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ZDNet UK: Apple has a 'potential attitude problem'

updated 02:45 pm EST, Wed January 19, 2005

Apple\'s \"attitude problem\"

ZDNet UK says Apple has intriguing products and a great public image, but also has a "" that could sour that image. Apple's actions this week in launching a lawsuit against ThinkSecret.com is a PR mistake, according to the article, "especially from a company that has been so careful to avoid the Big Brother image it prefers to ascribe to Microsoft and IBM ... Nice move, Steve. Stick up for the helpless billion-dollar company in the face of the rapacious penniless student."

by MacNN Staff

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Philly_Mac
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Joined: Nov 2001

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01/19, 02:59pm | report spam | close Reply |
wow..

Excuuuuse Apple for protecting its intelectual property.
d.

scottnichol
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01/19, 03:08pm | report spam | close Reply |
intellectual property law

when you look at intellectual property law, there's an important precident that (especially for future cases which may be much more severe theft of IP) you have to show that you've made every reasonable attempt to protect your IP in the past. apple is simply escalating their efforts at this point. in the past they've issued cease and desist orders to sites like think secret. clearly think secret has ignored these orders by continuing to post their findings.

so, i think apple is within their rights to do this and from the perspective of protecting their IP its probably the most responsible thing for them to do.

just because you've been given the details of an as-yet-unreleased NDA product doesn't mean that you SHOULD publish it.

datkinso
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01/19, 03:12pm | report spam | close Reply |
People need to grow up

Apple is going after the individual who sent the information to Think Secret. The only way to get to that person is by going thru Think Secret. The kid running Think Secret should not be surprized.

mcsjgs
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Joined: May 2000

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01/19, 03:17pm | report spam | close Reply |
Due Diligence

Has Apple conducted an internal investigation? How do we know this? Are the specs that were published traceable by document number or watermark to a specific individual? Group? Has Apple instituted proper document control procedures internally generally? How do we know? Lot's of questions here.

hemperor
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01/19, 03:23pm | report spam | close Reply |
Think Twice next time...

Having not actually read the lawsuit filed by Apple, I can only assume that it's purpose is to get Think Secret to name it's source. Since in all likelihood whoever leaked the info to Think Secret was under a NDA with Apple, they seems to be within their right to enforce their NDA.

Perhaps Think Secret should Think Twice before posting info that is in all likelihood a violation of an Apple NDA, thus making them coconspirators and liable for the violation and intentional leaking of protected trade secrets.

I do suspect that at the end of the day, one or more Apple employees will be looking for new jobs.

David Esrati
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Joined: Jun 1999

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01/19, 03:29pm | report spam | close Reply |
"Penniless" @ Harvard?

I hardly think there are any penniless students at Harvard.
I am a huge supporter of a free press- but, did any of us really HAVE to know 2 weeks in advance about the Mac Mini?
Do we really have to know about Bennifer?

There is news- and then there are business moves.
Although we all love to "be in the know"- part of Apple's mystique- part of the excitement of the Keynote is always the element of surprise and awe-
How many movies do you want to watch when you know the ending?

Frankly- there is no real real reason the public has to know what Apple will do until they do it.
The "kid" is right up there with your average hacker- just because it can be done- doesn't mean it should be done.
If I am going to propose to my girlfriend- she should hear it from me first.

Since he isn't engaged in journalism- disclosing his source isn't an issue.

my 1.5 cents-

johnsonua
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01/19, 03:34pm | report spam | close Reply |
Apple can't ignore this

Whoever it was leaked confidential corporate info, which could have (and probably did) affect the stock price. Apple can't ignore this, or else they'd get hit with a hefty and winnable shareholder's suit.

Also, they have to pursue NDA violations or risk having future signers have an out.

This is just whinging on ZDNet UK's part.

patrickdaly
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01/19, 03:47pm | report spam | close Reply |
ever think

that maybe the IP tracs back to some starbucks... or to some stolen wireless signal?

jpellino
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01/19, 04:02pm | report spam | close Reply |
Penniless Student?

