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http://www.macnn.com/articles/04/05/03/schools.standardize.on.pcs/

Arlington, VA public schools move away from Macs

updated 07:35 am EDT, Mon May 3, 2004

Schools standardize on PCs

A memo from the Office of the Superintendent of the Arlington Public Schools says that the company will , while "Macintosh computers will be retained for specialized applications such as the Arts curriculum, the iLife suite including iMovie and Special Education. I found persuasive the conclusions that in the absence of any particular advantage or disadvantage to instructional effectiveness or to teaching staff, the move to one predominant platform will result in lower costs (both in direct outlays and in opportunity costs to enhanced services) and to more effective and efficient technical support services."

by MacNN Staff

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JeffHarris
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Joined: Oct 1999

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05/03, 08:01am | report spam | close Reply |
I.T. Shills for Dell?

Ah yes, the same old saw and ignorance of the lower costs for a unified platform. We KNOW it's the IT drones pushing for job security and the ignorant (or paid off) and clueless administration falling for the con job.

In these days of falling education budgets, it makes SO much sense to steathfully triple your IT budget.

The question remains: Where is Apple through all this?

Nostromo
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Joined: Oct 2001

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05/03, 08:29am | report spam | close Reply |
Where?

"The question remains: Where is Apple through all this?"

Where is Apple? They're off making a new set of dancing iPod user commercials to tell everyone how they're "providing music fans with the best digital experience on Mac or PC."

Market share? Who cares about market share? Look, we have DANCING IPOD USERS!

swiz
GUI Punk

Joined: Jan 2002

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05/03, 08:35am | report spam | close Reply |
technical support

...and boy are they ever gonna need that!

LouZer
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05/03, 08:46am | report spam | close Reply |
Re: Where?

What do you people think, that if Apple had a couple of customer reps talking to these people, somehow their minds would be swayed and switch to all Macs or something. h***, they're lucky they got to keep any macs. Most schools decide to just toss all of them. (Oh, and don't be surprised if the tech support staff derides the macs everytime they have to deal with them).

And when apple gets surpassed in the music market, you'll be whining that they spent too much time ignoring the iPod and such, and now they've become also-rans. You make it seem like these people can't do more than one thing at a time.

mbryda
Senior User

Joined: Mar 2002

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05/03, 08:49am | report spam | close Reply |
If you must

ANYONE BUT DELL. Their computers are garbage, plain and simple. You will be sorry with the level of un-support you get from them. Run away from then and into any other PC vendor if you must switch.

And, that report was full of so many inaccuracies and half-truths that it's not funny.

Oh Well, one more "cost savings through unified platform" BS - once they get hit with one virus/worm, the cleanup cost will erase any cost savings.

Dame Scribble
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Joined: Mar 2004

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05/03, 08:49am | report spam | close Reply |
It's a lame excuse/reaso

Period.
d.

nat
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Joined: Mar 2002

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05/03, 09:07am | report spam | close Reply |
good luck

i used to work at a think tank. the big "it" guy had ms so far up his hiney his eyes were windows logo's. he convinced everybody to dump the sun's and switch everything to windows. within a year the really smart guys were saying "told you so!". unfortunately the powers that be are dumbass's and the sink hole keeps getting bigger. when you got dumbass's that listen to dumbass's who want nothing but to keep their jobs, you get dell'd.

dthree
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Joined: Apr 1999

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05/03, 09:16am | report spam | close Reply |
yep

typical. Worst part is, except for thier "approved" departments for Mac, they will force every teacher to switch, even if a teacher doesn't want to switch AND doesn't need tech support. Stupid.

83caddy16v
Forum Regular

Joined: Sep 2000

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05/03, 09:17am | report spam | close Reply |
More news like this...

needs to be heard by managment and decision makers

http://www.macnn.com/news/23026

But the hill may be just took hard to climb with so many Dell/MSFT developers and environments in business and government locations. It may or may not be Apple's intention to seriously move into these markets but for now I'm happy with my OSX box and Apple's digital video software. Perhaps if Apple commands the entertainment industry some years down the line, perhaps they will start to overflow into the business community and eventually see their marketshare tick up.

Feeling_Macish
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05/03, 09:18am | report spam | close Reply |
2 words

"bought" "off"

trevc
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Joined: Mar 2000

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05/03, 09:34am | report spam | close Reply |
Reality

This is a reality that Apple in some way concedes (Less education reps, etc.).

Our Public school unit has far less macs than PC's now but the support ratio for support is still lower for the macs ... the issue is finding someone who KNOWS macs!!

