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Mac creator: "the Mac is now a mess"

updated 10:10 am EDT, Fri October 22, 2004

\"The Mac is now a mess\"

In an interview with The Guardian: Jef Raskin, one of the creators of the Mac and inventor of the click-and-drag interface, says that the Mac interface has lost its edge: ". A third party manual (Pogue's The Missing Manual) is nearly 1,000 pages, and far from complete. Apple now does development by accretion, and there is only a little difference between using a Mac and a Windows machine...[And on the iMac]: The unfoldable portable-shaped box on a stalk? It is a practical and space-saving design. But the interface needs fixing. One only cares about getting something done. Apple has forgotten this key concept. The beautiful packaging is ho-hum and insignificant in the long run."

by MacNN Staff

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Nitride
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10/22, 10:20am | report spam | close Reply |
He didn't create the Mac

Raskin started a project that was called Macintosh, but it was not a GUI interface all-in-one with a vertical design and a mouse.

Steve Jobs pushed the Mac to what it became as as shipping product.

Raskin is just a bitter old man who was shown up by a young know-nothing named Steve Jobs.

macimmortal
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Joined: Aug 2001

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10/22, 10:23am | report spam | close Reply |
Dictionary.com

Difficult or distasteful to accept, admit, or bear: the bitter truth; bitter sorrow.

Proceeding from or exhibiting strong animosity: a bitter struggle; bitter foes.

Resulting from or expressive of severe grief, anguish, or disappointment: cried bitter tears.

Marked by resentment or cynicism: �He was already a bitter elderly man with a gray face� (John Dos Passos).

dece
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Joined: Dec 2003

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10/22, 10:26am | report spam | close Reply |
Bicycle

From http://www.folklore.org/

Jef did not want to incorporate what became the two most definitive aspects of Macintosh technology - the Motorola 68000 microprocessor and the mouse pointing device. Jef preferred the 6809, a cheaper but weaker processor which only had 16 bits of address space and would have been obsolete in just a year or two, since it couldn't address more than 64Kbytes. He was dead set against the mouse as well, preferring dedicated meta-keys called "leap keys" to do the pointing. He became increasingly alienated from the team, eventually leaving entirely in the summer of 1981, when we were still just getting started, and the final product utilitized very few of the ideas in the Book of Macintosh. In fact, if the name of the project had changed after Steve took over in January 1981, and it almost did (see Bicycle)�, there wouldn't be much reason to correlate it with his ideas at all.

Bartman
Junior Member

Joined: Oct 1999

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10/22, 10:32am | report spam | close Reply |
what the h***..

Mac OS X interface is no doubt better than any prev mac os PERIOD.

mgpalma
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10/22, 10:34am | report spam | close Reply |
blah, blah, blah, blah

sour grapes

"and there is only a little difference between using a Mac and a Windows machine..."

whatever, the Mac interface kicks...

I hate XP, but use both. Does he?

reiggin
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Joined: May 1999

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10/22, 10:47am | report spam | close Reply |
significance.

Jef Raskin: Still Searching for Significance.

scottnichol
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Joined: Oct 1999

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10/22, 11:10am | report spam | close Reply |
show us

gawd! we've heard this so many times from raskin. its so easy to be critical and i'd be respectful of his criticism if he'd just show us the light. mock something up, prototype it, or just re-write the interface to the computer using Darwin or Linux. once we all see how it could be done and how insanely great it is, i'm sure he'll have a hit product that he just can't make enough of...

just getting people to switch from their incredibly familiar windows to a better mac os system is incredibly difficult. good luck with your switcher campaign, jef!

bobolicious
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10/22, 11:13am | report spam | close Reply |
I must admit...

...a number of features have become more windows like - even the dock has overtones & I miss the drop down navigation from OS-9... XPs plug & play works beautifully for me... Discrete apps for contact management seems complex & data management is more complex... Accounting is still so far behind the PC - there is a way to go - backing into OS-9 is like viviting an old friend some days...

