer's performance. That effectively cuts your caches in half.

So we had two choices: Either waste a ton of developer time releasing 64-bit-clean versions of the UI frameworks and then tell our developers not to use them, or just don't ship them at all.

Believe me, the Final Cut Pro and Shake teams were pissed off about this. Their expectation was that they'd be able to release 64-bit versions of their applications by NAB. But a 64-bit version of FCP with 64-bit Pro Kit is less interactive than the 32-bit version on the same hardware, for very marginal gains in actual utility. FCP is already very good at making use of up to 2 GB of RAM when dealing with hundreds of gigabytes of data on disk; adding 64-bit support would have helped few and hindered many."

Thank you Apple for considering us G3 users. Now all I need it is to upgrade my RAM.

I may have just switched back to the PC world for my main machine, but come the 29th I'm upgrading my PowerBook. Actually, as we've got a go live the following Monday I may wait a week !

Only wish list - I wish it came bundled with iLife'05 for a tiny price difference so I can get up-to-date and shiny.

Things I hope for - Safari fixing the Authentication issues and supporting ContentEditable; iSync (sorry, xSync) working with a lot more phones and Entourage out of the box (or in a very soon released service pack from MS); improved performance, even on my slow old 867Mhz 12" G4 PowerBook (with 1.12GB RAM); Hibernation (hey, I can wish. Sleep leaks battery power !); nothing I use breaking (Entourage, QuickSilver, iTunes and VirtualPC)

Well I run both sides (pc/mac) connected 24/7 for over two years without trouble on either front (to my knowledge) however I don't use the pc for offline email & I have a router with a decent firewall...

I have sworn by & at both my mac & pc... The Mac impresses me with iLife but I use Mozilla for browsing because Safari just doesn't cut it for me (java, can't turn history off, slow but getting faster) & the last Mac browser I found fully compatible with sites was IE in OS-9

Mail still reverses first & last names imported to the address book (without an easy fix) & renaming a mail folder with the same name/different case seems to delete the folder... Outlook in 9 had Newsgroup access built in as well...

iSync with Palm is an interesting experience - field mapping seems to be a one way ticket, seemingly allowing only one of two addresses to be synced & omitting notes & custom fields... I still use Palm Desktop, not iSync, so the whole data management thing is not the panacea apple's marketing might promise, as far as I am concerned...

I expect contact data, mail & browsing to be a 'done deal' and we are now on the 4th version of this OS (hence the $520 figure) and hopefully these 'issues' which I consider pretty basic will be improved...

...is another sore spot 4 me - QT Pro 6 (which you may have ponied up $50 for recently) also apparently 'won't work' once you install QT 7 with Tiger...

I still boot up classic to run my QT4 pro just to copy & paste movies together - I would prefer to see a QT 7 that incrementally unlocks any previously licenced 'pro' features...

The problem is, I also am a systems administrator
and find that most users in most industries also
feel very overburdened with the technology as it
is.

They didn't grow up with the technology like many
of us did. They didn't live and breathe it for
years everyday like we did since it was part of
the school curriculum. They focused on other
things.

So when you have exasperated users wondering why
things are the way they are is it any wonder
windows gained such a toehold in the market?
Apple dropped the ball in only marketing to
the faithful.

'How many PC vs. Mac arguement does someone bring up "But for $500, you get iTunes, iPhoto, etc?"'

Not many. I see that a lot in Mac Mini vs Cheap PC arguments, but the Cheap PC always has stuff bundled with it, so that's only fair.

I agree, Apple markets to the faithful. As revolutionary as the Mac Mini is, I haven't seen any commercials. Sure, lots of positive word of mouth. I just convinced my girlfriends parents who were lifelong PC users to get a Mac Mini (on the 9th no less so no Tiger upgrade) and it took quite a bit of printouts and sitting down and showing them mine. How many people have someone who could do that for them? Media ads reach everybody.

If there was an Apple product that needed marketing, it's Tiger. Now more than ever Apple needs to make it known how great it is. Longhorn is only a year away. All of us know MS blows but 95% of the computer users out there don't know any different.

How effective is good advertising? Sometimes I'm almost convinced against my better judgment. I saw a commercial yesterday that was very cool and sounded sincere. I thought wow, whatever company this is sounds like they have their stuff together. The logo at the very end? Microsoft

Apple has a long way to go in the marketing department.

First off, when you buy a new computer you get whatever current version of iLife is out for free with the computer.

Second, iWork, being productivity software IS NOT PART OF THE OPERATING SYSTEM BY ANY STRETCH OF THE IMAGINATION.

Some people don't need iWork. Take my uncle, for example. The only thing he uses the computer for is surfing the web. No e-mail, no word processing, no games, no printing, no nothing. Just the web and only the web. He doesn't use iLife, even though it comes free with the computer. He certainly won't be upgrading it either.

Some people have greater needs than the capabilities provided by iWork. Why include that in the "yearly price that Apple 'FORCES' us to pay?"

I like the choice of being able to purchase iWork or Microsoft Office (or both) depending on my needs. Apple still bundles AppleWorks (though it is a dinosaur now) with their consumer machines, and probably will bundle iWork once they have a spreadsheet program with it.