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http://www.macnn.com/articles/05/01/14/creative.snubs.apple/

Creative: 'industry will laugh' at iPod shuffle

updated 04:45 pm EST, Fri January 14, 2005

Creative snubs Apple

With its sights set on gaining marketshare, Creative Technology says it is about Apple's new flash-based iPod shuffle player. The company, who ramped up production of its MP3 players in its December quarter by about five times to keep up with demand, says that is sold more than 2 million MP3 players in the December quarter , according to Channel NewsAsia. Creative's CEO Sim Wong Hoo says Creative is not worried about the new flash player from Apple eating into its market share: "Actually, to me it's a big let-down: we're expecting a good fight but they're coming out with something that's five generations older. It's our first generation MuVo One product feature, without display, just have a (shuffle feature). We had that -- that's a four-year-old product."

The article notes that Apple's 4.5 million iPod unit shipments in the December quarter is almost double that of its nearest competitor, Creative's Zen Micro.

"So I think the whole industry will just laugh at it, because the flash people -- it's worse than the cheapest Chinese player. Even the cheap, cheap Chinese brand today has display and has FM. They don't have this kind of thing, and they expect to come out with a fight; I think it's a non-starter to begin with."

Creative expects that demand will continue after the holiday quarter and says it plans to continue with its production momentum this quarter with new product introductions. Creative announced that it has raised its guidance for revenue growth in its fiscal second quarter. Creative now expects to see a 45 percent on year jump in revenue for the three months ended in December to over US$360 million.

by MacNN Staff

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Comments

Gorloth
Registered User

Joined: Nov 2001

0

01/14, 04:57pm | report spam | close Reply |
They talk

Creative does the talk, but they can't do the ipod walk

dece
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Dec 2003

0

01/14, 05:09pm | report spam | close Reply |
Creative?

Are they still in business?

minimansion
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Aug 2001

0

01/14, 05:10pm | report spam | close Reply |
How dumb are these guys..

When will they realize that it's NOT just about the player... it's about the whole seamless integration with the iTunes Music Store and everything!!

Not to mention, that once you decide to upgrade, you buy another iPod and still have the SAME music, playlists and everything..

Airport Express, etc...

when will they LEARN!!!

hopefully not anytime soon!!! LOL!!!!

johnzoidberg
Junior Member

Joined: Feb 2004

0

01/14, 05:10pm | report spam | close Reply |
Uh-huh...

Not being able to sell one's c*** products can sure make one bitter...

ronjamin
Baninated

Joined: May 2002

0

01/14, 05:10pm | report spam | close Reply |
Remember when....

Thier whining sounds familiar......

"It looks like a Macintosh, but Windows 3.1.1 will never amount to anything because it's barely like System 4 on the Mac. We did that technology years ago......"

iPods rule, iPod Shuffle (I hate the name, shoud have been "micro"), will dominate. USB disk buyers will snap these up like a junky on crack.

mgpalma
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Sep 2000

0

01/14, 05:12pm | report spam | close Reply |
But

He does have a point about no display. I am a little disappointed in that, otherwise pretty cool.

my .02

MrKlin
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Dec 2004

0

01/14, 05:14pm | report spam | close Reply |
Duh

What do you expect them to say: "Yeah, your product is great, we suck. Let layoff everyone and close shop?"

A flamebait article if I ever saw one.

solbo
Junior Member

Joined: Oct 2001

0

01/14, 05:18pm | report spam | close Reply |
So "Creative"

He might be right in his assessment of the Shuffle, but that doesn't really say much about Creative. Considering how many of their products bear a striking resemblance to the iPod: http://www.creative.com/products/product.asp?category=213&subcategory=214&product=10274

I bought their only Mac sound card and I will never buy something from them again. Their support is abysmal.

vander
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Mar 2000

0

01/14, 05:19pm | report spam | close Reply |
Hello, teen market

The shuffle is going to allow teens and tweens to enter the iPod market. Many of them are there already, but now those kids that want an iPod will be able to convince mom and dad that for $99 it's finally affordable.

I teach in a middle class high school in the midwest and I have seen some students with iPods, but not one with Creative's player.

It's the brand, the experience, and ease of use that will sell.

FM? For most of my students, you might as well say LP.

slider
Mac Elite

Joined: Oct 1999

0

01/14, 05:23pm | report spam | close Reply |
My point

Well, there you go. They made it first and didn't know who to make money with it. Thems the beans I guess.

f1000
Professional Poster

Joined: Jan 2003

0

01/14, 05:23pm | report spam | close Reply |
Creative?

More like Imitative.

And their boxes look like they're designed by color-blind high-schoolers.

nitram_again
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Nov 2001

0

01/14, 05:24pm | report spam | close Reply |
Existing users

It also allows existing users to have ANOTHER iPod to play the music that they have purchased from the iTMS.