The majority of programs they use in my kids Kindergarten to Grade 6 class are Internet Browser or your basic Kid Pix, etc. If I was making the decision, I'd buy Windoze machines as well. $500 for a system that does this pretty well, and $1000 for the low-end eMac (Canadian Prices) makes them approximately twice as expensive to buy. They even save a bit more for the PC's as they are reusing some of the extra monitors they have.

Now if Apple came out with a headless eMac?

What about iBook's??? It's hard to promote a G3 chip knowing that everything from the OS to iLife has been optimized for the G4 and G5... also this grade level is geared for desktops as I wouldn't trust my kids running around dropping iBooks everywhere.

Reality.

chabig
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Joined: Jun 1999

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05/03, 09:35am | report spam | close Reply |
Lies from the report...

"Internet Explorer, which is widely used in Arlington Public Schools, is no longer available for OS X. OS X does have its own browser, Safari, however questions remain concerning the long-term impact of the loss of Internet Explorer"

"Qualified and affordable Mac technical staff have become increasingly more difficult to recruit and hire which may be due in part to Macs relatively small, 5% computer market share, compared with PCs that enjoy a better than 90% market share"

"PC hardware is generally non-proprietary and is compatible between manufacturers while Apple hardware is predominately proprietary and generally not compatible with products with other computer manufacturers"

"PC parts are generally less expensive than Mac parts due to their nonproprietary nature"

"Because of the widespread use of PCs�at home, in the business world, in higher education�a PC platform would better equip students for the computer environment they are likely to encounter everywhere outside of school. It would prepare them to use the technology they will find in the workplace. "

rok
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05/03, 09:40am | report spam | close Reply |
re: reality

um, you do know the ibooks have g4's in them now, right?

reality, indeed.

horvatic
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05/03, 10:02am | report spam | close Reply |
Wrong move, higher costs!

To bad they moved to the wrong platform to save money with. They will pay twice as much in support costs and Microsoft licensing fees then if they went with the Mac. Someone I agree was bought off.

aer
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05/03, 10:11am | report spam | close Reply |
Unfortunately

If you look at the section of the PDF the supt. published- look at the costs Apple is charging for imaging of each machine- 40 bucks per machine. Duh Apple- that should BE FREE for educational customers!! How does Apple expect to keep market share in k-12 when they charge for something that EVERY PC MAKER DOES FOR FREE? Although the previous posters are correct in saying that there are lies in the pdf, it is evident to me that Apple shot themselves in the foot YET AGAIN with this k-12 proposal. But alas, Apple is more concerned with the iPod deployment than the k-12 deployment. Good job Apple Education, you royal dumbasses!!

aer
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05/03, 10:16am | report spam | close Reply |
Arlington

Actually folks the people in Arlington aren't as happy about this as you'd think. And the IT staff is far from being MSFT/Dell Windrones. Many of them are bummed too. This was a decision made from the top with an effort from top brass to cover their asses, that's all. Read the entire PDF. The decision was made before pen touched paper. This is CYA to the nth degree...

testudo
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05/03, 10:19am | report spam | close Reply |
Re: Lies

"Internet Explorer, which is widely used in Arlington Public Schools, is no longer available for OS X. OS X does have its own browser, Safari, however questions remain concerning the long-term impact of the loss of Internet Explorer"

IE has been discontinued for the Mac. Technically, it has been discontinued for windows as well. And since there's so much c*** content out there that only works in IE (or well in IE) since its the predominant browser, this is an issue (and I'm sure this type of impact had no bearing on MS's decision to pull it from the Mac).

"Qualified and affordable Mac technical staff have become increasingly more difficult to recruit and hire which may be due in part to Macs relatively small, 5% computer market share, compared with PCs that enjoy a better than 90% market share"

Talk about lies! The Mac doesn't even come close to having a 5% market share. And it is hard to find qualified people (mainly because there aren't too many MSCE courses for the Mac - and we all know once your MSCE, you can do anything on a PC).

"PC hardware is generally non-proprietary and is compatible between manufacturers while Apple hardware is predominately proprietary and generally not compatible with products with other computer manufacturers"

Umm, this is more true than not. If anything fails on a PC, its relatively cheap to fix it. However, with so much of Apple's stuff 'on the board', you have to replace the motherboard to fix even the simplest of things.

"PC parts are generally less expensive than Mac parts due to their nonproprietary nature"

This isn't a lie either. They're less expensive because manufacturers can make up the difference in volume. Small market share causes more expensive products (why do you thing Intuit sells Quicken and TurboTax so much cheaper on the PC).

