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iPod effect: portability vs. sonic quality discussion

updated 11:35 am EDT, Mon May 3, 2004

AES on iPod effect

The Audio Engineering Society (AES) New York Section will discuss the , according to Stereophile Magazine. "The organization has announced what it terms a 'controversial and essential' industry forum on the relevance of 16-bit and high-resolution formats such as DVD-A and SACD in a market 'where consumers are flocking to the portability � and significantly lower sonic quality�of digital media players such as Apple's iPod.' The event will take place on Wednesday, May 12, 6:30pm, at Tinker Auditorium at the French Institute�Alliance Francaise in New York at 55 East 59th Street (between Park and Madison Avenues)."

by MacNN Staff

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David Esrati
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Jun 1999

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05/03, 12:13pm | report spam | close Reply |
death of high fi?

This is long overdue.
Between the big box stores plowing the hifi shops under- the rush to "home theater" systems- and then the mp3 "revolution" people are accepting dreck for sound quality and hurting the ears of people who know the difference-
it's sad when FM radio has better fidelity than an mp3.
I own an ipod - and love it for it's portability- but, honestly- if I want to listen to music seriously- the thing is a piece of junk compared to my Linn system.

gunnar
Mac Enthusiast

Joined: Feb 1999

0

05/03, 12:25pm | report spam | close Reply |
Agreed

Both the hifi industry and the recording/movie industry have killed quality home audio. They pushed features and new formats so hard that consumers gave up on upgrading and instead concentrated on getting the cheapest c*** that would meet their most basic needs. I guess it's hard to stop China from flooding the market but the trend is not going to change now. People have bought c*** and don't know there's anything better so they'll be happy with c*** in the future. The iPod isn't a particularly good example either because the sound quality is pretty good, but all the other players and Best Buy equipment are prime examples.

ipod21
Baninated

Joined: Apr 2004

0

05/03, 12:27pm | report spam | close Reply |
just depends...

just depends on what you're after. Most people can't tell the difference in sound between mp3, FM, and even CD quality music. Most also don't have the money to buy a sound system that would be able to accuratly reproduce the sound quality of an SACD That's the case with me, I bought my SACD home theatre system based on a the best quality for the money. What I'm more disappointed in is the number of artist/record companies producing music in SACD or DVD Audio formats. I'd much rather buy a hybrid CD/SACD of my favorite artist so I'd at least have the option of the higher quality.

scottnichol
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Joined: Oct 1999

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05/03, 12:32pm | report spam | close Reply |
hifi alive and well

i think this is such an non-issue and don't know why a bunch of audio professionals are wasting their time with this forum. the iPod (as well as the WalkMan and DiscMan) are all about convenience, not High Fidelity. i can't bring my McIntosh amps and studio monitors into work with me nor can i listen to that kit when i'm running at the park.

the folks who don't want to sacrifice the quality will ultimately not buy 128K AAC files.

Dalhectar
Junior Member

Joined: Jan 2002

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05/03, 12:32pm | report spam | close Reply |
Most people...

also use Windows and a plurality watch reality TV. Mass acceptance does not equate good taste. I don't think SACD people have much to be worried about though, there's enough interest in hifi to keep it going, just as there's enough interest in Macs to keep it going in a PC world.

JeffHarris
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Joined: Oct 1999

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05/03, 12:37pm | report spam | close Reply |
Deafer and Dumber

This is an interesting argument.

The majority of people don't even know what music is supposed to sound like. Fidelity is not the issue. Instant absorbtion is. Go to a typical pop concert (I use the term pop in the broadest sense, like the term classical) and what do you hear? A huge PA system. At best it's mid-fi, usually it's merely LOUD. The sound of real instruments moving air isn't even approached (or considered). So, what do they expect from the mass of tin-eared consumers?

As far as digital music and players are concerned, they want it fast and cheap (preferably free). The majority of pop music is designed like fast food... instantly absorbed and quickly expelled.

Portable players and mp3 DO introduce people to music they would NEVER have been exposed to if left to the recording and broadcast music business. Maybe, some will find their way beyond lo and mid-fi music systems (to Linn or Naim and beyond). There still is a market for minimally compressed music (CD, SACD, DVD-Audio), but as far as those formats are concerned, there needs to be a wider range of music available. And how many people will dump their current CDs for a higher fidelity recording of the same thing? Some. Hopefully many.

It's something to think about.

MDLarson
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Joined: Apr 2004

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05/03, 12:42pm | report spam | close Reply |
Subject

I guess I have low quality ears since my iPod sounds great to me.

milkcrate
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Oct 2003

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05/03, 01:09pm | report spam | close Reply |
not irreconcilable

The hifi audio industry needs to work with the iPod world, not lament it. The iPod is capable of playing wav, aiff and now the new Apple lossless codec. I use Grado SR-80 with my iPod and mostly Apple Lossless now, and the sonic experience is quite remarkable for a PORTABLE.

