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Ex-Apple design guru: Apple should exit PC market

updated 08:35 am EDT, Fri July 23, 2004

Apple: exit PC market?

Ex-Apple design guru says that " showcased in Mac OS X Tiger at Apple's WWDC.

by MacNN Staff

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Mac Elite

Joined: Oct 1999

0

07/23, 08:51am | report spam | close Reply |
What!

You want to take my Mac away. GO TO h***.

rok
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Mar 1999

0

07/23, 08:53am | report spam | close Reply |
ex-apple employees

why do they always seem to think they can run apple better than apple can? i seem to recall many of these folks being on board long after they jettisoned steve and sculley was manning the ship straight into the crapper.

of course, he's designing the interface for longhorn, so he's getting paid 94,512,000 times more than me, so shows what i know.

minimansion
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Aug 2001

0

07/23, 08:55am | report spam | close Reply |
If Apple quits...

...then "they" will have nobody else to COPY from.........

non-creative b******* that "they" are....

dave a
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Jan 2002

0

07/23, 08:56am | report spam | close Reply |
Microsoft shill

Oddly enough, the things he sees as the future are EXACTLY the things Microsoft is doing. The Mac user interface did not become obsolete with the Plus...as he implies... though OS X did take a number of steps backward as well as moving forward, all right.

If everyone wants to be using a single brand, why is Linux moving forward? Why does compatibility imply using a single brand?

He's right in his analysis of early Apple culture, though, and some of the ways Apple screwed up, though blaming everything on Apple and nothing on Microsoft, despite highly questionable and illegal business practices by Microsoft, seems also to be rather self-serving.

This article was nowhere near objective...the writer did not question anything coming out of the guy's mouth.

I do have to wonder, though, as a Mac user, when Apple's going to start noticing the popularity of such things as X-Assist and FruitMenu.

koolkid1976
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: May 2003

0

07/23, 09:16am | report spam | close Reply |
compatible

Hey says: Infrastructure is about sharing. This means two or more incompatible ways of doing things is counterproductive.

My response to that is:
Then why doesn't Microsoft adopt open standards instead of re-designing what already exists, into it's own propriarity standards? Isn't that counterproductive?

hybrid
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Apr 2004

0

07/23, 09:16am | report spam | close Reply |
Compatibility...

... is a red herring.

Files and applications can be compatible, independent of their host operating systems. Open standards, people!

dave a
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Jan 2002

0

07/23, 09:21am | report spam | close Reply |
Good points -

posts 5 and 6. Yes, open standards are what people REALLY want, not identical operating systems all owned by one company. I think the main reaction agasint M$ is a combination of not wanting to place all eggs into one corporate basket, and also wanting truly open standards so innovation by individuals can exist. Likewise, most people I work wtih have no idea I own a Mac becasue Office files are compatible ... as are PDFs.

pliny
Mac Elite

Joined: Apr 2001

0

07/23, 09:21am | report spam | close Reply |
yeah sure

every other computer writer does an apple story every other day and to get press they are chicken little stories. then there is this one, where you have an MS employee saying apple should stop making computers. ok great story there. why this junk keeps coming out is beyond me.

bobolicious
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Joined: Aug 2002

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07/23, 09:36am | report spam | close Reply |
He works for MS...

...of course he is going to say something along those lines...

X has been very painfull - my personal 'black hole' is now accounting software - pc options are far better - even a graphics company needs to send out invoices & could benefit from banking download data...

MS does have one thing right - they are waiting to release their next OS until it is finished & working - unlike the trauma that X has been up until 10.3... I still have a Gen X HP printer that doesn't always 'work'...

Still LOTS of room for improvement in basics in X such as a mail app that has features & data porting at least equal to OE, system software backup & restore, a browser that works on all sites/apps (Quicken 2005 Home & Business?) & has security/history options of Mozilla, better TCP/IP networking options, yada, yada, yada...

DudeMac
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Joined: Sep 2002

0

07/23, 09:55am | report spam | close Reply |
Compatibility...

The key to compatibility is not an overall adoption of a single operating system, but an overall adoption of open standards in every computing category possible; from file formats to communication protocols, etc...

Trying to force the whole world to use Windows would be a BIG MISTAKE!!!

Nitride
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Sep 2001

0

07/23, 10:03am | report spam | close Reply |
Time Travel?

I think this guy stepped out of a time machine from 10 years ago, that remark sounds awfully familiar.