"Because of the widespread use of PCs�at home, in the business world, in higher education�a PC platform would better equip students for the computer environment they are likely to encounter everywhere outside of school. It would prepare them to use the technology they will find in the workplace. "

Again, more truth. Its better that students know what its like to have your computer down (or the entire network down) for a day or two as the IT staff tries to disenfect the latest Bagle variety from the network. If they use macs all the time, they'd get into some unrealistic habit of thinking computers should be running all the time, and viruses are something to snicker at, rather than fear. "Viruses, we don't have no stinkin' viruses".

mbryda
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Joined: Mar 2002

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05/03, 10:30am | report spam | close Reply |
umm, get things straight

"Umm, this is more true than not. If anything fails on a PC, its relatively cheap to fix it. However, with so much of Apple's stuff 'on the board', you have to replace the motherboard to fix even the simplest of things."

Have you peeked inside a corporate PC lately? LAN - M/B - Graphics - Inhell not-Extreme, on board w/no AGP slot, etc. It's the same - Mac/PC - it's all on the motherboard, so you replace it no matter what. And, since Dell has proprietarily bastardized the ATX specs, you're back to Dell for that motherboard and pay out the A$$.

"This isn't a lie either. They're less expensive because manufacturers can make up the difference in volume. Small market share causes more expensive products (why do you thing Intuit sells Quicken and TurboTax so much cheaper on the PC)."

When I did my taxes this year, I used TaxCut - same price $39 for the Mac version as the PC version. And I got the rebates for e-file + state too. Sure, you don't get the $9.99 throwaway version that barely does 1040EZ, but I never bought that on the PC side either.

And, an IDE hard drive is the same - PC/MAC. Same with DDR/PC133 RAM, etc. 90% of the parts are the same - PC/Mac.

Bobby
Mac Enthusiast

Joined: Apr 2001

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05/03, 10:47am | report spam | close Reply |
Umm, hello?

One thing they seemed to forget. PC's cost significantly more to maintan than macs. They have a much higher rate of system failures, and the end result will be more down time along with higher costs to pay people to fix them...

SomeToast
Senior User

Joined: Jan 1999

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05/03, 11:35am | report spam | close Reply |
schools

"Because of the widespread use of PCs�at home, in the business world, in higher education�a PC platform would better equip students for the computer environment they are likely to encounter everywhere outside of school. It would prepare them to use the technology they will find in the workplace. "

I keep forgetting that public schools aren't schools at all, but rather vocational training centers.

jgrubic
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05/03, 11:45am | report spam | close Reply |
From the horse's mouth

This is a very competent report.

However, being a technician with a predominantly MacOS school district, a couple of points are severely understated.

1. The APS IT staff says that it is more time consuming to support a Mac than a PC. This is more than likely due to lack of familiarity with the MacOS operating system. All other research online indicates that it is more costly to support Windows PCs. (Some example info is here at http://www.macvspc.info)

2. The security and virus problems on the Windows platform are extremely costly, both in terms of time and money. This is a DAILY battle that must be fought.

3. If you hire even one more IT staff member, you are immediately negating the cost benefit from switching from Macs to PCs.

4. Ultimately, the computer is a tool used across academic disciplines, and the mission of IT staff is to support those tools. Teachers should be allowed to choose what type of tool they use that best helps them accomplish their mission of educating our children. IT staff and administration should not be dictating the choice of computer platform.

5. By "standardizing", you are supporting a monopoly that has been proven illegal in a court of law. You are also restricting the ability of students and staff to make informed choices regarding the computer platform they wish to use.

Ultimately, I believe this decision will cost the Arlington School District dearly in money and time.

Sincerely,

James Grubic
jgrubic@bozeman.k12.mt.us

AcidArgyle
Registered User

Joined: Nov 2003

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05/03, 11:55am | report spam | close Reply |
oh man....

................
Again, more truth. Its better that students know what its like to have your computer down (or the entire network down) for a day or two as the IT staff tries to disenfect the latest Bagle variety from the network. If they use macs all the time, they'd get into some unrealistic habit of thinking computers should be running all the time, and viruses are something to snicker at, rather than fear. "Viruses, we don't have no stinkin' viruses".
...........

anyone else find this completely f*(king ridiculus? It's better to have your kid get in a car accident when the wheel falls off driving a c*** car instead of feeling safe in a tank of a car that just doesnt break down ever...

it just doesnt make sense..... stupid windows mentality... NOONE should have so settle with network outages, problems and blue screens. it SHOULDN't be NORMAL and standard every day livin...

apostingaccount
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05/03, 12:00pm | report spam | close Reply |
Read, then post

I don't work for Arlington Public Schools, but I'm very familiar with them
This response is my personal opinion and is in no way official or sanctioned. I'm going to try and respond to some of the above statements

