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MS rejects claims that "Longhorn" copies "Tiger"

updated 12:25 pm EDT, Tue April 5, 2005

MS on Tiger, halo-effect

With Apple's Mac OS X 10.4 "Tiger" expected almost a year ahead of Microsoft's "Longhorn" operating system, Apple execs have hinted they expect to be . Cynthia Crossley, head of Windows at Microsoft U.K., said she expected technological crossovers but denied they would be deliberate. "We do a load of research into what people want and funnily enough so does Apple � it's not hard to work it out... Will I be surprised if there are similarities? No." And despite reports to the contrary, Crossley said Redmond has seen no halo effect from iPod users shunning PCs in favour of Macs. "We haven't seen it yet," she said. "We're not happy about losing any market share," Crossley said. "We worry less about 'losing share' and more about what else we can get into... we want to do it all."

by MacNN Staff

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rok
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Mar 1999

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04/05, 12:37pm | report spam | close Reply |
Crossley said...

"We worry less about 'losing share' and more about what else we can get into... we want to do it all."

well, certainly nice of them to actually ADMIT to it for once.

DeepDish
Forum Regular

Joined: May 2001

0

04/05, 12:52pm | report spam | close Reply |
we want to do it all

Now that scares me!

boulder1259
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Joined: May 2002

0

04/05, 12:55pm | report spam | close Reply |
no deliberate crossovers?

yeah, right... I had a coworker who was employed by Microsoft while they were developing Windows 95. The interface developers each had a Mac so that they would have a live reference as they did their "technological crossovers".

Bryson
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Joined: Mar 2002

0

04/05, 12:56pm | report spam | close Reply |
There ya have it

"we want to do it all"

Now we know why nothing they do is great, just average. Well, other than the fact that they just cant design anything good.

We can all look forward to MS's inferior product creations to touch every aspect of our lives. Cant frickin wait.

ershler
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Joined: Dec 2001

0

04/05, 01:02pm | report spam | close Reply |
No Halo Effect

If MS is so sure that there is no "Halo Effect", why do they seem so worried about telling people that there is no effect?

testudo
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Joined: Aug 2001

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04/05, 01:03pm | report spam | close Reply |
Re: we want to do it all

Gee, sounds like Apple's mantra of late. And they're also falling into the whole MS "Do everything OK, then move on to other things". Apple keeps coming up with stuff, then letting it flounder, as they show no interest keeping old stuff running or up-to-date or even making it better. Good example: Sherlock 2. They do their best to 'copy' (oh, they didn't copy, I forgot, it was just a similarity, and the Watson developer copied it from Apple!) Watson, drive them out of the business, and now Sherlock just sits there, no pushing from Apple, several channels no longer working, no prospect for a future. But that's OK, because now they've got Dashboard (which isn't a copy of Konfabulator, its just similar cross-over kind of thing, man, its amazing how this happens in life), which'll be the next hot thing for about a year, then it'll start breaking, and Apple won't mention it ever again, as they move on to...

budster101
Baninated

Joined: Dec 2004

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04/05, 01:12pm | report spam | close Reply |
????

I really H8 MS now more than ever.

JackNN
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Joined: Jan 2005

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04/05, 01:15pm | report spam | close Reply |
Actually ...

testudo, I think Dashboard is going to become The Next Big Thing in computing, and with third-party developers will take on a life of its own beyond the OS. So it's understandable Apple has dumped Sherlock in favour of it

Deal
Mac Enthusiast

Joined: Apr 2001

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04/05, 01:15pm | report spam | close Reply |
I agree

Apple should buy for the technology they copy (like they did with stickies). Pay the people who invented it. Then include it into their OS.

MS should do the same. Quit copying for once and innovate your own ideas.

There is no accidental crossover. Put two monkeys in different rooms and give them 10 tools to open a can of monkey chow. I'm sure you'll see a difference in their approach.

The fact that MS wants to do it all is proof that they don't want to do anything well. Jack of all trades and master of none.

trbgln
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Joined: Oct 2003

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04/05, 01:17pm | report spam | close Reply |
sherlock

Well, depends, I guess.
Sherlock probably was out-googled. I never really used Sherlock.
People probably just use web browers to search for their stuff.
Things evolve, which is not necessarily bad. The logical
evolution would be to have the best sherlock functionality
in Safari.

history1me

Joined:

0

04/05, 01:29pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
Sherlock

Having safary do what sherlock does is a great idea. It wouldn't take that much and it would give Safary more integration... to a degree.