Loser, go back to MS and copy the Mac some more now that 10.4 has been publicly viewed.

Sydney Tsai
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Feb 2002

0

07/23, 10:12am | report spam | close Reply |
For Good Karma

They should tell Microsoft to stop making software...
This will save a lot of lives.

VadersCape
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Mar 2004

0

07/23, 10:13am | report spam | close Reply |
Stay On Task!

- Drink the kool aid.
- Eat the cash.

jscotta
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Joined: Jun 2002

0

07/23, 10:14am | report spam | close Reply |
To Bobolicious on Safari

There are some sites that Safari is not compatible with that has nothing to do with Safari and everything to do with the site being written specifically for Internet Explorer. The ones you mention are a couple as well as some genealogy sites that my mother visits often. So, this is a case where you need to approach the site developers and ask them to be compatible.

Sydney Tsai
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Joined: Feb 2002

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07/23, 10:15am | report spam | close Reply |
Ironic

>>You didn't have to remember anything, because you could see everything. Now making everything visible doesn't work. The space gets too crowded.

True, bloated task bar, and a app on desktop, menu and quicklanuch... It's stupid.

testudo
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Aug 2001

0

07/23, 10:33am | report spam | close Reply |
Stuff

I do have to wonder, though, as a Mac user, when Apple's going to start noticing the popularity of such things as X-Assist and FruitMenu.

Oh sure, Apple adds these features to 10.4 and everyone gets on their case for stealing other people's ideas (like Watson and Launchbar and Konfabulator).

MS does have one thing right - they are waiting to release their next OS until it is finished & working - unlike the trauma that X has been up until 10.3... I still have a Gen X HP printer that doesn't always 'work'...

First, they wait until the stuff they want to work works. Stuff they don't care about (esp. competitor products) can break for all they care.

Second, Apple HAD to get OS X.0 out the door. There'd been too many missed steps, missed oppurtunities, etc, in the past. If they waited until it was 'done', people would be calling it Copland 2 and just leaving en masse. Was it out early? Yes. But it was also over a year late (based on their original schedule), if not two. The subsequent releases were then needed to get it up to snuff, so to speak. Because no one was going to live with X.0 for two years.

Third, MS can get by delaying because people are used to it. But if Apple waited two+ years for an update, you'd all be screaming about long delays and no new product and being passed by, etc.

Finally, on the printer front, MS has a huge advantage here because manufacturers are the ones making the drivers, not MS. And the manufacturers are going to spend the money on windows drivers because they have to. But whether they make drivers for other platforms is their perogative. Apple can't for HP to make a driver for the Mac, they can only urge (or bribe). Luckily underneath OS X is Darwin running CUPS, which uses open drivers for many, many printers. Unfortunately these seldom support all the features of the printers (usually just the ones the developer needed to work with it).

As for me, I don't have any printer problems. I don't print. Its so much easier that way.

bobolicious
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Aug 2002

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07/23, 10:44am | report spam | close Reply |
Re: I don't print...

hahaha well that may work 4 u! hardly reflects reality for the 'rest' of us :)

Yes I tried gimp print - I certainly wouldn't describe it as 'easy or intuitive' - it was basically a nightmare - although it did actually facilitate output - I like to use the 'mother' test - Apple will have done their job when someone who isn't a techie can sit down & figure out a computer in less than 10 weeks & without getting completely exasperated...

That being said XP has a pretty good help/intro system - some thngs still don't make sense - like why a CD doesn't pop up on the desktop - but all-in-all I think Apple could actually 'learn' from MS as I feel they have them beat in very basic but important ways...

Why oh why if we install an upgrade that screws up our computer do we not have a 'system restore' feature - this was missing from the beta through ...? When I contemplate bad OS design like that I say OK maybe this guy's position has some merit...

testudo
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Aug 2001

0

07/23, 10:45am | report spam | close Reply |
Channeling

I think maybe he's channeling Mike "sell the assets and give the money to the stockholders" Dell.

macimmortal
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Aug 2001

0

07/23, 10:46am | report spam | close Reply |
What's really funny...

Is this guys suggestions are exactly the same suggestions that Bill Gates made to Steve Jobs when he wanted Apple to get out of the internet content delivery business. He told Apple that he would (brace yourself) "let them have the multimedia creation business if they would get out of internet content delivery). This was brought up as part of the anti-trust trial. I'm glad Steve told him to shove it up his ***.