Hopefully, Apple Lossless will take off with more discerning listeners. Manufacturers need to accept that a lot of people listen with their iTunes on their computer. Most will listen to mp3 and AAC, but a growing number are going to take advantage of Lossless (especially as harddrives become larger and cheaper). I would love to see hi-end audio companies address this by installing USB or Firewire inputs to their receivers. You can live in both worlds, and enjoy each for their strengths.

milkcrate
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Joined: Oct 2003

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05/03, 01:15pm | report spam | close Reply |
about SACD and DVD-A

I think downloadable music will win the battle with SACD etc, with the general populace. Downloadable music provides additional value to consumers through convenience. It is easy to pick a song and buy it and have it automatically playable on your hard drive or iPod.

SACD and DVD-Audio, although they provide higher quality audio, don't offer anything above what a CD already offers. It is simply a CD with improved sound. It doesn't intrinsically change the experience of buying music, like downloadable music does.

Average listeners are going to respond more to added value and convenience in obtaining music, more so than the added quality of that music.

milkcrate
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Joined: Oct 2003

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05/03, 01:15pm | report spam | close Reply |
about SACD and DVD-A

I think downloadable music will win the battle with SACD etc, with the general populace. Downloadable music provides additional value to consumers through convenience. It is easy to pick a song and buy it and have it automatically playable on your hard drive or iPod.

SACD and DVD-Audio, although they provide higher quality audio, don't offer anything above what a CD already offers. It is simply a CD with improved sound. It doesn't intrinsically change the experience of buying music, like downloadable music does.

Average listeners are going to respond more to added value and convenience in obtaining music, more so than the added quality of that music.

bobolicious
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Joined: Aug 2002

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05/03, 01:25pm | report spam | close Reply |
HiFi meets WiFi...

Well a year ago I bought an iPod & sold it within a week - the quality of the sound was so poor I got ear fatigue within 3 or 4 songs...

The codec improvement in 1 yr is remarkable - and I was merely waiting until HDs were big enough to code AIFFs - so really what Apple has done is doubled the HD size with software, which seems very smart to me...

Now we can debate the merits of gold plated connectors, monster cable, etc. but to be quite honest the things I HEAR the biggest difference from are speakers & in the iPod's case source - everything in between seems to have a relatively small difference - so traditionally I've run a CD walkman, Walkman Pro for tape & a REGA Planar turntable for my vinyl through a pretty standard receiver to several variations of horn based speakers...

As far as I'm concerned I'm almost there - once we get an iPod that does CD quality AND can record source material I'll be very tempted to make the switch...

Todd Madson
Mac Elite

Joined: Apr 2000

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05/03, 01:31pm | report spam | close Reply |
Thoughts....

The average individual is not going to have a Linn-Sondek LP12 in their living room. Few have that kind
of cash to blow.

Still, I'd imagine that few audiophile types even KNOW about the Apple Lossless codec since it was just introduced a few days ago. The fact that the iPod can play .AIFF and .WAV files is probably similarly overshadowed by the fact that it's mainly known as an MP3 player.

I'll actually be using my iPod to provide backing for one of my solo shows this summer which will be an experiment but it sure beats hiring a bass player and drummer for some of what I'd like to do. The .AIFF and .WAV sound quality is surprisingly good and I was very surprised to find one of my finished masters that I encoded on friday to sound so similar to the original using the Apple Lossless codec that I could not really find an objectionable difference. This coming from a musician with 26 years of experience in playing music as well as recording it.

Feeling_Macish
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Mar 2004

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05/03, 01:38pm | report spam | close Reply |
The sad thing

Is that as things become cheaper and more accessible, the concern that once was with regard to quality kind of goes away as an issue, leaving those minority holdouts looking much like those who wish to keep the Gaelic language alive - a bunch of fools peeing in the wind. The worst thing in this case is that the vinyl LP, whose sound was FAR superior to CD and all these even crappier digital formats that provide the ease of use and the portability, is a sonic experience fewer and fewer will ever come to know. Ask Neil Young, who should know, which is better and he will tell you. The LP. Music is no longer escape as much as background noise; nor is it "art" as much as it is "content".

cmoney
Mac Enthusiast

Joined: Sep 2000

0

05/03, 02:18pm | report spam | close Reply |
money

if people are complaining about the cost of the ipod mini (at $249) how in the h*** do you people think a linn is even in the minds of normal people? if apple is considered a niche market, a cd player/true hi-fi system that costs an order of magnitude more is an even smaller niche market.

i'd say there's a quality threshold point, above which most people don't care about surpassing. especially when the cost is so outrageously high.

