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Apple struggle

updated 02:30 pm EST, Wed December 22, 2004

EU ruling to help Apple

AudioGoGo says Real Networks has done "some quality legal and lobbying work that will ." The European Union has ordered that Microsoft stop bundling its Media Player with Windows. The article points out that "when Real Networks started all this work, the media fight was between Microsoft and Real Networks... If anyone has been paying attention, it is now about Windows Media, vs. iTunes." Real Networks and Apple have recently been involved in a dispute over Real's Harmony technology: "Apple just kicked Real Networks hard by blocking its Harmony music service from offering higher quality 192 kbps music to new and updated iPod owners."

by MacNN Staff

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Avenir
Mac Elite

Joined: Jan 2000

0

12/22, 02:50pm | report spam | close Reply |
i like this

"because unlike Microsoft, Apple doesn�t want to play with others"

good, I don't like playing with others.

abe2
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Dec 2004

0

12/22, 02:54pm | report spam | close Reply |
Queue...

Queue the rabbid Apple zealots in 3... 2... 1...

t_hah
Mac Elite

Joined: Dec 2000

0

12/22, 02:57pm | report spam | close Reply |
I don't understand...

Apple has never officially supported Real compatibility. Real created a "hacked" solution, which has been changed. Why is this Apple's fault? Apple has never offcially said that they were supporting Real's files...

phillymjs
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Jun 2000

0

12/22, 03:04pm | report spam | close Reply |
WTF???

From the article: "The fact is Windows users love to try new things. Right now on Windows, the alternative browser Firefox is making good headway for a product that is not bundled with anything and does its advertising word of mouth with free ads on websites."

Bwahahahahaha! "Windows users love to try new things"! That's hilarious. Except for games, the Windows users I know use what came with their computer, and that's it. Their 1-year antivirus subscriptions that come with the computer expire and go unrenewed. They don't install or use anti-spyware apps. They are completely apathetic when it comes to seeking out alternatives, even in the face of things like IE allowing stealth installs of spyware, adware, data miners and keyloggers. That's why Microsoft fought so hard to keep IE shipping as part of Windows... they knew user inertia would put the screws to Netscape's market share more certainly than anything else.

IE achieved "unsecure, feature-lacking POS" status YEARS ago, and only now are average Windows users becoming fed up enough with it to seek out a better browser-- they just rolled over put up with malware for all that time. Love to try new things, indeed.

redwood
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Oct 2003

0

12/22, 03:12pm | report spam | close Reply |
Good for real

It shows that Real is giving back to the community and supporting freedom of choice. Good for Real and ultimately good for the entire computing community, which is everyone these days.

SomeToast
Senior User

Joined: Jan 1999

0

12/22, 03:19pm | report spam | close Reply |
re: Queue...

Queue the rabbid Apple zealots in 3... 2... 1...

Cue the rabid spelling and usage zealots in 3... 2... 1...

freakboy2
Dedicated MacNNer

Joined: Oct 2002

0

12/22, 03:24pm | report spam | close Reply |
queue

Q the l33t haxors pwning the lamerz queue pr3dicting l0serz 3... 2... 1... pwnd

Anilan
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Jan 2004

0

12/22, 03:30pm | report spam | close Reply |
Pffftt...

3rd graders share. Big kids don't.

ApeInTheShell
Senior User

Joined: Nov 2002

0

12/22, 05:13pm | report spam | close Reply |
Silly

"Apple just kicked Real Networks hard by blocking its Harmony music service from offering higher quality 192 kbps music to new and updated iPod owners."

Imagine football analysts saying this and you have what people call news nowadays. We already know what happened, the protests, and heard the responses. Why run a similar article about the same thing unless it's newsworthy? It's not.
Let's just make up news from no on. It is beginning to feel like a rumor site already.

ZOM 77
Junior Member

Joined: Jun 2001

0

12/22, 05:22pm | report spam | close Reply |
why?

whats wrong w. MS including their media player w. windows?
apple includes quicktime . . .
the only thing wrong would be if microsoft forced companies not to include real or quicktime . . .
i donno
doenst make sense
ms media player on windows is a great application (though i dont have windows - mac man) . . .why not let it be bundled >?
this is all getting out of hand

testudo
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Aug 2001

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12/22, 05:53pm | report spam | close Reply |
Re: why?