Glasspusher
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Oct 2000

0

07/23, 10:48am | report spam | close Reply |
the kool aid must be good

Man, the kool aid in Redmond must be good- Apple leave the PC market? That would be a sad day indeed! I suppose someone else would pick up the innovation torch, but remove Apple from the fray right now and M$ would be saying uh, uh. I'm glad to see Linux come in as a new player, but it's obvious that most of the Linux folks have copied the GUI and feel of Windoze for their OS. More of them should use a Mac, they'd have a higher bar to shoot for. M$ has proven time and time again that they can't innovate their way out of a wet paper bag. The hardware makers are all box makers. I wonder what Alan Kay is working on now that he's at HP. They make great imaging products, that's for sure, but they buy their OS from M$ and their chipsets from Intel. Boy, that's rough. PC folks have been waiting for WinFS since when, 1998 with Cairo? M$ is too bent on schedules and not pissing off their sheep customers to really think outside the box. Sure, Apple pushes the bleeding edge a little hard at times, but I'll prefer the company that's at least trying. Since Steve came back, much to my surprise and satisfaction, Apple's had a pretty good central plan for moving forward and has largely made good on their promises. I'm loving it.

lemuel777
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Jul 2004

0

07/23, 10:59am | report spam | close Reply |
Read between the lines

Compatibility, one operating system means... Longhorn will run on Apple hardware!!! Finally, one way of doing things, Microsoft's way. He is saying that Apple should be writing software for Longhorn. FinalCut Pro, DVD Studio Pro, iMovie, make it all Longhorn compatible, because Longhorn on the Mac is around the corner.

z10n
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Oct 2003

0

07/23, 11:13am | report spam | close Reply |
Brand

Brand has nothing to do with intercompatablity. Intercompatablity is about adopting known standards, and that's it. If the world isn't interoperable with windows, that's because windows has used propretary technlogies. It's standards bodies that set the standard, not any one company's market dominance.

About the apple is arrogent comment. Unfortunately, that's the way it's always been. Apple doesn't seem to understand that design and practicality go hand in hand. Different is the enemy of excellent. Apple needs to promote excellent designs, not just creative or fashionable ones.

About the "computer for the rest of us" comment. At the time the mac was made, there was a DESPERATE need for a "computer for the rest of us". That statement was not a consumer vs business statement, it was a techie vs non-techie statement. Computers were flat out hard to use. The mac changed the design so computers were now easy to use. Which is why microsoft immedately started writing business applications for the mac- now people in business no longer needed advanced degrees to just figure out how to use a computer.

The world has changed. Now, pretty much all modern operating systems are easy to use. So the mac is less important then it was when it first came out. Apple realized that the mac needed to evolve, which is why they designed a brand new operating system, OS X. The current problem with the file/folder paradigm is mainly one of users getting used to a certain method and refusing to give it up. But that will change as people start to see the benifits of the database/search model. Launchbar woke me up to the fact that such a system can be made intuitive enough that people will switch. And it really is about time. Even microsoft is aware of how important this model is, because Longhorn is going to have a brand new file system,. just to support it.

mbryda
Senior User

Joined: Mar 2002

0

07/23, 11:27am | report spam | close Reply |
Accounting software

MYOB works for me. Ironically, I fix PC's and do my abbounting/billing/etc. on a Mac..

ecrelin
Junior Member

Joined: Oct 2000

0

07/23, 11:56am | report spam | close Reply |
full of @#@$%%

first he ingores the obvious that corporations with mainframes with maintenence contracts with IBM, VAX, even Wang and the like were not going to buy computers from two hippies in a garage which is how Jobs and Woz were viewed at the time. Microsoft never made dollar one due to the superiority of their system and its ridiculous incompatibility. The onus has always been on Apple to be compatible and I have griped up and down about thier inability to be a full featured Windows domain client but the fault of that is truly on M$ and their insolationist and captive market strategy. To his history and experience I would like to know who determined that he was a "guru". The original mac was a design triumph for the times, the rest of the time they pushed out mostly square beige boxes that won engineering awards for case, motherboard and manufacturing design certainly not the outside. Most important, if this guy is in anyway responsible for the disney channel-like primary color look and feel of any of the screen shots I've seen of what Longshot is supposed to look like all his taste is in his mouth.
remind me again was he a marketing guru, a technology guru or a design guru, pick a discipline pal, we'll see where market shares have gone by the time his design triumph ships� He may want ot keep an eye on Monster.com or the like now that Bill and the boys are cashing out his development buffer, the handwriting is on the wall, hee hee hee

aristotles
Grizzled Veteran

Joined: Jul 2004

0

07/23, 11:57am | report spam | close Reply |
Pcs not home computers

The windows PC is not the "computer for the rest if us". It is a cash cow for technical support departments because it's so buggy, insecure and hard to use.