Fact is, Arlington does not use Windows for document serving. All document sharing and print serving is done using Netware. Email is Novell Groupwise. Web Server runs FreeBSD. Check it out here
http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/graph/?host=www.arlington.k12.va.us
Arlington has not been "bought off"

The Macs in Arlington required significantly more maintenance than the PCs.
See page VII-11
3430 PCs, 3312 Macs in APS - 1408 PCs required hardware maintenance, 1968 Macs required hardware maintenance
Face it... Apple quality control is not what it used to be (witness the iBook Logic Board recall). There is no way that I, a Mac user, could be confident saying Macs are more reliable in their hardware than PCs

Studies have been done to measure teacher utilization of computers. The vast, vast majority of use is of the Internet and Office, both of which are available for Macs and PCs. There aren't killer instructional apps for the Mac that weren't accounted for in the report (iLife, Special ed software,etc). Apple sure focuses a lot on a product, the iPod, that has little or no instructional value

IE matters because far too many instructional web sites are built only with IE in mind. I've tried Safari, Firefox, Mozilla, and other browsers on those sites and they don't work. If you're response is "Don't use the site", why don't you meet with the people who chose the curriculum that goes along with the web site and tell them to stop using a fantastic curriculum because its companion web site doesn't work with browsers that have nowhere near the market share of IE

AER was correct in pointing out Apple's ridiculous charge of $40 to clone each computer. Dell does it for free, so do other manufactures. Dumb move, apple

apostingaccount
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05/03, 12:03pm | report spam | close Reply |
Additional Info

Arlington distributes anti-virus centrally to almost every computer on its network. See Page VII-6

asus
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Joined: Feb 2004

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05/03, 12:10pm | report spam | close Reply |
FUD...

"Because of the widespread use of PCs�at home, in the business world, in higher education�a PC platform would better equip students for the computer environment they are likely to encounter everywhere outside of school. It would prepare them to use the technology they will find in the workplace. "

This is the worst argument, yet I hear it time and time again. I _am_ one of those kids who grew up in the "internet/computer" generation. I went to a top 20 University, and majored in computer science. I can tell you this, I played oregon trail, learned to type, and used mathblasters on Apple IIe's, Commedore 64s, and Macs all my life and I turned out fine. My parents generation used punch cards and UNIX mainframes and you better believe that when they were confronted with PCs at work they adapted fine..

You see, its not the specific nuances of any program or OS they you need to teach people in elementary school. Its the basics of how to use the computer as a tool to get real work done. Those basic skills can be generalized and transfered to any system. School is not about teaching you a trade, its about teaching you how to think.

Saying you need to use Windows to be "prepared for the _real_ world" is just BS. We all know that 20 years from now, when those first graders are trying to get their first job, they will be using some computer system that hasn't even been thought of yet. Having used MS Office XP when they were 10 is not gonna make a bit of difference.

gain, more truth. Its better that students know what its like to have your computer down (or the entire network down) for a day or two as the IT staff tries to disenfect the latest Bagle variety from the network. If they use macs all the time, they'd get into some unrealistic habit of thinking computers should be running all the time, and viruses are something to snicker at, rather than fear. "Viruses, we don't have no stinkin' viruses".

Again, more BS. What, are you gonna argue that we should all buy Yugos instead of Hondas cause we should learn to be "used to" our cars breaking down on the side of the road. The fact is, there is an alternative to windows that is more reliable and does not crash. I would much rather have 1) my kids doing something productive on their school computers than waiting for the IT guy to fix them and 2) the IT guy working to actually add services to the computing environment that is going to enhance my child's learning experience (like working with teaching staff to develop computer teaching aides and curriculum around the computers) than running around getting rid of viruses and fixing problems that shouldn't be there to begin with.

apostingaccount
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05/03, 12:14pm | report spam | close Reply |
More responses

Responses to Mr. Grubic

" 1. The APS IT staff says that it is more time consuming to support a Mac than a PC. This is more than likely due to lack of familiarity with the MacOS operating system. All other research online indicates that it is more costly to support Windows PCs."

Arlington has FANTASTIC Mac support personnel, who have had to write entire systems to manage Mac network logins due to the insufficiency of the tools Apple provids. Ask Apple why it has taken until 10.3 Server for LDAP to work correctly, and it still does not do everything it should

"2. The security and virus problems on the Windows platform are extremely costly, both in terms of time and money. This is a DAILY battle that must be fought."

Yes, this is a daily battle and unless you are advocating a switch of an entire school district to Macs, it would be found regardless of the switch

"3. If you hire even one more IT staff member, you are immediately negating the cost benefit from switching from Macs to PCs."