For the exact reason phillymis said, Windows users tend to use what's on their computer. By forcing IE into the OS and onto all PCs, MS garnered huge share quickly, not from earning it, but from bullying it in there. Now what do we have on the web? A ton of sites that don't act well unless you're running IE, because that's what a large majority of users use.

WMP is the same thing. If it 'earns' a place on the machine, that's fine. If it gets installed with other players, and Windows lets the user decide, that's fine too. But forcing it on computers (and also keeping competitors off) is what brings this action.

BTW, WMP is a crappy app. The look blows, the interface blows, how it organizes music blows. I mean, what's the deal with the freakin' menu bar. Its hidden most of the time, then shows when you move your mouse where its supposed to be? Who comes up with these ideas - 6 year olds or something?

ZOM 77
Junior Member

Joined: Jun 2001

0

12/22, 07:03pm | report spam | close Reply |
re re why

if you ask me , its part of the system . . .
just like apples mail app is part of their system . . .
should they stop bundling it ?
ms isnt stopping anyone from including quicktime or real player
are they?
i think ms should include media player as part of their system,
and should include other formats.
i think every computer should come with real quicktime and ms media anyway . . .it is needed these days . . .

macimmortal
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Aug 2001

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12/22, 07:22pm | report spam | close Reply |
Re: re re why

"i think ms should include media player as part of their system"

I think MS should remove their system from the market. Nothing that Microsoft has is rightfully theirs. Nothing they sell was created by Microsoft. EVERYTHING was either bought, coerced, or stolen. I still vote for splitting them up into tiny pieces.

ZOM 77
Junior Member

Joined: Jun 2001

0

12/22, 07:31pm | report spam | close Reply |
hey

we need microsoft . . .
what would apple users be able to gloat about otherwise !?

clash
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Aug 2001

0

12/22, 07:41pm | report spam | close Reply |
RE: Re: re re why

I think, some people may be missing the point of the MS problem......Microsoft deosn't make their own computer, Apple does, when MS makes their own machines, thay can put whatever they want on it, like Apple does.

ZOM 77
Junior Member

Joined: Jun 2001

0

12/22, 07:50pm | report spam | close Reply |
re re re re re re re re

doesnt matter who makes the machine (well it does)
but not in the case of should they include certain software on the machine.
they are including free software that enables the user to watch videos and listen to music . . .
it is part of their system . . .
nothing is stopping the computer seller to include real or quicktime . .
i dont think anyone would complain about microsoft including ms office with machines , because their is no proper competition - and its usually 300$
why complain that they are giving ppl free software just because competition exists . . .
this is not like when they forced computer sellers to not include netscape and only include IE . . .

face it . . . nobody would buy a dell without windows on it . . .
dell is useless . . . its ms that makes the product sell .. .
sad but true.
untill solaris or lindows is a viable replacement - its all ms or nutin

driven
Addicted to MacNN

Joined: May 2001

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12/22, 09:30pm | report spam | close Reply |
they do stop others ...

ZOM 77,

Microsoft actually did build a clause into their OEM license agreements that stated that WMP9 had to have an icon on the desktop and that other media players (including iTunes & Real) could NOT be shown on the desktop.

That was part of the lawsuit.

ZOM 77
Junior Member

Joined: Jun 2001

0

12/22, 10:39pm | report spam | close Reply |
b*******

i seeee
thats wrong then . . .

just a poster
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Jun 2004

0

12/22, 11:36pm | report spam | close Reply |
Re: why?

whats wrong w. MS including their media player w. windows?
apple includes quicktime . . .

Because Microsoft is a monopoly. Right now content providers have a choice between three encoding methods: WMA, MOV, and whatever Realplayer's is (.rm?). The content needs to be encoded for a particular player, each server providing the content needs to run a particular streamer software for the content. That means to provide WMA files, the server must stream via Windows Media server (or whatever that POS is called). The only streamer that is free is Apple's, BTW, Darwin Streaming Server. In runs on OS X, Windows and Solaris.