Horsepoo!!!
Banned

Joined: Jun 2003

0

04/05, 01:31pm | report spam | close Reply |
Do *this* all MS...

oo0oo.

madgunde
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Joined: Nov 2002

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04/05, 01:42pm | report spam | close Reply |
Re: I agree

Deal, if Apple is going to use someone else's code, then sure they should pay to license it or buy the rights, but if they feel they can improve on someone else's idea by doing it themselves, then why should they?

As for Konfabulator, that was an evolution of Apple's desk accessories from Apple System 6. The Konfabulator guys built on Apple's idea and added to it. Now Apple is building on Konfabulator's ideas and made it even better. If no one ever borrowed other's ideas and improved on them, the software industry wouldn't be anywhere near where it is today in the technology department.

mmintler
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Joined: Jan 2000

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04/05, 01:45pm | report spam | close Reply |
Sherlock

I agree with the the comments about Sherlock being out-googled. I used it for a while but unless you use all the channels all the time-it's inefficient to open up a seperate app just to look up yellow pages, movies etc... I think dashboard makes more sense-letting the user decide what info or "channels" they want to use.

The MS comments don't surprise me...Unfortunately Sony and MS are stuck in "me too" goo. It's sad about Sony..they used to be cool. Now they just come across as a corp.giant who wants to own the audio/video market by sheer bullying vs innovating (e.g their new itunes like video distribution idea...)MS was born out of copying the Mac- MS will never take creative risks so they will never to anything beyond mediocre.

I love it everytime MS bashes Mac products in a press converence or Trade Show demonstration...it just means that Apple has struck a nerve. The fact that Apple owns the mp3 market must keep Bill Gates up at night.

dennis
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Joined: Aug 2001

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04/05, 02:08pm | report spam | close Reply |
re: I agree

Deal wrote: "There is no accidental crossover. Put two monkeys in different rooms and give them 10 tools to open a can of monkey chow. I'm sure you'll see a difference in their approach."

And you'll also see a "difference in their approach" between Apple and Microsoft. So what does that prove?

I'm no MS apologist, but there are many historical examples of independent development of similar ideas, both in technology and biology. Birds and bats have evolved into flying creatures, but one didn't copy the other. The Egyptians and Mayans both constructed pyramids, but we have no evidence of any knowledge of architecture diffusing from Egypt to Mesoamerica.

Foe Hammer
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Joined: Feb 2005

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04/05, 02:58pm | report spam | close Reply |
Typo!

"We worry less about 'losing share' and more about what else we can get into... we want to do it all."

That should have read "doo it all" - MS' major accomplishement to date.

wings_rfs
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Joined: Dec 2002

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04/05, 03:00pm | report spam | close Reply |
Research my a**

"We do a load of research into what people want....." and the rest of that sentence goes like ... "by observing the reaction of Apple's customers to their new OS features."

koolkid1976
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Joined: May 2003

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04/05, 03:18pm | report spam | close Reply |
re: dennis

"The Egyptians and Mayans both constructed pyramids, but we have no evidence of any knowledge of architecture diffusing from Egypt to Mesoamerica."

Dude, have you been living under a rock?? How many science fiction* movies do you need to tell you that the pyramids were built by aliens?!

*A literary work whose content is produced by the imagination and is not necessarily based on fact

resuna
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Joined: Jan 2005

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04/05, 04:25pm | report spam | close Reply |
Dashboard is daft

Dashboard will not become the next big thing until some hacker figures out a way to make dashboard widgets run in mormal windows so you don't have to drop a "fire curtain" in front of the desktop to see them.