Doktorfaust
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10/22, 11:14am | report spam | close Reply |
Over and over again...

He's said this so many times over the years... he comes of sounding very arrogant and very bitter...

You'd think that if he's so good at designing interfaces he'd have designed something we all know and love after so many years.... but alas, nothing...

sagaces
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Joined: Dec 2003

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10/22, 11:15am | report spam | close Reply |
The Canon Cat

Jef Raskin had his chance to show his stuff with the Canon Cat. And where is the Cat today? How many Cats were sold? No further comment!

bernardb
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Joined: Feb 2004

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10/22, 11:19am | report spam | close Reply |
huh?

Just who is the MESS here? Raskin needs to get out more...

vickys-box
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Joined: Apr 2004

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10/22, 11:29am | report spam | close Reply |
Why does he bother?

Time and time again he keeps banging on about problems with the MacOS X interface.

I just use Macs to get my work done instead. Simple.

JeffHarris
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Joined: Oct 1999

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10/22, 11:37am | report spam | close Reply |
Re: Show Us

Exactly.
Put up or shut up.
Put your money where your mouth is.

I agree that computing is more complex. maybe too complex at times. When I think of what I could do on my first Mac 512K (with 2 400K floppy drives!) vs. what I can do with my PowerBook... it's astounding! Of COURSE it's going to be more complex! We can network and communicate anywhere in the world instantly... text, images, voice or video... with or WITHOUT wires! Digital photography. Photoshop. CDs were in their infancy when Macs first appeared, now we burn CDs and DVDs on them. 3D modeling and animation. Bluetooth, GPS, FireWire, USB, MicroDrives, iPods! The list goes on and on. AND I can do ALL of it on my 5 1/2lb. PowerBook! So of COURSE Macs are and will be more complex than perhaps we would like. It's just the way it is.

If Jef Raskin has some interface panacea or a miraculous way to simplify all of these miraculous capabilities, he needs to SHOW us the light, not just critique and complain about the Mac OS or speak of some mythical land of seamless and miraculous computing.

I think that Mac users would be happy and have been historically happy and entusiatic about loking at and trying different interface elements... IF they truly work and make running our Macs easier, faster, more intuitive, etc... they are eventually adopted.... by the many or by Apple itself.

Heck, I used a thing called MasterFinder back in the early 90's... gee it's Mac OS X column view now! I tried and really liked OpenDoc. Loved CyberDog! I tried some strange 3D browser plugin where you floated though space and dragged icons around... or was that a Finder replacement? there are all kinds of great shareware thingies that have become standard tools. Menu clocks, floating palettes, etc., etc., etc.,.

BTW: what's with the Jef with ONE 'F'?
I and all my other Jeff/Geoff buddies have always spelled it with 2 FFs.... isn't there a song about that? Is it a way to get some extra attention, perhaps? Show us the goods, Jef, and you'll get plenty!

dece
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10/22, 12:00pm | report spam | close Reply |
One F or Two?

He used to spell it "Jeff," but he changed it when he misunderstood Steve Jobs telling him to "get the F out."

Hemingray
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10/22, 12:20pm | report spam | close Reply |
Re: One F or Two!

LOL!!! Good one!

Warrenpeace
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10/22, 12:36pm | report spam | close Reply |
sour grapes

someone sounds bitter 'cause they're not involved anymore.

chas_m
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10/22, 12:38pm | report spam | close Reply |
Raskin grapes

There's a big difference between Jef Raskin's ideas and Steve Jobs' ideas.

Steve's ideas SELL.

Nuff said.

gsfprez
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Joined: Oct 1999

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10/22, 12:39pm | report spam | close Reply |
Every year, Jef?

From the guy that brought you the Canon Cat, the application n*** (You want more than 4 apps on yoru Mac? No Mac for YOU!) comes more whining about Apple.