Anyway, if you're a content provider and you have to pick one - just one - media file format to provide for your website, which do you pick? Answer, the one whose client is bundled with the majority of computers worldwide: Windows Media Player. Automatically, it doesn't matter whether the others are better or cost less - Windows Media Player is what web content providers pick because that's what's installed on all Windows computers 3-4 years old worldwide.

Well, the EU just kicked a great big hole in that line of reasoning, but it's anyone's guess whether that will be enough.

I'm all for things getting out of hand as long as Microsoft gets the shaft.

ZOM 77
Junior Member

Joined: Jun 2001

0

12/23, 01:26am | report spam | close Reply |
: )

just a poster ,
your the man

trevc
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Mar 2000

0

12/23, 03:01am | report spam | close Reply |
Chicken or the egg?

Was Real first into the media player arena?, or was Microsoft (probably Quicktime, but Apple didn't push it on the windows platform for some time (another mistake?))

Microsoft can crush a competitor because of marketshare. I recently was shown Microsoft Office Document Image Writer, which strangely works a LOT like Adobe Acrobat. All they have to do is release a cross platform reader and they'll eventually squash Adobe. Update Microsoft Paint, and they can start squashing Photoshop (not likely) but the realization is they have CLOUT!

I like sticking with the 'first one in' as a loyalty thing (i.e. Netscape, Coke ;-), etc., etc. )

bigpoppa206
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Jun 2003

0

12/23, 03:07am | report spam | close Reply |
yeah yeah yeah

And Microsoft can rule the Internet too...but look where they are now! Losing market share. People will use what they prefer, not what's shoved down our throats.

On the otherhand, Real does NOT offer a better product. Kudos to Apple for sticking to its guns!!!

AdamsApple
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Dec 2004

0

12/23, 07:28am | report spam | close Reply |
So are we next?

Ya know the Europeans are starting to look at apple for pricing. What if they decide having only one music store bundled with ipod is bad.

One thing I learned reading stuff on that site is that Real uses AAC just like iTunes and its in a higher quality bit rate. I had been told Real was hacking the ipod to play Windows files. Now it seems like maybe Apple is blocking choices I would have liked. Isn't that what got Windows sued? Just because we bought an iPod doesn't mean we don't like choices too? Maybe if Apple worked with Real, they would do a Mac version too and we would have more options.

I keep hearing, why should Apple have to support Real? Why does Windows have to support anything? Seems like the courts let some do business the way they want and some have extra rules, doesn't sound fair to me. It also sounds like it might be hard to guess when you will get sued.

mbryda
Senior User

Joined: Mar 2002

0

12/23, 08:52am | report spam | close Reply |
Past Actions

"the only thing wrong would be if microsoft forced companies not to include real or quicktime . . ."

That's how they did it with IE. Compaq wanted Netscape on the desktop. MS said no and almost pulled Compaq's OEM license. That would have been interesting as at the time Compaq was #1 in PC Sales. Would have been great - another OS probably woulud have been a great thing for PC users.

Eriamjh
Addicted to MacNN

Joined: Oct 2001

0

12/23, 09:28am | report spam | close Reply |
Apple...

...is not playing smart. If they don't open up, microsoft will crush iTunes.

mbryda
Senior User

Joined: Mar 2002

0

12/23, 09:50am | report spam | close Reply |
No they won't

"..is not playing smart. If they don't open up, microsoft will crush iTunes."

How many of the 50 or so WMA players were on people's Christmas lists this year? Hint: Few.

How many iPods were on people's Christmas lists this year? Hint: Most, if not all.

iPod is hot and you can only buy music at one store. People don't really care as all the stores are the same price ($0.99), so there is no value in another store for them.

The iPod has a huge market and mind share. Chances are it will still be selling like hotcakes well into '05 and beyond. MS can try, but this is one battle they have little chance of winning....

z10n
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Oct 2003

0

12/23, 10:27am | report spam | close Reply |
How about

An operating system that upon install, lets you CHOOSE between several competing brands of media player? Imagine that. Giving the user choice instead of shoving c*** down their throats that they may or may not want.