If it gets new users in, that's great too.

>>FM? For most of my students, you might as well say LP.

I like the comment :-) Makes me feel old though...

Filburt
Junior Member

Joined: Aug 2001

0

01/14, 05:28pm | report spam | close Reply |
iPod shuffle and Mac mini

What Creative and its proponents fail to realize is that both iPod shuffle and Mac mini serve to (1) lure new customers into the world of iPod and Macintosh and most importantly, as a way of enticing them to upgrade to pricier iPod and Macintosh later and (2) impulse "add-on" buy for those that already have pricier iPod and Macintosh. Creative, unfortunately, will not be able to profit much from Apple's flawless execution.

benhur
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Jan 2001

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01/14, 05:32pm | report spam | close Reply |
he's arrogant but has. .

point. The shuffle is nothing new. It works with iTunes and is designed by Apple. Feature wise, it is generations old. Same with the iPod actually. No FM tuner, standard color screen.

I know, Apple ease of use and the iTunes store, design. But why not offer comparable features. The margins on the iPods are huge. I wish Apple would add the features perhaps eating into the margins, but not by much. Yes, iPods are selling like crazy but people still buy the competition because they want a tuner or whatever.

Apple, add these tiny features and be done with it.

blizaine
Mac Enthusiast

Joined: Jan 1999

0

01/14, 05:32pm | report spam | close Reply |
next week

I'm looking forward to next week (or whenever) , when Apple annouces they have already sold 5 Gazillian iPod shuffles in a week.

Creative will be saying "I just don't get it #@#!"

lol

inkswamp
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Feb 2003

0

01/14, 05:34pm | report spam | close Reply |
Those grapes must be sour

Creative... yet another company like Real that could have had the jump on Apple in the digital music arena had they had the initiative and vision. (Ironic that neither company lives up to its name, eh?) Now it's all come down to just carping and whining. And you know, companies don't issue these kinds of public statements unless they are scared.

Also, I wholeheartedly agree with minimansion that the iPod's success is all about the entire experience not just the player. That's why all these wannabes will fail--including Microsoft--because they think that being good at one part of the whole picture is good enough. It isn't. If it were, companies doing this would have taken off long before the iPod and iTunes came along. Apple's real coup was recognizing that nobody offered a whole, integrated experience and how much that would change things.

One other thing to remember is that the iPod and iTunes branding is phenomenal. "Branding" is a hot buzzword amongst marketing folks right now, and believe me, the iPod/iTunes branding is a marketing person's wet dream. An Apple branded iPod player will wipe out the low-end player segment easily. If the product is quality, Apple will have loads of converts. Creative understands all this, thus the public griping. They're trying to do pre-emptive damage control. I don't blame 'em, but I think it's too little, too late.

Drakino
Grizzled Veteran

Joined: Apr 2001

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01/14, 05:48pm | report spam | close Reply |
iPod shades

"Not to mention, that once you decide to upgrade, you buy another iPod and still have the SAME music, playlists and everything.."

Ahh, the good old Apple blinders iPod owners wear. It's hard to name a hard drive player that doesn't include software to do this. In general, the Rio Music Manager actually offers more features then iTunes. When you hit the limit of music on an iPod, you have to manually add music (though this may have changed with the iPod Shuffle). The Rio Music Manager can start swapping around my music on my player no matter if it stores 128MB or 20GB. And it gives you options for doing this based on wanting new music on the player first, or other factors.

The ONLY things the iPod has over any competitior is three fold:
Design look. The iPod in many peoples eyes looks better

Marketing. Apple actually runs ads for the player.

Support for the iTunes music store.

Beyond that, the iPod line usually has worse battery life, less supported file formats, a bigger size then some of the competitors, less control over music, no gapless playback, no crossfading, bad EQ, and less features in both the dock and player.

Sadly the faults are easially looked over by buyers, and thus the market grows. It's ironic that iPod owners who also own a Mac think market share is the only thing that matters for the iPod and allow that to cloud their judgement, but will turn around and argue until they are blue in the face about how the 2% Mac market share doesn't matter.

For the record I own Mac products and consider myself a switcher. I just also use an MP3 player that has the features I want, and the iPod wasn't it.

dece
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Dec 2003

0

01/14, 05:51pm | report spam | close Reply |
Creative

If they had said something like, "We believe our superior price-point and years of experience will ultimately prove more important than the name 'iPod.'" it wouldn't be so bad, but "The industry is going to laugh at them" is just asinine.

garmonbosia
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Aug 2002

0

01/14, 05:56pm | report spam | close Reply |
Predictions..

1. Apple will sell more iPod Shuffles in the next quarter than all other flash players combined.

2. Creative's CEO Sim Wong Hoo will look like the black knight on Monty Python's Holy Grail. With his arms and legs cut off, he'll be screaming "come back here Steve Jobs, next quarter I'll sell more batteries than you!"