1. His comments about the suckatude of the new iMac G5 calling it a "unfoldable box"

hey jeff, they call the foldable ones "laptops". Perhapse you've heard of them? There are cost constraints on designing computers, and there is a level of radicalness that the consumers are going to be willing to deal with. The first computer that ships with a rollup screen for their home computer will not sell well because it will scare people, dumbass

2. He complains that hypercard was not "invisible" enough and that computers in general are not invisible enough.

hey jeff, the Starship Enterprise Computer is a little thing we call SCIENCE FICTION.

While I agree in principle with the concept of working toward computers which operate much more in the background and allow average users to interact with them more naturally, he never say HOW to do this, while not losing any of the power or features that we use today. Nor does he suggest or prescribe methods - hardware or software - to meet his Starship Enterprise Computer goals.

More importantly, he fails to notice what Apple is doing to their OS - and how they are closer than any other company to being free of the desktop/folder/file concept. 10.4 could do away with much drilling and sorting, and the OS is simultaneously very close to and divorced from the actual file system and other user interfaces... anyone can write an app that could replace Finder.app tomorrow. You don't even NEED Finder.app. - unlike Windows, its no more or less important than Calculator.app, and is fairly easily seperatable from your data and programs. Spotlight is the first step toward the Enterprise computer... yes.. a small step, but a vital and important one.

In fact, i'm going to predict that many many people will not know how to deal with it. Many people will not use it, and if it weren't thanks to Google, it would be even more strange (which = scary = not used) to people.

3. "Some programs I wrote in Basic on an Apple II ran faster than when written in a modern language on a G4 Dual-processor Mac with hardware 1,000 times faster."

hey jef, "Some programs i use every single day couldn't ever be contemplated in your crummy basic language on your Apple ][".

I also call BS. You didn't name what kinds of programs. Are these recipie collection programs? Are these parsing programs? Are these multitrack DSP video and audio codecs? What kind of program could you have written on an Apple ][ that does not run faster on a DP G4? I swear, he sounds like John Kerry and his plan for Iraq.

Or is he saying he is so dense that he can't write programs in modern languages for some reason?

4.

gsfprez
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10/22, 12:40pm | report spam | close Reply |
continuing on....

4. "On the net, I search for sites when I need specific information. When my son wanted to know what camera to buy, I read camera review sites; to find a bush for our garden, I looked up gardening sites. I treasure the wide scope of the web."

Hey Jef, Apple is the only major computer vendor to make searching available right in the browser that ships with it. They are also going to be the first that will allow you to find any information stored on your computer in a similar fashion.

They were also the first to make the networking we all have something beyond the Web. No one has a drop dead zero-trouble video phone like Apple. No one has a drop dead zero config for printers, digital cameras, DV cams, music players like Apple. These interfaces are beyond the screen - and apparently beyond your concept of "computer".

When i plug a printer into a Mac - most often "it just works". When i plug it into my base station "it just works" wirelessly (thanks John and co). When i plug any brand digital camera into my mac, I see my pictures when i tell the computer "yes, please get the pictures off my camera" with a single click.

None of these things has been accomplished by any other vendor - and yet, in Kerry style, offers nothing but criticism, offers no solution, offers nothing but negativity and vague ivory-toweresque fake self-deprication "I know better than you, i should be a footnote in history" type drivel that i'm sure makes him think he's so much smarter than everyone around him.

gudin
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10/22, 12:50pm | report spam | close Reply |
Re: gsfprez

Uh oh.... PuhLEAZE don't bring politics into this. . .

Comment buried. Show

gene
Dedicated MacNNer

Joined: Apr 1999

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10/22, 12:50pm | report spam | close Reply |
That's the reason...

Raskin isn't working for Apple. Imagine the GUI if he was still around.... Scary....

Comment buried. Show

gudin
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10/22, 12:51pm | report spam | close Reply |
Re: gsfprez

* i won't go on for days about bush, i won't go on for days about bush, I WON'T GO ON FOR DAYS ABOUT THAT INCOMPETENT HYPOCRITICAL MORALLY BANKRUPT DIRTBAG IN THE WHITEHOUSE!!! Ooops. sorry.