Actually, the cost benefit is because Apple's server structure requires each school to have it's own separate server (See Page VII-4). Netware allows significant server considation

"4. Ultimately, the computer is a tool used across academic disciplines, and the mission of IT staff is to support those tools. Teachers should be allowed to choose what type of tool they use that best helps them accomplish their mission of educating our children. IT staff and administration should not be dictating the choice of computer platform."

However, the tools that are most widely used are available for both and where there are tools with significant educational benefit (iTools, Special Ed), Macs are being retained

"5. By "standardizing", you are supporting a monopoly that has been proven illegal in a court of law. You are also restricting the ability of students and staff to make informed choices regarding the computer platform they wish to use."

Would you rather students and staff have choice and an ITC (Instructional Technology Coordinator) have to spend much more time troubleshooting computers (as the report presents) or would you rather have that ITC spend his/her time training teachers on effective integration of technology and instruction. Hmmm, I'd rather have the latter, since it is, after all, about learning, not computers.

skcalanderson
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05/03, 12:26pm | report spam | close Reply |
More Work for MCSE/A

Ah, today I will keep my job again because I get to update all of the Windows machines, again. There are 3 patches out this am. Perhaps I can set the machines up and the users can do it, oops the patch broke our main app.

I am sorry, but Microsoft's security model is broken, but we keep supporting them hoping they will get it right. Maybe someday. But at least I have a job and those mean hackers make me look really smart.

Just drink the koolaid, sit back and relax...

VadersCape
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Joined: Mar 2004

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05/03, 12:38pm | report spam | close Reply |
Follow Up?

The real problem is that there will never be a follow up report that documents the comparison of current costs incurred vs. the post-switch cost that is all-inclusive.

MS has done a great job dominating the market with its inferior products running on disposable hardware from a plethora of manufacturers. The MCSE program is a phenomenal tool for recruiting people in the workforce to further champion that domination. These MS minions and the folks they influence are not going to be easily convinced that there is a better way even if a neon sign appears that alternately flashes "BETTER WAY", "AVOID OBSOLESCENCE" and "PROTECT YOUR INCOME" while pointing to the better alternative every time they hit CTRL-ALT-DEL or have to rebuild a computer in frustration.

One of these days - and it will be sooner rather than later - a virus is going to hit MS-based machines that will be unequivocably catastrophic. These last few rounds over the past year or so simply smack of test runs for the wave of destruction that looms on the horizon. And after all of the devastation to data caused by that wave, folks will just rebuild these machines and wait for it to happen again. And it will.

AcidArgyle
Registered User

Joined: Nov 2003

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05/03, 12:45pm | report spam | close Reply |
well said

well spoken.

bstone
Baninated

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05/03, 12:53pm | report spam | close Reply |
Bad move

As a sysadmin at a university, it has been my experience that the PCs break down, get hacked into and infected by viruses FAR more often than the Macs do. Macs last longer and require less interaction to get them to work.

It's a baaaad move.

aer
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05/03, 12:55pm | report spam | close Reply |
not quite fair

I am familiar somewhat with Arlington's setup too. I think the repair/support costs section of the PDF is only speaking a half truth. In APS k-5, they have many iBook carts- mobile computing labs. In 6-12 they have little or no PC laptops. Of course repairs are higher on mobile computers used by elementary students that desktops used by grades 6-12.. so this is a little slanted towards the PC side of things. If they had an equal number of Dell Inspiron laptops in the upper grades to what they have iBooks in k-5, the PC support costs might be staggering. My point is that mobile computers, regardless of platform are harder to manage , take care of and have a shorter lifespan. Since Arlington has almost no PC laptops, this report is in effect comparing two very different things. Not to mention, when you add in the age of the students using the Mac portables, you throw off the comparison even more. It isn't scientific or fair to compare.

klinux
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Joined: Jul 2002

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05/03, 01:31pm | report spam | close Reply |
FUD

"One of these days - and it will be sooner rather than later - a virus is going to hit MS-based machines that will be unequivocably catastrophic."

You have to be kidding me right? Mac users have to stop lying to themselves. Everytime we say "one more virus" or "ha ha, we don't have any viruses" and the Windows users will come over any second now! Does it happen? No! Apparently, whatever reasons they have, and there could be many, for switch Macs to PCs, outweigh the negative effects of getting a virus.

Then you have to ask yourselves, what is it about Apple/Mac, that makes people want to go to the PC side?

runenfool
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05/03, 01:45pm | report spam | close Reply |
Apple's servers

No doubt Apple has some work to do on 10.x servers - they are much better than ASIP, but they are by no means perfect. HOWEVER, if the district is running Netware servers they are going to have a different platform on the desktop ANYWAY. So who says that they will need to migrate? In fact, its pretty likely that OS X in the next few years will integrate with a Linux based Netware OS far better than Windows desktops. Or how about using something like a big Sun directory server (or eDirectory, or the IBM one, or even OpenLDAP) for account management, and then have the servers integrate into that infrastructure?