3. Bill Gates will swear he's never met Sim Wong Hoo, and would never own a Zen Micro.

mmunz
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Sep 2004

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01/14, 06:01pm | report spam | close Reply |
Once again..

the competition misses the point.

#1 - I purchased an iPod shuffle. I also questioned the screen thing, but I don't anymore. I have my favorite songs on there and I just listen to them. No complicated interfaces to deal with. It is one of those things that you have to use it to really understand why the screen is unnecessary.

#2 - the technology may be "old", but the fact is the iPod shuffle is a bargain. $149 for 1GB player/flash drive. Last I checked, Creative was selling their 512MB players for $129. $99 gets you 64MB/128MB on most flash players -- or 512MB iPod shuffle.

#3 - Tech-Bling: they look cool and are light. The result -- you're more likely to wear them everyday. Competition doesn't have any of that.

I have an 40GB iPod, but see myself using the iPod shuffle way more.

Jablabla
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Jan 2000

0

01/14, 06:06pm | report spam | close Reply |
display?

You would need a microscope to read a display.

When Apple store gets stocked in my area I'm a buyer. Been procrastinating on ipod because it had a disk drive. Did not need that capacity.

Price is good.

hardcat1970
Grizzled Veteran

Joined: May 2000

0

01/14, 06:18pm | report spam | close Reply |
Just look?

if you think iPod's success is because it just looks better or it's a trendy thing, then your view is not so insightful at all.

Apple sells well is because it has the best software and hardware combination out there. Sadly, Creative and other suckers don't get it, look they even outdone the ipod mini with 10 colors on the Zen Micro, and made all its accessories white. But they still based on the ugly and confusing WMA players. Who are they kidding?

by the way, what's the point of buying songs from different music stores and set up so many different accounts when you get the same catalog or maybe 10 cents difference and different DRM management in other stores?

slboett
Grizzled Veteran

Joined: May 1999

0

01/14, 06:26pm | report spam | close Reply |
Bwahaha

I have four iPods in my house. I WILL buy an iPod Shuffle (or two) as soon as they land in the stores - they are totally different products, but have the SAME ease of use and setup - no extra anything for me to do...
I have to laugh - my AAPL stock has doubled in the last three months.

Bye bye Creative.

SB

horvatic
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Apr 2002

0

01/14, 06:30pm | report spam | close Reply |
Laugh it up now Creative

Yea, go ahead and laugh it up now Creative because next quarter you might not think Apple's product is so funny anymore. After all the day it was announced the iPod shuffle sold out at the S.F. store in about 2 hours or less. Apple doesn't make products like anyone else either and I know there was no product like the iPod shuffle on the market period.

Kirke
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Oct 2004

0

01/14, 06:37pm | report spam | close Reply |
It's the package deal

I'm glad to see that some of you "get it." The iPod is a success because it is such a beautifully simple product. And half the reason why is because of iTunes.

I heard a guy on the train the other day talking to someone about iTunes. "Once you download the software, you put your CD in and it automatically loads all the song names. You just push one button and it copies it to your computer." Then with the iPod, you plug it in and iTunes automatically syncs it up. It's so darn easy, people have no problems ripping all their CDs (making their player more valuable to them) and loading it up with whatever songs they want. It might not be "hard" to do that with other set ups, but it can be just enough of a hassle to turn you off. Even the fact that the iPod charges through the same cable that loads the music is part of the package. Sure it's not hard to change batteries, but why bother. Apple figured this all out with the first iPod and everyone else just tries to catch up.

The shuffle is just another step in the path. For users like me who rarely look at the screen, having a player that small that I can put in my shirt pocket with a day's worth of music for $99 is incredible. Virgin announced a tiny coin-shaped player a few days before the Expo. It also omits the screen, but it costs more and brags about the convenience of "adding music by simply dragging your music files onto it." Gee thanks, the Finder/Windows Explorer is a wonderful way to organize music files.

The shuffle is genius from a business perspective too. Without a screen, it is clearly distinguished from the mini, thereby not cannibalizing mini sales (or pissing off the millions of folks who got on for Christmas).

Armas
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Jan 2002

0

01/14, 06:42pm | report spam | close Reply |
Why iPod is #1 ???

Creative upped it's forecast, and expects to sell US $360 million this quarter....up 45% (and these guys say they will waste $100 million in advertising, and beat Apple in 1 year?? Apple can afford more...)
Apple just announced it sold $1.211 Billion this quarter, up 500% ( or growth over 10 X's what Creative did ) 65% of all MP3 player sales - and now they start to compete in flash markets....

I think a LOT of Mac users miss the success here....morons who can't even tell you what an OS is, can buy music, and HEAR it on an iPod. It's not a Camera/Cell/Radio/thing, no manuals required, Software sucks your CD's into a computer and syncs to player...