Comment buried. Show

pliny
Mac Elite

Joined: Apr 2001

0

10/22, 01:30pm | report spam | close Reply |
System 1.0 or Bust

Well compared to machines that were in common use 15 years ago sure, they were much simpler. Partly because you couldn't do as much. Oh, how I pine for the good old System 1.0 days of 64k memory and black and white 9" screens and no networking or hard drive and if you had a PC, no GUI, and all for the low low price of $1799 if you really had to have a dot matrix printer.

Now that I think about it I am starting to get a serious longing for those 19th century log cabins with no running water, electricity, or cars, boy those were the days of utter simplicity and everything now is just in the TOILET.

Who is this guy again?

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gsfprez
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10/22, 01:56pm | report spam | close Reply |
gudin

your hate makes you ugly.

Comment buried. Show

porieux
Baninated

Joined: Mar 2001

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10/22, 02:00pm | report spam | close Reply |
Talk is cheap...

What has Raskin done lately?

Comment buried. Show

zimbardo
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10/22, 02:05pm | report spam | close Reply |
Mac NOW a Mess?

Maybe Jef doen't like operating systems. OSX is the first time the Mac has had a real operating system instead of an application (the Finder) that could launch programs. Back when Jef was around most all of the "so called" OS routines were in ROM. Applications were rarely compatible with each other and the only real feature was loosing your data and rebooting every hour.

And all those confusing desk accessories which were usually too trivial to be handy unless you splashed out money! Font limitations! Worse Truetype implementation than Windows! Font number limitations! Bad memory management! Cryptic debugger (almost of no use!)! Mac toolbox routines that never conformed to Inside Mac without a thousand caveats! (Remember List Manager! What a joke!) c*** Unicode support! Resource fork size limits! I could go on and on!!! And why the old programmers could never figure out (despite the billions Apple spent on OS development) how to implement MEMORY PROTECTED MULTITASKING and why it was not there to start is SAD!!!

If you have a real operating system with services that actually work, it will be more complex. But OSX is FAR from being the kind of junk the old OS used to be! NO NO NO!

NO LOOKING BACK AT THAT c***!!

Comment buried. Show

lurch99
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10/22, 02:08pm | report spam | close Reply |
Grumpy old man

Jef clearly is a case of sour apples. Everytime I've read his comments they are always negative and unhelpful. So he invented the mouse and a bunch of other things, cool. And he's not at the helm these days, so get over it. A quick look at his website reveals he's into some very esoteric and impractical projects, so maybe he ought to limit his comments to that realm instead of his past...

Comment buried. Show

gsfprez
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10/22, 02:11pm | report spam | close Reply |
Apple's responce to Jef

And they say big companies don't have a sense of humor any more...

http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=86816

Take that, Jef, you grumpy old has-been.

Comment buried. Show

testudo
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10/22, 02:16pm | report spam | close Reply |
Re: System 1.0 or bust

Well compared to machines that were in common use 15 years ago sure, they were much simpler. Partly because you couldn't do as much. Oh, how I pine for the good old System 1.0 days of 64k memory and black and white 9" screens and no networking or hard drive and if you had a PC, no GUI, and all for the low low price of $1799 if you really had to have a dot matrix printer.

The earliest machines had at least 128K in them. Maybe you're thinking of the Commodore 64. The initial mac cost $2400 or so, and an imagewriter added another $1000 (I think, maybe it was $600). All so you can use MFS, a file system that pretended to have directories (but no two files on a disk could have the same name).

Considering that the original finder was written with the thought of Floppies as being what was being traversed, I think it actually should push Apple and others to come up with a wholly new interface for finding/grouping/managing files. Not that anyone will like it, since we all have it ingrained how a file system should work, and how we want to work with it, heaven forbid someone try to do things differently (h***, remember the mess of complaints from people when iTunes dared re-order their music directories).