Filburt
Junior Member

Joined: Aug 2001

0

05/03, 02:26pm | report spam | close Reply |
Greed killing hi-fi

I consider myself an audiophile (my AAC files are ripped at 320 Kbps.) and I consider CD to be mid-fi at best. However, the hi-fi industry pretty much killed itself by:
1. Confusing the public with SACD and DVD-Audio formats (there's room for only one)
2. RIAA's piracy fear leading to poor digital connectivity option (most SACD and DVD-Audio players cannot stream SACD/DVD-Audio signals digitally)
3. Lackluster software availability and/or relatively higher media cost

I am not sure if iPod represents the future of music, but I want higher fidelity. With Apple Lossless Encoding, I think Apple is trying to cater audiophile market as well. Perhaps they will add support for digital audio output (at least on the dock) and higher bitrate iTunes Music Store (free 128 Kbps music sounds awful).

slipperfrog
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Nov 2002

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05/03, 03:08pm | report spam | close Reply |
Who cares?

Man, I wish I had as much free time as these guys. The biggest worry in their life seems to be why people like MP3s instead of DVD-A and SACD. Me, I'm worrying about paying my bills and keeping food on the table. I'll take their worries any day of the week, man.

Must be nice.

chas_m
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Aug 2001

0

05/03, 03:30pm | report spam | close Reply |
Totally unfair

The last time I looked, the iPod has no problem playing lossless files such as AIFF or Apple's new Lossless codec. So it's not THE DEVICE that is to "blame" for lowering audio "standards," or anything to do with Apple -- if you want to blame someone, blame the guy who came up with MP3 in the first place.

Blaming the iPod is like blaming the Walkman for making cassettes popular, and it's a pretty cheap shot to grab a little publicity.

JoshFofer
Junior Member

Joined: Nov 1999

0

05/03, 04:03pm | report spam | close Reply |
Thank goodness

I'm so glad I'm not an audiophile with ears of crystal. MP3's and the iPod sound fine to me, my PowerBook music server is my favorite component, playing my music throughout the house and sharing it when every computer I have.

If I were a "true" audiophile I'd probably be broke by now and in the nuthouse.

JeffHarris
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Oct 1999

0

05/03, 05:33pm | report spam | close Reply |
Who blames the iPod?

Obviously it's not the iPod, but today's pervasive "it's good enough" mentality that allows entities like McDonalds, Dell, Microsoft, WalMart, network TV and Britney Spears (among many others) to thrive. Our LCD (lowest common denomiator) society allows it.

My girlfriend's iPod mini is a fantastic little device. Now that Apple has released their new less-lossy compression scheme, I may get one for myself. I still won't carry Wagner's Ring around with me, though. But if I did, which recording would it be? Solti, Karajan, Böhm, Boulez, or Levine? Tough choice. Now that's the kind of choice I'd rather have to make, rather than how much music will be lost by compressing it further than the CD.

Contrary to what JoshFofer says, audiophilia is a haven and joyful world to inhabit. It's true that some go completely overboard, memorize and rattle off worthless specs and listen to the equipment. It's important to set limits (not unlike everything else). But, as with the iPod, it's all about the music!

David Esrati
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Jun 1999

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05/03, 05:56pm | report spam | close Reply |
Everyone can hear the dif

This is what scares me-
it's not the argument of the ipod sound-
what happens when everyone buys online- and we can't get a CD- or better yet- SACD or DVDaudio?
If demonstrated properly- anyone can hear the difference between analog and digital, an iPod vs a CD, and good equipment and real fidelity- the ability to follow the tune, discern the instruments, place them on a soundstage- it's easy to hear if you listen.
I rip all my music at the highest sample rate- I would go to the lossless codec- but from what I read- it doesn't work with 2g iPod's...
As the Porsche of computers- why isn't apple leading the audio world with the Linn of audio quality.
I won't buy music as an MP3- I want the full audio quality. I am afraid what happens when the last independent record store closes...

testudo
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Aug 2001

0

05/03, 06:38pm | report spam | close Reply |
Re: everyone can hear the

The point is, not everyone cares to hear the 'difference'. Listening to music isn't primary task of mine. Its a background task. I've got too little time and too much to do to waste just sitting in a listening room going "oooh, he hit the fourth string on that banjo!". As such, sound quality is of less importance to me (and many like me), as we don't notice the difference on these things anyway (h***, I had trouble realizing I inadvertently ripped an album at 64 mbps). That's why Linn is a niche product maker. Only a small group want to spend $10,000 on just the wiring for their sound system.