Noone who understands MUSIC needs a screen ( see cassette players, etc. ) You HEAR it! Flat out, anyone can listen to an iPod- features like "It plays my music " gramma can understand...

mouseketter
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Sep 2004

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01/14, 07:00pm | report spam | close Reply |
What the other guys have

A little searching on www.froogle.com and www.shopzilla.com comes up with more than a dozen screen less, super small, flash drive digital music players.

Some have less memory than the iPod Shuffle. Some have more. Some cost less. Some cost more. There quite a few that sell for 99.00 with only 256 mg's of memory and no screen. So why are the competitors only attacking the iPod Shuffle.

Virgin, Nike, RCA they all make a screen less micro sized mp3 player. Are they fools and the people that buy there products fools too?

What these competitors are doing is not just attacking the iPod but they are telling potential customers "This product is lame and your lame if you buy it." Fortunately, based on market share, the cutovers are not listening. And companies like Creative do not understand why.

jconstant
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Sep 2002

0

01/14, 07:18pm | report spam | close Reply |
Creative

Everyone should listen to Creative. They know this market which is why they have a near monopoly on the mp3 player market. Oh, wait, no, that's Apple. Nevermind.

The iPod Shuffle will be a smash hit, just like the others. I just read that preorders for the Shuffle in Japan already exceed the presorders they had for the mini.

Paul Huang
Dedicated MacNNer

Joined: Sep 1999

0

01/14, 07:25pm | report spam | close Reply |
Next iPod will...

Next iPod will allow you to dump songs on a play list to another iPod. I am dreaming, but this would be a huge selling point.

hardcat1970
Grizzled Veteran

Joined: May 2000

0

01/14, 07:28pm | report spam | close Reply |
market share

once again it proves that the street is biased to apple. When creative announced their sales up to 45%, but actual market share is falling, no one reports it. but apple's computer business is up and market share is losing and everyone else saying apple is doomed.

Deal
Mac Enthusiast

Joined: Apr 2001

0

01/14, 08:05pm | report spam | close Reply |
Just Watch

In another year or so, Creative will be making 3rd party products for the iPods ;)

f1000
Professional Poster

Joined: Jan 2003

0

01/14, 08:17pm | report spam | close Reply |
Market share?

http://news.com.com/Its+all+about+the+iPod/2100-1041_3-5406519.html

Apple now owns over 92.1% of the market for hard drive based music players, up from 82.2% a year ago.

They will undoubtedly take at least half of the flash player market as well, and thus own almost the entire digital music player market.

Creative might be doing good selling upgrade cards to PC modders, but it isn't going to be making much money for long in the flash player market. They should get out while they're ahead.

ADeweyan
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Mar 2004

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01/14, 08:21pm | report spam | close Reply |
Just...don't...get it

They really just don't get it (and this goes much further than this statement from Creative). People don't want to buy technology, they want to buy a tool.

Creative designs their players to look like they came out of a science fiction movie. They've got little buttons and greeblies all over the place. The iPods are designed more like a hammer is designed. Their form is determined by their function -- sized to be easy to hold; controls located where the fingers naturally lie; circular scroll motion a smooth and natural motion.

As long as Creative keeps mistaking this as a fight over technology, they're going to stay in the doldrums. It isn't JUST design, it is ALL design -- and design is much, much more than just looking good and being trendy.

panjandrum
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Dec 2004

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01/14, 08:26pm | report spam | close Reply |
Have to admit

I have to admit I was also hugely disappointed with the iPod shuffle and the Mac Mini announcements. The iPod shuffle? I wouldn't consider purchasing one, period. It IS a joke, no screen? No decent way to navigate songs? No way? I hope it flops big time so Apple will wake up and build what people want. But who knows, maybe it will catch on. The Mac Mini is just a tad bit too little for the money. The 256mb just isn't enough, nor is a 40gb drive. Maybe there just isn't any way to do it at that price point, but it should really have 512/80 at the $499 price tag. At least the Mac Mini won't be useless, but like the guys at Creative, I was actually *laughing* during Steve Jobs' iPod Shuffle presentation. Thinking to myself the even the patented Steve Jobs' reality distortion field can't bamboozle into buying that thing. Or can it????

sosumi
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: May 1999

0

01/14, 08:30pm | report spam | close Reply |
er, hrmmm...

troll. take a hike you useless t**.

Sydney Tsai
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Feb 2002

0

01/14, 08:48pm | report spam | close Reply |
Why laugh?

Oh does the FM , displayed mp3 player has this size and weight?

even so, does it look so good?
Creative is not so creative nowsaday...

Do you think people would like a small mp3 player with those feature?
I think FM might be the only feature.

bluejfk
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Jul 2002

0

01/14, 10:26pm | report spam | close Reply |
No Screen??.....Morons

When I go run with my ipod shuffle I just dont see my self looking at a screen unless I want to run into a tree or car.