Believe it or not people, Apple is just as annoying with OS X, tying everything back to apple products (especially dotMac) as much as possible. You might not get that many pop-up ads and repeated requests like you do on windows, but you still upon install of OS X go into a state with a ton of Apple programs in the Dock and nearly ZERO 3rd party programs anywhere on the computer (except maybe Stuffit Expander). You still have a Software Update utility that only checks for updates for apple products and not 3rd parties. You still have problems when you remove apple programs from their default folders and then perform an upgrade. You still have programs from apple installed for every major task you do, regardless if you wanted them installed or not.

While this system might be great for Joe Newbie who has never used a computer before, when will companies that make operating systems get that their job is to make the best OPERATING SYSTEM, NOT supply every single G********* tool for every task the user does. Why do you think 3rd party programs exist, anyway?

Glasspusher
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Oct 2000

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12/23, 11:31am | report spam | close Reply |
Re:How about

Geez, what a great point! I guess Linux is just as annoying too, as many distros come with bundled apps (GIMP, OpenOffice, KMail), one for each use. Damn, Linux distros also give the user no choice.

Notice the difference with Apple and Linux, if you don't like their browsers, you can just THROW THEM AWAY (not "tied to the OS"). Note that they are not CONVICTED ABUSIVE MONOPOLISTS. Note that the only reason that they are around is that they offer something better than the swill M$ keeps offering. Note that Safari is not so riddled with holes that people are not encouraged to get a more secure browser.

Perfect? No. Better? Yes. Likely to take over the market with their apps by putting them on the desktop or Dock, and that alone? No.

Person Man
Professional Poster

Joined: Jun 2001

0

12/23, 12:09pm | report spam | close Reply |
Real vs. Apple

I keep hearing, why should Apple have to support Real?

It's not just "why should Apple have to support Real," it's "Why should Apple have to support Real's hacked version of FairPlay encoding?"

Because it was reverse engineered, Real's "version" of FairPlay is not 100% perfect. It has enough inconsistencies with the actual format that essentially "tie" it to a specific version of the FairPlay "interpreter" in the iPods. Now, what if Apple let Real continue to do it that way? Then other companies would come up with their own versions of FairPlay that would each have their own inconsistencies.

It is unfair for Apple to have to accommodate each different product's inconsistencies in their reverse engineered version of FairPlay. They shouldn't have to.

Apple will licence FairPlay to other parties WHEN THEY ARE READY TO. Those other parties will then use the same version of FairPlay that Apple uses, no reverse engineering with slight differences will be necessary.

Tongo
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Jun 2003

0

12/23, 06:44pm | report spam | close Reply |
re: How about

>While this system might be great for Joe Newbie
>who has never used a computer before, when
>will companies that make operating systems get
>that their job is to make the best OPERATING SYSTEM

I hear that's what OSX Server is all about. For Joe Newbie it might be hard to understand that all the fluff (apple apps, dot-Mac, etc) is inconsequental and can be used, not used, or even deleted/hidden without trouble. Joe Poweruser has no problem with them, nor do they get in his way.

Sooooo...why is it that the MS web browser cannot be uninstalled without "horking" the operating system? Why is it that the new WMP thing is going the same route as a web browser in that it not only comes with the system, it is part of the system?

I'd like to believe that MS or any computer company has the intention to sell the consumer what they want and compete with other computer makers based on quality of product alone...tho my experience with "the best" vs "the most" leads me to believe otherwise. And, since the EU court is the second court to find MS guilty of "naughty" business practices, I believe I am not alone in my suspicions.

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Editorial: irony in Real/Microsoft/Apple struggle

updated 02:30 pm EST, Wed December 22, 2004

EU ruling to help Apple

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i like this

Queue...

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WTF???

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re: Queue...

queue

Pffftt...

Silly

why?

Re: why?

re re why

Re: re re why

hey

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re re re re re re re re

they do stop others ...

b*******

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: )

Chicken or the egg?

yeah yeah yeah

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