Working at a University with central virus scanning I can tell you it doesn't do much good when the worms hit BEFORE the IDEs are updated (which is common). It also doesn't help that you have to spend a lot of money on network security (patch management, firewalls, etc.) because of the poor network design of Windows.

At any rate, its pointless to argue this here (as Ive always said). You need to have people in the district who are willing to fight this! Otherwise we will continue to see schools move toward MS until using Apple is no longer a viable alternative in K12 edu.

Apple does need to get off their a**, however. Their K12 sales and marketing team is, and has been for many years, a mess. Its very disappointing how they have seriously dropped the ball. Not only that, but they like to *talk* about gaining market share without actually *doing* much about it. Where are the training courses? Oh yea, Apple doesn't want to donate their hardware in exchange for community colleges including it in their curriculum. Thats the only way we are going to see more than a small number of Mac techs (comparable to market share) - and thats for students in community colleges and tech schools to be required to learn the Mac as a part of their curriculum. How does that happen? Ask Microsoft with C# and .NET - they know how to buy people off .. I mean, give grants.

Apple SHOULD be able to better focus on the iPod and the Mac, but it sure as h*** doesn't seem like they are, does it? They just love being so secretive that its s******* them worse than the old days with the constant rumors.

OsakaBill
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Joined: Oct 1999

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05/03, 03:24pm | report spam | close Reply |
Why Do People Buy PCs?

1.) Price, Price, Price.

Face it, most people cannot think long term. What hits everyone, what everyone can see, is the upfront costs. $599 2 GHz machines are far more attractive than $799 1 GHz machine. we know the difference, but the average guy or gal on the street does not.

2.) Faster, "better" Internet experience.

For a variety of reason, using the Internet is far richer experience on the Windows side. Consider Yahoo! Chat. On a Windows machine, Yahoo! Chat supports the use of avitars, supports voice chat in rooms, and web cams. Furthermore, the response of the java app is quicker. Yahoo! Chat 333 MHz HP running Windows XP runs circles around my 1GHz PowerBook running OS X 10.2 (and chat is broken on my PowerMac G4 running 10.3). The same can be said of most web based games.

3.) Games

I hate to say it, but a lot of people buy PCs to play games. Most games are designed and optmized for PCs and the Mac version�if there is one�is an after thought. This comes through in the gaming experience.

iKenny
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05/03, 04:21pm | report spam | close Reply |
As a student...

I read the PDF and personally was shocked. As a student in APS, I take a computer science class which uses PCs, and you would not believe the number of problems we have had with these 10-month of computers. They freeze when floppies/CDs are inserted, the students have hacked into them on numerous occasions, they lose the network, have to be restarted all the time, and every last piece of software we use in the class is available on Mac as well. Meanwhile, the 3 year old eMacs in the library keep chugging day and night, with few problems. iBook carts are happily wheeled throughout the school, and they even use an AirPort base station to serve wireless to the building.

I'm sure the people in the upper levels didn't get a good picture; most teachers have never tried OS X and blindly accept Windows as the best. Most of the students feel the same way. I've talked to lots of my friends about this, and many of them say that Windows is better - without ever having tried OS X in their lives. When I show them iMovies I made for fun or for school projects, they're blown away, and then when I tell them it can only be done on a Mac, they stare at me, then declare again that PCs are better. Apple has a mindshare issue to overcome; perhaps the iPod is the way to do that (anyone in my school w/ an MP3 player has an iPod; I've seen about 20 around school), but unless Apple advertises their computers as well, who's going to make the connection?

Despite all this, the fact remains that Apple's small share, proprietary (somewhat) parts, small support base, and initial higher prices are major problems for a school system. I would be thrilled to see the schools reverse the decision, but its not going to happen. Still in the world today, there is too much riding against Apple. Most of it is in people's heads, but it's there. Perhaps the decision will be reversed later, but for now I have to say that after reading the report, the PCs to seem to be a better choice.