When I go work out I am not going to be looking at the screen either.

I very rarely look at my screen on my 20" iPod....For me it is all about playlists.

The ipod shuffle fills a niche nicely and will destory all competition in that niche.

Roehlstation
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Aug 2001

0

01/15, 12:08am | report spam | close Reply |
The numbers

Let's see, Apple sold 2,000 iPod Shuffle's in the first Day at their SanFrancisco Store in four hours. Did Creative sell 2,000 players last week?

kw99
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Nov 2001

0

01/15, 12:09am | report spam | close Reply |
They did NOT do it...

No one else has done "it" before - sell a 512k flash-based music player for less than $100. The competitors are not laughing. I'll bet that Creative will be the first "laughing" competitor to introduce a screenless 512k (and larger) player like iPod shuffle.

Unfortunately (for Creative), it will still fall short because:

* Only Apple has iTunes to make using a screenless music player interesting and fun to use.
* Only iPods play songs from iTunes Music Store.
* Only Apple has the volume purchasing power to buy the flash and other components at a steep discount, allowing a price that undercuts the competition while maintaining healthy profit margins.

This CEO Sim Wong Hoo is a fool to make such comments because he will look like a fool when his company releases their inevitable knockoff of the iPod shuffle.

crawlingparanoia
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Aug 2001

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01/15, 12:18am | report spam | close Reply |
Re:iPod shades

"In general, the Rio Music Manager actually offers more features then iTunes. When you hit the limit of music on an iPod, you have to manually add music (though this may have changed with the iPod Shuffle)."

This is not true, and never was true.

"The Rio Music Manager can start swapping around my music on my player no matter if it stores 128MB or 20GB. And it gives you options for doing this based on wanting new music on the player first, or other factors."

So does iTunes.

JEB
Junior Member

Joined: May 2001

0

01/15, 12:27am | report spam | close Reply |
oooopssis

oops,

I reached into my pocket for some gum, and swallowed my iPod Shuffle!!

Just glad it wasn't a Creative, which, by the way, tastes like really bad beef jerky.

VadersCape
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Mar 2004

0

01/15, 01:23am | report spam | close Reply |
There He Goes Again!

Somebody wasn't watching the doors and Some Wrong Who escaped from the asylum again.

deasys
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Aug 2001

0

01/15, 01:46am | report spam | close Reply |
Hey, Drakino!

"When you hit the limit of music on an iPod, you have to manually add music"

Not true. iTunes 4.7.1 supports auto-fill.

"the iPod line usually has worse battery life"

Not true. Unlike its competitors, Apple doesn't exaggerate battery life claims. BTW, the iPod shuffle and iPod photo both get at least 15 hours of music play time.

"less supported file formats"

Not true.

Show me a player that supports more than the 6 formats that the iPod supports (AAC (16 to 320 Kbps), MP3 (32 to 320 Kbps), MP3 VBR, Apple Lossless, WAV, AIFF, Audible).

"less control over music"

In what way?

"no gapless playback"

Not true.

"no crossfading"

Not true.

"bad EQ"

Huh? BTW, which other players provide 20 presets?

It looks to me like nothing in your posting was based on fact.

jaxxe
Junior Member

Joined: Mar 2001

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01/15, 02:26am | report spam | close Reply |
iPod Shuffle & Audible

Yes, iPod Shuffle will make an awesome Audible Book player. I own the 40GB, and listen to Audible Books. I'm in the market for a USB memory stick, and I feel that the iPod Shuffle is perfect for Audible Books! Who needs a display for this use?

very
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Jan 2005

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01/15, 03:09am | report spam | close Reply |
Perfect for Colleges

I have been recommending Faculty, Staff, and Students (FSS) to but USB drive so that they can easily transfer their files for whatever purpose they have. I usually recommend to get at least 256 MB USB drive that usually cost $40 on average. The bigger the capacity, the better. I also noticed that a large percentage of the FSS own or plan to get iPod. iPod shuffle is the economical way to have both device. I guarantee that a really large portion of the students will buy iPod shuffle. It is not that much more than the regular USB drive, and it plays music (MP3's the preferred format, not AAC, or the AWFUL!!! WMA). Plus, the brand recognition will help sell the iPod shuffle. Those who owns iPod/iPod mini/iPod photo will definitely be looking to get iPod shuffle cause by comparisons, it's so freaking cheap. Nice to have "another iPod" to carry around without worrying to damage a $250+ music player.

One thing about Creative is that their supports are terrible. Have you ever tried to find drivers for their devices? Almost of the time, you need to have the original CD/Disk that came in the box, if not....... tough luck. Creative seems to only provide updates on their sites.