I like coming home to macs. I don't want to feel like I'm still at work in IT when I come home.

Hal Itosis
Grizzled Veteran

Joined: Mar 2004

0

07/23, 12:10pm | report spam | close Reply |
Going DOWN!

Like the mighty dinosaurs, Microsoft has nowhere to go but down...
and they know it.

Ciao baby.

Bobby
Mac Enthusiast

Joined: Apr 2001

0

07/23, 12:12pm | report spam | close Reply |
Duuuu?

A guy who now works for HP telling Apple to get out of the computer business... Riiiiight...

Mooseyard
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Jan 2001

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07/23, 12:27pm | report spam | close Reply |
He was NOT a "guru"

The article badly misstates Mr. Norman's influence at Apple. He was not there in the "early years" -- his resume states that he worked there from 1993 to 1997. He was not the "design guru" -- he was an "Apple Fellow", a largely meaningless trophy position for impressive names like Alan Kay who weren't expected to contribute anything concrete to the company. He then headed the Advanced Technology Group, a research lab that infamously managed to contribute almost nothing to Apple's actual product line.

He was a trophy at Apple, pure and simple, a well-known name that they could flaunt in the desperate years from 1993-1997. He wasn't a central figure by any means. I respect Mr. Norman's work, but he's in no position to speak as an authority on Apple's business.

David Robinson
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Joined: Jul 2004

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07/23, 12:28pm | report spam | close Reply |
Another way to look at it

Let's ignore Mr Norman's position with Microsoft, which can reasonably be said to bring his objectivity into question. Let's also ignore the impression that there may be some historical discomfort in his relationship with Apple. Let's just examine the question of Apple's viability as a manufacturer of personal computers.

Before Apple decides to leave the PC business, it has the option to develop OS X for Intel and go into the production of very elegant high value hardware for that market. It can offer people hardware which will allow them the choice of OS X or Windows on hardware which makes them secure in the knowledge that they aren't restricted to a niche.

I'm *not* suggesting that OS X on Intel is inevitable. There is obvious value in the current IBM processor solution. I am, though, suggesting that part of the current "monopoly" is the hardware and that Windows would be seriously threatened by the availability of alternative and high quality operating systems running on that platform.

Does *anyone* seriously think that Apple couldn't be a significant player in the Intel-based computer market? Look at the people using Intel who covet Apple computers for their industrial design.

Mr Norman is clearly wrong about the need for a monololy solution. All the indications are that we are moving into a context of open standards and greater choice. Further, all the indications are that the monopoly solution produces mediocrity as well as vulnerability to security issues.

He is also wrong about Apple's future as a manufacturer of personal computers. Apple has options and its obvious credibility in the space occupied by iPod and iTunes will support those options as personal computing changes.

Mr Norman doesn't seem to understand that the ground is moving under the computer industry. Or perhaps he does and he's just resisting it.

klinux
Senior User

Joined: Jul 2002

0

07/23, 12:51pm | report spam | close Reply |
Koolaid?

Koolaid at Redmond? Come on, everybody knows Cupertino has the best Koolaid. If Steve blesses it, I bet half of Macnn would drink it. I love how everything degenerates into Apple vs Microsoft around here.

I also can't wait until Ives leave so people can starting critcizing him.

wrycooter
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Mar 2002

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07/23, 01:13pm | report spam | close Reply |
I read this five days ago

Why repeat this nonsense again?

He is obviously shilling for a living these days.

Ever wonder what Microsoft is doing, staying out of Browser Space and Web Space until Longhorn is ready? Strangely quiet huh? They are cutting backroom deals with HDTV manufacturers to be the default convergence OS provider. MS will apparently visibly ignore a market waiting for others to build it up before they move in. Don't get complacent, and don't listen to FUD from hasbeens.

Feeling_Macish
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Mar 2004

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07/23, 01:23pm | report spam | close Reply |
"creativity"

"over-emphasis on creativity"

"Creativity" is what helped our FBI and CIA operatives foil Al Queda's attempt to hijack airplanes and crash them into the World Trade Center on 9/11/01.

Ah, yes, creativity.