As the report states, of the 45 school districts in Virginia they polled, 37 have gone all PC and are fairly happy. Only one or two (Henrico) have gone Mac, and are happy as well. You can't argue with facts.

macs4all
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Joined: Aug 2003

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05/03, 05:00pm | report spam | close Reply |
Here's What I emailed

Here's what I emailed the Superintendant of Arlington Public Schools:

As a former student of APS (Wakefield H.S.), I find your decision to move to a predominantly Windows platform to be the antithesis of intelligence. A 1997 Gartner Group study found that, not only does it NOT cost more to support multiple platforms (which you admittedly wil still be doing), but, more importantly, that the more Macintosh computers you have in your 'mix', the LOWER your administration, hardware, and support costs. This is even more true now, because Macintosh computers are on a cost-par (or even less expensive) to NAME BRAND Windows systems (disregarding the mythical $400 no-name PC, that will wind up being ANYTHING but a 'bargain'!). If you are being told otherwise, then you are simply being lied to. Apple has the most robust, secure, crash-proof Operating System on the planet, and, to answer your next objection, there are tens-of-thousands of software applications available for the Macintosh, including every major software package that you can think of. PLEASE do not make the Windows mistake! If you MUST standardize on a single platform, why not make it the Mac? Contact Apple. They will be more than happy to give you special pricing for your hardware and software needs.

macs4all
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Joined: Aug 2003

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05/03, 05:19pm | report spam | close Reply |
To the 'Student', above

EMAIL THOSE OBSERVATIONS regarding your computer lab's hackability, etc. to the Superintendant. ALSO, TELL YOUR PARENTS to get on the phone, and get THEIR freinds on the phone, to express their displeasure regarding this. School districts will NEVER listen to a student, but then PARENTS start complaining, they DEFINITELY listen (remember, the superintendent is an ELECTED office, usually)... ;-)

VadersCape
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05/03, 07:12pm | report spam | close Reply |
Fact, Not FUD, klinux

Who said anything about them switching? As I noted, if anything, these windows lemmings will still rebuild their machines and let it happen again. And it will. Switching? No, that's something they won't even being to think of until they're victimized a lot more.

The kicker is that I'm talking about a personally catastrophic virus ... not one of these DOS attackers or spam-sending nuisances. Those pale by comparison. I'm talking about one that reformats/corrupts your hard drive and/or sends your email files to a central site for further perusal and then securely deletes them and/or transfers "interesting" files to a central site for the same perusal treatment again with a non-recoverable delete. It's going to take a lot of electroncially exposed company secrets and a lot of electronically appropriated and/or destroyed personal information before the thought of a possible alternative even occurs to these users. Or how about we just change a few random digits in one of your spreadsheets on you behind your back?

But I certainly agree that right now they prefer using the system at hand, despite the fact that it posesses an untold number of easily exploitable (and possibly fatal) flaws. That's what they're used to and an occasional nuisance is to be expected. It's when the occasional nuisance becomes a major catastrophe that it might wake some of them up. Perhaps a few more will wake up after they're hit a second time. And some more after the third time.

But to think that a catastrophic virus attach won't happen is naive at best and incompetent at worse. If you don't believe me, ask an airport security screener.

klinux
Senior User

Joined: Jul 2002

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05/03, 07:34pm | report spam | close Reply |
More FUD

"I'm talking about one that reformats/corrupts your hard drive and/or sends your email files to a central site for further perusal and then securely deletes them and/or transfers "interesting" files to a central site for the same perusal treatment again with a non-recoverable delete."

Heck, you could have said this 6 months ago, 12 months, and 24 months ago. Even more, I am sure you can think of even scarier scenario than this regarding what COULD happen to the PC machine. Afterall, this is exactly by defintion what defines FUD - fear, uncertainty, and doubt.

The fact is, it has not happened. The fact is, many other viruses and worms have occurred and that has not switched PC users to Mac users in large droves. To say, imagine what could happen therefore you should do this and that, is just plain crying that sky will fall.

And "fatal" flaws? Give me a break.

VadersCape
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05/03, 09:27pm | report spam | close Reply |
More FACT

Wow, klinux - you couldn't miss the point more if it were hidden in the core of a planet on the other side of the sun. Three galaxies over. So I'll just attribute it to a total lack of technical risk assessment skills coupled with absolutely no common sense.

You say that the fact is that it has not happened. By that logic, you should cancel all of your insurance since you've never been in an automobile accident, your house hasn't been destroyed and you haven't died. Let us know when you've done that. You've probably never lost a file either, so there's no need for you to make back up copies of those either. I love this line of reasoning: I'm safe from everything that hasn't happened to me!!!

As I said above (twice - you can count, can't you klinux?), I don't think a catastrophic virus is going to cause many if any PC users to switch to a Mac when it occurs. The vast majority of them will just take their lumps and let it happen again and again. But if I came home over and over again to find a window broken, crowbar pry-type marks around the front door and other such signs over the past 6 months, 12 months, or even 24 months, I'd be just a wee bit concerned that something bigger was coming - even if nothing was missing from the house.