Comment buried. Show

jpellino
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10/22, 04:17pm | report spam | close Reply |
*SIGH*

Jef is turning into Tog without the implementation.

10 GOTO 10
20 REM Blindingly fast.
30 REM Completely useless.
40 REM The speed comparison is a red herring.
50 END

Comment buried. Show

freakboy2
Dedicated MacNNer

Joined: Oct 2002

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10/22, 04:23pm | report spam | close Reply |
yeah like whatever

Seriously, total BS coming from where?

frankly, sometimes i wish i had a typewriter instead of my powerbook.. but then i watch a movie on it, surf the web, do a video conference, listen to music and send an email.

boy those old apple 2's sure kicked it didn't they?

Comment buried. Show

geekstud
Junior Member

Joined: Feb 2001

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10/22, 04:30pm | report spam | close Reply |
He may have a point

(no, not the one on his head - be nice, people)

If you compare the current iPod's interface elegance - the simplest physical interaction, and a simple, limited software GUI - with an iMac running Mac OS X with all of its eye candy and complexity, you may rethink his point. I'm an old NeXTstep guy, so I like a good deal of the Mac OS X GUI's functionality, but I have to admit it is a very busy looking (and graphics processor intensive) interface. It might be interesting to have a "simple GUI" mode(s) for young kids, older non-techie folks, etc.

He is also correct in noting that one can't always reconcile the code bloating with advances in software engineering and hardware. Let's face it, there are few small, fast, elegant applications anymore - something that used to be a point of pride for the very best programmers. I also note the disturbingly high level of bugs that exist in "production releases" of commercial applications.

All the cool advances of object programming, frameworks, and fast hardware can be negated by poor software engineering - and I think that's his point as well.

Comment buried. Show

freakboy2
Dedicated MacNNer

Joined: Oct 2002

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10/22, 08:41pm | report spam | close Reply |
yeah sure

but to imply that the mac is near par with the windows world in terms of bloat and nastiness is just wrong.

also if you want a clean empty interface on mac, it's cake to do that (as it is on windows) just make a user, give him no access, turn off everything and put a humungous safari icon on the doc. how much more simple do you want it?

Comment buried. Show

hayesk
Professional Poster

Joined: Sep 1999

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10/22, 09:12pm | report spam | close Reply |
Re: He may have a point

No, he doesn't. Look at the iPod. How many things can an iPod do? It can play music, display text - that's about it.

What can a modern Mac do? Thousands and thousands of tasks. Much more than the original Mac. He is bitter and doesn't understand that computers have to be able to do so much more than they did 20 years ago. Although he is free to invent an interface that is simple yet can handle so many things. Put up or shut up.

Comment buried. Show

jmonty12
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10/22, 09:41pm | report spam | close Reply |
Windows Plug & Play Rocks

Yes, I too like Windows Plug & Play.

That is, I like the promise it has (but doesn't deliver.) How many times I have I had new hardware to install but the installation instructions said I MUST install the software before plugging in the hardware? Isn't that the opposite of Plug & Play? Then there are those that say you have to plug in the hardware first, but then hit "Cancel" when the P&P comes up and then install the software. Otherwise you're screwed. And we must not forget the times P&P can't find the necessary drivers and, then you're screwed again.

Yep, Plug & Play Rules!

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Gabriel Morales

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10/22, 10:41pm | report spam | close Reply | delete
Raskin does have a point

I think Raskin is a little out of touch with the market reality of today. His view of things are often radical, and would alienate many customers, which would not serve the company or customer in the end.

However, he DOES make several good points, and he DOES have his own ideas for improving the GUI. One of these is his "Zooming Interface" which I think makes a lot of good sense. He also suggests getting rid of file names, making the entire file/document searchable (the document is the file name, and visa-versa). Zooming out the document would look much like an icon, zooming in the text would start to become legible (like a bird's eye view, similar to the effect of changing view size in iPhoto.) Again, perhaps this is a little extreme to some, but we could implement file names as well, to calm accustomed users. Check out a copy of his book "The Humane Interface", and you'll see what I mean. He has many good ideas.