Nick is a student at Harvard. Unless there's two Harvards, last I checked, it costs truckloads of money to go to the one on Mass Ave. It also costs truckloads of money to defend yourself against a lawsuit that alleges you held your hand out along with a big sign saying you'll accept information in violation of a legally binding contract, exclusively concerning a company with a California address.

The Eddie Haskell defense will not hold here, nor will wrapping yourself in some journalistic freedom flag, as heart-tugging as those may be.

As for Gline writing in the Crimson, freedom of the press does not ensure that you can release any and every little detail of an entity's private information - and these details covered in an NDA are private information, Apple being the legal entity. Substitute "Mr. Gline" for "Apple" and "Mr. Gline's ATM # & PIN" for "ipods details" and "Boston Globe" for "Think Secret" and I suspect we'd have a much different response from Mr. Gline.

Having done external research for Apple on products nowhere near the gravity of these, I will guarantee you that what Nick knew was covered in an NDA, and by California law he's liable.

BTW having 'anonymous' email and a voice mailbox is evidence that Nick knew exactly what he was doing was questionable at best, and likely actionable - why else would he make it so that he never actually had to talk to anyone nor acknowledge receipt...

Nick now gets to find out that this is not a blog and he is no longer 13. Having a high profile web site that solicits and distributes insider information is a Real Big Deal and involves Real Lawyers and Real Money. He bet on all that when he started doing what he's doing. He may have lost his bet. He needs to review rule# about gambling - if you

ScottEllsworth
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01/19, 04:05pm | report spam | close Reply |
Selling ads does not help

Note further that because Nick sells ads, he may well have harmed his "penniless student" image. Apple could make a very good case that what his site sold was essentially Apple proprietary information.

Being 19 and a student is not a defense. Apple has warned him in the past, and now wants the people who leaked the information. He made the choice to stand up to them, so now he gets to pay the potential penalty. Not a comfy spot, but surely something predictable to a Harvard student who has done this for 6 years, and made ad revenue from it.

Scott

Jonathan-Tanya
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01/19, 04:13pm | report spam | close Reply |
defense

being 19 and a student may not be a defense...but neither is it a liability.

ThinkSecret is in the right...Apple is wrong.

Do we really need to know about the mac mini, two weeks in advance? Well, you are coming at it backwards...

Do we really need to protect the billion dollar company against the 19 year old student journalist.

NO. and NO. and a thousand times NO.

I'd rather error on the side of freedom to speak, than the freedom to produce computers in secrecy, and I'll come down on that side every time, and I'm not the only one, and Apple is tarnishing their image right now.

rkadowns
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01/19, 04:48pm | report spam | close Reply |
I tend to agree.

They shouldn't be suing ThinkSecret. Should there have been a bit of responsibility on the part of ThinkSecret, sure; however I'm not sure any laws were broken on their part. The laws, or/and breach on contracts, were breached by ThinkSecret's sources.

Apple should drop this whole thing and work by other means to stop the leaks.

riverfreak
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Joined: Aug 2001

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01/19, 05:02pm | report spam | close Reply |
Another reason...

Perhaps Apple is interested in protecting share price. One way to do this is to try and clamp down on leaks / fabrications generated from rumor sites. These sites have been getting lots of press, and there is lots of market speculation leading up to events like MacWorld. You might recall that some analysts were forecasting a sell-off if Apple failed to impress (even if that was amongst the mac faithful). A big sell-off is bound to make long term institutional investors unhappy. And this could all be due to speculation / lies / leaks / deception driven from mac rumor sites.

If I were Jobs, I'd try to clamp down on it, too, especially the jack a** leaking the information.

Buran
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Joined: May 2000

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01/19, 05:07pm | report spam | close Reply |
To all the naysayers

We have laws in place to protect journalists for a reason. A journalist's job is to report on news that is provided to them, if the journalist thinks the information is worthy of a news report. No matter how much big business may not like that fact, it's still fact. A free press is a valuable thing to have, and we cannot allow the press to be gagged by third parties, no matter what their interests may be.

If someone thinks that something shouldn't be in the news, they should talk to whoever provides the information to the press. It is not the job of the press to police what others should and shouldn't say to reporters. In fact, it's the job of the press to get out as much "news-worthy" information to the public as possible.

