Hey, people, calm down. This is a freakin' conference call for analysts and the like. He ain't going to be announcing anything new (why would he do that at a confernce call, he'd rather hold an event, wouldn't he?) like high recording 4G ipods for 25 cents and ITMS in all countries except the "axis of evil". He's just going to be saying "Hey, yeah, this has been great. One year, 80 million songs sold, iPod is great product. Wish our suppliers could keep us in parts so we could make more. Any questions. Great. See ya!"

BTW, OGG is never coming to the iPod. Its too 'iffy' in terms of IP and copyright infringement to make it to anything with a corporate label on it. First time someone with $$ supports it, they'll get sued by someone (just like the JPG users are now).

My post was ment to be a joke. Obviously some people don't understand that, so I'll make it plain here.

Regarding OGG, of course OGG is iffy with regard to copyright infringement. OGG is an open format- it isn't an industry b**** to lock down users into doing what the industry wants. This could, ehem, be one of the reasons it's so popular. BTW, the iPod supports MP3, which is ALSO iffy with regard to copyright infringement. Apple happily supports MP3, so why is OGG suddenly a problem? Maybe you would be happy if the next iTunes came out and no longer allowed you to rip to MP3, only to protected AAC? You would likely be pissed off. Just as users get pissed off if a company blames technicalities with IP as a reason for not supporting a feature they want.

Death by obscurity? Apple fear of music industry backlash against open source? I'll tell you right now, the music industry is not going to kill OGG, just as they were unable to kill MP3. Obviously the industry didn't hold sway enough to get MP3 support removed from the iPod or from iTunes. So what is the big deal? My guess is, apple just envokes the old "it's got to be easy to use" claim as an excuse not do do any work (to add OGG support.) They figure nobody knows about OGG, so they don't bother to support it. Which is entirely untrue.

BTW, obviously some companies support OGG, otherwise it wouldn't be in other MP3 players, which it is. There's no patent on OGG ("Ogg Vorbis is a completely open, patent-free, professional audio encoding and streaming technology with all the benefits of Open Source." from vorbis.com), so the risk is not even remotely the same risk as with JPEG (if you want to use that analogy.)

vorbis.com FAQ Question:

"Will you charge fees later, after Vorbis becomes popular?"

Answer: "The Vorbis format will always be free and in the public domain."

Additionally, "The Ogg Vorbis specification is in the public domain." and "Again, there are no licensing fees for any use of the Ogg Vorbis specification." So OGG will never come under the same scrutenty as JPEG, of which the originator had a patent, they told people they wouldn't envoke it, and then they later decided to envoke it. Vorbis has no patents over OGG.

Regarding OGG, of course OGG is iffy with regard to copyright infringement. OGG is an open format- it isn't an industry b**** to lock down users into doing what the industry wants. This could, ehem, be one of the reasons it's so popular.


Actually, it isn't THAT popular. Certainly not close to what MP3 is was.

BTW, the iPod supports MP3, which is ALSO iffy with regard to copyright infringement. Apple happily supports MP3, so why is OGG suddenly a problem? Maybe you would be happy if the next iTunes came out and no longer allowed you to rip to MP3, only to protected AAC? You would likely be pissed off. Just as users get pissed off if a company blames technicalities with IP as a reason for not supporting a feature they want.


Apparently you missed my point on copyright infringement. Its not that its infringing on the copyrights of music that you rip. Its a question whether its as patent and copyright free as all think (people using JPG thought the same thing until someone comes out of the closet and says "Wait, I have a patent on this, you all owe me money!"). GIF was also thought to be an 'open' standard until UNISYS decided they wanted a cut of some money. Just because the OGG Vorbis group says its patent is in the public domain doesn't mean they didn't take pieces (intentionally or unintentionally) from other sources.

So OGG will never come under the same scrutenty as JPEG, of which the originator had a patent, they told people they wouldn't envoke it, and then they later decided to envoke it. Vorbis has no patents over OGG.

Ummm, there was no warning or anything about the JPG patent. As was posted here earlier, the JPG group that defines the spec says its patent free and not infringing, and that was all well and good until someone comes up and says it is infringing.

Oh, and the music industry isn't so worried about MP3 format as you seem to think, because even if it didn't support MP3, it supports AAC, which is actually better (smaller sizes for same quality) and just as open to 'swapping', its only the DRM versions that's restricted. Anyway, if Apple had to lose MP3 to 'succumb to the RIAA', they'd have to lose AAC, WAV, and AIFF support, which means it would only support DRM'd versions of music, and no one would buy it, so Apple wouldn't do it.

OGG is popular? You still have an Amiga at home, don't you? ;)

Patents disputes (JPEG, GIF) can always happen at any time. Whether the disputed owner will win is another case (see SCO vs Linux). MP3 seems to be firmly in the hands of FHI so there should be no dispute at all regarding who owns that. OGG is placed in public domain by its creators. According to the best information we have today, it does not infringe any pre-existing patents and will always will be in the public domain.

"What parts of OGG it is lifted from somewhere else? What if one day it won't be?" Well, I hate to tell you that, without any thought or evidence to back up your statement, you are by definition espousing FUD - fear, uncertainty, and doubt.

outZider wrote: "OGG is popular?"

Well, seeing how 1) the market share of Linux users are increasing 2) their devotion to Linux is just as fervent as our devotion to OS X and 3) (virtually) no Linux users use AAC and not every Mac user rips to AAC, I would OGG may only be slightly less popular than AAC.

Well, seeing how 1) the market share of Linux users are increasing 2) their devotion to Linux is just as fervent as our devotion to OS X and 3) (virtually) no Linux users use AAC and not every Mac user rips to AAC, I would OGG may only be slightly less popular than AAC.

No offense, but saying its a tad less popular than AAC is like saying Soccer is a tad less popular than hockey in the US.

No offense taken, LouZer.

I hate myths, FUD, and distortion as anyone here and if you can show that I am wrong, more power to you and I stand corrected. So, please refute my statement with adoption of AAC as a format (excl sales from iTunes, of course) versus that of OGG.

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Well, of course you cannot. Neither can I beside offering my hypothesis on their popularity based on facts (incr. # of Linux users, their devotion to Linux, and not all Mac users rip to AAC).

However, your using another metaphor to describe this OGG/AAC situation is just weak. Soccer is the most popular sports in the world, is OGG the most popular codec in the world? How you even find AAC analogous to hockey and OOG to soccer is beyond me.

But, more on hockey and soccer.

Let's just say you are correct in identifying OGG with soccer and AAC as hockey. I would love to see some evidence of hockey's popularity versus that of soccer's in the US. Or at least see some chain of logic that led you to your conclusion. Of course, you offer none.

I Googled for some data related to this, I see NHL pulls in the same 1.x Nielsen ratings as MLS. I see many editorials lamenting the decreasing popularity of hockey. I see the soccer is the quickest growing segment of sports played by our youths. Soccer is played around the country; hockey in limited areas. So is hockey less popular (or MUCH less popular as you implied) than soccer? I do not think so. That alone defeats your comparison by metaphor.

Thanks a lot for wasting my time to educate you on how to formulate an argument. :)