ASDF

Drakino
Grizzled Veteran

Joined: Apr 2001

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01/15, 03:45am | report spam | close Reply |
Hey deasys!

"Not true. iTunes 4.7.1 supports auto-fill."

And that came out what, this past week? I've had this feature for over two years now.

"Not true. Unlike its competitors, Apple doesn't exaggerate battery life claims. BTW, the iPod shuffle and iPod photo both get at least 15 hours of music play time."

Wow, an amazing 15 hours. Back when I got my Karma, the iPod 20 gig was lucky to hit 12. The Karma does 16 easially, I tested it myself with playback at near full volume to the headphones. The Carbon (5gb) gets 20 hours. The Rio Flash players all average at least 20 hours as well, if not more. And Samung had a 42 hour player shown at CES off one AA battery.

"Show me a player that supports more than the 6 formats that the iPod supports (AAC (16 to 320 Kbps), MP3 (32 to 320 Kbps), MP3 VBR, Apple Lossless, WAV, AIFF, Audible)."

Lets see, my Karma does MP3, MP3 VBR, WAV, FLAC, OGG, WMA, Audible. AIFF too, since AIFF is just WAV without a header.

"less control over music"
"In what way?"

No bookmarks feature, something I use a lot. No way to reorder the song playback order on the device. Not sure if the iPod allows playlist editing on the device, but my Karma does. No hierarchical playlists. Nothing to match the "Rio DJ" playback modes like the Sounds of the 1970s. No equivelent to the "Party Shuffle" view iTunes offers on the iPod. "Now and Next" is what the Karma calls it.

"no gapless playback"
"Not true."

Since when could the iPod playback files gapless? And does it also assist in gapless playback by skipping blank data frames at the end of a song?

"no crossfading"
"Not true."

This must also be very new to the iPod. Oh wait, it's not on any iPod I have looked at including the 4G one.

"bad EQ"
Huh? BTW, which other players provide 20 presets?

The Rio Karma has a full 5 band EQ that I can set instead of using cheesy "Rock" or whatever presets. It also offers multiband Auto Gain control for better audio leveling.

"It looks to me like nothing in your posting was based on fact."

Except pretty much all of it.

Oh, one other nice thing on the Karma, ethernet on the dock. I have ethernet in my home entertainment system now due to the XBox, so now I can just put my included dock in the living room to play music, and still sync songs to it.

Drakino
Grizzled Veteran

Joined: Apr 2001

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01/15, 03:46am | report spam | close Reply |
Hey deasys!

"Not true. iTunes 4.7.1 supports auto-fill."

And that came out what, this past week? I've had this feature for over two years now.

"Not true. Unlike its competitors, Apple doesn't exaggerate battery life claims. BTW, the iPod shuffle and iPod photo both get at least 15 hours of music play time."

Wow, an amazing 15 hours. Back when I got my Karma, the iPod 20 gig was lucky to hit 12. The Karma does 16 easially, I tested it myself with playback at near full volume to the headphones. The Carbon (5gb) gets 20 hours. The Rio Flash players all average at least 20 hours as well, if not more. And Samung had a 42 hour player shown at CES off one AA battery.

"Show me a player that supports more than the 6 formats that the iPod supports (AAC (16 to 320 Kbps), MP3 (32 to 320 Kbps), MP3 VBR, Apple Lossless, WAV, AIFF, Audible)."

Lets see, my Karma does MP3, MP3 VBR, WAV, FLAC, OGG, WMA, Audible. AIFF too, since AIFF is just WAV without a header.

"less control over music"
"In what way?"

No bookmarks feature, something I use a lot. No way to reorder the song playback order on the device. Not sure if the iPod allows playlist editing on the device, but my Karma does. No hierarchical playlists. Nothing to match the "Rio DJ" playback modes like the Sounds of the 1970s. No equivelent to the "Party Shuffle" view iTunes offers on the iPod. "Now and Next" is what the Karma calls it.

"no gapless playback"
"Not true."

Since when could the iPod playback files gapless? And does it also assist in gapless playback by skipping blank data frames at the end of a song?

"no crossfading"
"Not true."

This must also be very new to the iPod. Oh wait, it's not on any iPod I have looked at including the 4G one.

"bad EQ"
Huh? BTW, which other players provide 20 presets?

The Rio Karma has a full 5 band EQ that I can set instead of using cheesy "Rock" or whatever presets. It also offers multiband Auto Gain control for better audio leveling.

"It looks to me like nothing in your posting was based on fact."

Except pretty much all of it.