JeffHarris
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Oct 1999

0

05/03, 07:14pm | report spam | close Reply |
Re: Everyone can hear…

The loss of choice worries me as well. What if CDs or SACDs disappear and only lo-fi samples are available. It will be a poor world.

testudo - $10K cables are the extreme. One needn't go financially insane or broke to get excellent sound. Check out British gear like Creek or Arcam. Just buy good souce equipment and build from there. And unlike computers, you needn't upgrade every 3 years or so.

http://www.creekaudio.co.uk/
http://www.arcam.co.uk/index.cfm

Linn may be a niche, but so is the Macintosh. Big deal. For some of us, hearing that banjo banjo string or an ecstatic oboe solo in an orchestral recording it's worth it. None of it replaces hearing the Vienna Philharmonic at Carnegie Hall, but if it can be a little close to that? Aaaahhhhhh!!!!

klinux
Senior User

Joined: Jul 2002

0

05/03, 07:57pm | report spam | close Reply |
Hypocritical

h***, I had trouble realizing I inadvertently ripped an album at 64 mbps

You mean 64kbps, don't you?

And if that is the case, why aren't you ripping at 64kbps? Or are you one of those people who advises people on what bps and codec they should be ripping at/with despite those choices are 100% personal and subjective choices - something I have always asserted.

Filburt
Junior Member

Joined: Aug 2001

0

05/03, 08:28pm | report spam | close Reply |
Re: everyone can hear the

Perhaps some of you don't care to hear the difference, but everyone will benefit from higher fidelity audio. After all, many thought cassettes were good enough. Why settle for "oh, this sounds good enough for me" when change can bring "wow, this sounds much better!"

The industry should strive for higher excellence. And I think that's what Apple wants also (by improving AAC and by introducing ALC). IMS is obvious targeted for the masses, but perhaps someday Apple will roll out premium recordings (i.e., ALS encoded from master recording) for higher fee.

bobolicious
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Aug 2002

0

05/04, 12:51am | report spam | close Reply |
Right... They'll kill...

...the CD & then 'upcharge' us for the deliverable 'audiophile' that is 'too big to download'...

Let's hope garage band spawns a plentitude of talent & the music store & ipod offers a low cost distribution option that benefits everyone... er except the traditoinal big labels...?

klinux
Senior User

Joined: Jul 2002

0

05/04, 03:40am | report spam | close Reply |
Man

Say something bad about Apple and every zealot comes out firing... except the article is not about iPod at all, just saying a generation raised on portal digital music player, compressed music (both literally and in dynamic range of current pop music records and in radio), etc are dumbing down one's ears - which is true.

tontondavid10
Fresh-Faced Recruit

Joined: Mar 2004

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05/05, 06:41am | report spam | close Reply |
you poncy gits

What the heck do you need to spend several thousand dollars on a sound system whose own designers actually admit at best recuperates 1% lost audio quality compared to your standard hi-fi? Exactly what difference do you guys hear? Hiss? Noise? Someone belching in the background? This reminds me of that brilliant piece of music by sonic youth called silence, it was all about demonstrating that your musical experience is entirely dictated by your environment and that even when you think you're listening to silence you're still listening to background noise.

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iPod effect: portability vs. sonic quality discussion

updated 11:35 am EDT, Mon May 3, 2004

AES on iPod effect

death of high fi?

Agreed

just depends...

hifi alive and well

Most people...

Deafer and Dumber

Subject

not irreconcilable

about SACD and DVD-A

about SACD and DVD-A

HiFi meets WiFi...

Thoughts....

The sad thing

money

Greed killing hi-fi

Who cares?

Totally unfair

Thank goodness

Who blames the iPod?

Everyone can hear the dif

Re: everyone can hear the

Re: Everyone can hear…

Hypocritical

Re: everyone can hear the

Right... They'll kill...

Man

you poncy gits

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iPod effect: portability vs. sonic quality discussion

updated 11:35 am EDT, Mon May 3, 2004

AES on iPod effect

Related Articles

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death of high fi?

Agreed

just depends...

hifi alive and well

Most people...

Deafer and Dumber

Subject

not irreconcilable

about SACD and DVD-A

about SACD and DVD-A

HiFi meets WiFi...

Thoughts....

The sad thing

money

Greed killing hi-fi

Who cares?

Totally unfair

Thank goodness

Who blames the iPod?

Everyone can hear the dif

Re: everyone can hear the

Re: Everyone can hear…

Hypocritical

Re: everyone can hear the

Right... They'll kill...

Man

you poncy gits

Login Here

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