His criticism of Mac OS X is not unwarranted either. The Mac is still the easiest to use (and raising the bar) and has gained advantage (the power of UNIX, compatibility with Linux, etc.), but decisions like going back (pre-Mac) to file name extensions, are disappointing and cost us some of the clean design philosophy of old. Remember the "C:ONGRTLNS.W95" Ad? Where are we now? There's an excellent article on Ars by John Siracusa about how to solve this in a more user friendly way, BTW.

So, yes this man does seem to be overly critical of the Mac, but he does have good ideas on the matter of interfaces and has valid points.

Comment buried. Show

eddd
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10/23, 01:33am | report spam | close Reply |
Re: Raskin does have a...

Okay, put the crack pipe down and back slowly away...

Raskin has "ideas." Raskin has "creative ideas." However, I would argue that Raskin doesn't have "good ideas." To my way of thinking, a good idea is one that actually improves something.

Let's take that zooming interface idea, for example. Wow! Gee Whiz! Zowee! But wait - you mean I need to zoom into evey icon to tell what document I'm looking at? No thankee.

The same goes for that 3D interface idea that never sold - it was simply too cumbersome. Likewise for voice navigation - simply not realistic, simply too slow and finicky.

Good ideas recognize human nature and the most direct path. Raskin is a dreamer and not much more. Let's see his portfolio of innovation that is actually in use by humans. Hmmm.... pretty dusty, that.

Comment buried. Show

LouZer
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10/24, 12:34pm | report spam | close Reply |
Re: Raskin has a point

His criticism of Mac OS X is not unwarranted either. The Mac is still the easiest to use (and raising the bar) and has gained advantage (the power of UNIX, compatibility with Linux, etc.), but decisions like going back (pre-Mac) to file name extensions, are disappointing and cost us some of the clean design philosophy of old.

I have to disagree here. Apple and mac users touted file types and creators for 15+ years. Sure, it's better than extensions. It's cleaner. There's just one problem. Besides Apple, NO ONE EVER USED IT! Its hard to interoperate between platforms (like good computer systems should) if no one else follows your scheme. If you needed to send files to someone using a PC (h***, or even Unix), you needed to add extensions to the file, or tell them to add the extensions. But if someone just got a file that said "2004 schedule", they'd have no idea, nor would their computer, about what it was or how to open it. You may not like it, but file extensions won the battle. Its what the majority of systems use, and if you want interoperability, its better to have them then have something that the user would have to worry about ("what extension do I need to name my PShop files with?"). Sure, Apple could fit in some kind of linking system, mapping types to extensions and vice versa, but, then again, the user would have to set up his own mappings if they weren't provided. And who determines whether a file should have an extension or not.

You all complain about Apple coming out with non-standard hardware (like ADC monitors, ADB keyboards and peripherals, NuBus cards, etc) because its just that, not standard. Metadata was never a standard. No one but mac owners could handle it.

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Mac creator: "the Mac is now a mess"

updated 10:10 am EDT, Fri October 22, 2004

\"The Mac is now a mess\"

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He didn't create the Mac

Dictionary.com

Bicycle

what the h***..

blah, blah, blah, blah

significance.

show us

I must admit...

Over and over again...

The Canon Cat

huh?

Why does he bother?

Re: Show Us

One F or Two?

Re: One F or Two!

sour grapes

Raskin grapes

Every year, Jef?

continuing on....

Re: gsfprez

That's the reason...

Re: gsfprez

System 1.0 or Bust

gudin

Talk is cheap...

Mac NOW a Mess?

Grumpy old man

Apple's responce to Jef

Re: System 1.0 or bust

*SIGH*

yeah like whatever

He may have a point

yeah sure

Re: He may have a point

Windows Plug & Play Rocks

Raskin does have a point

Re: Raskin does have a...

Re: Raskin has a point

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