Oh, one other nice thing on the Karma, ethernet on the dock. I have ethernet in my home entertainment system now due to the XBox, so now I can just put my included dock in the living room to play music, and still sync songs to it.

bigpoppa206
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Jun 2003

0

01/15, 06:51am | report spam | close Reply |
don't...

feed the OBVIOUS trolls!

wrwjpn
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Nov 2002

0

01/15, 09:44am | report spam | close Reply |
Drakino

Yeah, but which player commands the market? Which player is in the news? Which player has Grammy Winners endorsing it? Which player has customers waiting to purchase one? If you want your Karma, whether that is good or bad (pun intended), I think the market has shown which is superior in user friendilness, design, and also cross platform compatible.

I was looking for a year at different players, but which was the easiest, most pleasant, and could work on at least two platforms (Windows [work] and Mac [home]) as well in the near future on Linux hopefully.

What about the Karma? What is it's market share? Are people standing in line to buy one?

Bill

deasys
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Aug 2001

0

01/15, 10:23am | report spam | close Reply |
Re: Hey deasys!

"The Carbon (5gb) gets 20 hours"

Rio's specs say, "UP TO 20 hours." As I said, that's exaggerating. BTW, that Samsung doesn't count--it's not rechargeable.

"Lets see, my Karma does MP3, MP3 VBR, WAV, FLAC, OGG, WMA, Audible"

That's strange: the Rio support page only mentions WMA, Ogg Vorbis, FLAC and MP3. The count appears to be still 2 formats short of the number the iPod supports. Can you point me to a more complete spec page for the Karma?

"AIFF is just WAV without a header."

Interesting. There are many who disagree with you. For example:

WAV
www.borg.com/~jglatt/tech/wave.htm (see "A Bastardized Standard")

Definitions
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WAV
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AIFF

Note that both formats use 'chunking,' i.e. header data. Do you have an *authoritative* link that says otherwise?

BTW, Rio nowhere mentions support for AIFF.

"No bookmarks feature"

Users of Audible audiobooks on the iPod will be surprised to hear that...

"no way to reorder the song playback order on the device"

You mean other than being able to select shuffle or 'in order' option and the ability to directly create on-the-go playlists? Sheesh...

"Nothing to match the "Rio DJ" playback modes like the Sounds of the 1970s"

That's what playlists and smart playlists are for.

"Since when could the iPod playback files gapless?"

Since it supported AAC files, which provide that capability natively and even before that by setting iTunes' preferences for cross-fade accordingly.

"The Rio Karma has a full 5 band EQ"

The iPod's equalization is based on iTunes' 10-band equalizer. It's your Rio that's "cheesy."

"now I can just put my included dock in the living room to play music, and still sync songs to it."

Wow! I wish Apple had something like that!

Clueless....

JoshFofer
Junior Member

Joined: Nov 1999

0

01/15, 12:56pm | report spam | close Reply |
Autofill

"Not true. iTunes 4.7.1 supports auto-fill."

"And that came out what, this past week? I've had this feature for over two years now."

iTunes has had the ability to auto-fill smaller iPods for many years now as well. I have over 80 GB of music and yet my iPod mini and 40 GB (4G) unit get automatically refreshed with whatever selection of playlists (both "smart" and otherwise.) Works perfectly, no "manual" adding of individual tracks needed. Of course that option exists as well, on top of the automatic.

The only thing new about this "feature" of iTunes 4.7.1, for cooperation with the iPod shuffle, is that they gave it a name and a dedicated button. It's as if they just created a smart playlist that randomly selects (and/or refreshes) 512 MB of music, and optionally favoring your highest rated songs.

Please get a clue before trying to come off like some expert.

Putta
Junior Member

Joined: Aug 2002

0

01/15, 01:22pm | report spam | close Reply |
Another idi*t

I love the fact that everytime Apple does anything with the iPod everyone says it'll fail, right before it takes off to the extreme.

The display would be nice, but with the market they're looking at, storage and price are the aspects which will sell. I have a 23,000 song music collection and a 15Gb iPod. I listen to all my music on my iPod with the so-called shuffle setting and it works great.

This will be a killer, though maybe not quite to the level of the other iPods.

As for Creative, Dell and a whole lot of other people have better and nicer players on the market. Then again, the problem with the ordinary man is that he is quite simply too ordinary and there enter Creative's customers...

VadersCape
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Mar 2004

0

01/15, 04:46pm | report spam | close Reply |
Some Wrong Who?

They've had automobiles for a good number of years too, but there's something to be said for the way folks like BMW, Lexus, etc. put those "old" features together.

Drakino
Grizzled Veteran

Joined: Apr 2001

0

01/15, 09:11pm | report spam | close Reply |
Round 3

"I think the market has shown which is superior in user friendilness, design, and also cross platform compatible"

By that logic, Windows is the most user friendly OS... We all know how that isn't true... Again see my comment about the Apple blinders how people who argue that both the iPod and the Mac are the best end up using conflicting logic if they bring up market share. Market share doesn't define the best, just who is the best at marketing.

"but which was the easiest, most pleasant, and could work on at least two platforms (Windows [work] and Mac [home]) as well in the near future on Linux hopefully."