Buran
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01/19, 05:11pm | report spam | close Reply |
And furthermore...

... just because a press outlet LOOKS like it's soliciting secrets doesn't mean that it is. Who knows why someone might want to remain anonymous? I see reports, quite often, in the mainstream press that include quotations from anonymous sources. Those sources are often not talking about anything "secret" or "classified" or otherwise not printable but are still desiring anonymity all the same.

And if I didn't sign a contract that says that I won't talk about something, by the way, I sure as h*** won't censor what I say. If I get yelled at for it, so be it. I never said I would keep quiet. Trying to sue me? As long as I didnt slander you, you don't have a leg to stand on.

gurman
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01/19, 05:17pm | report spam | close Reply |
Ouch!

"I hardly think there are any penniless students at Harvard."

Yow. As a former scholarship student there, and the recipient my freshman year of an Office of Economic Opportunity Grant, I can tell you that there are plenty of poor students there --- the University is so rich they can afford to give them scholarships.

As for intellectual property, the view of what's protectable and what's not is a lot different outside the US (where a lot of the intellectual property is currently generated). As the Indian and Chinese high tech and film industries replace the US and Europe as world leaders in capitalizing on their intellectual property over th enext couple of decades, watch for opinions to change --- here as well as elsewhere.

barryjaylevine
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Joined: Oct 2003

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01/19, 05:18pm | report spam | close Reply |
Sammy Davis sang:

"Don't do the crime if you can't do the time."

The kid screwed himself. Journalism is as far from the issue as the far side of the moon.

While I love the discussions and wishlists of features, I actually prefer to have Steve surprise me. So, an all counts, Think Secret was Thinking Stupid.

ArizonaJoe
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Joined: Aug 2004

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01/19, 05:30pm | report spam | close Reply |
Double standard

You guys are so impeachable, you make it too easy. If Microsoft did this, you'd be all over them. If Apple does it, you bend over backward to rationalize it. Look at how you groupies responded to the Apple-Real incident.

What's even more absurd is when you refer to Microsoft as Micro$oft, or M$ instead of MS. It's silly because us Apple users give far more money to Apple than a Windows user gives to Microsoft. We have chosen the high-priced company.

medmuse
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Joined: Nov 2002

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01/19, 05:55pm | report spam | close Reply |
umm...

Most of you are missing the point. Apple built it's reputation on fighting Big Brother and now that is who they are. You can talk about fiduciary responsibility, shareholders, IP and NDAs all day. The very real perception is that Apple is s******* one of their biggest fans; because they are. Don't like my opinion? Tell me reality is manufactured in a courtroom and parse the suit until my eyes glaze over. I have formed an opinion. BTW, there is no evidence at all that the kid conspired to do anything or, in fact, has injured any party. Everything is an allegation at this point. He is being libeled by you "oh so correct" Apple apologists arguing point of law and could turn around and sue you, and I, for one, suggest he do so.

Buran
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Joined: May 2000

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01/19, 05:56pm | report spam | close Reply |
What double standard?

I'd be just as against this if it were anybody else suing a small news outlet. 'I may disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.' I'm not rationalizing anything. I just happen to think that suing the press is a bad idea. Sue whoever broke their contract, not a reporter who legitimately acted on a submitted story. I write about all sorts of stuff. It's not my job to find out who might have a problem with my saying it, nor should it be.

datkinso
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01/19, 06:06pm | report spam | close Reply |
No double standard

Violating a NDA is not protected speech. That is why you did not read about it in MacWorld or the New York Times. They know full well what will cost them in a civil suit and what won't. Publishing trade secrets from a source bound by an NDA is 100% guaranteed legal & financial suicide.

nagromme
Senior User

Joined: Dec 2000

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01/19, 06:14pm | report spam | close Reply |
medium

Apple has to find a happy medium between doing nothing beyond NDAs, and going after every rumor site and forum poster who knows something.

Suing one key site may be that medium. Sure, they'd seem friendlier by doing nothing, but that may be a bad option in the long run.