Bureaucrats & Windows - they go together like peanut butter and jelly.

I could go on...

Wal-Mart and SUV-driving fat asses...
Donald Trump and gold plated , low profile rims...
500 channels and kids who never read...

ok, enough for now.

Feeling_Macish
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Mar 2004

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07/23, 01:37pm | report spam | close Reply |
re: Koolaid?

I also can't wait until Ives leave so people can starting critcizing him.

What has Burl Ives got to do with any of this? Is he singing at Apple now?

Mooseyard
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Jan 2001

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07/23, 02:12pm | report spam | close Reply |
re: Burl

Burl Ives has been an Apple Fellow for a couple of years now; I think he took over after Sinbad.

nat
Junior Member

Joined: Mar 2002

0

07/23, 02:34pm | report spam | close Reply |
Resistance

is futile. Whatever this guy may have been before he's just another clone spouting the company line; ONLY MICROSOFT GOOD.
Snap out of it dude! Break away! Grow some cojones! Get some Enzyte!

awcopus
Mac Elite

Joined: Nov 2001

0

07/23, 11:06pm | report spam | close Reply |
Home User h***

My father in law, every single time I see him, is griping about problems with XP... bugginess that I simply can't believe until I see it. CD burning that is utterly counterintuitive, difficulty scanning images, and problems caused by the multiple antivirus packages he's running.

When I recommend the Mac as a viable alternative, he scoffs as if I'm out of my mind. Even though 99% of his computer use is web surfing and writing in Word, and he wastes hours of his life trying to get help making his setup work smoothly, this is all he has ever known. He *cannot imagine* that his experience with an Apple would be superior because he's heard it all before, from one PC manufacturer or another, and he's jaded.

I think most people simply don't know any better than what their workplace has shoved down their throats their whole professional lives. In this sense, the Wintel marketshare dominance is fundamentally weak, in my opinion.

Apple's current iPod/iTunes phenomenon is an astonishing breakthrough. They have executed on the digital lifestyle experience in a way that is in step with mega trends in the sales of portable music players and digital cameras and dvcams. I am not worried about Apple's future as a viable desktop alternative. There is always a market for quality and Apple's "different" has been quite excellent, comparatively speaking.

Personally, I am in business for myself as a video producer and make my living using FCP and DVDSP and Adobe CS. I buy a new Mac about once every 18 months. It's not about brand loyalty for me, it's about the bottomline user experience.

just a poster
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Jun 2004

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07/24, 05:30am | report spam | close Reply |
What an a******

There is no industry as important that is dominated by a singled, criminally-inclined vendor as is the software industry.

What a clueless f***.

Microsoft is a convicted monopolist felon; there is no "openness" of communication by going with a single closed-source vendor that muscles middleware parties out of the industry using bundling when it feels its monopoly is threatened.

What a sellout.

Shilling for his convicted employer. If a single standard is required in the information age, it must be built openly and transparently; open source software. Not locked away behind closed doors by a single, shady corporate entity free to add backdoors and play big brother.

What a jerkoff.

If he think Windows should be a standard, let it be. Gas is standardized even though there are multiple corporate entities, suppliers and refiners charged with extracting, transporting, and even engineering for it (ie jet engines).

Microsoft's big problem is its culture. Even if it were to split into 5 or 10 different companies, how soon before each would modify Windows or Office products to differentiate from the others.

normr
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Mar 2002

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07/24, 11:26am | report spam | close Reply |
EX design guru

What did this guy design, The Performa's?

Super Glitcher
Dedicated MacNNer

Joined: Aug 2003

0

07/25, 03:52am | report spam | close Reply |
design?

Design 'guru' who says they are 'too' creative??? Now he works for Microsoft??? Something is terribly wrong with this guy. Someone should shoot his high school guidance counselor for s******* up his life - obviously not a designer at heart - maybe addicted to chaos??

Apple > Microsoft > next stop is a government job

John Dwight
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Jul 1999

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07/25, 07:17am | report spam | close Reply |
Apple, stay the course!

"Third, MS can get by delaying because people are used to it. But if Apple waited two+ years for an update, you'd all be screaming ..."

Not only are folks used to MS delays, it sounds like many org.s are HAPPY to wait to pay for another upgrade. It's not a trivial amount of money if you're locked into MS' steep user license scam, er, scheme. Longhorn had better do my laundry as well, for what it's going to cost.

After using XP and Win2k, if Apple folded I'd retrain in another career rather than use MS day in, day out.

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