I don't know what they're smoking at Apple. Chopped up dock icons, something like that.

benj
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Joined: Mar 1999

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04/05, 04:55pm | report spam | close Reply |
User Interface to face

You know, the main reason Apple gets major attention despite
the minor market share is that there are clearly defined
guidelines to let developers know what a user should expect from a software package. So despite whiney 9 to X upgraders, Apple
makes a pretty consistent product. People forget that early on, MS Apps were based on mouseless control so key commands were
very haphazard if you were used to Apple's key commands (and vice versa) Very early on Apple was about h** and MS gravitated to it.
Fast forward to 2005 and now, despite actual guidelines,
look at how it's presented and you'll see a major difference in style and clarity:
See for yourself! :
Here's Microsoft's page (http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/library/en-us/dnanchor/html/anch_UIDesignDev.asp)
and here's Apple's
(http://developer.apple.com/documentation/UserExperience/Conceptual/OSXHIGuidelines/index.html)

My point is, most (landline) phones look the same despite Manufacturering differences. A computer needs this easy kind of h**, so the more MS "borrows" (and Linux too) the better. I'm hoping the voice interface stuff in Tiger rocks the h** boat a bit.
Maybe there should be an IEEE spec for UI.

-b

uhanna
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Joined: Jul 2002

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04/05, 04:58pm | report spam | close Reply |
We want to do it all�

Once Apple figures it out for us.

testudo
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Aug 2001

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04/05, 05:00pm | report spam | close Reply |
Re: dashboard is daft

Dashboard will not become the next big thing until some hacker figures out a way to make dashboard widgets run in mormal windows so you don't have to drop a "fire curtain" in front of the desktop to see them.

And give you the ability to just switch to one, rather than getting them all at once. You might use the calculator all the time, and check the weather occasionally. You don't want to keep opening and closing the weather app just so you don't see it with your calculator. And for some things, you actually might want to use it WITH your applications, not as a separate layer (modal thinking)?

Of course, what do I know, I haven't used Tiger yet, so maybe it does work better than all that I've tried to read and understand about it.

And I don't know what rock all you people are living under, but they've found evidence (through heiroglyphics and the like) that the Mayans and Egyptians had met/comingled (at the very least there was a dance, and while it was like most dances, with the Mayans on one side of the gym, and the Egyptians on the other, talking to their own and casting nervous glances at the others across the room while pretending they weren't over there, a couple of brave souls actually did manage to get together in the middle).

Of course, this was so the aliens could land out in central america as well, but that goes without saying.

benhur
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Jan 2001

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04/05, 06:47pm | report spam | close Reply |
MS is the devil

But you know something, it won't even matter if MS copied Apple in a years time. Apple just better market the #$@# out of Tiger between now and the Longhorn release. Do you think people are really going to care if Apple invented it and it was copied (mac faithful aside)?

Here's hoping Apple has a marketing blitz like the world has never seen.

OtisWild
Junior Member

Joined: Feb 2005

0

04/05, 09:09pm | report spam | close Reply |
Dashboard, Sherlock

I hope Dashboard supports some kind of notification system, whereby for example the app fades in and out if it has been updated with critical information.

I find Sherlock, for me, in the end, didn't compete with search engines. It was slick and all, and I even wrote an RSS reader for it, but I ended up finding it was much easier to apple-N a new Camino window and do a google search for something than fire up Sherlock, wait for it to grind, then find the pane and enter stuff in.

The fact that Dashboard stuff lives in a different 'world' appeals to me more actually. However, it will probably break my wsmanager installation :/

applewizzy
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Jun 2002

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04/05, 11:29pm | report spam | close Reply |
Oh yeah we BELIEVE you...

....LYING stinking rotten slime called Microsoft. Something i learned in the Army is you can NEVER trust a liar, and where Microsoft has ALWAYS copied the look and feel but not the functionality of the Mac OS well, they better be VERY careful not to copy any patented Mac OS X technologies or Microsoft will be SO successfully sued THIS time well.......anyway Microsft products are so full of holes its ridiculous beyond reason. The NT microkernel is a sieve for viruses

just a poster
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Jun 2004

0

04/06, 01:20am | report spam | close Reply |
Is this the same "MS"

as in "Microsoft" whose executives lied in court under oath during the antitrust trial and fabricated video evidence?

Yup.

technohedz
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Jul 2000

0

04/06, 03:28am | report spam | close Reply |
read the fine print

People who develop for any platform need to read the contract for ownership of code. Apple can implement features which render your software worthless. Do they do it in an evil empire manner? No.