That said, I don't see the legal basis for going after TS, and I'm sure that will emerge in court one way or the other, now that Nick has a lawyer. If he did something illegal that we don't know, then Apple has to act. If not, then Apple will lose, as well they should.

jpellino
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01/19, 08:03pm | report spam | close Reply |
nice ideals, but...

Free speech does not include the right to yell "fire" in a crowded theater. To a theatre of investors and rivals, that's more like what he did. He's not Bob Woodward, and these are not supressed government matters.

So the journalistic integrity stuff does not hold water. Nick wants to be considered a l337 5iT3 buy the mac faithful, justa blog when someone accuses him of something iffy, and imagines himself the NYT when the lawyers come knocking. You can't have it three ways.

Look.
Nick solicits inside information about Apple.
He operates a site with "secret" in its name.
He uses a pseudonym, even in the new legal stories.
If he's too naive to know this is coming from within Apple, then I want to talk to whoever let someone that naive into Harvard.
Someone violated an NDA.
He accepted and distributed this information.
*If* he never asked if it was covered by an NDA, then there are two further possibilities - he doesn't know what one is, or he doesn't care what one is.
Hard to believe he doesn't know what one is - having had eWeek bylines and all.
It could be kinda important for him to know this stuff.

And to finish my previous post, "If you can't afford to lose, you can't afford to gamble."

Jonathan-Tanya
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01/19, 10:01pm | report spam | close Reply |
Freedom to Sue

I didn't hear anyone talking about a boundless idealistic free speech, it sounded more like you were intent to set up a 'straw man' argument and then debate that instead of what is really before us.

No one yelled fire in a theatre....I think people noted a journalist had covered a story...if you won't protect a journalist writing a story, then the question becomes, just what speech are you going to go to bat for...any?

Hey, some people do have idealistic visions of free speech, protecting supposed rights to burn a flag, or to produce pornography etc..... I think reasonable people understand that a discussion about a journalist producing a news story, is materially different from defending a pornographer, flag burner, or someone yelling fire in a theatre.

Apple's share holders may not like it, and they have rights spelled out in that NDA against the violator....but to sue a journalist, an apple fan, and a 19 year old student, and claim their corporate interests are more important than societies 1st amendment freedoms....oh please.

shame on apple. Bad Apple.

LouZer
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01/19, 10:22pm | report spam | close Reply |
free speech

... just because a press outlet LOOKS like it's soliciting secrets doesn't mean that it is. Who knows why someone might want to remain anonymous? I see reports, quite often, in the mainstream press that include quotations from anonymous sources. Those sources are often not talking about anything "secret" or "classified" or otherwise not printable but are still desiring anonymity all the same.

Except REAL journalists KNOW who their anonymous sources are. The sources stay anonymous, but the journalists actually know their identity. The Washington Post would not have run stories based on deep-throat's info if they didn't know who this guy was. In fact, the reporter's editor had to be told so he would know that the info was coming from a real source. And then they still verified the information through other channels.

Why did CBS news get clamped on about the bush documents? Well, they were fake. But also because they (esp. Rather) didn't seem too concerned about their source. Without knowing the source, the information is speculative and worthless. And any substantial journalist wouldn't be writing up hearsay and gossip.

Then again, you can argue this author's not a real journalist (hey, just because you can post on a website doesn't mean you fall under the term 'press'). But then if he's not press, then he loses the freedom of the press argument.

And how exactly does posting rumors and innnuendo about upcoming apple products (or possible products or the like) show that someone is a true fan? How does this help Apple and the cause? I hear people saying this, but I just don't see how it works. So he says "Ooh, Apple's going to release a break-out box for Garageband!" How is this helping apple? (And how much does it help when it still hasn't been released, although all thought it was coming out at MW? Now everyone is just sitting around waiting for something that may or may not ever appear).

Oh, and on the iWork rumors, I'm pretty sure I've been hearing about an Appleworks update for years, it seems. Do all the rumor sites take credit when something like that actually finally gets announced?

LouZer
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01/19, 10:28pm | report spam | close Reply |
Re: freedom to sue

Apple's share holders may not like it, and they have rights spelled out in that NDA against the violator....but to sue a journalist, an apple fan, and a 19 year old student, and claim their corporate interests are more important than societies 1st amendment freedoms....oh please.