The Karma works now with any platform capable of at least ethernet and java. Thus Windows, Mac, Linux, Solaris, Tru64, HP-UX and so on. Plug it into the dock, go to the ip of the Karma, and you have a java applet. Or on Windows use the Rio Music Manager, and soon on the Mac iTunes.

"Rio's specs say, "UP TO 20 hours." As I said, that's exaggerating."

No, no it's not. Get a Carbon, attach headphones, tell it to play. Come back 19 hours later and it will be playing still and might start warning the battery is low.

"The count appears to be still 2 formats short of the number the iPod supports. Can you point me to a more complete spec page for the Karma?"

WAV support is pointless to include when you have a lossless compression like FLAC as an option. Audible.com lists the Karma as compatible.

"AIFF is just WAV without a header."

Ok sorry, was mixing up AIFF with PCM raw for some reason. Thanks for the refresher. So the iPod does indeed play AIFF while the Karma doesn't. Don't think thats a huge buying feature there.

"No bookmarks feature"
"Users of Audible audiobooks on the iPod will be surprised to hear that..."

Thats new to me then too. Did that get added in the 4g unit? And does it allow multiple named bookmarks and work for music to save your current playlist?

"You mean other than being able to select shuffle or 'in order' option and the ability to directly create on-the-go playlists? Sheesh..."

Yes, I do mean other then turning on and off shuffle. Any any time on my Karma I can hit the Now and Next screen, and move the song order around however I like for then saving as a playlist. It isn't quite as full featured as the empeg where you can also tell it to yank songs out of the playlist based on artist, album etc...

" That's what playlists and smart playlists are for."

And thats only in iTunes. I'm on the road and want my iPod to play me my least recently heard songs in a shuffle format. Can the iPod do this based on real time data, or does it need iTunes? (Honestly curious, this also may be different then my last major exposure to the iPod)

"Since i

Drakino
Grizzled Veteran

Joined: Apr 2001

0

01/15, 09:11pm | report spam | close Reply |
Round 3 part 2

"Since it supported AAC files, which provide that capability natively and even before that by setting iTunes' preferences for cross-fade accordingly."

But can it do gapless of MP3 and other formats. Also I didn't know the crossfade option would carry over to the iPod, it didn't in the second gen unit. Can cross-fading be changed on the iPod real time?

"The Rio Karma has a full 5 band EQ"
"The iPod's equalization is based on iTunes' 10-band equalizer. It's your Rio that's "cheesy.""

You have proof of this? And even if it is true, that seems pretty tedious to change. Open iTunes, change EQ, sync to iPod, load EQ, listen, open iTunes to retweak, sync...

"now I can just put my included dock in the living room to play music, and still sync songs to it."
" Wow! I wish Apple had something like that!"

As do I. Last I saw, Apple lacked a dock with ethernet. Considering I don't have a firewire network in my house, I would have to buy 2 docks, one for the living room, and one for the computer room.

"Clueless...."

I'll admit I don't know the iPod down to the firmware code, but discussions like this do help me to learn. It still lacks things I would be lost without (some things you conveniently skipped commenting on). Remember, the best way to do well in a debate is to know both sides, so I hope in some way my info on the Karma is at least helping.

Eriamjh
Addicted to MacNN

Joined: Oct 2001

0

01/15, 10:25pm | report spam | close Reply |
Creative misses the point

The iPod shuffle has something Creative can never put on its products: the iPod name.

The shuffle will succeed and all will be baffled.

aristotles
Grizzled Veteran

Joined: Jul 2004

0

01/16, 06:47pm | report spam | close Reply |
One line display useless

If you are walking/biking or jogging, a display is just a distraction from keeping your eyes on the road you're on.

Long song names would end up scrolling and defeat any purpose the display might serve.

If you want to be able to find a song easily, build your own playlist.

imac53
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Jan 2005

0

01/23, 03:36pm | report spam | close Reply |
Creative, Ha !

Who had the first digital audio player ? Was it Creative ?
I was given a MuVo which is a nice size and all, but guess what, IT DON'T WORK ON MAC !!
As for the ( I like the name "micro" too ) Shuffle my Wife is not a techno but she wants one BECAUSE of its simplicity.
I think Apple will do well with their new products.

imac53
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Jan 2005

0

01/23, 04:36pm | report spam | close Reply |
Creative, Ha !

Who had the first digital audio player ? Was it Creative ?
I was given a MuVo which is a nice size and all, but guess what, IT DON'T WORK ON MAC !!
As for the ( I like the name "micro" too ) Shuffle my Wife is not a techno but she wants one BECAUSE of its simplicity.
I think Apple will do well with their new products.

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Creative: 'industry will laugh' at iPod shuffle

updated 04:45 pm EST, Fri January 14, 2005

Creative snubs Apple

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