Sherlock: Apple came up with the whole idea. Watson comes along as an improvement. Apple ups the ante and banks on it for a while. Since browsers and rss feeders take a lot of what sherlock did away, there isn't much room for it or a substitute so that's a done deal.

Konfabulator: I love that application. Is it something that apple started? Yes, desk accessories were back in the day widgets. Did Apple allow access to the webkit framework and scripting through the ui? Yes, applescript was there. Now Apple releases desk accessories with a workflow automator, They give people back the features they lost in the os x transition that everyone has been complaining about, and are thieves?

K was living on borrowed time. If the mystical project had been theming then it wouldn't be redundant b/c of dashboard (or as cool). Hacking to put dashboard widgets on the desktop w/o the window? Not much. Apple put enough stuff in to let you develop apps easily.

Soundjam? I think some money changed hands there.

Apple does something first, other people expand on it, there's a period when independent developers expanding on Apples apps make money, then Apple upgrades. That's the cycle. It's reasonable. If you are totally original then you won't have to be concered. Let's not forget about Macromedia Central (K in a sandbox).

With MS there is no doubt that the ideas weren't original. The whole thing is a done. Anyone that doesn't think M$'s r&d department consists of 1 boss considering what current Apple thing to copy and a few 'field agents' snagging up Apples next version, is just not getting it.

Things aren't going so great on the M$ front. Of course they're going to admit to copying in a weaslish way. They'll probably try to get around statutes of limitation by saying a beta could be downloaded from a numerical ip address in the republic of north korea when logged in via 56k from harare or something. But the truth is..w/ the exception of some parts of office, M$ software straight out sucks.

SteelCat
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Joined: Jan 2004

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04/06, 05:31am | report spam | close Reply |
Re: dennis

"Dude, have you been living under a rock?? How many science fiction* movies do you need to tell you that the pyramids were built by aliens?!"

That's true. According to Stargate, the design of the pyramids was influenced by the Goa'uld; alien parasites who used other races' technology, acted like gods who could do no wrong and enslaved humans in an attempt to dominate the galaxy.

Nothing to do with Microsoft at all...

...umm...

SteelCat

Toyin
Mac Elite

Joined: Nov 2000

0

04/06, 07:10am | report spam | close Reply |
what a bunch of lies

MS is definitely copying Apple. The idea of global search is not new. It was one of the heralded features of Longhorn before Apple announced spotlight. But have you seen recent screenshots of Longhorn? The UI for the search function is virtually identical to spotlight.

Anywho, I could care less, as usual the MS implementation will be mediocre at best.

SomeToast
Senior User

Joined: Jan 1999

0

04/06, 11:39am | report spam | close Reply |
re: read the fine print

Konfabulator: I love that application. Is it something that apple started? Yes, desk accessories were back in the day widgets.

But there's a big difference in philosophy. DAs couldn't be written by "mere mortals." Apple didn't just redo DAs for the modern age, they took the same language, same basic file structure and same name as an existing third-party product and rolled it in to the OS.

Konfabulator's lineage is more closely tied to applications like FaceSpan and OneClick than it is of Desk Accessories. You never hear people complain of those apps being copied though -- just endless copying and pasting of folklore.org and point-missing Daring Fireball links.

K was living on borrowed time

Being able to have Widgets onscreen all the time (or not, as I so choose) and not having to learn Cocoa to write an interface object to get my widget to do something useful is still worth the price of admission for me.

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MS rejects claims that "Longhorn" copies "Tiger"

updated 12:25 pm EDT, Tue April 5, 2005

MS on Tiger, halo-effect

Related Articles

Recent Articles

Crossley said...

we want to do it all

no deliberate crossovers?

There ya have it

No Halo Effect

Re: we want to do it all

????

Actually ...

I agree

sherlock

Sherlock

Do *this* all MS...

Re: I agree

Sherlock

re: I agree

Typo!

Research my a**

re: dennis

Dashboard is daft

User Interface to face

We want to do it all�

Re: dashboard is daft

MS is the devil

Dashboard, Sherlock

Oh yeah we BELIEVE you...

Is this the same "MS"

read the fine print

Re: dennis

what a bunch of lies

re: read the fine print

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