Keep in mind that the website's been run under an assumed name. Maybe Apple didn't know it was run by a poor 19-year-old student. What if it was run by Microsoft? Would you still be so inclined to say "Bad Apple!"

And I have to ask the same question posted by another. Can we use this whole 'freedom of speech' thing to start posting up all MacNN's users, SSN, credit card numbers, bank information, and illicit photos of them picking up hookers in the Combat Zone? At what point does 'journalism' end and 'invasion of privacy' begin? Esp. if I'm given the information from some unknown source, so it'd be completely OK right? I mean, its not like I'm breaking any rules passing this stuff along.

Now, I wouldn't be doing this to cause harm. Its just that I'm such a big fan of all of you, I want to spread this info to show how much of a fan I am! MacNN rules!

Buran
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01/20, 01:59am | report spam | close Reply |
To datkinso

... you assume that people who talk to reporters are going to tell them what they're technically supposed to say and what they aren't. And the REPORTER never signed any agreement to not say anything. The reporter didn't slander anyone -- just acted on submitted news. If the reporter did sign an NDA, fine, then they're suable. But I would guess that most reporters won't do that for the very fact that it would bar them from their raison d'etre -- reporting news.

This simple fact is what people keep conveniently leaving out when discussing this case on the side of "Sue the idiot!"

lurkerdude
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01/20, 06:59am | report spam | close Reply |
Think Corporate

"Free speech does not include the right to yell "fire" in a crowded theater. To a theatre of investors and rivals, that's more like what he did."

Wow, I know it's only January, but I hope that gets a nomination for Worst Analogy of 2005.

It's amusing that people are talking about this kid not being REALLY penniless. Never mind that he is doing battle with a multi-billion dollar company. I'm just waiting for someone to call him a member of the Academic Elite... from Hollywood even.

How the h*** is announcing products right before a *product announcement* a trade secret? I'm glad that he is getting some free legal help, because it sounds like Apple is trying to bleed him into submission, not win on the merits. Now if he were posting manufacturing processes and source code, then I'd say get the rope.

Revealing sources is another matter, but I don't particularly agree with that either.

climacs
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01/20, 10:17am | report spam | close Reply |
It would be nice...

to read an opinion here from someone who actually might know what they are talking about. You know, an attorney who knows something of intellectual property issues and NDAs.

Most if not all of you are talking out your asses when it comes to expressing your opinions on the legality of Apple's and ThinkSecret's actions.

As for the moral dimension of it, I can't blame Apple. Why shouldn't they try to protect their trade secrets? Nick was playing with fire and now he's getting burned. You don't piss off a large corporation's legal department lightly.

Finally, anyone who gives a s*** about Apple's future, whether they are Mac fans or stockholders or both, shouldn't want this s*** to get out. It only helps the competition, who would dearly love to know what Apple is up to next. And just think how it makes life h*** on those working at Apple, who now have to worry whether they are going to be falsely suspected of passing on trade secrets.

ZinkDifferent
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01/20, 01:47pm | report spam | close Reply |
Turning Tables...

So, I wonder what position ZDNet would take if a 'pennyless student' started repeatedly and aggressively publishing information from their internal meetings, their confidential marketing information, and verbatim extracts from their various unpublished articles before they were published....?

Hmmm.... I have a feeling that the reaction would be relatively hypocritical in view of the article they just printed and endorsed.

It's just ZDNet doing what they do best -- nothing!

ZinkDifferent

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ZDNet UK: Apple has a 'potential attitude problem'

updated 02:45 pm EST, Wed January 19, 2005

Apple\'s \"attitude problem\"

Related Articles

Recent Articles

wow..

intellectual property law

People need to grow up

Due Diligence

Think Twice next time...

"Penniless" @ Harvard?

Apple can't ignore this

ever think

Penniless Student?

Selling ads does not help

defense

I tend to agree.

Another reason...

To all the naysayers

And furthermore...

Ouch!

Sammy Davis sang:

Double standard

umm...

What double standard?

No double standard

medium

nice ideals, but...

Freedom to Sue

free speech

Re: freedom to sue

To datkinso

Think Corporate

It would be nice...

Turning Tables...

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