But I really love the fact that these MS drones can dish out the FUD en masse but anything that even remotely threatens their little fantasy world (e.g., my MS-based PC is safe from attack because it's never happened to me) is immediately branded as FUD. I say, the klinux lady doth protest too much, doesn't she?

esc
Junior Member

Joined: May 2002

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05/03, 09:49pm | report spam | close Reply |
documentation and reasons

Apple needs to work harder on contracts like this. Our local school system (in NJ) switched to Windows last year and the justification/recommendation document was largely created by the Dell sales force.

There are reasons to go for one platform or another and Apple needs to come up with a clear justification that requires little work by the local technology groups - doing the work for these people is important. (sad to say)

Our system was hit by the Worms of August last Summer and getting the new Windows system back in order blew through the budget.

oh well ...

vpolmac
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Joined: May 2004

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05/11, 07:41am | report spam | close Reply |
ignore this at your peril

There is no question that the majority of us on this site steadfastly support Macintosh, but we do our cause great harm if we ignore what has happend here. For the first time in my memory, a school system has posted what appears to be a balanced review of their reasoning for adopting a Wintel platform as their default OS. Whether you agree with their reasoning or not isn't the issue so much as they posted a clear explination of their thinking and it was based on what reads as a fair process to weigh all sides.

I personally think they ignored some issues that weigh in OS X favor, but what stands out to me is the failure of Apple to win the account. Supposedly Apple pulled out the stops to win the State of Michigan only to lose to Dell. This report took a census on Virginia whose public school systems appear to be dumping Mac wholesale. This is significant in a State that also has Apple's greatest marketing success to date (VA Tech SuperComputer). What the Arlington Public School is saying is that they would have stayed a Mac shop if the support from Apple Inc had been there, they asked four that support and found it costing more than Apple's chief competitor in education sales (Dell).

What's more, APS went out of it's way to develop it's own software tools to allow the administration of OS X servers and workstations on a network with extreme support from Apple. APS isn't sure it can count on this type of close support every time it needs it going forward. Continuing it's decline, the latest hardware from Apple though stylish is a pain in the butt to service. You might recall that one of the selling points for pizza box Mac, and the original G3 & G4 was the ease at getting inside of the box to service them.

The bottom line is this, Apple Inc has become distracted from it's core constituency and that customer is abondoning them. This is less a costraint on the OS, as it is a failure of Apple Inc to provide support.

This is a serious systemic problem. If Apple can't solve this then it should exit the personal computer business. If you love Macintosh, you need to ask yourself something, in the 20th year of the platform where is the marketing celebrating that fact? Instead we are treated to a smaller iPod. I think Apple has already decided to exit personal Computers.

vpolmac
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: May 2004

0

05/11, 07:59am | report spam | close Reply |
ignore this at your peril

There is no question that the majority of us on this site steadfastly support Macintosh, but we do our cause great harm if we ignore what has happend here. For the first time in my memory, a school system has posted what appears to be a balanced review of their reasoning for adopting a Wintel platform as their default OS. Whether you agree with their reasoning or not isn't the issue so much as they posted a clear explination of their thinking and it was based on what reads as a fair process to weigh all sides.

I personally think they ignored some issues that weigh in OS X favor, but what stands out to me is the failure of Apple to win the account. Supposedly Apple pulled out the stops to win the State of Michigan only to lose to Dell. This report took a census on Virginia whose public school systems appear to be dumping Mac wholesale. This is significant in a State that also has Apple's greatest marketing success to date (VA Tech SuperComputer). What the Arlington Public School is saying is that they would have stayed a Mac shop if the support from Apple Inc had been there, they asked four that support and found it costing more than Apple's chief competitor in education sales (Dell).

What's more, APS went out of it's way to develop it's own software tools to allow the administration of OS X servers and workstations on a network with extreme support from Apple. APS isn't sure it can count on this type of close support every time it needs it going forward. Continuing it's decline, the latest hardware from Apple though stylish is a pain in the butt to service. You might recall that one of the selling points for pizza box Mac, and the original G3 & G4 was the ease at getting inside of the box to service them.

The bottom line is this, Apple Inc has become distracted from it's core constituency and that customer is abondoning them. This is less a costraint on the OS, as it is a failure of Apple Inc to provide support.

This is a serious systemic problem. If Apple can't solve this then it should exit the personal computer business. If you love Macintosh, you need to ask yourself something, in the 20th year of the platform where is the marketing celebrating that fact? Instead we are treated to a smaller iPod. I think Apple has already decided to exit personal Computers.

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Arlington, VA public schools move away from Macs

updated 07:35 am EDT, Mon May 3, 2004

Schools standardize on PCs

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